What was his problem?
>>143312514Homos
>>143312514He was knew artists and writers are whining lazy babies that would kill themselves the first chance they got so he kept them in line. That makes him an asshole for making them do their jobs.
>>143312514None. We could use more men like him working in the comic book industry today.
>>143312800i think he would fix 75% of the issues with the current industry within a week if given the opportunity
>>143312514going by that pic, acnehe was pretty based tho
>>143313168the scars look sick af
>>143312514Low doorways.
>>143312514Ngl idk too much about Marvel's history but everything I read by him has some kind of fetish horniness barely fit for children.People like to give Claremont shit but this guy was as much of a freak
>>143312579>>143312609>>143312800>>143312992It's so cute how you guys have memed him into this obscenely based John Wayne figure.
>>143313333Quads of Stupidity.
Byrne was right in that he's a "fixer". He needs to be fixing something all the time, and when there isn't anything left to fix he starts fucking with things that aren't broken.He's still incredibly based though
>>143313341he was moderately competent as an editor which makes him better than anyone editing for the big 2 in the last 10 years
>>143313333Yeah, no. His only fetish was triggering the hippie libs who worked under him and taking no shit from nobody.
>>143312992Anon, he was half the reason the industry imploded in the first place. People meme about him but comic books were good in spite of him not because of him.
>>143313394he knew what an editor does, that's more than can be said for anyone editing for marvel or dc now.
>>143313363>Byrne was right in that he's a "fixer". He needs to be fixing something all the time, and when there isn't anything left to fix he starts fucking with things that aren't broken.There may be truth in that, but Byrne needs to take a look in the mirror when he says things like that.
>>143312514he was limited by the technology of his time
>>143313443"Byrne was right" is not a phrase I say often or willfully
>>143312514Let's see, what did he do?>Held writers and artists to a deadline>Allowed for royalties>Wrote a story which helped with world building (in particular the Symbiotes)>Tried to give Kirby royalties but was only prevented from doing so by higher-ups>Attempted to broaden the audience with new titles (not revamping old ones) aimed to children>Attempted to create a separate more experimental universe not reliant on old characters>Attempted to start his own company after leaving, which is technically still around albeit a shadow stuck in holding companyThe only thing he did that was arguably wrong was the "no gays" thing but, at the time, making a bunch of characters who were largely seen as something to market to children gay would not have gone over well. This rape attempt in pic related is the closest to outright homophobia he got, and even then I'm not sure it was intended to demonize the gays. And... Uhm... Elephant in the room here, does anyone actually like how homosexuality is depicted in media now that it's socially acceptable? It usually doesn't come across as if anyone writing it in actually thinks it's normal or typical, it comes across like they're doing it for brownie points, what with the common refusal to depict gay relationship with any real problems at all and it often taking attention away from the plot, like to the point where I don't think straight relationships were ever given this much focus in anything outside of explicit romance stories.As for the stuff in the list, what is wrong with any of that? He tried and failed a few times? How is that bad? Nobody is guaranteed success, and attempts to get more readers is always a good idea. As for deadlines? I mean really? Yes, if there were no deadlines then maybe the books would be the best they could be but with a monthly schedule, of course you'll need to get things done by the deadline. Jesus Christ, it's a common practice in any industry.
>>143313817any gay superhero book just turns into a gay archie comic.
>>143312514You weren't doing your job.
What amazes me is that he started writing for DC as a teenager. How does his DC work compare to his Marvel work?
>>143313817>The only thing he did that was arguably wrong was the "no gays" thing
>>143312514Beatles?
>>143312514He was clearly some kind of mythical being.
>>143314051His Legion's great
>>143312514He was fired for exposing corporate corruption at Marvel's parent company, Cadence Industries.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdUtdZl67Ak&t=867s
>>143314286If the player doesn't start at the right point, skip to 14:27.
>>143313341Eh, he was a functional human in an era where the Marvel bullpen used to plot storylines while high on LSD. He fucked up sometimes, he took some shitty decisions but in the end he made Marvel work.
>>143313394Hi there Byrne. Kill yourself.
>>143313443Byrne can shut the fuck up. The lazy faggot who single handedly killed Marvel's chance to own the entirety of DC's iconic IP by being a retarded sperg and who literally dedicated his fucking life post-1980s to tearing down everything Shooter had ever even touched out of spite has no fucking clue what he's talking about.90% of the shit he's trying to claim was Shooter "fucking with things" was either him being given a task or problem to solve and trying to figure that out with Byrne and the other fuckwits in the Bullpen or the upper crust fighting him every step of the fucking way, or him just actively making sure they did their fucking jobs on time and didn't pull retarded faggotry out of their asses.
>>143313817>>143314081He was also following corporate mandates. He had enough clout to fight and win one big social battle in the office and given that it's widely believed that he was probably assaulted in a YMCA, he chose to win the "Let blacks be equal in comics" fight. He was always open to closet and implied fags though within the bounds of what he was already allowed to allow.New Universe was originally supposed to be a linewide revamp and he only pitched it in response to creators wanting to do their own shit and not be bogged down by old continuity anymore because he made them actually pay attention to it and keep people largely in character as much as possible, as well as concerns from corporate that it might be too intimidating for readers. Originally it was going to be a hard reboot that put the old universe aside and lowered its output massively in favor of a blank slate. They then threw temper tantrums, fought him the entire fucking time, and mangled it's resulting launch.Similarly Defiant only went down because of a Marvel hitjob fueled by people there hating him, and Valiant fucking killed itself by doing the same shit people always do once Jim leaves/is forced out, IE "Shit that Jim wouldn't let them do before."
>>143312514His ONLY mistakes were introducing the concept of "events" and wasting resources on the New Universe.
what do th beetles have to do with cartoons and comics?!??
>>143312514Severe acne
>>143313443>Byrne needs to take a look in the mirror when he says things like thatTruer words were never spoken.
>>143314286>>143314299Will definitely watch. Thanks for posting.
>>143313817>This rape attempt in pic related is the closest to outright homophobia he gotThat actually happened, you fucking idiot.
>>143313394This isn't true you can link Marvel spiralling into bankruptcy as starting from Shooter leaving as EIC. I'd actually say that the best proof of his methods were that they are the same ones used to build the MCU for better or worse.
>>143314286Huh. Interesting. Makes sense. I can't imagine anyone would get fired for making everyone do their jobs.
>>143315046>. The lazy faggot who single handedly killed Marvel's chance to own the entirety of DC's iconic IPGood DC has Heroes Marvel just a celebs with powers.
>/co/'s weekly Shooter thread LET'S GOOOOOOOO>>143312514He was literally just too good at his job as EiC. That's all it was. Most of the rest of the bullpen just couldn't handle it and they fucked him over for it.Okay fine, Secret Wars 1 and 2 were a mistake
Under Shooter you think She-Hulk would have become the whore of Babylon that she is today or Spider-Man making a deal with the Devil?
>>143316824If it sold, yes he would have
>>1433168221 was fun. 2 was just a trainwreck though.
>>143312514>What was his problem?Overreliance on formulae and editorial overreach.
>>143316878nothing marvel does now sells
>>143313363>I didn't recognize any of the charactersMe reading Shooter's Secret Wars.
>>143316977Get back to work!
>>143317036Every book that was a hit with readers while Shooter was EIC succeeded because it broke his rules while he was looking the other way and became less interesting when its "inexplicable" popularity drew his attention to it.
