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PREVIOUS THREAD: >>60863030

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START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL
START MINING IN P2POOL
>START MINING IN P2POOL

P2Pool combines the advantages of pool and solo mining; you still fully control your Monero node and what it mines, but you get frequent payouts like on a regular pool.

P2Pool has no central server that can be shut down/blocked because it uses a separate blockchain to merge mine with Monero. There's no pool admin that can control what your hashrate is used for or decide who can mine on the pool and who can't. It's permissionless!

Decentralized pool mining (P2Pool) is pretty much the ultimate way to secure a PoW coin against 51% attacks. Once P2Pool reaches & maintains 51%+ of the total network hashrate, Monero will be essentially invulnerable to such attacks.

Although many inexperienced miners think that bigger pools give better profits, this is absolutely NOT the case. Your profits in the long run depend ONLY on your hashrate, NOT on the pool's hashrate.


>YOU CAN NOW MINE IN P2POOL FASTER & EASIER THAN EVER BEFORE WITH THE GUPAX GUI. USES TRUSTED REMOTE NODES BY DEFAULT!!!!

1. Download the *bundled* version of Gupax for your OS here: https://gupax.io/downloads/
2. Extract somewhere (Desktop, Documents, etc)
3. Launch Gupax
4. Input your Monero address in the [P2Pool] tab. USE A SEPARATE MINING-ONLY WALLET!
5. Select a Community Monero Node that you trust, although you can and should run your own node if possible.
6. Start P2Pool
7. Start XMRig

VIDEO GUIDE: https://gupax.io/guide/

You are now mining to your own instance of P2Pool, welcome to the world of decentralized peer-to-peer mining!

>NOTE THAT DUE TO BOTNET SHENANIGANS XMRIG IS AUTO-FLAGGED AS MALWARE BY MOST ANTI-VIRUSES, SO DON'T FREAK OUT!!!


OLD GUIDE FOR P2POOL MINING FROM THE MONERO GUI WALLET: https://pst.klgrth.io/paste/eecbe

https://www.reddit.com/r/MoneroMining
https://web.xmrpool.eu/xmr-monero-easy-mining-guide.html
https://monero.hashvault.pro/en/getting-started
https://www.supportxmr.com

>>60868895
Oh boy I can't wait for this one to be spammed by people who totally care about XMR

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*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****
>*****/XMR/ Monero General Info-Dump*****


Learn more about Monero's key features and excellent future prospects, have some common misconceptions dispelled and discover the cold hard facts about Bitcoin, Zcash and PirateChain. Also featured is a noob-friendly buying, storage and wallet guide.


>Monero: it's what new Bitcoin users think they bought. Every feature, explained
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org


>Why Monero is so untraceable: a rundown of the powerful stealth tech Monero utilizes
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroIsUntraceable


>The Writing on the Wall: Monero replacing Bitcoin as the new standard
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#MoneroReplacingBitcoin


>Breaking News: no, Monero still isn't traceable
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#RecognizingTraceabilityFUD


>Vaporware: why nobody is worried about CipherTrace's magic crystal ball
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#CipherTraceFail


>Very Clever Math: how we can verify that the XMR supply isn't being inflated
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org/#MuhInflationBug


>Pssst, wanna buy some Monero? Follow these simple how-to guides
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BuyAndStoreMonero


>Bitcoin: The Original Non-Fungible Token
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#BitcoinBlackpill


>Why Monero is Better than Zcash: the "privacy coin" criminals won't touch
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#ZcashBlackpill


>The Lowdown on PirateChain: why this Zcash clone is considered a scam
https://moneroinfodump.neocities.org#PirateChainBlackpill


>LATEST UPDATES

- added Proof-of-Stake update to Zcash Blackpill
- added list of available desktop/mobile wallets
- expanded all sections with more relevant info, graphics & videos
- added easily linkable headers and sub-headers (link icon to the far right)
- added a new section about traceability FUD

Oh boy I can't wait to hear the same retarded commie bullshit that was ridiculed to death in the previous threads again.

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Never forget what this is ultimately all about. Don't be a HODLtard.

https://archive.is/YBnPG
https://freedomcells.org/

>Help grow the circular Monero economy: buy/sell goods & services with/for XMR!

https://monerica.com/
https://xmrbazaar.com/
https://www.reddit.com/r/moneromarket/new/
https://kycnot.me/?t=service&q=&xmr=on

>Shop on Amazon with XMR!
https://monezon.com
https://peershop.app

>Live off XMR with Cake Pay (now available in 140+ countries!)
https://cakepay.com/

>or with CoinCards
https://coincards.com/


>Monero stickers for guerilla marketing
http://monerosupplies.com/

>Anonymous burner phone numbers
https://silent.link/

>Monero-only VPS hosting
https://kyun.host/

>Win XMR!
https://monero.vegas/


Say buh-bye to Bitcoin and support the growing number of Monero-only darknet markets/vendors.

# = recently launched, exercise caution

>Alias Market #
>Asur Market
>Babylon #
>Calypso #
>Candy Haven #
>Chimera Market
>Cloud Market
>Cypher Market
>Dark Matter
>DrugHub #
>DrugTown #
>Drugula #
>FilthyFellas
>Gofish Market #
>Gramazon #
>Hectate Market #
>Mercury Market #
>Pygmalion's Refuge
>Retro Market
>Smackers
>Sonanza Market #
>Squid Market
>SuperMarket #
>Tribe Seuss
>Whales Market #
>Wizard's Palace #
>World Trade Center #
Links: https://pastebin.com/raw/fF95wTNi


Anonymously exchange BTC for XMR using a reputable darknet service

>Infinity Project
https://pastebin.com/raw/75mVpfED

or a reputable clearnet service

https://trocador.app/en/ | I2P: http://trocador.i2p/en/
https://xmrswap.me
https://unstoppableswap.net
http://basicswapdex.com


>Want to support further development?
https://ccs.getmonero.org/donate/
https://monerofund.org/

>Join a Monero Workgroup and (potentially) earn XMR!!!
https://www.getmonero.org/community/workgroups/

>Want more Monero-chan?
https://www.monerochan.art/

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>How to *safely* acquire, store and spend XMR

An optimal XMR user set-up involves 2 separate wallets: an offline cold wallet (savings account) and an online hot wallet (chequing account) for everyday spending. XMR amounts larger than a few hundred dollars worth should not be stored on a hot wallet for obvious reasons. So ideally, you'll want to direct all payments/donations to your cold wallet by default and then transfer smaller amounts over to your hot wallet as necessary.

Relying on 3rd party hardware wallets comes with certain security caveats so they are not recommended. Instead, its surprisingly easy to engineer a very robust storage solution yourself using readily available hardware: a laptop and a smartphone.

>Laptop

This will be running Featherwallet and must be *permanently* disabled from ever connecting to the internet again! That means physically removing the M.2 Bluetooth/Wi-Fi card and gumming up the ethernet port with superglue.

OS should be Linux rather than Windows, preferably a Debian-based lightweight distro. Encrypting the relevant user directory with LUKS is recommended but not essential.

It must have a functional webcam.


>Smartphone

This can be your primary device. It will host both your hot wallet e.g. Cake, Monerujo, etc and the NERO view-only wallet that is paired with your laptop.

To set everything up: https://4rkal.com/posts/feathernero/

NOTE: if you don't have a laptop you can use another smartphone and install the ANON wallet onto it, its essentially the same thing but with somewhat weaker security guarantees. Video guide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJqYzZyqyno

>In a nutshell

- you accept all (substantial) payments to your cold wallet.
- you monitor incoming payments on NERO.
- you initiate the transfer of funds from your cold wallet to hot wallet on NERO and sign the TX on your laptop via QR codes.
- you spend the funds and help grow the XMR economy.


FYI this is the most secure storage solution currently available.

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>Bitcoin's price = NOT the result of organic real-world supply & demand = NOT sustainable

Wash trading has been artificially driving BTC's insane price action since the first major spike in 2013.

>Wash Trading 101
1. create/maintain the illusion of high volume
2. wait for poor unsuspecting fools to FOMO in
3. dump at a fat profit and leave them holding the bag

When the supply of gullible fools finally runs out, the entire scheme implodes.

TL;DR: exciting price action means nothing in an unregulated market rife with such manipulation, real-world utilization is the ONLY reliable metric of actual value.

Remember kids: communism is bad for your health. Do sports, eat healthy, go outside, and you won't end up a delusional autist like a few *true* monero advocates here.

***** DISCLAIMER *****

The creator of this thread actively discourages holding Monero. We, the broader community of Monero, do not agree with him. Buying and holding Monero is a completely legitimate way to participate in the protocol, and we encourage you to save your wealth in XMR.

