Cetaceans use most of their cortex for sonar and have a proportionally smaller and less organized frontal lobe than apes, hence their relatively primitive and sparse tool use (orcas can not even be encouraged to use tools)

Dogs still mog cats pretty hard tho
https://amp.theguardian.com/science/2009/jun/16/psychologist-test-outsmarts-cats
https://www.businessinsider.com/border-collie-understands-english-grammar-2013-5

what's the point in having more neurons if that makes you a slave to another species?

>>4922730
If you say it was a success then I’d hate to see your idea of a failure

>>4922738
It hit over 300 replies in roughly a week, which is almost unheard of for an /an/ thread

>>4917447

>>4922741
Yeah but tool use redefinition schizo is currently struggling against several rangebans

>>4922736
Orcas don't have the mouth or appendages which would encourage tool use. The "bottlenose" mouth of bottlenose dolphins is much better for holding objects like sponges than an orca mouth is.

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>>4922737
Well cats have fewer neurons than dogs and are much dumber, and yet are slaves all the same
Horses are smarter than both and transitioned from the biggest slaves to pure recreational companion animals

No correlation

>>4922741
>which is almost unheard of for an /an/ thread
Not really. That’s pretty typical of any thread with schizos arguing over pointless shit. Any dinosaur thread over the last couple years did the same

>>4922751
>schizos arguing over pointless shit

4chan in a nutshell.

>>4922741
300 replies in a week and still nobody was able to explain why it matters if your favorite animal is retarded. turns out it's a pointless endless NPC argument after all.

>>4922820
It only matters to cat owners, for some reason.

I bet people who own rabbits, fish, guinea pigs, and hedgehogs won't care that their pets are less intelligent than dogs and horses.

>>4922822
All the cat owners I've known call their cats dumbass, retard, etc and adore the stupid shit they do.
Do you mean the strawmen on reddit that you obsess about?

>>4922826
Catfags are deranged. It's why feral cats are never culled no matter how much evidence there is that they cause harm to ecosystems. It's why the EU won't place feral cats on their list of invasive species despite them being among the most destructive invasives. It's not a "straw man" when there are many real world examples of the harm these people and their pets cause.

>>4922834
So are packs of stray dogs the result of deranged "dogfags"?

>>4922902
>I was never banned...
Then why do you bitch about getting banned so much

>>4922743
>tool use redefinition schizo is currently struggling against several rangebans
you're talking to 2 different anons, neither of which is banned, let alone rangebanned

>>4922904
>Then why do you bitch about getting banned so much
I simply notice that I get banned every time I talk to you

presumably because you report me repeatedly from multiple connections.

not that it matters because you can't or won't rangeban me. As I found out.

>>4922904
also I don't care if I get banned

I'm just very worried about a board that bans me and NOT YOU.

you're shit. You're killing the board

if anyone needs to be banned it's certainly you

but you can't be banned, huh?
why would mods ban their own janny?

>>4922973
Off topic ragebait bullshit just like all of your posts

>>4922978
>how is it ragebait?
how is it relevant to the thread?

OP's goal is to start a cat/dog war and whether you're him or not, you're doing exactly what he wants.

>>4922982
>I'll just hide the consolewar and animal gore posts from this person from now on.
you'll soon find most of the posts on this board are the same person and the ones that aren't him are you or me.

>>4922990
Yes, I've always disliked how nature watchers will shrug when an antelope or wildebeest or zebra or buffalo dies the most gruesome and painful death at the hands of a lion, but then suddenly get emotional when a cheetah gets killed by a crocodile.

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how many neurons does sage have?

>>4922990
something about their horn design and beard makes them look intelligent, like a wizened sage

>>4922983
delusional narcissism. derail this pointless thread with your graphs again.

>>4923093
How can anyone listen to this poor duiker cry for help and feel nothing? I need to rewatch that video of a cheetah getting death rolled by a crocodile after this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyAw95GHxUc

>>4922744
>Orcas don't have the mouth or appendages which would encourage tool use
Sucks to suck.

>>4922730
Are elephants really that smart if they can't even identify their own offspring?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WTpqoE3lBs

>The mother elephant refused to accept the baby elephant because of the smell of humans coming from the baby elephant's body and started beating the baby very badly. This is a very unfortunate incident. Later, the wildlife officials rescued the calf and handed it over to the Udawalawe elephant orphanage.

>>4923271
Sounds like a bullshit caption. Elephants don’t just reject their babies because a human touched it, even much dumber animals don’t often do that

>>4923277
>Most mammals actually use smell
I am aware. Most animals do not reject their offspring based on smell just because a human touched it, especially not elephants. Plenty of instances of people rescuing baby elephants in a manner that requires hands on contact and the mother has no issues accepting the baby afterwards. Sheep and horses don’t reject their young even when farmers handle them for tagging or whatever, the smell of the human contact doesn’t overpower the smell of the infant itself

>>4923271
The elephant tried to commit infanticide because of stress. Humans do this all the time. Raising an infant in a subpar environment is costlier than starting over later.

>>4923383
>The elephant tried to commit infanticide because of stress. Humans do this all the time.

They do?

>>4923476
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

>>4923481
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_termination_of_pregnancy

Aborting a fetus (and aborting late-term fetuses is rare anyway) isn't the same as killing an infant that has already been born.

>>4923604
Of course it's the same. Why do you want it to be different? Because you have a problem with killing infants but not "fetuses" (as long as you make the definition of fetus)?

You people are always like this

>>4923619
a fetus is a lower lifeform than an infant

>>4923830
Cat gore spammer is a catfag. He’s what happens when watching mice die stops giving sadists boners.

Just like the reptile fags that end up feeding their carnivorous toads to their snakes really

>>4922730
Interesting how this very clearly proves that cortical neurons are not that important to intelligence, despite I HECKING LOVE SOIENCE redditors holding the contrary up as holy writ.

>>4923850
cats are, regardless, significantly less intelligent than dogs so it holds true for similar mammals once you take body size into account

ie: a pig really is smarter than a golden retriever, but dumber than a german shepherd. there is no housecat that is smarter than any dog. humans are smarter than all other great apes. sea otters are way smarter than most non-primates.

it only gets fucked when you add in birds and sonar using animals

>>4923860
Cetaceans do, for animals, but less so than primates with fewer cortical neurons. Cetaceans demonstrate less behavioral complexity than say, orangutans, are definitely retards compared to us, and might not be that much higher than sea otters. This is supported further by proportionally smaller and less organized frontal lobes.

Neuron counting works great if you are comparing two four legged carnivorans with the same senses. It doesnt work great if you are comparing a crow, a whale, and a chimp.

>>4923844
>Just like the reptile fags that end up feeding their carnivorous toads to their snakes really
Nobody outside of thirdie deathmatch youtubers does this

>>4923870
0 google results except for optimistic dolphin fuckers misinterpreting vocalizations as linguistic instructions.

The puzzle? Pulling on two pieces of rope simultaneously. A feat WOLVES achieve effortlessly. Yeah totally language there bud.
Come back when you have videos of dolphins doing this
https://youtube.com/watch?v=tCZEe5hPPyc
Or this
https://youtube.com/watch?v=o2TBicMRLtA
https://www.wellbeingintlstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1132&context=acwp_asie
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4657493/

I have a feeling cetacean intelligence claims, with their massive leaps of logic (they make noise->they are talking. you can find “codas” in the vocalizations of zeuss the youtube husky ffs.) is either manifested by anti-aquarium activism or a desire to legalize having sex with wild dolphins

>>4923874
Yeah, this is not language. You do not know the content of dolphin sonar but its doubtful they do anything more than beg for attention. Higher thought is not needed to synchronize behavior, especially not if an animal has the mysterious paralimbic system, which could have evolved entirely for non-conscious synchronization.

>>4923881
dolphin researchers be like
>animal 1 makes noise
>animal 2 makes noise
>animal 2 does whatever animal 1 is doing after that
>GUYS THEY HAD A CONVERSATION oh wait its a wolf pack never mind they only have sex once a year so they’re not worth it
>did you know dolphin clitorises are totally special and that means they have sex just like us? hint hint

>>4923888
One dolphin had to come up with a novel display. Nothing here required language or a conversation. Just a very efficient framework for empathy that takes the thought out of follow the leader.