He did his job. Did he do it the best in hindsight? Maybe not, but at least he did his job. What the fuck does CB Cebulski do? What the fuck does Marie Javins do?
>>143312514He came in at a time where primadonna attitudes were very common and a lot of writers didn't like being told to do this or that. As time went on though it seems like he started to crack when having to deal with corporate stupidity which caused his control freak tendencies to spiral and then were exacerbated by the success of Secret Wars. Honestly it's probably good that he got fired when he did because it always reads like he would have had a nervous breakdown otherwise.
>>143317298Yeah most Shooterfags agree that post-Secret Wars was when his tenure started to collapse
>>143316878Shooter was ABSURDLY rigid with characterization. He NEVER would have allowed shit like that.
>>143317650That's nonsense. 1984-1986 might have been the best years in Marvel's entire history.
>>143314095Fuck, Wally Wood's misery is on his face in every photo of him.
>>143318001That doesn't explain why every character he wrote at Marvel was jarringly OOC.
>>143318099Bullshit.
>>143318138Read Secret Wars concurrent with the comics being published alongside it. Absolutely no one in that book is written in character or even sounds like themselves.
>>143314081It’s funny when I see people using anime or anime-type reaction images to implicitly say disparaging things about gay or trans individuals when anima is some of the queerest stuff out there
>>143316821>Good DC has Heroes Marvel just a celebs with powers.Please elaborate.
>>143312514When Jim Shooter was twelve years old, he sent a Superman comic script to DC. He invented the Parasite character. They liked it so much they bought it and hired him, not knowing his age. When he showed up, they kept him on anyway. He spent his teenage years being screamed at by Mort Weisinger. Every waking moment not at school was spent making Superman comics.That’s important Jim Shooter lore that isn’t mentioned enough in these threads. With Mort Weisinger as such a profound influence, how could he turn out any differently?
>>143318203It’s a reaction image. White supremacists on twitter use gifs of black people. Nobody gives a shit about reaction image sources except you.
>>143312514Too based
>>143316632Didn't it happen to Shooter?
>>143318007Which comics aside from Born Again?
>>143312514nothing
>>143318431Except he did turn out differently. Whatever Shooter may have done or has been said to have done which was bad or dictatorial, none of it holds a single candle up to the type of cruel bullshit Weisinger casually got up to on a daily basis.https://thecomicsdetective.blogspot.com/2012/04/woolfolk-on-weisinger.html
>>143318170Secret Wars was written for children which is why it was so popular and why it also made all those adult fans seethe.
>>143318469He's a big guy.
>>143319433For you.
>>143317642nice pic anon
>>143316698Yeah, because of him. Bankruptcy isn't instantaneous it's something that takes years if not decades for a company to achive and shooter's methods lead to the companies downfall.
>>143314095"I fell downstairs.""He fell downstairs."
>>143320328>Yeah, because of him.How?
Shooter gets proper credit for bringing structure to a company that was at the time a situation of the inmates running the asylum. The problem was that Shooter was a control freak who had to run everything, unlike an editor like Dick Giordano, who knew what worked and was willing to let creative people have their way.That need to control ran off people like Roy Thomas. And the terrible way he treated Gene Colan offsets any good work he did for Jack Kirby.
>>143320328Shooter's policies resulted in 70% market share. Marvel's bankruptcy had nothing to do at all with comics or comic sales, it was Marvel's owner at the time making too many bad investments.
>>143320503Not just owner at the time but the owner who won the bidding war for Marvel in 1989, when Shooter and his investor backers were also trying to bid for MarvelIf Shooter is blamed for Marvel's bankruptcy at all it's "he and his backers didn't have enough money to outbid Ronald O. Perelman"
>>143319411>OK so he did write them OOC, but it doesn't count because it was written for children, like all Marvel comics at the time were.You're limber, I'll give you that.
>>143312514He looks like a mafia lord. It would be fun to see him deal with Claremont's trying to shove his fetishes everywhere
>>143312514>What was his problem?Ms. Marvel (Carol) rape drama
He doesn't like bad comics
>>143316878Shooter would've never even entertained that idea.
>>143312514he was surrounded by jokers.
>>143319411Wasn't it made to to advertise toys?
>>143313341White woman detected Tell us again how working at chick fil a is like being Toby on the plantation
>>143312514He's the reason comic books still exist and marvel being the "biggest" comicbook company in the world, he's a hero
>>143313341That's cuz he is, if the word based was person it would be Jim
>>143321621lol case in point you fucking dork, you weren't even alive during his tenure, and you've made him some anti-woke Caesar.
>>143313363If he was editor in chief at the time OMD wouldn't happen and Peter would still be married to Mary Jane, I want Shooter back!
>>143321671I wish he was my dad!
>>143313394I don't belive in the slanderous lies about him anymore, I've seen enough he was the person marvel and comicbooks needed at the time
>>143320804Shooter was EIC when Marvel published a story about Carol Danvers being raped and impregnated by her own son.>>143321733This post was written to the sound of vaporwave.
>>143312514He had to wrangle artists, if you are one or know artists you know that's not easy work
>>143321787That's one foible.Want to pull up Quesada's sins?
>>143321839Are we doing whataboutism now?
>>143321862You already were
00's Marvel in a nutshell.
>>143321874What's meant to be triggering here, exactly?
>>143321869>Y-yeah? Well YOU were talking about Jim Shooter in a Jim Shooter thread!No foolin'?
>>143321839Yes, pleaseI want people to compare comics that EICs wrote while still being EICStan we already know (even if you want to debate about what he wrote)Shooter wrote Avengers, Secret Wars, Secret Wars 2, and Star BrandDeFalco wrote Thor and Fantastic Four and a few Spider-Man stuffQuesada wrote Iron Man, Daredevil Father and co-wrote OMD and wrote OMITI forget what Wolfman, Conway, and Goodwin were writing at the time they were EIC of Marvel
>>143321954>Star BrandModern marvel hates this guy with passion
>>143321885Mom doesn't want her daughter to admire a freak of nature. It implies prejudice.
>>143318764*crickets*
>>143317650I can't remember the exact story but there's one about Shooter and another guy having a meeting with corporate and being given some kind of asinine directive or something and the quote was something about how Shooter looked like he wanted to kill himself.
>>143314971This. He wasn't infallible, no one is, but his ability to reign in the talent is second to none. Most characters had their definitive stories published while he was in charge.
>>143321675Typical white women. Gotta bring up historical tyrants any time a man tells you to stop being a lazy shitter.Stop posting and go fix your daddy issues you future cat lady
>>143323530I've told that story on here before, but this time I've actually got the book on hand, so here it is, straight from the page. Sorry for the pics being blurry in places, but I got a new phone recently and The book is Marvel Comics: The Untold Story, if you're wondering. It's a good, comprehensive overview of the company from the 40s up until when it was published in 2013. Would recommend if you're at all interested in Marvel's history because there's a lot of anecdotes like this one. Though it is massively apparent in places that Howe has his favourites, and when he reaches the 00s in the last chapter or two it ""suddenly"" becomes pretty superficial and wishy-washy, with none of the insider stories or criticism the other eras got.
>>143320503>>143320569You guys are right, but too many people are way too invested in their headcanon of Marvel's bankruptcy being because of "bad comics nobody was buying", events or that one specific story they hate. They're never going to listen to the actual facts of what happened when they can view the bankruptcy as validation of 90s COMICS BAD.