XMR is THE best store of value in the world. Not only is it highly scarce, it is entirely untraceable by any third party. No other store of value, including Bitcoin, provides the ability to anonymously hold your wealth anywhere in the world. Armed with only your seed phrase, you can literally take your private bank account anywhere without the consent or permission of anyone. It is like having an invisible stockpile of gold only you know about.

Privacy will be increasingly rare in the coming years, but the supply of Monero will barely increase. Many people understand that Monero represents the most undervalued asset in the world.

***ADDITIONAL DISCLAIMER***

The creator of this thread has been credibly accused of being a federal agent. He actively pushes all potential holders of Monero away unless they agree with only using XMR in bartering scenarios. He will use straw manning tactics against anyone who advocates for saving their wealth in XMR. Anyone suggesting that Monero can preserve and hide their wealth will be called a "grifter", "moonfag", or any of several other slurs intended to end the conversation.

These tactics support the state apparatus directly by denying Monero the notoriety it deserves. Widespread use of Monero, especially through wealth preservation, starves the state of key financial information and tax farming. Pretending there is only one "legitimate" use of Monero (bake sales at Porcfest) while shunning any other uses foments fake division, a favorite strategy of the intelligence community.

Remember that many authors (W. Rees-Mogg, The Sovereign Individual) predict that states will get increasingly "nasty" as private currencies threaten their power of surveillance. The OP has strategically installed himself as the self-appointed "leader" of Monero on this board, but has no such authority to tell you how to use the best currency ever invented.

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Sorry guys the normies think your coin is dead.
https://redlib.privacyredirect.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/1n3ct08/qubic_hasnt_stopped_with_their_attack_on_the/

>>60868953
Should we add more sugar to the chocolate chips?

>>60868964
No, we should just explain to those redditors how mining at a loss is actually a good thing. Also won't hurt to teach the normies how to run a miner so they realize that they actually care about privacy and also want to mine at a loss. That's the strategy.

>>60868976
>Immediately gets to mispresenting
Like clockwork

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Reminder you have to convince actual 60 IQ idiots who don't know anything about the original purpose of bitcoin to care about monero btw.

>>60868982
Oh really? If you go to the previous thread, you'll see these exact points about mining at a loss and teaching people to run a miner to mine at a loss:
>>60863982
>>60868809
>>60868227

Misrepresenting is your thing, don't project.

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Someone did the napkin math based on various studies. Basically if Monero captured even a tiny sliver of the private money that's out there, such as what is stored in offshore bank accounts and such, then Monero's value could become more than Bitcoin's.

To get there, we need to raise the mining security budget of Monero. To do that is simple: We raise the price. That's right, you can secure Monero by simply buying it. By buying Monero at this trying time and this low price, not only will you help secure Monero, but this extra security will in turn attract more money to Monero, which will further secure it, and so on. This will keep going until at least Bitcoin's current market cap.

Yes, Monero will be worth at least $100k (inflation adjusted). Marschads will win. Bakecels keep flushing along.

>>60868995
>Keeping your currency safe and usable is a good thing
Yes!
>Don't teach them about the importance of privacy but how to achieve it
Thanks for proving you're misrepresenting me
>Being egoistic in a system which relies on people wanting it to function is bad
How is that even related to your other misrepresentations?

>>60869020
Now you're outright lying, how nice. It's good that other people actually *can* read and will see that there's no misrepresentation at all, you're literally suggesting to mine at a loss and, instead of incentivizing people to care about privacy and mining, you suggest to just teach them how to mine at a loss.
Commie retard in a nutshell. If you see that ID, don't engage, it's useless. Just say: flush your toilet, mr. schizo. Mining should be just like flushing your toilet according to him, you see.

>>60869032
>you're literally suggesting to mine at a loss
I'm saying we need to keep the network secure. If that includes mining without making profits off enabling your currency to be used that's a small price to pay.
>instead of incentivizing people to care about privacy and mining
Because your solution would let to a bunch of retards coming here only for bags and cannibalizing the project. If there isn't an absolute necessity you'd not spend your XMR if it massively appreciated in value unless you had a more profitable investment instead. The way you want XMR to be a store of value would lead to it losing what makes it valuable in the first place: Its *transactional* benefits.

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JUST RAISE THE FUCKING FEES!!

AAAAAARRHHHRHRHGGGGG

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>buy monero
>fees rise in value
>monero saved

>>60869082
>CFB slurps your increased fees
>keeps slurping all the block rewards
>'heh, nothing personel kiddo'

>>60869093
I'm not going to buy until they fix their shit, I don't care how but those are my terms

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>>60869106
I don't think you understand. The fix is buying it.

>>60869093
Literally no one is going to buy this shit while it's still obviously vulnerable to 51% attacks.

>>60869117
Not going to happen find some other way

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>>60869127
>>60869130
The devs released the fix. To upgrade, you just press buy on Monero. Once 51% of the node operators do it, Monero is no longer vulnerable. Yep, it's really that simple

I won't buy any more XMR until securing the chain has a real finantial incentive and is not expected to be done on altruism.

https://xcancel.com/c___f___b/status/1961547614110777694

Even CFB thinks the 'finality layer' is bogus

Can you imagine having Monero get destroyed because a few infantile idealists pretend that people should have to lose money just to join the Monero club they invented in their heads?

Like imagine a bunch of 50 year old manchildren with D&D fetishes and a bedroom full of anime figurines holding the community hostage so that no profitable activity ever occurs.

Your entire economic future? Destroyed by bakecels
The possibility of having private transactions in the future? Selling cookies now takes priority
You think this coin can free you from slavery? Think again, moonfag

It’s just so funny to me that unironic massive losers of life can manage to prevent the spread of the best coin ever invented.

OP, and everyone who agrees with him, I just want you to understand you deserve a death by fire. You should be tossed into a volcano as an offering to the God of MOON.

>duude devs need to pilpul some fix
>duude people need to mine out of altruism
There is no free lunch. Buy the coin, Chud.

>>60869287
Securing the chain gets a real financial incentive once you buy Monero.

>>60869306
It’s hard to know who to trust anymore. Is Cfb a good faith attacker or a tool of a state actor?

Is he trying to change Monero to improve it or do destroy its core principles and cause a social hard fork?

>>60869287
You’re not ALLOWED to care about your own life anon. That’s anti-myideologyism.

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>>60869326
>the spread of the best coin ever invented.

Give it a rest, Mav, you'll overheat.

>>60869033
>If they can't understand that you generally don't sell goods which will appreciate in value they are not old enough to handle money.
Oh you think deflation is bad
That's keynesian shit right there.
This was supposed to be the ancap coin, not the keynessian shitcoin.

>>60869329
>is the known scam artist a good faith attacker?
i dont know retard you tell me

Wasn't the whole point of tail emissions so mining and securing the chain would have a finantial incentinve in the future?
Why is now having an incentive to mine a bad thing?
Who hijacked Monero's principles?

What's the point of tail emissions if miners are expected to work at a loss anyway?
Are you seeing the contradictions here?

>>60869364
OP doesn’t care about:
>privacy
>fungibility
>avoiding taxes
>private bank accounts
>growing wealth
>hiding wealth from prying eyes
>hiding wealth from AI and chain analytics
>becoming a black box to a government
>opting out of inflation and fiat shenanigans
>replacing fiat or BTC as a shit SOV

He ONLY cares that number DOESNT go up. Apparently if you want NGU then all of the above is invalidated. He is a fucking cancer on this board and SOMEONE should replace him. Anyone. Literally anyone would be better.

>>60869377
It was very nice of him NOT to do a 10 block reorg when he could have. Even scammers need reliable private transaction systems to wash their ill gotten gains.

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>>60869393
>I care about Monero *so* much!

lol cool story, Mav.

>>60869422
You’re just a fucking asshole lol

>>60869445
No, he said he likes fucking assholes. There's a difference.

>>60869422
Where are we at OP? Last thread you seemed to gloss over that building an ASIC miner is now less permissioned than building a CPU rig and that blocking chip imports is impossible. Before reverting back to whatever your current talking points are.

>>60869326
Based.

>>60869383
>>60869389
Yep. They are retarded. Mining needs to be profitable.

>>60869655
>>60869326
Monero is the Gentoo Linux of crypto. And I am 100% sure OP knows what I mean by that. Monero going up or becoming popular would ruin it because that would mean normies were making it off their based, cypherpunk community. Anti moonboyism doesn't have anything to do with keeping Monero viable. It's 100% about not "ruining" their niche social club.
OP is the same kind of person who lectures others for saying Linux and not GNU+Linux

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From this point on, I'm just going to assume that anyone who disagrees with the following statement is a fed who wants to see XMR die.