>>4923890
Paralimbic system does it again

Only one orca needs to think here. They do not need to be conscious of fluid dynamics or talk to each other. They just need the pod leader to know that swimming under ice rocks it, so they all do what it does. They just synchronize more efficiently because they evolved to do so without conscious thought. You will never see them modify tools or untangle nets.

>>4923897
Have you noticed these retarded fish can’t even get their friends out of a tuna net or dodge a propeller

>>4922747
>and yet are slaves all the same
lol

>>4923904
>he’s worse at training cats than this guy
https://youtube.com/watch?v=5A2dd13ntMo
Or how about this
https://youtube.com/watch?v=Um75PsMzqf0
cats are super easy to train. they just dont have that negotiating and interpreting intelligence that forgives mistakes so you need to follow the rules and treat it more like programming. They’re not going to guess what you want. They can’t.

>>4923910
Yeah, not a lot of brain is needed to teach tricks. If anything it gets in the way which is why all the obedient dog breeds are neurotic crackheads and all the tolerable ones aren’t obedient.

>>4923888
>cat: error. undefined input. see man operant (8) for details.
>dog: yes ma- WHERES THE FUCKING TREAT? YOU LIE
>dog, herding: Yes massa please do it again i need to do it again again again again again again again again
>dolphin: yes massa eeeeeeekekekeke handjob later right?
>chimp: surprise YOU? if you disrespect my clearly superior position like this i will teach you what it means to be my lesser. if you find any of what is to come surprising, i weep for your stupidity. now, once more, bring me an infant as tribute, you overgrown gibbon.

>>4923893
>You will never see them modify tools or untangle nets
Only because they have no reason to do so. If captive orcas are smart enough to use bait and wild orcas are smart enough to intentionally beach themselves in order to catch prey (something that goes against all their instincts) or go out of their way to alert human whalers when prey is near and assist them then they would probably be smart enough to use tools if they ever had a need to

>>4923911
That is not how it works.

A lot of the very intelligent dog species were bred to do something like control a herd of sheep, plan, and adjust according to minimal human communication. Every day. They went to work and had a job that required thought energy and coordination.
They needed intelligence and energy.
These attributes are the worst for an animal staying inside or in a small yard while people are away at work or doing thier own thing on electronics or whatever most of the time.
You are not going to give them a job, so they are going to overthink the little going on in thier life and become nuerotic.
This high intelligence understimulated gives them mental illness and makes them nuerotic nuts.
They become mentaly deranged from most owners modern lifestyles.
Meanwhile the low energy much dumber dog does not need all that stimulation, and becomes less mentaly ill. They can be alone half the day, then be content just walking or playing and cuddling.
Highly intelligent animals are the least suited to most owners and go insane. Dumb ones take more neglect before they go insane. So you are just seeing sane vs insane.

>>4923922
They just have OCD. Intelligence varies as much within most breeds as between them. Your average herding dog is nothing more than mentally ill and performing an ancestral hunting activity. In real intelligence tests they get mogged by wolves that cant be trained half as much as housecats.

I have personally observed german shepherds getting stuck in corners and behind cracked doors. They obey commands immediately without fail, but they don’t need any actual intelligence.


>>4923921
>dolphins dont have to get out of tuna nets!
Lol.

>>4923927
>dolphins dont have to get out of tuna nets!
What a retarded statement. Put a 6 year old in an industrial fishing net and see how well they can free themselves

>>4923922
>intelligent dog species
Reddit at it with the oxymorons again

>>4923932
Dogs are much more intelligent than most other mammals

>>4924001
>Wolves are considered smart because of their hunting tactics among other things

Cooperative hunting requires less brainpower than previously thought.

>Through the use of artificial intelligence technology, a team of scientists has shown that advanced cognitive abilities are unnecessary for cooperative hunting. Their findings suggest that cooperative hunting, previously thought to be a complex social behavior seen primarily in mammals such as lions and chimpanzees, can also develop in species with lower levels of cognitive ability.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2024/05/240520122823.htm

>>4924014
>if we program a computer to do something, it doesnt require intelligence
Someone is hungry for grant money

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>>4924001
figure that out and you'll resurrect ethology as a science.

but you'll be a few years behind me.

Here's what I've got for how to test for conscious planning-
1. The problem is observed and then a NOVEL solution is found
2. Building or choosing a NOVEL tool is proof of conscious planning
3. Hunting or cooperating in a NOVEL way is proof of conscious planning
4. Observing a problem and trying several NOVEL methods of solving it is proof of conscious planning, even if the attempts fail
5. Observing the NOVEL conscious behavior of others and then attempting it in an appropriate setting is proof of conscious planning

the solutions must be NOVEL to rule out conditioning or instinct. Any one of those behaviors is sufficient to demonstrate consciousness, they aren't exclusionary or all necessary.

as to the mechanism, exactly where in the evolutionary process conscious planning arose, I'm keeping that to myself until I publish. I have an idea. It's not hard to figure out. Oddly enough dreaming is probably the key but dreams are impossible to watch in other creatures. But dreams manipulate sense and memory, which is necessary to NOVEL planning.

this isn't a new idea, that part has already been published. Exactly where in the evolution we go from dreaming during sleep to imagination while waking is the part I don't share with /an/
also how to test for that change. That's my NOVEL bit of speculation, and I keep it under my hat. But it's not a new idea, several papers on the topic already exist.

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>>4923893
>>4923890
>>4923887
>>4923881
All of this behavior has been documented in crocodiles as well even though crocs aren't studied nearly as much because they're too dangerous.

>Crocodiles use a variety of calls, growls, and grumbles to communicate with each other. For example, juveniles use a specific call to ask for help from adults.

>Crocodiles can recognize their own names and respond to them. They can also learn the routines of their prey and ambush them later.

>Crocodiles are the only reptiles with a developed cerebral cortex, which has helped them adapt for millions of years

>Crocodiles exhibit advanced parental care.

>Crocodiles use tools to hunt and disguise themselves. For example, they balance twigs on their snouts to look like they're floating on the water, luring birds into danger.

>Crocodiles and alligators were observed conducting highly organized game drives. For example, crocodiles would swim in a circle around a shoal of fish, gradually making the circle tighter until the fish were forced into a tight "bait ball." Then the crocodiles would take turns cutting across the center of the circle, snatching the fish.

> In one case, a huge saltwater crocodile scared a pig into running off a trail and into a lagoon where two smaller crocodiles were waiting in ambush—the circumstances suggested that the three crocodiles had anticipated each other's positions and actions without being able to see each other.

https://phys.org/news/2014-10-crocodiles-sophisticated-hunters.html

>>4924038
I’ll believe crocodiles are anywhere near the same level as orcas when they can learn to hunt cooperatively with humans despite never being domesticated or trained

>>4924032
Heres how i tell if an animal has an inner world

I give them something nice
When they are distracted i take it
If they are conscious this happens
>they look for it
>they make a funny face
>they start looking for which fucking monkey just robbed them

As you can see, or, as you could if you had half a brain, I am significantly more intelligent than you.

>>4922730
Wait otters are that smart lel

>>4924048
>I’ll believe crocodiles are anywhere near the same level as orcas when they can learn to hunt cooperatively with humans

Why would they do that? Crocodiles are among the efficient predators to ever exist.

Sociality is highly overrated when it comes to intelligence. Orangutans are highly intelligent but are relatively solitary except for females rearing their offspring, which is the norm among mammals.

>>4924032
>>4924050
mogged

brevity wins again

>>4924038
Crocodiles are archosaurs, which means they're more related to birds and dinosaurs than other reptiles

>>4923037
249,830,001

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>>4924050
Good one, I like it. It also would test for object permanence. Which is probably unique to conscious animals.

My tests aren't the ONLY tests, just the ones I've come up with so far.

>I am significantly more intelligent than you.
maybe, but you just gave me your idea for free and I plan on selling it. That's also intelligence.
>>4924055
>brevity wins again
There's nothing to win, you dope.

>>4924057
Yep, but I expect as we get closer to strong AI we're going to learn a lot more about the evolution of animal consciousness. How machines become conscious is probably going to be very similar to how most animals did it.
Unlike OP I doubt it's just a simple matter of the number of connections. Adaptability in birds nests and spider webs is pushing the edge of conscious thought, and if spiders are conscious at any level OP's idea is going to be tossed out the window. Most ethologists are already discounting it.

the other tech angle is simulating entire brains. We've simulated a worm, and hacked cockroaches. It's just a matter of time before we're simulating more conscious minds and reverse engineering what they're doing and how they got there.