>>143321787>Shooter was EIC when Marvel published a story about Carol Danvers being raped and impregnated by her own son.And as has been well documented, and explained here often enough, rape wasn't the intent of anyone working on that book, nobody realized it read like that until it was too late. It's just one of those moments in comics where something weird happened and nobody really knows how it happened.No matter how many times this story is told, the Carolfags on /co/ will keep bringing it up and talking like it was done with knowing and malicious intent.
>>143323969So who were the new characters and titles mandated by New World?
>>143324476>90s COMICS BAD.They are.>>143324635>nobody really knows how it happened.Pic related.
>>143324635The intent was to write Carol out of the book which is enough to make them seethe.
>>143325217I'm pretty sure it was the gratuitous "raped and impregnated by her own son part" that did it.
>>143324694I don't actually know. I've just flicked through the subsequent pages of the book, but there's no further mention of them I can see right now and, from memory, I don't think the book ever brings up New World's proposed titles and characters again.My guess is that, whatever those comic plans were, New World just dropped them. They were far more interested in using Marvel to try and generate feature films for a cheap buck, so I reckon they quickly switched focus from the comics side of things (which no corporate executive in history has ever cared about) after Shooter's ousting, and then spent the next couple years failing to break into Hollywood until they had to sell Marvel on to Perelman in 1988-9. That, or Shooter/DeFalco somehow managed to convince New World's management not to go through with their retarded ideas from that first meeting by either replacing the New World ideas with pre-existing Marvel characters and spin-off concepts, or getting them to drop the planned line expansion entirely.Whatever the case, Howe's book doesn't elaborate. But it's a great anecdote all the same, and a useful illustration of how corporate always fucks creative over.
>>143325290No one cared that carol was written out they were upset at the really shitty plot. It's not the only bad comic. There were a lot during shooter's time and half of them were his fault due to stupid mandates.
>>143325217>>143325311>The intent was to write Carol out of the book which is enough to make them seethe.>No one cared that carol was written out they were upset at the really shitty plot.Which way, Western shitposter?
>>143324832>They are.That's your opinion, and you can hate them all you want, they're still not the reason why Marvel went bankrupt.>Pic related.We know enough about the story's development that we know the resolution of Carol's pregnancy was a last-minute change of plot after the original plan for Avengers #200 was rejected for being too similar to another recent Marvel book. The unintentional rape implications seem to be more of an accidental effect of a rush job done by four credited writers than it being someone's fetish.>>143325311Not the same anon, but from what we see and know of Carolfags it's not an unreasonable assumption that even if there was no possible way anyone could think Marcus raped her, a lot of them would still be screeching over the idea of Carol retiring to be with a man.
>>143325554Jesus, anon, unclench your ass.
>>143325306I'm struggling to think of many new Marvel characters introduced in that late 80s period who got their own books. Speedball is the only one I can remember, and I've never heard of him being a corporate creation that was forced on Marvel.Were New World responsible for things like the Punisher and Captain America movies and the Hulk TV movies?
>>143323840Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if comics had a guy like Shooter in charge today. And then I wonder how fast they'd take to social media because their boss expected them to work or play with the rest of the universe.
>>143325609>I'm struggling to think of many new Marvel characters introduced in that late 80s period who got their own books. Speedball is the only one I can remember, and I've never heard of him being a corporate creation that was forced on Marvel.My initial thought when you asked was that it must have led to the New Universe, but then I remembered that happened just before New World bought out Marvel and when that meeting must've taken place.>Were New World responsible for things like the Punisher and Captain America movies and the Hulk TV movies?Wikipedia says that New World did the Dolph Lundgren Punisher, the last two Hulk TV movies, and then curiously, also the Generation X pilot all the way in 1996
>>143321714Why? (You) would only disappoint him.
>>143325589Sorry anon, but when Marvel keeps getting worse in every decade and we're experiencing horrors we could never have imagined, people still bitching about the 90s gets really tiresome. And Carolfags bitching about Avengers #200 like Shooter and company were intentionally trying to have her raped is getting tiresome, how many times do they need the same thing explained to them?>>143325622In this day and age an editor like that wouldn't last a week before he would be fired because of people complaining about him.
>>143325732
>>143320687claremont is one of the few people from back then who will say good things about shooter
>>143316698Marvel's spiral was inevitable when Perelman bought it in 1989, possibly even the New World sale a few years before but Perelman was an asshole corporate raider who only cared about big numbers which happened right at the time the bubble was getting started. Shooter had no effect on anything in regards to Marvel's issues.
>>143313817>The only thing he did that was arguably wrong was the "no gays" thing but, at the time, making a bunch of characters who were largely seen as something to market to children gay would not have gone over well.I do think that's a negative and definitely a bit hypocritical given his own history with "No X" stuff that he had to deal with in regards to Ferro Lad.
>>143314051I haven't gotten around to reading his second Legion run in the '70s but his original LoSH run is one of the greatest cape runs ever. The Legion was popular and had good stories prior to him but he arguably laid all the groundwork that MADE them into probably the greatest team ever after the X-Men's golden age (and even then, I'd argue the Legion's peak is basically 1b to the X-Men's 1a). The Fatal Five story is one of the all time great superhero stories.
>>143327083A whole bunch of the X-Men's DNA comes from the Legion too.
>>143316963One of the biggest fucking problems with later era Shooter things is the sheer fucking hate in the industry for him makes it hard to tell how much of his personal projects going wrong are his own fault. Like, somebody mentioned it I think but Byrne literally dedicated his life to burning down as much of what Shooter did as he could manage afterwards. So it legitimately does beg the question of how much of his final products were actually made as intended and hit the market in the way they were planned to.
>>143320503>>143324476The terrible ground level business practices and total fucking collapse of quality control that started post Shooter 100% fucking contributed. Marvel took the market share and consumer faith Shooter gave them and ended up using it to tank the industry. "Follow the Leader off a Cliff" in niche industries is a known fucking phenomena and has been for decades, the most impressive thing with comics is mainly how fucking fast it was able to happen and how badly it hit the industry between the speculator boom they intentionally fed, burning almost all public good will, and the low availability of potential competition that could survive the crash.
>>143325347Carol was always a bottom ranked character. She's D tier at least, but she was popular with some writers and fans. However, people had an issue with the storyline itself. It was tasteless.
>>143325554>even if there was no possible way anyone could think Marcus raped herhe obtained his goal by deception, which, when it results in a pregnancy, is rapeit's not hard for adults to understand
>>143312514Classic consultant behavior.He came on and fixed a bunch of broken shit. But then he kept fixing, and finding more and more "problems" until he had alienated almost everyone he needed to lead.
>>143328359>quotes the "even if", referring to a hypothetical version of the story in which events are written in a way where there would be no possible way anyone could think a rape happened>insists there would still be rapeWhy are you like this?
>>143318170Secret Wars was an interruption of continuity, if anything. You clearly haven't read any of his non-event comics.
>>143318764Practically their whole fucking line.
>>143320328That's the complete opposite of reality.
>>143323840>Most characters had their definitive stories published while he was in charge.Now this is just nonsense. Marvel's definitive stories were mostly from the 60s. The exceptions are Daredevil, X-Men, and Iron Man.
>>143323969To be fair, the post-crash era Marvel isn't really worth discussing.