"Monero mining should be profitable."

>>60869666
having normies means having compliance and regulations.

>>60869719
or I should say, having *more* compliance and regulations.

Is Monero still getting cucked by that slav kid?

>>60869719
At least you're admitting that you don't want Monero to be ubiquitous or popular.

Instead of post after post about moonfags and agorism and whatever, why don't you guys just say "we don't want Monero to be popular". That would make all of this so much easier.

>>60869729
Yes.

>>60869757
If Monero is "adopted" by normies, it will just become a number go up investment vehicle that will be pwned by the state, making it no different than Bitcoin. It's not that I don't want Monero to be popular, it's just I actually understand that normies don't give a shit about using cryptocurrency and just treat it as stock options lol. source: the last 15 years of cryptocurrency usage statistics

>>60869798
Normies and popular are synonymous. You and I both know they always are 95% of the population and that they will never change, it is a genetic predisposition. Yet every good King knew how to deal with them. You guys have to come up with a way to deal with them too or clearly state in the OP post that "Monero is not for the vast majority of people, we don't want anyone investing in this, we don't want most people adopting the most private cryptocurrency ever, our ideological purity is more important than improving your situation"

But if you go that route Monero will probably die, which is a pity.

>>60869798
Literally what the fuck do you want then? What do bakecels actually want? You just want your little club to remain obscure, even though….

Monero has a token
Monero has a market for the token
Monero has original research that makes it attractive for investors compared to other shit coins
Monero enables wealth privacy and transactional privacy in a time where those things are exceedingly rare

Like I don’t get how you can expect this to stay under the radar with those facts. So what even is your ideal future?

Why don’t you guys just make a super private decentralized DEX with no token so you can have your utility without any of the pesky market mechanisms of a token? Like bakecels literally don’t belong here.

>>60869798
>>60869825
And to make things clear, there are ways to deal with normies. Bitcoin did it by selling them number go up, it worked, the network got mass support to prevent any state from killing them, while leaving the devs free to work on lightning network, coinjoins, joinmarket, nostr, diy ASICs, and now bitchat. Actual cypherpunk tech. But first they got the normies out of the way so they weren't fighting an uphill battle. Sure it wasn't an ideologically pure approach, but it worked.

>>60869729
Did they move on to 51% attack dogecoin already?

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>MONERO MINING SHOULD BE LIKE FLUSHING YOUR TOILET

Monero is
>FREE
>AS IN
>FLUSH THE TOILET
>SOFTWARE

Monero is
>FOLDING AT HOME
>TOR
>I2P
>ODYSEE
so why are you expecting to make a profit out of mining it?? Are you a MOONFAGGGOTTTT

12 rules for bakesales

>mine at an acceptable loss

>flush your toilet

>price pumps are bad

>price appreciations are suspect

>government tried and failed to defeat xmr

>go on irrelevant tangents in the thread

>act as if we "already discussed this"

>reply with a reaction image

>51 percent atak? never happened/will never happen

>reorgs out the ass? minor inconvenience

>cexes? no, you gotta jump through eleven hoops to get monero

>no liq on dexes? use pay by mail with a literal who anyways

Trust the plan brothers. I am sure our overlords the devs are cooking up new schemes that will change consensus rules once again. We are so lucky to have them steer the ship, otherwise, how could Monero fare on its own, right?

Let's see what do we have on the menu:

1) A literal Proof of Stake

2) Light Proof of Stake (finality layer)

3) Some weird block time weighting that nobody knows what kinds of 2nd or 3rd degree side effects it will have on the blockchain dynamics

4) Some other weird proposal about DNS checkpointing, which, at this point, we should abandon mining (which doesn't bring in any money anyways) and let a handful of DNS computers dictate the correct chain lmao

5) Francisco "Uhhmmm I woud rather not increase the fees" Cabanas

6) Howard "MINERS SHOULDN'T MAKE MONEY" Chu

7) Monerogeneral

> "Mining should be like flushing your toilet, a thing you do without financial compensation"

OP (the gall to say this for a PROOF OF WORK NETWORK --- insane retardation by the OP)

8) Some weird form of altruism that goes against every kind of Misesian Human Action

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>Those who can't mine for whatever reason can donate to Xenu's (Anti-Moonboy) Monero Defense Fund
KEK. The defense incentivization's supposed to be brought in by the blockchain economics (miner reward, transaction fees, difficulty adjustment, etc. etc.)

Now you guys are relying on make-do clutches, sending, Monero to a single guy, who in turn is (supposedly) renting CPUs from other centralized providers.

jfc...

>MINING RIG RENTALS ARE THE FUTURE OF XMR DEFENSE FORCE

HOW IN THE FUCK
>RENTING MINING RIGS
FROM CENTRALIZED PROVIDERS
>DIFFERENT FROM "MUH ASICS"
WHEN IT COMES TO
>CENTRALIZATION OF HASHRATE

Monero is switching its consensus algo to "proof of defense fund administration".

>noo everybody wants to change monero
>everybody is le snaeks in le grass

Monero WILL change.
Whether you like it or not.
Either Monero will get PROOF OF STAKE finality layer
OR
It will have its marketcap increase to a point where **mining it is sustainable.**

Bakecels won't get what you claim to want: monero going on as it currently is.

>>60870645
>>60870634
>>60870632
>>60870630
>>60870628
>>60870623
>>60870622
>>60870620

Please take your meds.

>>60870650
Tell me, chief bakecel, are you OK with Monero getting either a:

1) Proof of stake finality layer
2) total Proof of Stake

Because Proof of Stake (both kinds) discussions are picking up steam on the Monero developers' side (and we all know whatever the devs decide on, gets implemented (randomx being the chief example))

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wpVcq8e5vs

If you are not OK with either of those, what is your solution to the qubic problem? Not doing anything about it? Continuing the bakesales?

>>60870662
sir i didn't say shit you're having a schizo meltdown

>>60870664
what is your opinion on the proof of stake options?

>>60870665
my opinion is that i fucked your mom last night

>>60870667
>>60870650
>>60870664

>>60869329
>Is Cfb a good faith attacker
>Sustained expensive attack out of nowhere
>Doesn't just attack once to prove his point, continues to attack even at points where he claimed to have shown how 'insecure' XMR is
>Doesn't offer any solutions
>Massive marketing campaign so people already thought he had 51% when he was still around 20
>Obfuscates his hashrate and gives wrong self reports of hashrate
>Already has new targets in mind

>>60869364
No, I know that you don't sell if you don't have to and can make more money later

>>60869757
Weird, that's the complete opposite of what I said but we've both been called OP by you. Maybe you are the one who needs to see a doc

>>60870679
>you don't sell if you don't have to and can make more money later
And this is bad.. because??? reasons...?

>nooo let me dictate what you do with your moneyyyyy
>you cannot be incentivized to hoard more of itt

>>60870685
>And this is bad.. because??? reasons...?
Because a currency needs to be in circulation to justify its value. XMR is supposed to be the currency, you can choose anything else for wealth building or storage of value but Monero is precisely designed for transactions.

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>>60870690

>>60870698
>What? I need to use the thing that was designed for usage?

>>60870705
>saving is not using

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>>60869326
>offering to the God of MOON

>>60869666
I installed Gentoo many times, daily drive Arch, and I even gate keep Linux by saying how unless you're a very casual user, you need to be able to use the terminal or you just don't belong in Linux. I even mine Monero with no profit but I don't expect others to do so. Even I know you can't apply that to a PoW cryptocurrency cuz anything money related ain't fucking work that way.

>>60869719
Not if you make it its identity, which it already is.

>>60869798
Adopted by normies is such vague and hypothetical thing. Monero can 100x without normies ever being really involved, for one. And even normies know some things are hush hush. Normies can buy their tiny secret weed stacks all they want. Doesn't have to change shit.

You retards are again ignoring immediate existential problems to worry about some vague hypothetical very distant future "good to have problems".

Oh any yes, want to keep Monero's purity? Just buy Monero now so you become a whale and can lobby to keep Monero real. There really is no Monero problem that can't be solved by just buying it now.

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bake

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shop

>>60870899
>>60870903
>but never save

>>60869831
Monero is so incredibly important and undervalued in such a wide open market, if anyone did a hostile takeover of Monero's community, I would not blame them. I would blame bakecels.

>>60869831
A combination of oppositional defiance disorder and not knowing their history.
They don't want to become what bitcoin is but don't understand how it got there in the first place.