>>4924086
Ethologists can say whatever but cats are definitively the intellectual inferiors of dogs and the neurons are just icing on the cake that just got thrown in the face of a century of people that used the reversed relationship to justify abusing dogs while treating cats like cherished visitors

>>4924086
>if spiders are conscious at any level OP's idea is going to be tossed out the window. Most ethologists are already discounting it.
the simple fact that spiders dream is probably enough to blow OP right out of the water.

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>>4924088
Yes, I know you don't give a flying fuck about animal cognition and just want to start another console war.

but sometimes some of the anons in your bait threads say useful stuff. Crocodile anon up there is always helpful, as are a few others.

I personally don't give a fuck about your console wars, and am intensely interested in the evolution of animal thought.

>>4924092
>in *your* bait threads
Gottem. I love it when schizos start assuming and writing 4chanfiction. This is the art of trolling, 2025 edition.

>>4924093
You should write a book on it for real.

Most of your techniques are stuff me and lots of other people came up with, but as I said

it doesn't have to be your idea for you to make money off it.

>its double spacing narcissist schizo again

>>4924098
you must be new here.

anyways, if a spider, which lacks a forebrain entirely and doesn't have a brain at all by most definitions,
can pass some tests for consciousness,

then forebrain neuron counts mean exactly shit.
A point that more and more ethologists are making lately.

>>4924099
Alternatively you misdefined consciousness, or it does mean shit for processing speed and capability hence dogs are smarter than cats and pigs are smarter than many dogs

>>4924098
>>4924099
or we can just look at octopuses
they also lack a brain by standard definitions,

and are pretty clearly conscious.

>>4924101
>Alternatively you misdefined consciousness,
Yes, the finding depends on the definition.
something nobody here is equipped to discuss though I'd love to hear what other anons think consciousness is.
>or it does mean shit for processing speed and capability
generally fewer neuronal connections process faster.

though in all cases consciousness acts in the future, another problem you don't seem to be aware of or care about. Animals act based on a future that hasn't even happened yet, and they generally succeed in their actions.
Consciousness predicts.

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>>4924105
>Consciousness predicts.
the difference is how far ahead it predicts

almost all animals make predictions every time they move. All motile animals act milliseconds into the future. Some act seconds into the future, some minutes, some hours, some days, some years, and at least one animal is capable of acting generations into the future.

where we cross from automatic prediction to variable and then to strategic is the actual question. And that's a question that's being refined while retards on /an/ are arguing about which is better, cats or dogs.

>>4924105
>he doesnt know non-conscious models can predict novel problems
Lmao

Also all your self important ranting was already covered earlier. Forebrain neurons, when the gap is dramatic, are a decent proxy among similar animals, like humans and chimps and dogs and cats. Even adding a new sense invalidates it. Moving to another branch of life does too because a brain isn’t the only possible data processing organ. You are rambling for no reason.

>>4924111
>You are rambling for no reason.
that you know of.

I say something and listen to (You) criticize it. I then consider your criticisms and either refine my model or don't.

Forebrain neurons are the ONLY proxy we have
there is literally no other method of comparing animal intelligence than encephalization v body mass ratios

that doesn't mean they work. It only means there's no other method.

>>4924111
>he doesnt know non-conscious models can predict novel problems
I am well aware, but I don't know of any examples in nature. Can you think of any?

lots of non-conscious animals deal with novel problems, but they don't PREDICT them.

>>4924111
>Forebrain neurons, when the gap is dramatic, are a decent proxy among similar animals, like humans and chimps and dogs and cats.
I believe the average human is roughly on a par with the smartest chimps. YMMV

dogs and cats are equally variable with significant overlap. Both use tools and learn by observation. Both seem to pass the mirror test pretty often. The primary difference is apparently biddability as well as dogs specifically evolving to communicate with humans. Both are highly intelligent animals.

>>4924113
>lots of non-conscious animals deal with novel problems, but they don't PREDICT them.

at the risk of saying too much, because nobody here realizes what I'm saying anyways-

there's a difference between a set of instincts (programming) evolved to deal with a set of novel problems,

and a brain that can deal with novel problems by consciously understanding them

these are 2 of several distinct steps in the evolution of animal consciousness. Molecules deal with novel problems. Cells deal with novel problems. Neurons deal with novel problems, and minds deal with novel problems. Finally cultures deal with novel problems.

each step has a slightly different mechanism, and each step is just a refinement of previous steps. And each step fails to replace previous steps. But by breaking them down a progression becomes obvious.

>>4924123
>each step fails to replace previous steps.
Just because my culture is trying to solve future problems doesn't stop my mind, my nerves, my cells, and my molecules from each dealing with problems in the ways they evolved to do.

but clearly I am conscious of what my mind and to some extent my culture are doing while my nerves, cells, and molecules continue to act without any awareness.
at some point in the progression, awareness was breached. How and why that happens is the mystery neurology is dealing with, but computers are likely to solve before looking at animals can.

>>4924125
>computers are likely to solve before looking at animals can.
though ethology and computer science are in a feedback loop. Studying animals informs computer programming, and studying computer learning informs ethology.

both have the same goal, and consciousness is a biological phenomenon even if it's simulated on a machine.

>>4924126
>consciousness is a biological phenomenon even if it's simulated on a machine.
and this is the future problem that needs to be predicted:

animals evolved cognition and consciousness for the PURPOSE of dealing with novel problems in nature.

a need no computer shares. And organs without need tend to atrophy. Or simply end.

>>4924129
in an attempt to end teleology we'll likely just see teleology end the attempt. The purpose of consciousness isn't itself. Or to find god. Or to learn anything or enjoy anything.

once the biological pressures are removed, animal cognition and consciousness has no purpose.

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>>4924130
anyways, slumgullion again for simplicity's sake. Tagged for archive search. Anon's idea about taking the toy away is worth another look.

whether dogs are "superior" to cats (whatever that means) doesn't matter. And OP is painfully childish. But he does invite some interesting discussions about crocodile tool use and spider dreams.

>>4924131
>spider dreams.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/spiders-seem-to-have-rem-like-sleep-and-may-even-dream1/

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>>4924132
dreaming is the path to conscious thought. Its actual purpose is debated, but the results seem explanatory. Perhaps a just-so story, but a good one.

>>4924132
>There is abundant evidence for REM sleep or an analogous state in many mammals and birds. Scientists have also found something similar in two reptile species and hints of a state like it in zebra fish. Both octopuses and cuttlefish appear to have an REM phase, complete with eye movements, arm twitches, and rapid skin color and texture changes that resemble displays they perform when awake. Beyond those animals, there are glimmers but not much evidence of REM sleep in invertebrates, including insects and arachnids.

>>4924135
when an animal dreams you have to ask,

WHO is dreaming? Who is seeing the dream?

>>4924136
a dream is an abstraction of remembered sensory information into a singular cognitive construct that could be internally manipulated for the purpose of prediction.

this is roughly the same thing as consciousness.

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>>4924137
the proposed difference is that humans can invoke a lucid dream state when awake (imagination).

however that ignores the fact that when a spider or an octopus dreams, SOMEONE is dreaming. A mind is dreaming. And a mind that dreams when asleep is a mind that experiences when awake.

>>4924116
>dog supremacy doubters place humans on par with chimps
From zoophilia admissions to this, team cat has shit optics

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>>4924139
>a mind that dreams when asleep is a mind that experiences when awake.
both cats and dogs dream. This is a known fact to anyone that has owned them.

which is "better" is a stupid argument, and the idea that one should be killed to prevent its suffering is just trolling. Both are intelligent conscious beings deserving of respect and love. Both are beautifully evolved for what they do. It would be fun if OP saw the magnificence of nature for what it is but I suppose baiting people with hate is much easier and more effective.

it's also lazy and cruel. But OP is nothing if not lazy and cruel. And that also is beautiful in the way that all nature is. Even the ugly parts are beautiful when you understand them.

>>4924142
someday I'll timestamp you a pic of my dogs AND cat so you can eat shit. Right now they're dreaming.