>>143320433*crickets*
>>143321787>>143325290That technically doesn't happen, you absolute faggot.
>>143312514He committed the worst editorial sin. He had a few standards
>>143325554>they're still not the reason why Marvel went bankruptThey ARE the reason why all the readers left, and that IS the reason why the industry crashed.
Someone needs to e-mail Brian Cronin at CBR.com and ask him what the New World mandated 10 new titles were (or would have been).
>>143318431Mort would call Shooter up every night just to bitch at him, tell him everything he was (supposedly) doing wrong and would tell Shooter that he was simply Mort's charity case.
>>143330786The really weird and scary thing is this was probably unironically Mort's way of being nice and giving the kid a break for his family's sake and because he liked him.Mort was the kind of guy who would make writers and artists humiliate themselves to try and keep their jobs because he knew they needed it to stay afloat, and then once they'd done shit like a stupid dance for his amusement he'd fire them and laugh in their faces about how they were going to be on the street,
>>143320447I think people underestimate how divaish the writers were when he became EiC. Gerry Conway got the job (after being pissed and quitting because he thought that Wein and Wolfman backstabbed him for it) and lasted I think a couple of weeks before stepping down in favor of Goodwin.
>>143323969I actually re-listened to it (I lost all my books after moving) a few weeks ago anf it's an alright book but the author's agenda gets annoying. He spends more time on the mid-70s than anything else and it's obvious that he doesn't like Shooter. Never really talks much about his history as a writer per se and constantly tries to portray him as having a god complex that he projected into the comics he wrote which has the effect of denigrating stuff like the Korvac Saga. Although it ironically means he goes a little positive on Secret Wars II because he read it as being Shooter satirizing comic (and broader societal) trends and Howe seemed to like comics like that that he felt had "something to say" because in his mind they elevated the medium to art. Very TCJish perspective in the book.
>>143327253Right, Claremont/Cockrum UXM is basically a Legionish boom with less characters. If DC wasn't stupid the Legion would have remained one of their big books.
>>143331004Yeah, like I said, Howe's got his favourites in the 70s. I like Gerber, Englehart, Starlin, but his veneration of them gets a bit much>and it's obvious that he doesn't like Shooter. Never really talks much about his history as a writer per se and constantly tries to portray him as having a god complex that he projected into the comicsHis idea of Shooter projecting his god complex onto Secret Wars and the like is undoubtedly bullshit (not in the least because the characters he paints as "reflecting" Shooter's supposed god complex are always the villains, which raises the question of why would Shooter identify with the bad guy he's writing), but other than that, I thought he gave Shooter a fair enough shake. He writes about other Bullpen members trashtalking Shooter in interviews or spitefully celebrating his ousting, which reflects badly on those guys, and Shooter constantly going to bat for Marvel against the various corporate retards he had to deal with. Plus, the whole thrust of the 80s chapter is that Shooter undoubtedly steered Marvel to major success, and that it fell apart within just a handful of years after he was fired. That balances out the stories of Shooter shouting at people or alienating various creatives. If Howe doesn't really like Shooter all that much, at least he's not going full Gary Groth with it.
>>143318780>It's hard to find anyone willing to say nice things about Adolph Hitler or Bin Laden2012 is so very recent but also far enough away to seem quaint
>>143329014No it is but there was just less people willing to "shoot" so to speak like there was in the 70s and 80s. The Jemas and early Marvel Knights sections are good and there's probably a treasure trove of stories about Jemas alone you could ge5 if people actually talked.
>>143330865>I think people underestimate how divaish the writers were when he became EiC.Of course they do. There's always been this sort of ingrained habit where we're deluded into think we're always supposed to side with the misunderstood artists. But we don't see the behind the scenes dramas. We don't see so and so being late on his dead line for the third month in a row. We're supposed to see the company as a soul sucking idea stealing monster and the artists and writers as people being robbed of their dreams. And while editorial is certainly no saint, they were guilty of a lot of shit on their own, but what's often forgotten is that creators rarely created on their own dime. They were there to do a job. If you messed up or where late at you job you think these writers would tell a tale of your mistreatment? They'd never notice. But call yourself an artist or a writer and suddenly you're praised for fighting the machine.
>>143331109>there was just less people willing to "shoot" so to speakSurely the Marvel guys who ended up starting Image would feel free to speak about how much of a mess it was?
>>143330786>>143330842Plus Weisinger wasn't paying Shooter the same rate he was paying Binder, Hamilton and Dorfman. Edmond Hamilton had to shame Weisinger into paying Shooter an equal page rate. "Mort, not only are you using child labor, but you're not even paying him the same!"
>>143328539>You clearly haven't read any of his non-event comics.They suffer from the same problems.
>>143329807>That technically doesn't happenIt happened in print.
>>143313341No one needed to meme anything, he simply looks preferable to the current state of things.
>>143331941No, it didn't.
>>143332561Yes, it did. Retconning it doesn't change the fact that real people in the real world printed a real physical object that depicted Carol Danvers being raped and impregnanted by her son.
>>143327643Image played a massive part in the speculator boom and subsequent bust and they didn't go bankrupt even though they normally would have been far more at risk of doing so, being a new company. Marvel would have been fine if not for all those bad investments.>>143328629Stan Lee and pals created the Marvel Universe but aside from the ones you mentioned, Shooter brought us Simonson's Thor, Michelinie's Iron Man, Stern, Mantlo, and DeFalco's Spider-Man, Mantlo's Hulk, Stern's Avengers, Englehart's West Coast Avengers, DeMatteis and Gruenwald's Cap, Byrne's Fantastic Four, and Moench's Moon Knight.>>143329888The "readers" left because they weren't readers at all, they were speculators. People who didn't read comics started buying them because of the media meme of Action Comics #1 and Amazing Fantasy #14 being worth small fortunes so they wanted to get in on the ground floor with all those special foil covers and new #1s from hot artists. Once they caught on that these new comics would be worth diddly, they stopped.
>>143332643All this ick is cranked to 11 in the 00's.
>>143332698Marlo is cute goddamn
>>143328629Was just coming back to respond to this, but >>143332698 already did a much better job than I would’ve. The 60s were a brilliant time, don’t get me wrong, and they certainly set the stage. But the only ones that really stand up today are Fantastic Four, Spider-Man and Thor. But even if you were to rank those as the best runs with those characters, the runner-ups are pretty inarguably the Shooter-era runs with them.
>>143332698>Stan Lee and pals created the Marvel UniverseStan Lee only created She-Hulk
>>143313817>The only thing he did that was arguably wrong was the "no gays"Superheroes are a really small minority, now in said small minorty flap out almost a 1/4 are some kind of queer shit nowdays because lib writters cant help themselvesShooter was right and ahead of his time, also characters becoming gay really just ruins them, we have black cat, Tim and John as good examples
>>143312514>What was his problem?There was only one of him.
>>143334475>Shooter undergoes mitosis>produces two regular-sized editors for twice the effectiveness
>>143312514Terrible choice of haircut.
>>143331063Turning down Hickman's pitch for a Legion book in favor of Bendis which let him go and do House/Powers of X is definitely one of the dumbest decisions they've made in recent memory
Would Jim be able to fix Marvel as it is now or is it too far gone?
>>143335174looks fine to me
>>143334734He din´t work with Kentaro Miura, also I thank him for android 18.