>>60870690
That goes against Mises ideas

>>60870690
Monero had everything to be a currency AND a storage of value if it could secure it's own network with financial incentives

>>60871133
I made a diagnosis in the prev thread: Reverse cargo cult mentality stemming from a trauma of being buckbroken by shitcoins mooning. They think if they do the reverse of mooning this will make them not a shitcoin.

>>60871172
It's probably both. The sad part is that a lot of us will parrot bitcoiner talking points designed to keep capital away from XMR like
>>60870690
Is the 'bitcoin is a savings account; Monero is a checking account' argument with extra fluff

>>60871165
The thought that your currency should also be a storage of value is absolutely retarded. It would make people spend less XMR relatively speaking since anyone spending any amount of XMR would need a really good reason to do so.

>>60871189
>The thought that your currency should also be a storage of value is absolutely retarded.

>what is money

I should add
>what is "sound money"

>>60871189
If people don't spend monero when they have an incentive to hoard, that means spending was not valuable enough. Simple as that. You're trying to fight natural market forces, and that's why you're losing to qubic.

>>60871189
>since anyone spending any amount of XMR would need a really good reason to do so.
I don't see a problem with that. Are you for people doing impulse spending on cheap widgets? Or purchasing things that they don't need, simply to keep XMR circulation velocity high?

You make not much sense.

>>60871206
Not only that, sound (non inflationary) money is also an investment, a word bakecels really hate.

Let's do a little though experiment: Let's say there is a society, and as money they trade 1 million coins. Okay, lets say a paperclip is worth 10 coins. A person earns 10 coins and instead of buying a paperclip, he saves that money. A few years later, he finds out his money can now buy 10 paperclips. How is that possible? Well, the tech improved, more paperclip factories were built. So why wouldn't he be able to buy more paperclips with the same money? You see, in sound money, the money itself becomes the investment vehicle into the total economic power of everything that uses that money. No need to screw around with index funds: In real money, that happens automatically thanks to market forces.

>>60871211
>I don't see a problem with that.
A currency needs to be used. As soon as people see it primarily as a vehicle to make gains less people will accept it as payment.

>>60871228
>A currency needs to be used.
>>60870820

>>60871228
Wrong. The more Monero rises, the more people will be interested, the more people will want to acquire it, the more people will accept Monero as payment.

>>60871236
By your logic I could also just go into a store and demand that they let me pay through giving them a 0.002% ownership of my house

>>60871241
Is saving money in Monero using Monero, or not?

>>60871241
if financialization was advanced enough to allow for such things to be done easily, yes that could happen. The only problem is they don't know much about your house, so they can't judge it's value too well, that's why we use money and not barter, but otherwise, yes.

>>60871236
This.

>>60871245
>Owning a house is using it

>>60871247
>Yes people should be paid in inklings of home ownership

>>60871250
>Owning a house is using it
If you live in it, literally yes. Even if you just own it, still yes. You're storing wealth.
>Yes people should be paid in inklings of home ownership
Not should be. If Monero because popular enough, they might very well want to accept that as payment because they want to acquire Monero.

>>60871254
>If you live in it
Not what we discussed because that's what you regularly use a house for. The regular use case for currency is to spend it.
>If Monero because popular enough, they might very well want to accept that as payment because they want to acquire Monero.
To think popularity can only be reached by ngu is absurd. To assume that people will want to spend their appreciating good is even worse.

nice to see the moonfag is still shitting up the thread daily
truly this administrations hardest working federal agent

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>THE FEDS WANT TO PUMP OUR ANONYMOUS INTERNET MONEY TO THE MOON BECAUSE... THEY JUST HATE OUR WHOLESOME BAKE SALES, OKAY!?

>>60871250
>>Owning a house is using it
What is your point?

Simple question: Is saving money in Monero using Monero, or not?

>>60871275
>moonfag is still shitting
That would be your OP shitting up the thrrad with his spamposts which nobody reads nor likes.

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>Monero!?
>You can't just stack Monero!
>It's only for spending!

Watching bakecels get BTFO is beautiful. Brings a tear to my eye

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FYI moonfags use the word "saving" as a euphemism for hoarding, they expect these "savings" to 100x just like tradfi savings totally do all the time.

In any case, saving money without an economy to spend it in is pointless. And an economy requires stimulatory spending to maintain and grow it.

If everyone hoards Monero like a dragon guarding gold, then it becomes little more than a static collectible. There's no circulation, no feedback loop of trade, no network effect of businesses earning and spending it back out. In other words, you can't build a living economy out of locked vaults. A healthy economy requires velocity, when XMR changes hands it creates further demand for goods and services, incentivizes greater productivity and, crucially, builds trust in the currency itself. That trust then draws in yet more participants, compounding into a genuine ecosystem. If Monero is only "good" for hoarding then it never graduates from speculation to money and becomes just another dead-end asset whose sole function is waiting for a greater fool.

Stimulatory spending is therefore what breathes life into the Monero economy, every merchant payment, freelance job or peer-to-peer trade further underscores its role as digital cash. Hoarding, by contrast, starves the system: it delays adoption, discourages merchants and reinforces the perception that Monero is merely an investment stock instead of a working currency. Without active use, the "Monero economy" shrinks to a slogan.

So yes, saving has its place but saving without an economy to spend in is just a slow form of self-sabotage, so right now during this bootstrapping phase we all gotta spend like crazy.


Disregard moonfags and SPEDN.

Cue your autistic screeching, moonies!

>>60871309
>40 minutes and counting
Nice to see you avoid this simple question.

I bet he won't give a straightforward, simple answer to that. Wait for the thread to get archived and the question to be buried. Lol.

For the record, I am not a "moonfag", but I do see the Monero's price increase necessary, in order for its miners to be properly incentivized, and the Monero block chain properly secured against 9 block, or more reorgs.

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>>60871445
>I do see the Monero's price increase necessary

No shit. The issue here is that moonfags want to use scummy shitcoin marketing tactics to lure in unsuspecting rubes and use them for exit liquidity.

You also get NGU with growing organic demand for XMR as digital cash. But that requires time and a lot of hard work, which moonfags are severely allergic to.

>>60871420
Agree to an extent, but monero isn't useful to me because I can buy coffee with it, it's useful because it's like a bank account no one can seize or know about that can transfer value anywhere in the world in seconds. what's important to me is adoption in the sense of people transferring value with each other using xmr. it can but does not necessarily need to involve using xmr as cash for every day purchases.
BTC doesn't work not because it's not used for payments, but because it's not fungible or private, so youll have your wealth seized or you'll get wrench attached sooner or later

One knows that are enemies are failing when they have to up the fud with noise on the underwater basketweaving forum. Being paid pennies per post, just because some glownigger really thinks that just because some demographics are similar, that this place is just another plebbit will never get old. Our enemies truly are this stupid.

>>60871420
What you think the argument being made is
>Monero is only "good" for hoarding

What the actual argument being made is
>Monero is also "good" for hoarding

>>60871453
I have no connection to Mav. Not in his tg chat group or anything.

>You also get NGU with growing organic demand for XMR as digital cash.

I am with you on this point, yes.

>>60871430
>Please answer my question you already answered
No thank you

>>60871445
>Having a usable currency isn't incentive enough
Why do alls those 'free market' guys only respect the reactions of the free market when it suits them?

>>60871453
Glad to see that you get it

>>60871455
The problem with the moonfags is that they basically want the same kind of bank account but give no one a reason to ever pull out of it and then demand it'll grow more

>>60871461
The later is already the case, the moonfags push for the former

>>60871469
>>Please answer my question you already answered
>No thank you
You didn't give a straight forward answer.

Simple question: is saving money in Monero, using Monero?

Funny to see you squirming under the question tho lol

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>>60871455
>BTC doesn't work not because it's not used for payments, but because it's not fungible or private, so youll have your wealth seized or you'll get wrench attached sooner or later

Oh nigga plz, stablecoins are neither fungible nor private yet their use as digital cash has fucking exploded into the stratosphere and only keeps growing.

The BTC economy is pretty much DOA now because every baggie thinks they'll totally become millionaires soon if they just keep holding onto it.

Spending is the lifeblood of any economy. Period.

>>60868895
Thoughts on Salvium bros? I have a juicy XMR stack but I'm looking to squeeze some SAL in.

>>60871420
You literally don’t even understand the people you have been ridiculing all this time.

I honestly think you have issues with creating a theory of mind for people who disagree with you

>>60871420
Booba

>>60871453
Nobody is planning to use anyone as “exit liquidity”. When has that ever been said? And no, I’m not asking you to quote something entirely different and make 10 assumptions to believe they’re talking about exit liquidity.