>>4924143
Dogs betterness manifests with greater needs
Cats inferiority manifests with lesser needs

You can keep a cat 100% indoors in a studio apartment and it will be happy. A dog would destroy the place. Letting it out due to misplaced admiration for its absent intelligence would end its life swiftly.

>>4924146
>betterness
kek

it's a stupid person. No different from a chimp.

>>4924146
>macaroni is BETTER than apples and let me tell you why!!
>Let me tell you why hundreds of times per day every day for years on end!

illness on full display.

>>4924148
Team Macaroni wins!

Team Apples eternally mogged!

kek

anon is without.
And he doesn't even seem smart enough to understand what he's missing.

some people like dogs, cats, rats, snakes, fish, AND plants. It's crazy. No accounting for taste.

>>4924149
>some people like dogs, cats, rats, snakes, fish, AND plants.
though usually they're poor people. Pet hoarding is sorta povvo behavior.
But being poor teaches what really matters in life. And taking care of a pet or 12 is a worthy enough task for full hearts and poor tables.

>>4924152
on the other hand, the sort of person that would kill a cat or fuck a dog probably needs to be locked up.

who knows what they'd do to a human in their care?

>>4924152
You can like them all without owning them all

>>4924162
Yep, but it's weird to hate one whether you've owned it or not. Be like hating mexico because you loved hawaii. You can like more than one thing.

normal people can anyways.

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>>4924162
>>4924165
even if I did hate one of them,
I wouldn't look down on other people for liking them

because I'm a grown-ass adult and I understand different people like different things and that doesn't make them better or worse than me.

how weak is your personality if you can't tolerate someone liking something you don't like? That's pathetic. OP is pathetic.

or maybe he's just pretending to be pathetic, and that's pathetic too.

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>>4924166
>or maybe he's just pretending to be pathetic, and that's pathetic too.
But that's probably not true.

the apologetics
>I post hundreds of times per day every day of every week of every month without taking a single day off
>lolol I trolled you!!!
runs a bit thin after the first year and gets really suspicious after a decade or so

it ceases to look like trolling and looks a lot like a diagnosable problem.

but not MY problem, as I am not OP's family or doctor. He's someone else's problem, thank god.

either way, whether dogs or cats are more intelligent says nothing about which is "Better."
That's retard thinking.
Apples and macaroni.

go team!

>>4924167
>That's retard thinking.
not that being a retard is "worse" than being normal.

it's just fine to be a retard, just like it's fine to own cats. Or dogs. Or whatever.

no judgements. OP is free to be retarded and people are free to own whatever pets they like.
It's all good.

>>4924168
though I will admit I don't have time to take care of a retard. If my cat or dogs was as dumb as OP I'd put them up for adoption.

>>4924169
>If my cat or dogs was as dumb as OP I'd put them up for adoption.
this is essentially why I don't own ferrets anymore.

love the shit out of them but they're almost as dumb and smelly as OP. I just don't have the time for an animal so goddamn beefheaded.

>>4924171
again,
No disrespect for people that raise ferrets or retards

I just don't have your energy any more.

>>4924173
If I could've trained my ferrets to spend all day trolling /an/ they'd have been a lot easier to take care of.

and that probably explains a bit about OP and me.

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>>4924178
>You guys are awfully quiet in there
>whatcha doing you fuzzy little bastards?

>trolling /an/

>ok carry on then.
>I'll be in to clean your litter in an hour

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>>4924180
>OP's caretaker for the last 13 years

>look ma, I posted another cat vs dog thread!
>You're such a good boy!
>now shut up and let mommy get some rest

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>>4924181
what evils would OP or I get up to if we didn't have /an/ to occupy our every waking moment?

ask cats.
or ferrets.
or dogs.

any dumb animal really
thank god for chew toys.

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>>4924182
anyways, sweet dreams my dumb animals.
No matter how few working neurons you possess.

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>>4924038
Archosaur gang reporting in

>>4924227
Imagine an animal with the brains of a parrot or corvid and the apex predator build of a saltwater crocodile

>>4924227
>dinosaurs
>birds
>crocodilians

Yeah, this is the ultimate dream team.

>>4924338
for 12 year olds
1 guy and a dog would wipe them out and enslave their descendants with nothing more than a rock launching device

>>4924358
Oops that guy and dog never evolved because mammals couldn’t compete. Rip

>>4924086
>but you just gave me your idea for free and I plan on selling it
>There's nothing to win, you dope
An actually embarassing post. Why would you do this to yourself?

Isn’t encephalization quotient a better measure of intelligence anyway? Larger animals tend to have larger portions of their brain dedicated to unconscious regulation like digestion, so comparing brain size directly isn’t a great measure.

>the schizophrenic predditor is replying to itself again

>>4924386
No.

> Other studies found that absolute brain size (or absolute size of the cerebral cortex) across primates is a much better correlate of task performance than encephalization quotient (Deaner et al., 2007; MacLean et al., 2014). Given that larger primate brains are composed of increasing numbers of neurons (Herculano-Houzel et al., 2007; Gabi et al., 2010), improved performance thus correlates with increased numbers of neurons across species, and possibly across clades as well. Indeed, small-brained corvids show similar performance to much larger-brained primates (Kabadayi et al., 2016), which can be explained by their similarly large numbers of pallial neurons despite the difference in brain size (Herculano-Houzel, 2017). It is thus likely that the larger the number of neurons found in the cerebral cortex of a carnivoran, the more cognitively capable the species is.

>>4924389
A bunch of pro-cetacean posts in this thread got nuked. They weren't schizo posts or violating the rules so not sure what happened.

>>4924391
The guy complaining about cat gore was also posting it. You were probably already told that the console wars are manufactured by an actual crazy zoosadist though.

Despite all these timers and captchas he cant be kicked out without an account system that blacklists burner emails and has shadow banning support, and he’s been here for years. Over ten of them. I don’t think he even has a concrete identity anymore.

>>4924358
Dogs get gobbled up by crocodiles in roughly 10 seconds

>>4924414
>The guy complaining about cat gore was also posting it.
weird the supposed cat gore he posted doesn't show up in archives even if you search deleted posts and look through every deleted thread.

>he’s been here for years. Over ten of them. I don’t think he even has a concrete identity anymore.
irony

but anyways what he actually got banned for is visible in the archives.

>>4924505
>but anyways what he actually got banned for is visible in the archives.

What was it?

>>4924734
from the looks of it he was complaining about moderation.
Mods are Gods

>>4924505
>weird the supposed cat gore he posted doesn't show up in archives even if you search deleted posts and look through every deleted thread.
That happened like a week ago, some butt humper made like 10 different low quality cat threads and some other butt humper replied to them all with videos of cats being killed by raptors. It honestly could have been one guy samefagging his own threads for all i know, but it happened.

>>4924813
I saw those but that's not why anon got b& last night I'm pretty sure.

none of his posts were cat hate. In fact he was raging against the cat haters. Which is stupid because he's been told repeatedly that hating cats isn't against the rules here.

It would be weird if /an/ started banning console war posts after 13 years of allowing them. If he doesn't like them, I'd humbly suggest ignoring them.

>>4922730
did all brown bears stick their heads in an airport xray machine?

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>>4924358

>>4924227
new buddy comedy

Herons/egrets are vicious btw

https://youtu.be/naElLC53tVs?si=LeDYraOZBfIapTH5

One person got banned for posting a picture of dogs ripping off the faces of sheep.

>>4925515
and just like that /an/ got a lot more light hearted, arguments go nowhere after 20 minutes, and thread creation slowed the fuck down. guess he’a struggling to find working proxies.

>>4925529
interesting head cannon, but proxies don't work on 4chan. I wonder what else you're dead wrong about?

>>4925571
>proxies dont work on 4chan
Better to let you keep believing that

>>4925591
why would anyone pay for a VPN when you can change your IP in seconds flat for free?

I learned to evade bans from the schizo here, I can guarantee you he's not "struggling to find working proxies." Nobody is.

>>4925601
Static IPs exist and so do rangebans.

>>4925612
somehow I don't think either one applies to our 14 year long console war guy,
someone who's been here every day for that long probably works here. Assuming it's been the same person all that time.

>>4922730
If orcas are so smart why haven't they built their society the ways humans have?