>>143335492As much as it hurts to say it, I don't think anyone could save Marvel or DC now, they're both too far gone to be saved. Part of me is hoping for Disney and Warner to just shut them down out of mercy before the idiots running them do any more damage.
>>143312514I'm going to guess that it was cystic acne?
>>143336923Disney and Warner are a major part of the problem
>>143336923Its too cheap for giant public corporations to keep them as an intellectual property mausoleum for anyone to bother killing them
>>143321675Look dude, not OP but I was alive and reading Marvel during Shooter's tenure. He was ACCOUNTABLE. He would attend convention panels and would be sincere and accountable, instead of a weasel like most others. Yes, he literally WAS (is?) anti-woke. He didn't give free storytelling passes to characters based on their gender/race/sexual deviancies. The industry would be far stronger today if he were in charge of Marvel, and he would never allow lunatic creators to insult the fans and tell them not to buy their books if they didn't like the writer's politics.
>>143321787>Shooter was EIC when Marvel published a story about REEEEEEEEESo, every other EIC's tenure was 100% spotless, huh? That's the best you can do? Of course it is, you cretin.
>80s Marvel Bullpen >Bryne: You're gonna start treating me respect! I'm gonna write the Superman reboot!!>Shooter: Must be some good shit over there to let YOU write Superman. >Bryne: FUCK YOU, SHOOTER.>Shooter: Sorry, couldn't hear you over nobody giving a shit about Alpha Flight.
>>143326653>Marvel's spiral was inevitable when Perelman bought it in 1989, possibly even the New World sale a few years beforeNot sure if this was the same time, but Shooter blogged about the time he and Chuck Rozanski looked through the financial records at Marvel during their bid to buy Marvel, and how utterly cash-fucked it was with the sweatheart deal to Toy Biz on royalties meaning you've have to throw mountains of cash to buy Marvel only to get a trickle of profit back that would take forever to earn back the initial investment. I can only imagine where Marvel would be if Shooter had succeeded in owning it (I bet I'd still be reading modern comics if that were the case, I don't think he'd tolerate these modern hack writers or the shit the "professionals" turn in)
>>143337736Read the thread, champ>>143321862>>143321869>>143321886
>>143321886I accept your concession.
>>143337945>muh whataboutism is okay when i do it!!!
>>143337955>>143337972Based retards.
>>143332698>those fucking word balloons that don't properly fit the panelswhut's this?>aaaiiieeee a GIRLBOSS comic shop owner in 1999!Draw her character as your stereotypical ComicShopGuy and literally nothing changes. But okay!
>>143338173Marlo isn't real, anon. She can't hurt you.
>>143338173>Draw her character as your stereotypical ComicShopGuy and literally nothing changes.I want to fuck Marlo. I definitely don't want to fuck Comic Book Guy
>>143337903If they could have just stopped themselves from going into all that debt to buy up stupid shit they easily could have weathered the speculator crash.
I stumbled across an old NYT article earlier today which should be interesting to you guys talking about the speculator crash and Marvel's bankruptcy. It's Herb Trimpe's account (in journal form) of how he had to deal with being fired at 56:https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/national/010900edlife-56-edu.html
>>143331268Yeah which is why a bunch of quotes from the '90s section of the book that aren't DeFalco or one of the sales guys (forget his name but he's the guy who replaced Kalish when she was moved/kicked upstairs when she started fighting with corporate) are MacFarlane.
>>143337945Precisely the weak comeback I expected from someone making weak arguments to begin with. Champ.
>>143338217>an attempt was madepathetic.
>>143338940The real money was in all the toys and merch, not the comics, so Perelman's plan was for Marvel to do everything in-house instead of licensing the rights to their characters to other companies. This is why they bought Toy Biz, some trading card companies, and a comics distribution company. And also Malibu Comics, with conflicting accounts of that being just to buy them before DC could buy them, or to get their computer coloring department.If they hadn't got into so much debt from buying all those companies they'd never have gone bankrupt.
>>143332698>Image played a massive part in the speculator boom and subsequent bustI can't remember exactly when the big Action Comics #1 sale was but I think that and the platinum ink Spider-Man #1 cover were the definitive turning points as if not for that Spider-Man issue specifically MacFarlane might not have had the clout to form Image.I want to say that jim Halperin/Heritage was involved in that auction or at least involved in the '90s bubble because Halperin is a scam artist who's had his hands in pretty much every other non-real estate speculator bubble over the last 35 years (coin collecting, baseball cards and recently retro games).
>>143337903>I can only imagine where Marvel would be if Shooter had succeeded in owning itI don't want to say out of business because its characters/licensing potential were way too valuable but I think it would have ended up in the same position eventually: bankrupt and taken over by Ike/Toy Biz. The only difference is that maybe the comics would have been stronger for a few years until the bankruptcy.
>>143339198>https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/library/national/010900edlife-56-edu.htmlGreat read, thanks for sharing. Very depressing. 1995-96-ish was when I abandoned comics. The costs were a bit high, but more importantly the books were mostly shit. Marvel died when the Image guys left (the art was atrocious on the Heroes Reborn crap), Image was mostly decent art with terrible writing. Of all the Spawn speculators, I was actually reading the books and very much non-impressed. And Valiant. Wonderful, incredible Valiant. Died when Shooter was ousted.
>>143339198IIRC there was some mystery over whether the Herb Trimpe blog was really him or not. If it's the one where he talked about editorial ordering him to change his style in the 90s, he'd later claimed the blog was fake and that it was entirely his choice to change his style.>>143339823Spider-Man #1 in 1990 was definitely one of the big moments where new comics were being marketed at speculators as much as readers, though comics speculators had been a thing at least as far back as DC's 1970s Shazam relaunch.What's odd is how the speculators had crashed the trading card market then moved over to comics and the exact same thing happened with zero lessons learned.>>143339900I think we need to keep in mind that Shooter and his consortium ended up founding Valiant after their failed bid to buy Marvel, and Valiant did ride the speculator wave as much as any other company, so we can't say with certainty that a lot of the same mistakes wouldn't have been made if Shooter and his people had bought Marvel. They'd likely have evaded bankruptcy just by not getting into the massive debt Perelman got them into, but they'd likely end up eventually getting bought by some larger parent company, maybe still Disney, maybe someone else.
>>143339934>And Valiant. Wonderful, incredible Valiant. Died when Shooter was ousted.What happened to Shooter with Valiant is borderline criminal. Sidenote, not a single one of the Wikipedia articles for either Valiant, Shooter, or any of the other founders alongside him mention anything about Shooter getting fucked over raw and kicked to the kerb. They all just say he left. Admittedly, I think the only readily available source as to what happened with Shooter and Valiant is Shooter's own recollections on his interviews and blogs, but even then, it's still strange that not a single one of those Wikipedia pages even mentions his version.>>143340030I've never heard of any fake Herb Trimpe blog before, but the piece I linked is something he published for the New York Times and it's literally just his journal entries over the course of 1995-99
>>143314095>wally wood knows that if he misses another deadline shooter's gonna strangle him with his big strangling hands
>>143317642make >to:/co/
>>143318431worst part by farmort unironically saw him like a son
>>143340266But Mort already HAD a son
>>143340191What did actually happen with Valiant? I know the Deathmate crossover apparently fucked them bad.