>>60871483
>stablecoins are neither fungible nor private yet their use as digital cash has fucking exploded
Stablecoins aren’t even crypto. They are extensions of the banking system. They’re used because the banks used their existing infrastructure to make them easy to use. Approved things have a fast lane to adoption, obviously.

>>60871469
>The later is already the case
If you actually believe this (and aren’t just saying it for the convenience of the discussion) then you’ll have no problem saying it:

“Monero is good for hoarding”

Just say it. We’ll screen shot it, and use it against you every time in the future when you obviously make argument against that very statement.

>>60871420
Saving is hoarding. You only differentiate them through a moralizing sleight of hand. But in both cases it's deferring current pleasure for greater future reward. But I guess that's a difficult concept for druggies

>>60871420
Also SPEDN sounds like sped. It fits you

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>>60871541
Fiat saving is different because you actually build interest on it. Monero saving is truly just hoarding

>>60871557
Are you stupid? There is no way to save fiat that isn't BTFO by inflation. Inflation indexed bond ETFs maybe. But you don't need to earn interest on your Monero if it's not being kiked by inflation.

>>60871453
>The issue here is that moonfags want to use scummy shitcoin marketing tactics to lure in unsuspecting rubes
I think increasing the security budget is more important than the tactics we use to get there. Whether the community pumps the price with their own private capital, through growing the grey market, or shills it to moonfags isn't any of my concern as long as it works and it doesn't change the value proposition of XMR (PoS, Hybrid PoS, switching algorithms, etc would do this so I'm not suggesting that)
I'm not a fan of maverick but if he got 1 person to buy XMR instead of some other shitcoin then he's not the enemy.

>>60871571
If you value economic reality over moral purity then you need to kill yourself

Ah great, another 1000 posts of spend-save false dichotomy... Keeeeeeeep talking bakecels.
>What? You stack 'neros? That means you and nobody will ever be able to spend Monero on anything ever again!
Ok bakecel.

>>60871483
>stablecoins are neither fungible nor private
In those shitholes, for average person, they are. Authorities have not caught on yet. USDT is popular because it's just digital dollar without the banking bullshit, which is even more bullshit in shitholes.
What bitcoin baggies think is irrelevant.
>Spending is the lifeblood of any economy.
Okay, stacking Monero doesn't prevent you from spending.

>>60871529
He thinks if we stack 'neros to increase the price we're somehow going to rug Monero to zero like it's a jeet token on Solana.

>>60871557
Wait a sec, so if I can make gains by putting my fiat in an interest account, how come it's possible I spend any of it? How come it's possible that anyone can spend any money ever? Bakecels told me that can never ever happen, nobody would ever spend if the number goes up on their account. Checkmate bakecels.

>>60871571
This. Bakecels prefer the honor of nice sounding words over the honor of securing Monero.

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>>60871529
>Nobody is planning to use anyone as “exit liquidity”. When has that ever been said?

lol Michael Saylor has never explicitly said so either. Yet we all know its true.


>>60871535
>Stablecoins aren’t even crypto.

Nice technicality, bro. The point is that a lack of privacy and fungibility does not preclude use as digital cash if the spender considers it an acceptable trade off.


>>60871541
>Saving is hoarding. You only differentiate them through a moralizing sleight of hand. But in both cases it's deferring current pleasure for greater future reward.

Gee, that sure is a clever bit of wordplay but it blurs an important distinction: Saving is part of a functioning economy, you defer spending *now* so that you can spend or invest into something productive *later*. Savings end up in banks, loans, businesses or even just future consumption, all of which eventually cycle back into circulation. Hoarding, by contrast, is dead money, coins locked away indefinitely, neither fueling commerce nor being invested in growth, it's economic hibernation with no defined spring.

Calling both the same because they involve "deferral" misses the point, one is purposeful participation in an economy, the other is full scale withdrawal from it. So no, "saving is hoarding" is not just a semantic trick, it's actually a false equivalence. Saving defers spending to eventually rejoin the cycle while hoarding defers it forever and starves the system in the process. Without that distinction, you can't explain why one sustains economies and the other suffocates them.

>>60871571
Agreed.

>>60871634
>lol Michael Saylor has never explicitly said so either. Yet we all know its true.

Irrelevant. Nobody brought up saylor in this convo but you.

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>>60871571
>Whether the community pumps the price with their own private capital, through growing the grey market, or shills it to moonfags isn't any of my concern as long as it works and it doesn't change the value

Just pump my bags, bro!

>>60871309
>>60871430
>>60871475
>>60871482
One hour plus and counting. Lol.

Bakecels avoid this question like vampires avoid onion.

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>>60871655
>>Irrelevant. Nobody brought up saylor in this convo but you.

Very relevant. Moonfags are textbook Saylorite opportunists who just want to get rich quick without effort and will parrot as many bullshit marketing/FUD narratives as necessary to achieve that goal, all under the guise of totally caring about Monero and the mission.

>>60871667
>Moonfags are textbook Saylorite opportunists
You are babbling about your own pet Strawman. Nobody in this thread is saying we should pump and dump XMR.

Also insane levels of mindbrokenness on your part that you keep seething on his name over and over and over and over and...

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>>60871670
>Nobody in this thread is saying we should pump and dump XMR.

lol of course they're not actually going to say that.

>>60871690
So you are working purely on your assumptions that some anons in this thread are saylorites and that you have to banish them?

>>60871703
>you have to banish them?

Not banish, they're useful for keeping the thread bumped. Easily ignored otherwise.

>>60871718
But you do keep reply to them. Why not ignore them, as you say, easily?

>>60871722
>But you do keep reply to them. Why not ignore them, as you say, easily?

Sometimes I just feel like chiming in.

>>60871718
Too bad for you that anyone coming into this thread is more likely to become a moonchad after seeing bakecels btfo'd with common sense.

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>>60871741

Uh oh!

>>60871657
If the security budget pumps with it, I also don't care if some people get rich in the process. Rich people spend more than poor people, so people more interested in growing the spending economy (bakecels) shouldn't care either.

It’s funny that the bakecel argument boils down to this concern about “exit liquidity”. It’s not really even about the bakecel economy, because obviously having a higher Monero market cap and richer holders would directly translate to a larger Monero economy.

No, they care about “exit liquidity”. Which is essentially just a euphemism for a large draw down of the price of the token. But if spending is all that matters, why do you care about exit liquidity? All of the ideological miners and spenders won’t be swayed by a little -50% dip right? What do they care about something as meaningless and fleeting as price?

It’s almost like a big red candle has psychologically scarred you in some way. Michael Saylor is personally responsible for your declining mental state somehow. You literally have crypto PTSD.

XMR doesn't even need to go up that much to attract miners. I'll compare a few coins here just to see what we're looking at
@575, our security budget would match bitcoin cash
@873, our security budget would match Litecoin
@7400, our security budget would match dogecoin

We don't even need to get to 10k

>>60871883
>@7400, our security budget would match dogecoin

>jfc tfw even dogecoin has greater sec budget than xmr

>>60871883
Just considering what Monero’s enemies are/are likely to be, I don’t think Litecoin is a good comparison goal for our security budget.

Dogecoin should be the minimum expectation

>>60871475
>You didn't give a straight forward answer.
If you can't understand simple comparisons you shouldn't be allowed to handle any amount of money

>>60871536
You can use monero to keep money. If you treat it primarily as a storage of wealth it'll lose value because of a violation of its purpose.

>>60871947
>>You didn't give a straight forward answer.
>If you can't understand simple comparisons you shouldn't be allowed to handle any amount of money

STILL avoiding to answer LMAO

Simple question: is saving money in XMR coins using Monero, or not?

I will help you out. Pick one:

Simple answer-A: Yes, saving money in XMR is using Monero. (Optional: give your reasoning)

Simple answer-B: No, saving money in XMR is NOT using Monero. (Optional: give your reasoning)

But I know that you will fail to give a simple, straightforward, no-greentext answer, because you are not arguing in good faith.

>>60871971
>STILL avoiding to answer LMAO
No, I already told you retards three generals ago: There is nothing wrong with keeping *some* money in your bank account so you always have liquid funds. There is something wrong with using your currency as an investment. You claim to do the former but aim to do the latter. Monero already can do the former so none of you would need to advocate for change if you wanted to do the latter.
>But I know that you will fail to give a simple, straightforward, no-greentext answer, because you are not arguing in good faith.
I just gave you the most precise answer you can have. I can make it even simpler for you: It depends on how you 'save'. Any reduction beyond that would be an oversimplification. Are you asking for an oversimplification (meaning: Are you asking for a further reduction)?