>>4925638
>he still believes in le 14 years running console guy
It is a string of people who can number over a dozen at a time. Not liking cats, and making fun of the cringy oversensitive "omg cats r gods and i hate dogs!!!" fanboys they attract is way more common than you think. When you overreact to cat dumb with screeching about schizophrenic conspiracies and how you hate dogs you’re the one signaling to the trolls that they struck gold. Yes, trolls. Plural.

Making fun of cats and cat people is nowhere near same guy forever territory. The guy who gets furious about people not giving their cats weed is probably one person. The guy who is constantly trying to get rid of /dog/ is probably one person. These are really specific and weird, and had humanlike timelines like a few months to 4 years on and off not 14 fucking years straight, that’s why its reasonable to believe that.

Not thinking cats are the greatest and trolling cat fanboys is as generic as it comes.

I totally believe just one schizo played both sides of the console war at once because he got IP wiped for posting bestiality in /dog/. I don’t believe every dogs dumb/cats dumb post is him. That specific retard was probably only here a year or two and maybe someone copied him later. See? Be sane like that.

>>4924171
>>4924173
>>4924178
>>4924180
>>4924181
>>4924182
Why do people on this board reddit space? Go back already ffs

>>4926732
the toxo meme isn't true. The only way anyone would pick up on that head cannon is either by lurking /an/ or being the same wrong poster for 14 years straight.

>>4926736
the idea of reddit spacing is itself a joke to sus out newfags like you that don't understand it.

>>4923878
>I have a feeling cetacean intelligence claims, with their massive leaps of logic (they make noise->they are talking. you can find “codas” in the vocalizations of zeuss the youtube husky ffs

Yeah, this is very sus to me. Same for when humans claim that animals are "mourning" when they physically interact with dead conspecifics.

>>4927818
The dolphin clitoris claims in pop sci rags activated the red pill for me
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/dolphin-female-clitoris-sexual-anatomy
Every single female animal experiences sexual predator. They do not mate because they planned to have offspring later. They engage in mating because of sensory cues and continue mating because it feels good. It is absolutely not news that an animal experiences sexual pleasure. Having a more masculine clitoris with some typical penis features is a biological accident.

Unless you’re a dolphin fucker slowly building up the official scientific citations for when you finally challenge bestiality laws.

All of the wild claims about dolphins having language and being literally people instead of maybe as smart as some apes suddenly sound different.

>>4926727
they are too smart to build a society where they are perpetually unhappy

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>>4927822
Are you familiar with Margaret Howe Lovatt?

>In the mid-1960s, Margaret Howe Lovatt was tasked with training and observing dolphins on St. Thomas. Over the years, she developed an intimate relationship with a dolphin named Peter.

>Sagan belonged to a secretive group called “The Order of the Dolphin” — which, despite its name, focused on searching for extraterrestrial intelligence.

>Also in the group was the eccentric neuroscientist Dr. John Lilly. His 1961 quasi-sci-fi book Man and Dolphin highlighted the theory that dolphins wanted to (and likely could) communicate with humans. Lilly’s writings sparked a scientific interest in interspecies communication that set in motion an experiment that went a bit awry with a young woman named Margaret Lovatt.

BTW anti-captivity "activists" like Ric Barry cite the dolphin's death as a result of this bizarre experiment as an example of "dolphin suicide" and clear proof that dolphins don't belong in captivity despite all the obvious confounding variables in this particular case lol

https://allthatsinteresting.com/margaret-howe-lovatt

>>4923878
>>4927833
>>4927822
The more I look into cetacean intelligence, the more the cracks start showing.

Eg, proponents used to claim that cetaceans along with great apes and elephants had Von Economo neurons (VENs), and these neurons were responsible for higher cognitive abilities.

But then later research showed that VENs are found in a wide array of mammals and aren't as special as initially thought:

>Moreover, as VENs are found in many more species than initially thought, the interpretation of their evolutionary significance has changed from “the neurons that make us human” to a much broader interpretation. VENs are currently conceptualized as part of taxon-specific specialized networks, the functional significance of which depends on their cortical distribution (Butti and Hof, 2010; Butti et al., 2011).

>VENs have also been found in a number of artiodactyl and perissodactyl species, including the pygmy hippopotamus, Nile hippopotamus, domesticated pig (Sus scrofa domesticus), sheep (Ovis aries), cow (Bos taurus), white-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus), horse (Equus ferus caballus), common zebra (Equus burchellii), and black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis) (Butti and Hof, 2010; Butti et al., 2011; Raghanti et al., 2015). VENs were also present in both the African and Asian elephants but were restricted to the anterior cingulate cortex of the Asian elephant and the anterior insula, frontal pole, and dorsolateral frontal region of the African elephant (Hakeem et al., 2009). VENs have also been reported in the cortex of the small-bodied rock hyrax (P. capensis), which is the closest living relative of the elephants (Raghanti et al., 2015). These findings challenge hypotheses that suggest VENs were necessary solely for complex social interactions or that VENs facilitate information processing in large brains as they are found in a number of species across phylogenetic groups, body sizes, and EQs.

>>4928040
>>4923890
>>4923878
>>4927822
>Recently, a ubiquitous distribution of VENs was reported in various cortical areas in the pygmy hippopotamus, one of the closest living relatives of cetaceans. That finding suggested that VENs might not be unique to only a few species that possess enlarged brains. In the present analysis, we assessed the phylogenetic distribution of VENs within species representative of the superordinal clade that includes cetartiodactyls and perissodactyls, as well as afrotherians. In addition, the distribution of fork cells that are often found in close proximity to VENs was also assessed. Nissl-stained sections from the frontal pole, anterior cingulate cortex, anterior insula, and occipital pole of bowhead whale, cow, sheep, deer, horse, pig, rock hyrax, and human were examined using stereologic methods to quantify VENs and fork cells within layer V of all four cortical regions. VENs and fork cells were found in each of the species examined here with species-specific differences in distributions and densities. The present results demonstrated that VENs and fork cells were not restricted to highly encephalized or socially complex species, and their repeated emergence among distantly related species seems to represent convergent evolution of specialized pyramidal neurons. The widespread phylogenetic presence of VENs and fork cells indicates that these neuron morphologies readily emerged in response to selective forces,whose variety and nature are yet to be identified.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24852852/

The same shit happened with claims about cetacean brain size, EQ, etc, none of which were as correlated with intelligence (in interspecific comparisons) as initially thought. Even claims that dolphins passed the mirror test are highly dubious. Same for the even more dubious claims about "dolphin suicide."

>>4928043
>mirror test
this test is so poor it shouldn't even have a place outside of human developemental studies

a cleaning wrasse passed it with flying colors

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>>4928049
Hey who are you to judge the mighty intellect of the bluestreak cleaner wrasse?

>>4928175
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDOmXWwCVAE
I kneel.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/these-tiny-fish-check-themselves-out-in-a-mirror-before-deciding-whether-to-fight-180985061/

Not only are they conscious and self aware, they also have a body image and can use the mirror as a tool to make a judgment wether they should attack a rival or not.

>>4928267
My fucking dog admires himself in the mirror. He sits in front of it and moves his head around, not in a dog body language way, and then walks off. This is about as mirror test passy as any fucking dolphin.

My theory is that anything that has the cognitive capacity to have a sense of ownership over something AND the ability to know someone else owns something must have enough of a self to see themselves in a mirror, if they can stop panicking for a second. They must have a self to assign ownership to. They must observe themselves as they observe others to know whose stuff is whose. Which means basically every mammal is self aware.

Which should make you ask if most humans are actually that much more intelligent than some animals, or just less panicky so we get the opportunity to think more often, and humans below a certain IQ threshhold are actually peers to orangutans despite their brain size (downies have large brains too) due to dysfunction
Also, you should wonder about the animal equivalent of high and low IQ humans and if we’ve ignored it because they are equally panicky, or maybe the dumb ones could be less panicky

>>4928268
i always knew daschunds were dumber than cats and golden retrievers had the reasoning skills of a chihuahua despite all the wolfy and collie dogs being pretty clever but i never knew why

>>4928268
>>4928267
>>4928175
These fish are more intelligent than chimpanzees and orangutans:

>To bite or not to bite — that’s the tactical decision that a wrasse needs to make. To make this choice, wrasses are aided by a prodigious memory. One wrasse can complete 2,000 cleaning sessions each day and may be able to keep track of more than 100 individual clients.