>>143339823MacFarlane also needed unhappy coworkers who would walk with him and it was Marvel's management alienating Jim Lee that really did it. For all people say Shooter made his employees annoyed nothing comes close to the dominos that were toppled by that since it allowed a huge exodus of people. MacFarlane openly said if just him and Leifeld had left no one would have joined them because it would have just been the "idiot and the asshole".
>>143340523Shooter got forced out by a business partner and then alienated the staff members. Deathmate hit and then they dropped a million reboots on what had previously been tightly controlled worldbuilding and stories. Getting bought by a video game company was the worst blow.
>>143340523They had a really bad 1993. Their relaunch of Turok was one of their tentpole books of the year and marketed as speculator-bait, but Turok, along with the launch of Dark Horse's superhero line were the moments where the speculators were starting to pull out of comics, and stores got stuck with a lot of unsold copies. A similar situation happened again later in the year with the Deathmate crossover with Image. There was no coherent narrative between the different issues, the Image chapters were massively late, the speculators didn't bite, and stores were stuck with too many books they couldn't sell.The constantly repeated story about Deathmate killing Valiant isn't true though, the company kept going, got bought by Acclaim and renamed Acclaim Comics, they survived through to the late 90s.
>>143340575In Rob Liefeld's script for a movie about the Image founding Jim Lee actually seemed like the guy most willing to play ball with Marvel's concessions, but everyone else had that "fuck you, not enough, we're leaving" attitude. Got peer pressured into sticking with them.
>>143340658>bought by AcclaimFate worse than death, ouch.
>>143340720Macfarlane and Larsen seemed the angriest and would go on the be the most confrontational with Marvel's people afterwards. Liefeld and Valentino seem to have walked in with the idea that Rob could keep plotting X-Force, and Jim could keep writing Guardians of the Galaxy and maybe they'd come back to draw those books one day but things quickly moved to a situation where that wasn't possible.Apparently there are Marvel staffers who weren't even born when all of this happened, who see those guys as "traitors" because that viewpoint is just institutionalized at Marvel.
>>143340750The Acclaim Comics years at least gave them a genuine cult hit with Quantum & Woody, I think it's the only thing from the Acclaim era that modern Valiant brought back..
>>143340523If you're asking for specifically what happened with Shooter and Valiant, here's the gist of it in his own words:>In November 1989, I started a company called Voyager Communications Inc. No comma before “Inc.” Just like Time Inc. Voyager published comics under the VALIANT imprint. VALIANT (my VALIANT) is all caps, always.>[…] >But I lost control of the company shortly after we started. On Friday, December 22nd, the last working day before Christmas, I was walking home from the office at Seventh and 47th. I lived on Madison at 38th. Partner Steve Massarsky was with me, headed for Grand Central. We walked together as far as 44th and Madison. There, on that corner, he told me he had been secretly dating and was sleeping with Melanie Okun, one of the two principals of Triumph Capital, the venture capital firm that had funded Voyager.>Merry Christmas.>I told my other partner, Winston Fowlkes. Like me, he was appalled. Talk about a conflict of interest…!>After the holidays, Winston protested to Melanie’s partner, Michael Nugent. Winston insisted that something be done.>Something was done, all right. Massarsky, his bedmate and her partner convened the board and fired Winston for daring to object. Massarsky’s shares and those controlled by Michael and Melanie/Triumph constituted a majority. I was President of the company, but they had ultimate control.>[…] >Why not quit? Easier said than done. Lots of reasons I’ll explain sometime later.>Besides, all the bad guys wanted was money. I believed that if I could somehow make the company succeed, I could raise the money to buy them out. Fulfill their “exit strategy.” That’s what Triumph and Massarsky wanted—the big killing and exit.http://jimshooter.com/2011/11/ditko-at-valiant-and-defiant-part-1.html/After that, it was only a short time before those others stabbed him in the back.There's a full interview which goes into a LOT more detail here: http://valiantarchive.com/valiant/joe/shooter/default.php
>>143340575>because it would have just been the "idiot and the asshole".Which one is which?
>>143335492If you gave him a budget of like a hundred million dollars or so *just* to eat losses and costs while he does a basically full restructuring of distribution, production, and editorial standards, and has to seek out new writing talent, maybe. Fixing Marvel right now unironically basically requires someone being able to eat the costs of unfucking it for a nebulous amount of time and nobody wants to go however many million in the hole for that.
>>143340820>Apparently there are Marvel staffers who weren't even born when all of this happened, who see those guys as "traitors" because that viewpoint is just institutionalized at Marvel.There are proper Marvel staffers who are actually under 30? You sure they aren't just unpaid interns?
>>143340030I mean, Valiant did the bulk of that after forcing him out so I mean....
>>143340961Disney and WB could eat those costs and fix Marvel and DC respectively, ignoring the various other much bigger holes both those conglomerates are each in right now. Certainly, the Disney and WB of 10 years ago would have probably had the cash to spare to fund what you're talking about. But the simple fact is that corporate doesn't care about comic books. So even if Disney and WB had the time and money to spare and people capable enough to spearhead such a radical industry-wide revamp on both a creative and commercial level, they wouldn't want to do it, because they just don't care.
>>143340290Yeah but his son didn't rock faces with great comics and let Mort tell his employees that he had a starving 13 year old who could draw and write better than them.
>>143332643>wikipediaYou're either trolling or retarded, but it doesn't matter, because either way you invalided your own argument.
>>143341017To Disney and WB, Marvel and DC are just IP factories and source material for movies, TV shows and cartoons, plus characters to license out for toys and merch. The comics industry is so small and the money it brings in is so small that they don't care about trying to make things better, and it's not making enough of a loss that there's any pressing need to do something about it either. So the situation just carries on as it has, while having a rich parent company gives the creatives at the Big 2 the security to take losses on failed books and characters they refuse to give up on, and to do a lot of self-destructive, damaging retarded stuff for the sake of short term publicity stints, things that would have killed the companies outright by now if they weren't owned by massive mega corporations.
>>143318203Why would it be strange? Yaoi is for fujos (who are mostly straight) and yuri shit is for otakus (who are mostly shit). It's all faggotry but not for the same reasons.
>>143341380kek, I meant to say "mostly straight" instead of "mostly shit", but the typo still works so whatever
>>143332698>they didn't go bankruptThey might as well have. Are you not aware of the (business) history of Image in the 90s?
>>143340575>Marvel's management alienating Jim Lee that really did itWhich is all a result of everyone looking around with dollar signs in their eyes worried more about how they could become millionaires than producing good comics. Marvel bent over backwards to placate the superstar artists and the superstars got miffed because they were already making lots of money but couldn't make even more doing their own series on the side or because they wouldn't own the characters.Meanwhile Lobdell was making like 6 or 7 figures I believe writing the X-Men and yeah most writers/artists weren't going to make that much but you were probably still going to get paid way better than anyone before and probably after you.
>>143340820>who see those guys as "traitors" because that viewpoint is just institutionalized at Marvel.What I recall after the Image exodus was that the plan at Marvel was to avoid creating any "superstar" artists from then on, it was always about the character, the book, or the entire creative team, and they never wanted to over-promote anyone ever again, deserving or not.
>>143342524Well that plan sure as fuck didn't get taken seriously, a lot of those same superstars who didn't leave just got shuffled around between the big 2 for the next like 20+years and they started treating actual human garbage like Bendis the same way once he showed up.