>>60871883
>We don't even need to get to 10k

It'll go beyond $10K if the circular economy grows large enough, circulating XMR = locked up XMR that's not available for sale. There's your fucking hoarding. >>60871971


>Simple question: is saving money in XMR coins using Monero, or not?

Simple question: what's the difference between saving and investing/speculating?

>>60871988
>Monero already can do the former
So your answer is Simple answer-A. Got it.

>advocate for change
I am not advocating for any change to Monero's consensus mechanism, you skitzo. I am advocating for encouraging people to bug and hold Monero in their own noncustodial wallets so that we might increase the XMR marketcap and thus its sec budget.

Meanwhile we can all keep using XMR as a medium of exchange and pay for shit. I really don't advocate against it.

>>60872007
>So your answer is Simple answer-A. Got it.
Wrong, that's why I already made it easier on you.
>I am advocating for encouraging people to bug and hold Monero in their own noncustodial wallets so that we might increase the XMR marketcap and thus its sec budget.
So you're advocating for people to use the currency as an investment, not circulating it and not using it as an medium of exchanging wealth? Then you are advocating for change.
>I really don't advocate against it.
The mindset you'll foster sadly will be used against using XMR as an universal equivalent. It'll be seen as a means of getting wealth, not transferring it. If we assume the vast majority of market participants are acting (if we don't assume that we don't need to argue about prices or any scenario and its logical conclusions at all) rationally they would not spend XMR if it's appreciating in value unless two cases occur:
A. They need more liquid funds
B. They can purchase something else that is deemed a more worthwhile investment
That means Monero would move away from being considered a currency even though on a technical and technological level it would still be considered a currency. The monetary valuation of Monero would be entirely built on its previous monetary value and not some inherent characteristics (private, anonymous, decentralized, exchange medium etc).

>>60872046
>>So your answer is Simple answer-A. Got it.
>Wrong, that's why I already made it easier on you.
So your answer is: Simple answer-B: No, saving money in XMR is NOT using Monero.

>>60871883
1k: We're safu.
10k: We're gucci.
100k: We're boss.
It really is simple as.

Yes, you can spend monero to buy things.
Yes, you can keep your life savings in Monero.
Yes, Monero is an investment that will make you rich.
But you have to buy monero.

I love saving Monero.
I don’t intend to spend it anytime soon.
I want my wealth to be private and permissionless.
I know that by holding my Monero, I’m contributing to the security of the network.

>>60872064
Wrong, please consult >>60871988, especially the second paragraph.

>>60871189
That's Keynesian shit, this is the ancap, Austrian economics coin, not the flat earth economics coin.

>My nigga just can't simply give a straightforward answer lmaooo

>>60871988
>It depends on how you 'save'
Kek. If you “save” up for an entire tray of cookies, that’s good!! But if you “save” to keep your wealth private and permissionless, THATS A BAD MOONFAG

>>60872082
>>My nigga just can't simply give a straightforward answer lmaooo

>>60872004

Simple question: what's the difference between saving and investing/speculating?

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Each monero in your wallet is basically Monero-chan worship points you're staking.

The argument that inflation is 'good' because it drives 'consumption' was debunked decades ago by the Austrian school of economics, in favor of savings for later capital investment that increases productivity.
The promotion of inflation and consumism over saving and investing is the reason why the masses remain poor

>>60871228
Gold and Silver were commonly accepted as a store of value AND a currency, before the state forced their worthless papers through central banking.

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>>60872113
Many are saying this.

>>60871228
Money not spent now is money that will be spent in the future in goods that require a bigger investment like capital goods.

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>>60872119
>The argument that inflation is 'good' because it drives 'consumption' was debunked decades ago by the Austrian school of economics, in favor of savings for later capital investment that increases productivity.
>The promotion of inflation and consumism over saving and investing is the reason why the masses remain poor

Go tell the Japs that deflation is good for the economy.

>Under deflation, the value of cash increases as time passes. In such a situation, Japanese companies began to cut wages, research and development, and other investments, opting to hold onto cash instead. This tendency, coinciding with the acceleration of the aging population, gradually diminished the competitiveness of the economy and the potential growth rate of the country.[11] The Bank of Japan (BoJ) and the Japanese government have focused on halting the deflation and eventually achieving the 2% inflation target since the early 2000s. However, as deflation persisted, the traditional monetary policy of setting low interest rates to stimulate investment and consumption, which typically causes inflation, became ineffective. This ineffectiveness arose because a nominal rate of 0% effectively meant a positive real rate due to the increasing value of cash. This phenomenon is known as the zero lower bound.

>The global inflation surge from 2021 to 2023 finally helped Japan reach an inflation rate of above 2%. However, while other major economies focus on suppressing inflation by raising interest rates, Japan aims to firmly establish inflation by maintaining low rates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Decades

>>60871420
That's pure Keynesian bullshit, read some Rothbard

>>60869070
Raise the price, raise the hashrate. It's the only way.

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Devs just released the Monero staking reward tiers. Pic related.

>>60872081
Please consult the response to the last greentext in >>60872046

>>60872082
>I want an oversimplication

>>60872086
You could just as easily do that in BTC. If you thought Monero would be good for 'keeping your wealth private and permissionless' you wouldn't need to spend your time here in this general convincing us not to change anything since it's apparently already good as is.

>>60872091
>Simple question: what's the difference between saving and investing/speculating?
Saving is done to make sure you have liquid funds and can react to short term financial problems that need quick solutions (for example getting your car repaired). Investing is done to amass more wealth by betting that the good you invested in will appreciate in value. You'll put as much money into your investments as you can if you already built up savings to the point of being fairly secure.
Both are good but XMR is for spending and to a degree saving (the amount you should save in XMR will increase as its acceptance rises), investing would lead to XMR not being used as a currency anymore and therefore its value being completely arbitrary so both those who want an investment and those who want a currency would lose in this scenario.

>>60872119
I don't argue against saving or investing, I'm telling you to keep the currency a currency.

>>60872127
The currencies were based on a specific amount of the metals being present. That means that the monetary value was derived from there being something useful in them. The usefulness of XMR is in its transactional qualities not it being considered a storage of wealth.

>>60872146
You're missing the word 'probably'. Also building an economy on the possibility of spending happening later is absurd and precisely what we are trying to exit currently.

>>60872170
I don't mind the price raising as long as it won't be treated as an investment. Moonfags want to treat it as an investment.

>>60871634
Stable coins aren't even cash, because cash has to be private.
Using bank accounts is not cash.
Using stablecoins is just like using bank accounts, hell they can even be frozen with the push of a button.
Stablecoins are NOT cash.

>>60872151
>not spending money on useless labor that doesn't pay off better than holding onto that money is bad, actually

>>60872067
First Monero has to be SOUND money, and it can't be if it can't even secure it's own network, how can it secure my savings from the state?

>>60872173
BTW if you're wondering how to stake, it's very simple. Monero is one of the leading coins when it comes to tech, so it's not surprising they came up with a revolutionary staking tech too. All you have to do is have the coins in your wallet. That's it! The market figures out the rest.

>>60872190
Stablecoin usage relies entirely on authorities in shitholes not having caught up with the chain analytics yet.

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>>60872190
>Stable coins aren't even cash, because cash has to be private.
>Using bank accounts is not cash.
>Using stablecoins is just like using bank accounts, hell they can even be frozen with the push of a button.
>Stablecoins are NOT cash.

kek

>>60872151
The nip economy is dead not because of deflation but because government taxing and over spending, deflation is a symptom of their fucked up situation

>>60872181
>The usefulness of XMR is in its transactional qualities not it being considered a storage of wealth.
It's useful to commit tax fraud and hide my money from the state preying eyes.

>>60872004
True, but 2 things come to mind
1. I don't think it's fair to expect the black market to figure out how to grow by $130 billion, Which would put XMR around 7600. That's a whole lot of cookies and chargering bricks (I don't actually know if that's how it works. Pls no bully)
2. It shouldn't have to when there's an entire community with various amounts of spare funds lying around.

>>60872233
Hello officer, aren't you normally on /g/ arguing everyone concerned with privacy is a pedo?

>>60872208
Still not cash, what's the difference from it being a QR payment or POS payment?
And is from my country, yes I'm Bolivian.
Y se muy bien la mierda que está pasando aquí.
Y sabes qué? El gobierno ya dicto una normativa para que los exchanges den la información de todas transacciones al organismo de investigación financiera.
Crees que la gente usa wallets descentralizadas? La gente usa Binance para hacer esos pagos.
Las stablecoins NO SON EFECTIVO/CASH.