>Bluestreak wrasses can also remember if the most recent interaction with one of its hundred-plus clients was positive or negative. If it previously mistreated a valuable customer —a big fish with lots of parasites, for example — the wrasse will offer an apology in the form of a more pleasant cleaning with an added fin ‘massage.’

>Wrasses lump their client fish into one of three categories. First, there are dangerous predators. Not surprisingly, cleaner wrasses almost never cheat the fish that could eat them. They also stick to the rules when servicing ‘floater’ fish that range across the reef and have a menu of other cleaning stations to choose from.

>But when it comes to small resident fish, bluestreak wrasses can be downright rotten. If a floater fish comes along, the wrasse will make the resident wait for a cleaning, even if the resident got there first. And, so long as no one else is watching, the wrasse is far more likely to take painful chomps out of its client-for-life.

>In a 2012 experiment that presented chimpanzees and orangutans with two plates of food — one permanent, one temporary — the apes usually chose which plate to eat from first at random. They never learned that they should pick the dish that the researchers could take away at any moment.

>Bluestreak wrasses, on the other hand, quickly figured out they should clear the impermanent plate first before switching to the guaranteed second course.

https://oceana.org/blog/certain-mental-tests-tiny-cleaner-wrasse-outperforms-chimps/

>>4928326
Remembering client fish is impressive but could be conditioned rather than conscious memory.

If all the fish go for the temporary client first it's probably instinctive rather than conscious intelligence.

Apes fail the test just like many humans would because they're not relying on conditioning or instinct to choose. Their more flexible intelligence causes them to fail new tests that other animals literally evolved to pass.

>>4928333
The article mentions that cleaner wrasses from larger reefs with a lot more fish clients to memorize were more intelligent than cleaner wrasses from small reefs that don't have to remember as much

>Not all cleaner wrasses, however, are eggheads. A 2014 experiment showed that cleaner wrasses from small patches of reef failed intelligence tests that their counterparts from big, continuous reefs passed handily. This suggests that socially complex environments trigger complex behavior.

>>4928336
nice. that would seem to rule out instinct. In that case carry on.

unless it's a failure in memory rather than understanding. But then memory is a large part of intelligence.

>>4928340
>But then memory is a large part of intelligence.
Hard-drives and Books have absolutely zero intelligence.
An adult with brain damage from a car accident may only be able to remember things that happened a day ago but they will still beat you in an IQ test or play the piano better than you with sheet music provided.
>>4928336
>The article mentions that cleaner wrasses from larger reefs with a lot more fish clients to memorize were more intelligent than cleaner wrasses from small reefs that don't have to remember as much
Ok, so genetics
>>4928340
>nice. that would seem to rule out instinct. In that case carry on.
No it doesn't lol.

>>4928326
>>4928258
don't harass the wrasse

>>4928439
cope, cleaning wrasse are smarter than dogs

>>4928554
Cleaning wrasse may have decent memories for which color combination to bite but dogs are up here learning grammar and guiding the blind

>>4928558
and chatgpt have entire conversations with you
no dog was ever proven to be conscious

>>4928573
No one other than me has been proven to be conscious

>>4928573
Umm, Chatgpt can't guide the blind and chatgpt just copies text written by humans from the internet lol. None of these "AI" techs took off before the internet because they needed human text and art to mindlessly copy and replicate with no thinking at all.
Proving consciousness isn't even that big of a problem.
Basically, the only creatures with it are mammals and some birds.
The pain test for example involves providing different types of feed. With only one feed type containing pain killers to relieve the pain of the injured test animal.
So testing a conscious awareness of pain.
An animal consciously aware of pain will eat the painkiller feed even when it tastes bad.
The dumbest/simplest animal to pass this test were chickens.
Reptiles, Amphibians, Fish, Insects etc don't pass this since they aren't consciously aware of pain even though they may automatically move away from predators and hide after injury.
>>4928581
Oh trust me anon, there are hundreds of millions out there conscious just like you.

>>4928573
Dog consciousness is self evident and operates on the same principle as human free will if humans do have free will. Quantum entanglement in neural microtubules allowing thoughts to be sent back into the past.

ChatGPT is a program that sends you relevant parts of text other people already wrote.

>>4928573
No transistor based system can be conscious, because all consciousness operates on hardware that has some quantum computing ability and the ability to collapse wave functions. Transistor brains can not collapse wave functions. A wet brain needs to observe their measurement and finalize the probabilities.

A quantum AI could be conscious but until then its wet brains only and we don’t have to wage the butlerian jihad, yet

>>4928588
>fish
I recall a study in which zebra danios injected with acid choose a tank with painkillers over their usual preference of an enriched tank.

Seeing eye dogs are well trained to perform a set of motions, but they have no concept of their owner being blind.

>>4928619
>I recall a study in which zebra danios injected with acid choose a tank with painkillers over their usual preference of an enriched tank.
Yeah, but my hand will automatically flinch away from a flame or hot stove after touching due to reflexes. If you touch a fish or shrimp it will automatically swim away. If a fish swims long enough in different directions it will eventually arrive in the water that isn't making it swim as much. The fish hasn't made any connection with what is happening or going on. I know that study. Not very convincing.

>>4928620
>Seeing eye dogs are well trained to perform a set of motions, but they have no concept of their owner being blind.
They know their owner doesn't run or know
exactly where anything is.

>>4928644
It's just one of the various studies done on pain in fish. They all point towards them experiencing pain beyond nociception.

>>4928664
Yeah, I would be much more convinced by a standard feed test.
Modern semi-retarded academics love practically claiming that even the rocks have feelings. They say anything they can to get attention and gain more government grants.

>>4928620
Dogs are clearly conscious. They use deductive reasoning and can know when you’re lying.

Even a fucking rat has some level of awareness.

>>4928684
>favor injured body parts
>rub pained body parts
>react to painkillers
>actively move to area with painkillers
>fish evolve causing pain to ther fish as a means of defense (spike fins)
>learn from pain and become wary of seeing a fishing line
>stop pain associated behavior when given painkillers

what more do you want?

>>4928687
>They use deductive reasoning and can know when you’re lying.

Are they really using deductive reasoning or just paying attention and reacting to your body language or tone of voice?

>>4928707
less lies and misleading observations perhaps?
>>4928711
Oh, they are clearly just fish with legs anon...

>>4928758
all these were done in labs with the scientific method

>>4928711
body language same with the counting horse

>>4928711
They really do use deductive reasoning. Chaser did. Dogs are known for being able to pull the if its not a or b its c thing.

>>4928711
Look I don't really want to get into this mess, but about 13 years ago my dad's ex girlfriend broke her leg on a hiking trip and the dog went to the main road and laid on the road, and when somebody finally stopped she hinted to the person to follow her.
2 miles, 2 MILES.
The damn dog saved that stupid bitch.

>>4928842
>all these were done in labs with the scientific method
not if they failed to control for instinct, reflex, and consciousness.

that's the reason a lot of ethology and psychology isn't treated as "real" science. They can't control for a lot of critical variables.

they're not using the scientific method when they ignore control of variables. Or when controlling those variables is impossible. It's not science. It looks like science but isn't.

>>4928854
everyone fucking knows dogs are conscious. you can personally observe behaviors that have no mechanistic explanation. that they aren't is just a lie people tell themselves to strengthen their moral position if they do awful shit like hit dogs or put them down over chickens and cats (which ironically also kill animals)

>>4928887
Our great ancestors knew literally every mammal was conscious. Blame the so called enlightenment.

>>4928890
they were also pretty sure rocks and trees and swords and clouds were conscious. I don't really trust their veiws.

>>4928854
>but about 13 years ago my dad's ex girlfriend broke her leg on a hiking trip and the dog went to the main road and laid on the road, and when somebody finally stopped she hinted to the person to follow her

Domestic pigs have been reporting doing this as well.

>>4928895
who takes a pig hiking?

>>4928901
Not the hiking part but:

https://animal-intuition.net/lulu-the-pig-stops-traffic-to-save-woman/

https://people.com/pets/hero-pet-pig-helps-save-owner-from-fire/

>>4928895
Pigs are about as smart as slightly above average dogs.

>>4928878
As we stand there is as much evidence for pain in fish as there is for dogs.