>>143339934>the art was atrocious on the Heroes Reborn crapThe funny thing is that I'd argue the post-bankruptcy period is pretty good. Like yeah Spider-Man was iffy and the two main X-books were bad but the secondary X-books were probably the strongest they'd been in a long, long time with Generation X being fun basic superheroics, X-Force in general being good, some decent solos like Deadpool and Gambit, Busiek/Perez Avengers, Jurgens' Thor run, Spider-Girl and whatnot. Then you get into the Jemas era with the Marvel Knights stuff, PAD Captain Marvel, trying to do different styles of books which led to stuff like Sentinel and Runaways and so on. Not all of it is great but I don't think most of it (except Uncanny and Adjectiveless) ever hit the level slop that the mid-'90s were. I'd argue that 1997-2004 is probably one of Marvel's best periods from a creative standpoint.
>>143342007They had troubles but they survived long enough to become the company for creator-owned books in the 00s.
>>143332772Shame she got HULKED, that broad was Joe’s squeeze during the Fear and Loathing era
>>143340820McFarlane was angry because at the end of the day the only thing he cares about is his bank account and if Marvel was preventing him from adding so much as an extra dime to it that he felt entitled to then they were scum. Comics were never something he really cared about. He drew because he wanted to do marketable characters in cool, marketable poses because that stuff sold. His interest has always been in toy production and baseball memoribilia. I'm honestly surprised he hasn't tried to buy into a baseball team seeing as he's always cared more about baseball than comics.Also he started dating his wife when she was 13 and he was a high school senior.
>>143342591I can't think of any other big post-Image superstar artists for Marvel prior to Jemas/Quesada taking over besides Joe Mad. Definitely no superstar writers either.
>>143340857>Massarsky, his bedmate and her partner convened the board and fired Winston for daring to object.By partner do they mean like a business partner or was this guy getting cucked and was not only okay with it but willing to ruin a business for it?
>>143342794We haven't had any superstar writers in the past 10 years, but they absolutely dominated the 00s and early 10s. But the thing about writers is that they typically can't go off and form their own rival comic company because they'd have to have the money to pay artists to do that though Mark Millar ended up doing exactly that because the 00s were incredibly good to him.
>>143312514having to deal with byrne and claremont
>>143342883I mean in that specific period between the Image founders leaving and Jeams/Quesada taking over. Jemas/Quesada era brought Kevin Smith and Bendis which brought in the superstar writer era but the '90s didn't arguably have one at least at Marvel. DC had Gaiman and Morrison.
>>143343166Oh right. It was the era of editorial-driven comics, little room for people with big ideas of their own. Though they did try to hype Heroes Reborn and Spider-Man Chapter One as big things based on who was working on them, all duds.
>>143321675>too historically illiterate and uses generic historical figures as shorthands for le evil conservatives without understanding their contextCaesar was progressive by roman standards you dipshit
>>143332698>Simonson's Thor, Michelinie's Iron Man, Stern, Mantlo, and DeFalco's Spider-Man, Mantlo's Hulk, Stern's Avengers, Englehart's West Coast Avengers, DeMatteis and Gruenwald's Cap, Byrne's Fantastic Four, and Moench's Moon KnightOnly a couple of those are definitive.
>>143332698No, the READERS left. You seem to be of the mistaken impression that after the speculator boom that sales went back to where they were before the speculator boom. NOT EVEN CLOSE. Sales by the mid-90s were a fraction of what they were in the mid-80s.
>>143333117No, they didn't make a point at all. That first post is 100% correct. Marvel's definitive era was the 60s. PERIOD.
>>143333257You're a faggot.
>>143335492It's far too late to fix Marvel or DC and has been for a number of years now.
>>143337742Byrne was a license to print money in the 80s. When he was on Alpha Flight it was a top 10 seller IN ALL OF COMICS.
>>143343500>Only all of those are definitiveFixed
>>143343229>Though they did try to hype Heroes Reborn and Spider-Man Chapter One as big things based on who was working on them, all duds.Heroes Reborn still had 100,000+ orders by the time it ended. It probably felt like an underperformance if they were expecting 200,000 or something but comic companies would kill for a book to do 100,000+ orders each month for at least a yearSpider-Man Chapter One did have orders drop hard though#1: 100,162#12: 42,917
>>143342600The actual Heroes Return era was fantastic. A lot of the books were really just coming on strong after they got back. I bounced after Onslaught but I really wish I got back into the books sooner when those books were coming out. What a great few years that was before the Bendising.
>>143344514I'm always amazed when I hear about a bad selling book then compared to a good selling book now. It's honestly very sobering.
>>143338940Not long term, they couldn't have.
>>143339198Copy/paste that shit. Anyone giving corporate sites a click is a faggot.
>>143339934>>143340030Herbe Trimpe wasn't at all unhappy about being asked to draw like the Image guys. He even said it was the most fun he ever had working in comics because it was so different from anything else he had ever done.
>>143340575The founding of Image really happened because of Liefeld. There was even a youtube video about this.
>>143335245Yeah, no.
>>143344521I think you can probably extend that time period (maybe call it the revival era) to the Disney purchase in 2009 but I wouldn't go that far. 2004 feels like the best end point for Marvel's revival as that's when Disassembled happened. Busiek's Avengers feels symbolic of that era so it (or the remnants of it) getting destroyed by Bendis feels like a good break point. After that you go from reconstruction to destruction with Disassembled, House of M, Civil War and OMD all within a few years, Thunderbolts (another emblematic book of that period) gets raped into being a gritty, cynical, violent Suicide Squad knockoff, and then in 2009 Disney buys Marvel and that's basically it for them as it's spent the last 15 years as a shambling zombie IP farm for the movie studio.Also JLA/Avengers ended a few months before Disassembled and I've seen it argued that you can consider that story the end of the old MU.
>>143344841Oh well if there was a youtube video then it must be true.
>>143344999Yeah. When I was sort of getting back into marvel stuff it was roughly around Civil War but it wasn't really through those books. Annihilation was the current event I was more into but generally on the whole I was far more interested in catching up stuff like Avengers or Thunderbolts. I wasn't really too into what the X-men were doing but Civil War was just a big stop sign for me. But even once I got the of of Busiek Avengers and into the Johns or Aaron stuff I was ready to get back out.
>>143344999>After that you go from reconstruction to destruction with Disassembled, House of M, Civil War and OMD all within a few yearsdestruction? everything before that not named spiderman is unreadable to me.fuck, the x-men in the 2000s. claremont and fucking austen? really? morrison? he was fun as hell but he absolutely shat on key characters which only got worse when chuck shat on even more. the twelve and peter davis run sucked 50 dicks too. or the cringefest that was wolverine?house of m was the mother of all palate cleansers. it's what allowed the follow up writers to save the x-men.
>>143345364>house of m was the mother of all palate cleansers. it's what allowed the follow up writers to save the x-men.Hell no. That era of X-Men was also bad
>>143345364>it's what allowed the follow up writers to save the x-men.This is where they basically became ruined irreparably turning them and their readers into full on mutant zealots.
>>143345387that's red revolution, 2014 with bendis.
anyone pretending marvel between 1994 and 2004 did not publish absolute bottom of the barrel trash is either high on nostalgia or seriously contrarian about new comics.
>>143345371>That era of X-Men was also bad>jetpack cyclops>bad
>>143345406Other way aroundPeople still insisting late 90s Marvel is LE 90S REALLY BAD is high on nostalgia or parroting Linkara Drones or whatever
>>143345415>Muh MemeclopsFuck off.