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>>60872206
Oh, too risky for life savings?
[Monero-chan color switch special powa!]
Lucky for you, Monero is also an investment! You don't invest in fully completed things, right? You always take a certain risk when investing. Okay, don't put the life savings... yet. Put the investments! Why would you not invest in the only internet money that will fulfill all the fundamental properties of sound money (including anonymity!) once it gets going? All they need it capital to get things going.

>>60872173
if monero stays at this low security budget, then it will made to get a proof of stake (finality layer). Monero is already getting DNS checkpointing which really is a disgrace that lowers its anarchistic nature (instead of relying on proof of work, now we have to obey DNS computers that dictate the correct chain).

What do bakecels think about this?

I can't believe how cucked this coin has become

>>60872181
>Saving is done to make sure you have liquid funds and can react to short term financial problems that need quick solutions (for example getting your car repaired).
So you are saying that you have at most 10k USD saved up? And you limit yourself saving money to at most ~10k USD amount (about the car repair), because going above that limit would be speculating/investing and is a no-no according to you?

Like, really? This is your financial literacy?

nigga even the concept of "emergency fund" is having a year's salary in your bank account savings.

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>>60872242
>>1. I don't think it's fair to expect the black market to figure out how to grow by $130 billion, Which would put XMR around 7600. That's a whole lot of cookies and chargering bricks (I don't actually know if that's how it works. Pls no bully)

There's not too much to figure out: give consumers a compelling reason to want to go shopping on unregulated XMR markets and they'll be lining up to buy your bags. This is exactly what happened in 2011 with the launch of Silk Road, hordes of normies suddenly needed BTC to go score some gear.

Except in the case of DNMs, only a fraction of the population are recreational drug users. Conversely, darknet grey markets selling legal goods at sub-retail prices should appeal to a *much* broader selection of consumers.

Want to help make that happen? Encourage entrepreneurship and spending rather than Saylorite shilling and hoarding, tell all your dodgy pals and assorted hustlers about the money they potentially stand to make by smuggling legal shit into the country and undercutting the white market.

Neroshop is launching soon, this will enable pretty much anybody to open run a darknet storefront safely and securely. All we gotta do is spread the word and let greed do its thing.


>>60872246
>Still not cash, what's the difference from it being a QR payment or POS payment?

Semantics.

>>60872353
>Semantics
Are you retarded?
Stable coins are as far from being cash than a POS payment is.
There's no semantics here, this is a hard reality

You Monero stack is:
- Monero ready to spend for the circular economy.
- Your savings.
- A stake in securing monero.
- An investment.
- Findom worship points to Monero-chan.

>>60872318
Where are you on the citadel? If you don't even have a sui stack in your wallet, you do not have enough stake to complain. Oops!

Millions must stack 'neros.

>>60872366
he thinks paypal is cash, the same way stable coins are "cash"

>>60872366

Whatever you want to call them, people are spending them on goods & services regardless.

>>60872376
Why not use CBDCs then?

>>60872380
>Why not use CBDCs then?

Normies probably will when its made super convenient for them.

>>60872309
>DNS checkpointing
>PoS
It is unironically over for Monero if these happen. Remember the years you guys spent making fun of Zcash for going proof of semitism? You fucks are so opposed to ASICs or long term saving in XMR or god forbid miners making a profit that you're willing to torpedo your own chain over it.

So bakecels don't even know what cash actually means

>>60872431
yeop.

https://xcancel.com/xenumonero/status/1960134073130635452#m

Also this one: >>60866262

>>60872445
Can we get a bakecel opinion on these two? (if they can manage to give a straight and simple answer once lmafao

>>60872431
I swear if things keep going this way, Zcash will be more cash than monero

Bakecels are going to make monero the betamax of cryptocurrencies

>>60872445
>>60872454
Congrats to OP who, along with the devs like Howard, psyopped the Monero community so hard that it is now adopting the central banking approach to finance: "he who has the gold makes the rules".

>>60872461
>OP who, along with the devs like Howard, psyopped the Monero community so hard
Indeed. I can't believe the OP defended some nonsensical point about how

> Monero mining should be like
flushing your toilet
> Something you do
Without expecting financial compensation

---

Nigga this is a Proof of Work, chain. Financial compensation is the name of the game.

>>60872309
As a temporary solution, it's fine. There's nothing stopping the devs from running their own BIND-9 servers on cock.li.

>>60872473
>As a temporary solution
If something's shown with Monero, they never stay a "temporary solution". MoneroPulse is still here: https://monero.stackexchange.com/questions/679/what-is-moneropulse

I bet the newer DNS checkpointing will be made a staple of Monero protocol and its default node configs.

>>60872431
As I understand it: PoS is not happening. DNS checkpoints will happen as a short term stop gap. They already existed in Monero's codebase for years as a backup for exactly these type of crises. They will be opt in. Big pools will opt in. They checkpoint 2 blocks behind the tip. 3/4 quorum of domains. So if anyone suddenly dumps 10 blocks, it won't work. Does not prevent selfish mining though.

Fee increase seems to be on the table, IDK for sure.

More info on MoneroPulse: https://docs.getmonero.org/infrastructure/monero-pulse/

>>60872488
>Big pools will opt in.
How will p2pool opt in to that? The p2pool daemon will enable it by default in the newer releases?

>>60872505
I think it's the node's job. P2Pool guide recommends disabling it in node config right now. They'll need to change the guide.

>>60872488
>we are handing over consensus to cloudflare as a stopgap to prevent centralized control of the chain

You understand how ridiculous this is, right? If Bitcoin was doing this, saying "Google will be the ultimate arbiter in case of chain splits" you would be having a field day with them.

>>60872309
>proof of stake (finality layer)
Basically dead. No one is doing that when this is happening
>>60869306

It looks like we're getting uncle blocks/publish or perish instead https://github.com/monero-project/research-lab/issues/144

>>60872330
>This is your financial literacy?
No, it's relative to your regular necessary spending habits and being able to maintain what you need to continue your operations.

>>60872431
>You fucks are so opposed to ASICs
Both would kill XMR on the spot.

>>60872647
PoS is centralizing by definition. Monero had ASICs before and did perfectly fine. The two are nowhere near the same.

>>60872660
>When we weren't targeted ASICs were fine
Now they wouldn't be

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>>60872607
DNS is not Cloudflare. We're handing it to authoritative DNS servers thanks to DNSSEC. This is not a solution, this is life support.
>you would be having a field day with them
Damn right. And they should be having a field day with us right now because we're in such a pathetic situation. For years, the community has failed Monero by not evangelizing positive price action. It's time to change this. Monero's future is as follows: Buy Monero or die.

Where are you on the Citadel? Do you at least have a suicide stack? If not, you have failed Monero. If any of you complainers have less than 20 XMR, do not even talk to me.

The entire future of freedom depends on you buying Monero. Nothing else matters. Those who do not buy Monero will deserve their fate.

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>>60872676
Maybe you niggers should have thought of that before painting yourselves into a corner while trying to find fantasyland.

Regardless, your other options are PoS centralization, DNS centralization, or no security. Better to try for it, or merge mine with litecoin, or slowly transitioning to ASIC, rather than sit around afraid of the government somehow being on the ball with hardware acquisitions for the first time ever.

Like really? Describe to me how the US government is going to approve of and acquire a bunch of new ASICs faster than any private enterprise when they have never been able to do that once in their history.

>>60872703
Please explain pic related then in further detail.

>>60872716
DNSSEC is a way to sign the DNS records to make sure they come from the authoritative name servers and not he DNS you're using like Cloudflare, Google, etc. Then in turn the domains are spread out across different top level domains so they are on different authoritative servers. It's shit but not single point of failure.

>>60872716
>Maybe you niggers should have thought of that before painting yourselves into a corner while trying to find fantasyland.
Yeah we should've just embraced ASICs and be permanently insecure!
>slowly transitioning to ASIC
How many times do you need to be told? If we embrace ASICs now the first ones to have over 50% of them will be the feds.
>Describe to me how the US government is going to approve of and acquire a bunch of new ASICs faster than any private enterprise when they have never been able to do that once in their history.
Easy:
>Mr President, this crypto currency we've tried to suppress for years and are currently attacking through our eastern chuddie pawn is now moving to ASICs. If we buy most of them we can completely compromise the network at a fraction of the current costs.

>>60872744
Why would they do that? They compromise monero and get monero 2.0 with a different algorithm in no time.

>>60872761
>Different algorithm
>New ASICs
>Immediately compromised again
ASICs only work *before* you're targeted

>>60872744
If compromising Monero via a 51% attack, and not just regulating it off all exchanges, was currently on their agenda, they would have already nuked your entire network via server rentals, given how much damage a single autist with a budget has done.