I imagine you just don't want to feel guilty for angling.

>>4928914
>I imagine you just don't want to feel guilty for angling.
Nah, I don't care. I've kept saltwater and freshwater fish most of my life and I don't necessarily doubt they feel pain.

I'm offended by poor science is all.

>>4928914
also adults generally don't feel guilty about stuff. If we do feel guilty we stop doing it.

kinda weird you don't understand that. Guilt is not a normal adult motivator. We do what we want.

>>4928920
Kek the amount of people having affairs says otherwise

>>4928921
do they feel guilty? I would guess not much. Until they get caught.

>>4928922
Battling guilt and desires is essentially human, all religion addresses this.

>>4928924
huh. I must be missing that part.

I don't fish because I don't like cleaning and eating fish all year long. Whether they feel pain or not doesn't concern me in the slightest.

>>4928925
Yeah i get it i just wanted to emphasize that guilt is indeed a source of conflict.

That's why meat eaters are so aggressive against even the mention of a vegan.

>>4928936
>That's why meat eaters are so aggressive against even the mention of a vegan.
I also don't get that. Sounds like severe autism.

another trait I associate with adulthood is not caring what other people do as long as they're not hurting you. I eat meat. I don't mind in the slightest if people don't eat meat. I also don't feel guilty about eating meat just because other people do feel guilt about it. But vegans certainly aren't harming me in any way.

>>4928936
No, that's because vegans just HAVE to let you know they're vegan.

>>4929032
not realy
every vegan discussion no matter how tame is instantly devolve into FOR EVERY ANIMAL YOU SAVE I KILL 5!!!!!!!

>>4928941
>another trait I associate with adulthood is not caring what other people do as long as they're not hurting you
>literally the "But how does it impact YOU?' meme

>>4929070
>every vegan discussion no matter how tame is instantly devolve into FOR EVERY ANIMAL YOU SAVE I KILL 5!!!!!!!
and it's really only here on /an/ where there's a couple of schizos that start frothing at the mouth anytime vegans are mentioned. if you go over to /ck/, vegan threads are generally well-behaved.

/ck/ also have actual mods that will delete blatant troll posts unlike here.

>>4929109
>ck/ also have actual mods
Are you sure about that?
>>>/ck/21042652

>>4928936
The guilt isnt over animals, its the martyrdom virtue. Vegans are self deniers/flagellators which is universally a virtue in the west.
The same people who get mad at vegans just for being vegan will also get mad if you are self denying anything. Did you merely stop eating beef? You fucking soi snob city cuck faggot! say they.

But, there’s also rage at vegans for being fucking retarded. Vegans love to post flat out lies claiming humans are herbivores that cant and were never meant to eat meat or satanic eastern philosophy claiming all lives have the same value. This is infuriating for the same reason claiming the earth is flat and mohammad, not jesus, was the real messiah. Because it is fucking wrong and your filth will destroy any decent society and turn it into china.

>>4928439
>Ok, so genetics
Yes, they select for more intelligent individuals, that's genetics.

>>4929120
Individuals with more memory, but they dont have to actually be that intelligent. Anyone comparing them even to mice is a midwit high on pop sci.

>>4928920
>t. defective psychopath

>>4929122
Claiming that an animal's behavior isn't intelligence driven because it's caused by genetics is an incredibly bizarre an unintelligent statement when intelligence is demonstrably controlled by genetics.

>>4929126
I didnt say it wasn’t intelligence because of generics. I said memory doesnt necessarily measure intelligence across species. It does within humans because human intelligence is measured as overall brain function and stupidly how well you’ve been educated hence the retarded inclusion of vocabulary on IQ tests (but, rich white and jewish kids are forced to read more so vocab correlates with g!!!!).

Its hard to find a human with poor memory not due to overall dysfunction that also lowers g. Maybe a few stroke/head injury victims.

On the other hand its possible to find an absurdly dumb animal with a great memory, and a smarter animal with a worse memory. For example, chimpanzees have better working memories than humans but suck balls at reasoning and abstract thought so they cant use that skill for anything but moving through trees faster.

>>4929130
>I didnt say it wasn’t intelligence because of generics.
Then what did you mean by
>>The article mentions that cleaner wrasses from larger reefs with a lot more fish clients to memorize were more intelligent than cleaner wrasses from small reefs that don't have to remember as much
>Ok, so genetics
Because it sure as shit reads like that's what you were implying.

>>4929140
>then what did
>you
>mean
Apply basic deductive reasoning or fail this consciousness check.

>>4929118
>frothing mouth reply
Case in point.

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>>4929144
not that anon, this is now the anon you first responded to with that comment. I never responded back because your comment showed ignorance of reefs and fishes and evolution.

when he said fish in less busy areas were less intelligent I immediately knew this wasn't genetic/instinctive.
The reasons being the reef isn't static, and areas of high and low traffic change far too quickly for fish to evolve to adapt to them. Also fishes aren't stuck in high or low traffic areas, they move around a lot as planktonic fry and larvae. And areas of high traffic are located very near areas of low traffic.

meaning the dumber fish are probably genetically identical to the smarter ones, and the difference in intelligence is caused by the use of the intelligence, not genetics.

I didn't bother responding to you because this should be obvious to anyone qualified to discuss it.
But if I failed to follow your train of thought feel free to correct me.
or if you think there's some mechanism allowing the evolution of higher and lower intelligence fishes in an environment that changes far faster than evolution can occur or in a place where the populations aren't separated from each other by any significant physical distance or barrier.

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Snowy owl...smart?

>>4929151
No, you were pretty thoroughly refuted. There are clearly other reasons people dislike vegans.
>A general dislike for martyr wannabes who claim to be good for self denial - this extends to straight edgers and other holier than thous
>Vegans tendency to spread disinfo and legitimately dangerous eastern philosophy
Secret guilt over killing animals is gonna be way down the list. It’s not animals. Its not that you dont like meat. Its that you behave like a delusional narcissist.

>>4929245
most vegans never mention it in real life so people often don't even know they're vegan.

internet is not the same as real life social situations. Not even close.

>>4929248
>She believes this
Clearly you’ve never spent much time where the white children of the wealthy hang out. Go to univesity and you WILL get a falsehood ridden, pseudo-hindu "v talk" from a subtly narcissistic person.

>>4929250
I don't hang out with literal children.

what are you doing?

>>4929253
>i never got a degree and am blue collar so i never meet vegans
k. you see being an annoying vegan is almost exclusive to neurotic rich people.

theres another reason people get angry at them

>>4929256
I was in school before your parents were born,
being vegan wasn't really a thing back then.

now I meet vegans all the time, I just don't usually find out until weeks or months later.

>>4928936
>That's why meat eaters are so aggressive against even the mention of a vegan.
Vegans are famous for constantly breaking into farms to protest as activists. Not to mention constantly telling people they are vegans out of nowhere. What in the hell are you even talking about?
>>4929109
>and it's really only here on /an/ where there's a couple of schizos that start frothing at the mouth anytime vegans are mentioned.
It's almost as if you turn every conversation into vegan activism and people tell you to shut up.
>>4929118
>The guilt isnt over animals, its the martyrdom virtue. Vegans are self deniers/flagellators which is universally a virtue in the west
You obviously haven't heard of India then.
>>4929126
>Claiming that an animal's behavior isn't intelligence driven because it's caused by genetics is an incredibly bizarre
It's not. It's like you've never heard of instinctual behavior where all behavior is pre-programmed. So insects for example.
>>4929151
>>frothing mouth reply
>Case in point.
He isn't frothing at the mouth or angry. You simply don't have a single valid argument or point.>>4929194
>The reasons being the reef isn't static, and areas of high and low traffic change far too quickly for fish to evolve to adapt to them.
There's nothing impossible about a subspecies of fish living at larger reefs for generations and evolving better memories than cleaner fish at smaller reefs.
>>4929248
>most vegans never mention it in real life so people often don't even know they're vegan.
They always mention it IRL and online out of nowhere just like you.
>>4929248
>internet is not the same as real life social situations. Not even close.
For vegans it literally is. You guys are insane enough even to harass people in public for eating meat. Break in farms. Gate-crash children's horse-patting birthdays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKZlYvNpupg
>>4929258
Veganism has been a populist fad since the late 1960s thanks to hippies discovering Indian bullshit

>>4929270
>They always mention it IRL and online out of nowhere just like you.
>You guys are insane enough even to harass people in public
I'm not a vegan you nutball

I remember reading somewhere that parrots and crows are so intelligent because the efficiency of their neuron conduction relative to the amount in their skull is high.

>>4929274
>I'm not a vegan you nutball
You are vegan. Silence yourself please.

>>4929275
And unsurprisingly they aren't vegans or animal rights advocates.

>>4929286
>You are vegan
kek
you're retarded

>>4929315
That's amazing vegan anon. You are cool because you are vegan. Extremely cool and awesome in fact. Fantastic.

>>4929270
>Vegans are famous for constantly breaking into farms to protest as activists.

Why are modern animal rights/environmentalist activists so inane? Vandalizing monuments, defacing paintings, supporting policies that often cause more harm to animals than good.

>>4929545
only the crazy ones make headlines.

just like 4chan posters

Why not just post the wikipedia page you got that from?

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>>4929196
Problem?

>>4929194
It's a sucking fish

>>4929604
>only the crazy ones make headlines.
>just like 4chan posters
Lol, NO.
Come on.
MOST 4channers and Vegans ARE insane.
Both IRL and online.
The belief system of veganism only leaves insane behavior as the option and "solution" to all the world's problems.
>>4929545
(1) They only do insane crap in countries that turn a blind eye to it. They take advantage of left-leaning policies.
(2) It has very little to do with being pro-animal and more to do with being anti-human. Severely misanthropic people are usually mentally ill because humans are a very social in-group species.
(3) Raw veganism WILL kill you. Veganism with vitamin supplementation will lower your life expectancy significantly. Vegetarianism only works when it includes eggs, milk and cheese. Even then, you have a higher incidence of stroke. Also, historically speaking Indian vegetarians ate fish which changes everything.
(4) So, you have a perfect recipe for disaster -
no consequences for their actions.
Mentally ill and hate people.
Terrible diet that accelerates their mental decline.

>>4929725
>Also, historically speaking Indian vegetarians ate fish which changes everything.

Wait, really?

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>>4929930
Yes, because literally no one cares about fish.

>>4929950
Umm certain fish are probably smarter than your pets:

>>4928175

>>4929972
That doesn’t matter moralfags are still only going to care about mammals

>>4922730
looking at this cat is unnerving

>>4930670
It's the true face of a cat: retarded

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>>4929639
Catfags can't believe this charming animal is smarter than their pet

>>4930933
owls are know and observed to be amongs the dumbest birds
they use all their brain power for sight and hearing

>>4930959
The ancient Greeks disagreed with you and I trust them more than American cathumpers

>>4930976
Do you not trust falconers who work with these birds all their life?

>>4930984
Do you really reply earnestly to mentally ill trolls?

>>4931089
Yeah

>>4930984
Maybe the owls don't want to take orders from faggots wearing huge gloves? Sounds based and intelligent to me.

>>4931099
Based owls. Any bird that can be effectively enslaved by a human without having to want to fuck them (birds are weird perverts ay) is probably retarded.

>>4931094
Carry on then.

>>4928043
>>4928049
>>4928040
>>4927833
>>4927822
>>4923878
After reviewing the evidence I'm inclined to believe that dolphins are about as intelligent as the smartest dog breeds like Border Collies. Certainly nothing to scoff at, but not human-level intelligence either.

>>4926746
Reddit spacing is real the concept is just so old nobody knows what it is anymore

>>4922730
Actually lmaoing at catfags

>>4923037
I don't know but they definitely think.
>Raja et al (2020) found that potted French bean plants, when planted 30 centimetres from a garden cane, would adjust their growth patterns to enable themselves to use the cane as a support in the future. Raja later stated that "If the movement of plants is controlled and affected by objects in their vicinity, then we are talking about more complex behaviours (rather than simple) reactions". Raja proposed that researchers should look for corresponding cognitive signatures.

>>4922730
Sea otters are probably smarter than dolphins. All those neurons are for sonar and coordination. They have expanded empathetic circuits so they dont need to consciously think to coordinate their behavior.

>>4929639
>>4930933
Owls are so cute

>>4928914
Lobsters and other crustaceans also feel pain

>>4935157
They process nociception but feeling pain is a thing for mammals only. Nothing else on earth actually had a self to feel. We are gods chosen class, the only things on earth with true consciousness.

>>4935165
>christcuckery
gb2 /pol/

>>4935167
Who said anything about krishna’s modern incarnation? This was revealed to me by an infant headed man wearing a robe after i realized what the grid really was during a DMT trip. God is a being but also the universe itself, and its sole creator and determinant. Mammals are part of his personal project to create himself within himself and the only one that hasnt lost the plot yet. There are no aliens, angels, or demons either. Only projections of aspects of God, and projections of aspects of yourself.
>inb4 schizo
Nope, real. I also saw the lit tunnel as a static object. You can just walk down it whenever you want. It’s an engineered construct in the human mind for souls to commit suicide.

>>4922730
Is Artiodactyl intelligence underrated?
People assume predators are smarter because lol eating grass doesn't require intelligence, ignoring that these herbivores are social k strategists, that have to come up with ways to protect themselves and their young in a variety of situations.

They both have similar total neuron count and cortical neuron count as carnivores of the same size.
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/neuroanatomy/articles/10.3389/fnana.2017.00118/full

If you look at the numbers in this list in OP the blesbok is also much smaller than a lion but has equal/slightly more cortical neurons.

>>4935193
Way underrated. Cattle as an insult is meant to cut deep. The aurochs were noble, intelligent and powerful animals with a strong will to live. They had to outwit and kill wolves, hyenas, and lions for years to survive long enough to have just one more kid all while existing in a complicated social hierarchy. Although cucked into appearing slow and dumb by their size and anatomy, they were likely as intelligent as the wolves and hyenas themselves.

Todays cattle stare at you as you kill all their friends and then them and willingly walk into slaughterhouses instead of just turning around.

>>4932184
Even single cell living beings think. I see it as the spirit of God or something like His uncreated energies that animates that intelligence, either way He's involved there personally. Perhaps He does give every single one of them a spiritual agency, a consciousness with intentionality, that’s simple and unified. Look into Barbara McClintock's experiments and what she wrote about it, she even won a Nobel prize for that.
>>4923850
Intelligence is a gift of God.
There was a young student with hydrocephaly, a condition in which the cerebral hemispheres are largely absent, and the space is filled with cerebrospinal fluid. Despite having "virtually no brain," the student had an IQ of 126, earned a first-class honors degree in mathematics, and was "socially completely normal." A brain scan revealed that instead of the normal 4.5-centimeter thickness of brain tissue, there was only a thin layer measuring about a millimeter. The student's cranium was filled mainly with cerebrospinal fluid, and it was unclear whether his brain weighed 50 grams or 150 grams, a far cry from the normal 1.5 kilograms. This case raises questions about whether neuronal complexity is necessary for awareness, as the remaining areas of the diencephalon and brainstem amounted to only 6–10% of the neuronal mass of a normal brain.

>>4935193
>>4935218
Cape buffalo display better organizational skills and more empathy for each other than their predators:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo0qpVlClSs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9w0OadktGI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eW4G_nWJYZA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvWMuJO4Vsc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVrLYHFN-3c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYeW9Y3Whaw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ffyhJBFHEI
https://youtu.be/qhKBcNQpEro?si=sN9iVH7ckvHcUDAV&t=468
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Me2IIVhYdok
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4lHtb-Uanw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LU8DDYz68kM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEesgd6G6QQ

Ungulate intelligence gets dismissed and carnivore intelligence gets overrated so that humans don't feel bad about cramming cattle and pigs into feedlots so that they can eat their burgers and hot dogs. Don't forget cetaceans evolved from ungulates as well.

You can also notice the double standards when discussing nature documentaries/footage. People celebrate predators like lions, bears, and wolves for taking down ungulates and herbivores in general, but those same people feel uncomfortable when they see lions, bears, wolves, and other predators get killed by each other or by other carnivores even though that happens very often in the wild and is no less natural. Sheer hypocrisy!

>>4935639
>lion males: kill each other and baby lions
>buffaloes: bull saves a fellow bull, bulldozers into the lion pack risking injury to himself

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>>4935639