They aren't waiting with baited breath for the second you switch to ASICs. We're talking about government drones like in the postal service, the dmv, the tax office. Switch to ASICs and get out ahead of them and in a few months you'll have too much of a lead, while their government assessment is still another 8 months from being completed.

>>60872765
You are completely talking out your ass as an excuse to keep on an insecure algo, or worse, switch to PoS which the feds can easily take over at any time via financial jewry.

>>60872765
Wut? The fuck is that strawman supposed to mean? You can literally switch back and forth between various flavours of ASIC/no-ASIC.

>>60872768
my nigga you are speaking some actual sense here.

does this thread have any actual influence over the decisions the devs will make?

>>60872703
>If any of you complainers have less than 20 XMR, do not even talk to me
Based.
This goes for anyone that didn't buy at least 0.5 XMR this year.

I think the DNS checkpoint does not have to be a dev thing. It can also be a miner conspiracy. The pools, mad about their profits stolen by orphan blocks, can institute a system like this among themselves.

>>60872768
>with a budget
In the 100s of thousands per day and a completely dysfunctional company
>They aren't waiting with baited breath for the second you switch to ASICs.
We will need to announce this way before the switch happens, they will take notice of it and they will clear some funds for it.
>like in the postal service, the dmv, the tax office.
Ah yes, Agent Smith from the FBI is the same as some random first gen immigrant delivering your mail
>in a few months you'll have too much of a lead
If we switched today. How about you try that?
>You are completely talking out your ass as an excuse to keep on an insecure algo
Feel free to tell me how you'll tell all of the regular XMR users how their crypto currency will change without letting the govt know.
>switch to PoS which the feds can easily take over at any time via financial jewry.
Ah yes but buying single purpose centralized hardware is too difficult

>>60872770
>You can literally switch back and forth between various flavours of ASIC/no-ASIC.
And then face the same problems as before (no ASICs) or the problems ASICs would bring. Also with every switch you'd alienate your current and potential miners. If I saw some cryptocurrency that got psyoped into switching to ASICs (even though we had enough arguments against them already) and then switching back just a few months or years later I'd lose all trust in it immediately. It'd just be a war of nutrition (in this case money and CPUs) against the government - a war you'd lose or at the absolute best case (the government losing interest) have a phyrrhic victory.
The one thing we need is miners. If we were to encourage them through 'financial incentives' they'd only stay as long as not another currency moons. This means we'd all be in a healthier position if the literal retards that complain about mining at a loss would shut up for a second and realize that all other solutions would hurt xmr in the long run. Of course they won't since they are not into Monero

>>60872768
>ASICs
Unless we're going back to cryptonight, OR we're going with the local PoW idea, we're asking to get rekt. Our block rewards are not enough to entice anyone running a $4k s21 to do anything except ruin the chain for fun

>>60872815
Okay they go back to cryptonight, or go with merge mining with litecoin where all the hardware is already distributed and not under government control.

>>60872809
>buying single purpose centralized hardware is too difficult
with PoS they can use exchanges to manipulate and short the currency to acquire more 10 years from now. They can do it at any time and once they have an additional % of control they have it forever.

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>>60872789
>does this thread have any actual influence over the decisions the devs will make?

No.

>>60872809
>wants people to wear out their hardware and spend money on electricity without any financial gain in return
>ignores the free-rider problem
>tries to predict the future instead of letting the market dictate the direction
>ignores the reality where his idealistic model of mining at a loss ALREADY fails
>thinks he's not the retard here
Uh-huh, sure buddy. That's some insane levels of copium right here.
Adaptability is part of the game, you cannot predict what will happen and what will not. But one thing is certain: what you suggest doesn't work. It's not an opinion, it's not a guess, it's a fact, and you're not gaslighting anyone here into believing that it's not.

>>60872822
Question: Do you think we could now, without any prior notable debate about this, switch from randomx to some asic-reliant algo in less than a month?
I don't think so and I believe anyone who ever had to manage some kind of project or had to rework some company should know that. Even simple company rebrands take longer despite them more often than not just being a logo change.
I'll continue to ask further questions later on as I feel any feasible scenario in which ASICs would be introduced would fail immediately.

However I leave you and everyone with this: If you all so desperately want ASICs and claim they would make Monero so much more secure, why don't just fork the code and keep the privacy and anonymity-conserving stuff and just use some ASIC algo? Do you all think the market couldn't prefer the 'better' coin? Are you all technologically incompetent? Why are you here to change XMR if those changes have already been ruled out?

>>60872856
You are operating on completely baseless assumptions. It took the US government 16 years to do anything substantial about Bitcoin. They aren't going to magically get their shit together and set up their own ASIC farms in a matter of months. If they were, you'd already be dead from them renting CPUs. You niggers and your dumb fuck fantasies are the reason why Monero is in such a bad spot now.

>>60872851
>wants people to wear out their hardware
Wearing out your CPU would be a great task. Don't overclock it and you're fine.
>spend money on electricity without any financial gain in return
I consider 'having a usable currency for the digital age that doesn't violate every non-normie threat model' as a financial gain.
>>ignores the free-rider problem
I'm aware of it. Having ASICs wouldn't help with that.
>>tries to predict the future instead of letting the market dictate the direction
The marketplace of ideas clearly was against Monero not being ASIC-resistant.
>>ignores the reality where his idealistic model of mining at a loss ALREADY fails
Because the proposed solutions would also fail immediately. If I'm already stabbed I'd not drink poison nor would I shoot myself.
>>thinks he's not the retard here
I think that's acceptable after I had to tell you for approximately the 100th time that ASICs don't work when you're already targeted. In any scenario the relevant threat actor can easily get ahold of more ASICs than the new miners, especially since not every miner would buy ASICs.
>Adaptability is part of the game
Except that if we 'adapt' into going with ASICs we're painting an even larger target on our backs. ASICs only work while you're not being targeted.
>you cannot predict what will happen and what will not
Correct, but I can tell you what an APT could easily do
>what you suggest doesn't work
What you suggest won't work.
>gaslighting
That's not even what that word means.

>>60872872
>Funny to see you squirming under the question tho lol
question

>>60872893
It's not squirming, it's that you shit out baseless assumption after baseless assumption to such an extent that it's getting not to be worth it. The reason I don't just fork the network is same reason everyone else in this thread doesn't. Because you need the devs on board. What they decide goes, even if it's stupid as fuck, all the users follow them regardless. I don't just fork it because I don't own the getmonero domain or control distribution of the Monero GUI & CLI software. Fucking retard

>>60872789
>does this thread have any actual influence over the decisions the devs will make?
This is the dev speaking. We are closely monitoring this thread. We will pick the debate winners and apply their wishes. Keep fighting the good fight.

>>60872893
And you don't have to do an entire switch in 4 weeks to avoid your imaginary fantasy of Agent Smith breaking down your doors. Your question is based on a false assumption and only deserves the response of "you're stupid"

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>>60872856
>If you all so desperately want ASICs and claim they would make Monero so much more secure, why don't just fork the code and keep the privacy and anonymity-conserving stuff and just use some ASIC algo? Do you all think the market couldn't prefer the 'better' coin? Are you all technologically incompetent? Why are you here to change XMR if those changes have already been ruled out?

lol exactly. Just fork XMR into this supposedly superior version and reap all the rewards.

But of course they won't, moonfags are lazy and feckless parasites who expect others to do all the hard work.

>>60872884
You just keep shooting down ideas that you don't like because of a bias towards paranoia. There's no solution that completely removes the government as a threat with potentially infinite resources, it's obvious. Everything you say is a speculation that has no real life foundation. While I agree that going full ASIC doesn't make sense because the mining rewards are simply too small compared to the hardware costs, ASICs as an addition to randomx is completely normal. You also don't want to acknowledge that the free-rider problem is not relevant when miners are getting paid well, because then it is no longer a requirement for everyone to run a miner at a loss to keep the network secure. ASICs as a mix-in also help with increasing the rewards miners are getting by eliminating botnets, while not centralizing the network too much.

>>60872926
>>60872911

>>60872911
>Because you need the devs on board.

Just convince them you're right, bro!

Oh, so now bakecels want to divide monero into two separate networks so both are easier to attack. Speaking of glowing.

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>>60872946
>Oh, so now bakecels want to divide monero into two separate networks so both are easier to attack. Speaking of glowing.

Hey, just following orders.

>This gayop tier attempt to consensus crack one of the most tightly knit ideas in both cyberspace and cypherpunk.
MONERO WINS
MINERS WIN
RANDOMX WINS
ASIC RESISTANCE WINS

>>60873036
>MINERS WIN
What do they win? What's their daily profit?