>>143345420pretending the 2000s were "worse" is straight up contrarian "these aren't my toys" bullshit.>linkarawho?
>>143321874That's... nowhere of a representation of 2000s Marvel. You could have gone with anything Ultimate, or MAX, or any of the characters that started wearing black trenchcoats for a bit, The Other, or the X-Men run with the potato faces. What the fuck dude.
>>143340596>Getting bought by a video game company was the worst blow.Upside: We got those fucking awesome Turok games on N64.
>>143345717Downside, the games were kind of shit.
>>143342794>>143342883ennis, bendis, millar, morrison, and a couple others were all 2000s starsgillen and ewing are technically big fish in marvel today
>>143345754How depressing
>>143345769real money today is in middle school GNs, hit SOL webtoons, indie animation or making comics youtube shows (and not getting suicided)
>>143344999>>143345322The -late- 2000s had some surprisingly good stuff. Cosmic Marvel was mostly good until the end of Thanos Imperative, X-Men was really good for a bit, Thor (namely Journey Into Mistery) was decent, and Hercules and Hulk were fun. I'll even trigger a lynchmob saying Spider-Man was alright for a bit.Then it all comes tumbling down, tumbling down, tumbling down...>>143345364>house of m was the mother of all palate cleansers. it's what allowed the follow up writers to save the x-menYou're not too wrong, but it's like washing your mouth with bleach. Remember that it also led to Endangered Species, which started Marvel's path to absolutely fuck over Beast for no reason at all.
>>143345463>pretending the 2000s were "worse" is straight up contrarian "these aren't my toys" bullshit.You're straight up trying too hard to be wrong.
>>143318780>would probably have paid to buy a ticket to his hanging, but they could not afford the price that scalpers would have chargedKek that's good
>>143313817I've heard around here that he wanted to push some form of All-New, All-Different Marvel of the time, retiring characters and shit. Didn't go through, but pretty dumb if true.
>>143345837I won't lie and say nothing good came out. Especially on the cosmic side. I remember posting when Guardians was the big deal. And yeah I liked some of the X-books even into some of the Utopia days. But on the whole the whole Marvel Universe just kind of really vibed differently.
>>143345954Oh definitely, early-mid 2000s was a disaster, and Avengers was garbage all the way until they decided we had it too good with Cosmic/X-Men and gave them to bendis and aaron.
>>143346015Really bad case of pass the parcel back then. Everyone was laughing at who getting Bendis'd. And then he became DC's problem but that wasn't any relief.
>>143345874It's hard to know for sure if it was true or not true without knowing all the behind-the-scenes stuff. In the 80s there were replacement heroes. Rhodey became Iron Man, John Walker became Captain America. Julia Carpenter became the new Spider-Woman and Monica Rambeau became the new Captain Marvel. She-Hulk replaced Thing on Fantastic Four. Sure there would've been people complaining about these but they were few because more people actually bought the comics.2010s is different because the changes seem inorganic. Like because Ms Marvel did well during the first year and Aaron's Thor did well that they tried to repeatedly copy that success to the point where people started getting sick of too many replacement heroes.
>>143346065At least in Iron Man and Cap's cases, it looks kinda obvious it was temporary (even though I don't recall how long it lasted). Cap was doing his own thing while Walker was being a disaster in the same book, and Tony was getting wasted while Rhodey handled the heroics.Also I think Mar-Vell had been dead for a while?Also, Rick Jones was being the green Hulk.
>>143346319Rhodey was Iron Man for slightly more than two years (though in the final year Tony returned as Iron Man, wearing grey armor while Rhodey was still wearing the red-and-gold) Keep in mind, Rhodey was the Iron Man in Secret Wars and the early part of Secret Wars II, even though Tony listed as being Iron Man on the Secret Wars toyMar-Vell was only dead for months, less than a year even, when they introduced Monica as the new Captain Marvel (and really that's just because they didn't want DC to regain the Captain Marvel trademark).>Also, Rick Jones was being the green Hulk.Oh yeah, I forgot that one
>>143346319Cap wasn't very long at all. Rhodey was a bit more interesting because he got to participate in crossovers like Secret Wars. I actually liked the bit where he gets unarmored while Reed was trying to help fix his suit and asked if Reed was shocked to see a black man under there and Reed just gave like ZERO fucks. But Rhodey was fun as Iron Man. Hell there was a while where War Machine was the more popular of the two.
>>143316822Who is the absolute cutie on the right??
>>143346531Mark Gruenwald's wife.
>>143344599It's way too long for copy and paste You can always put the link into the Web Archive and access it through there
>>143346640>From the City of Steel>Literally came from nothing and fed his family as a child by being just that fucking good at comics with the worst boss in history, functionally self made>Literally a man women fantasized about on a national level who's hobbies are all gigachad shit like motorcycles and weight lifting>Wore a suit everywhere> Like 6 fucking feet tall>Fought for improved creative rights>Always trying to improve>Doesn't care about what people think just wants to do good.>Literally just wanted people to do their job, was able to tare wrangle so good Marvel became the dominant force in the industry and the entire fucking industry entered a death spiral literally the moment he was gone.>His worst enemies literally seethed so hard they devoted the rest of their lives to destroying him in effigy because he lives rent fucking free.>Every company that has tried to remove him has immediately done what he said they shouldn't and then immediately fucking died.>Also juggles.Legitimately how is this man fucking real.
>>143346678>> Like 6 fucking feet tallHe was 6'7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SClmiso_2Y
>>143346640>>143346678And yet Levitz was much more successful in getting creative rights and fought harder than Shooter ever did.
>>143339735It's OK, anon. We're all here for you in your fight against imaginary women questioning the length and virility of your peepee.
>>143339723Precisely the weak comeback I expected from someone French kissing his own prostate in cramped and smelly environs. Sport.>>143341102I accept your concession.
>>143343535This was just natural entropy. Even in the 80s Shooter was lamenting that the newsstand sales were dropping, kids were checking out.>>143343553Spider-Man and Fantastic Four are absolutely solid but Daredevil was outdone by Miller, Donald Blake Thor is definitely not what people would consider iconic, the Hulk started off incredibly awkwardly with a lot of extreme status quo changes because they didn't really know what to do with him, people have a lot of nostalgia for the original Avengers lineup but those stories weren't all that good until Cap's kooky quartet and the comic didn't really hit its stride until Thomas took over, with Englehart and later Stern really making it shine with all the drama.On top of that those stories have a kind of corniness, excessive narration (so little children can understand exactly what's happening) and constant exclamation marks (because periods wouldn't always show due to the printing process used at the time) that make them harder to get into. The 80s also had too much narration in a lot of books but it wasn't nearly as bad. They took themselves more seriously and the 70s solved the period problem.>>143345371Didn't care for Brubaker, but Claremont's work was fine enough and Milligan and Carey were great.>>143345406The Quesada/Jemas era was a huge revitalization even if they had a few particular dumb hang-ups.
>>143342862It means business partner. Massarsky later married the woman from the venture capital company he was sleeping with.Like I said, I just grabbed that summary from Shooter's blog. The interview I linked at the bottom of the post has a lot more detail about it all
>>143342883I think Tom King is certainly considered a superstar writer, unfortunately.
>>143347170King made a name for himself with Grayson in 2014 which was 10 years ago, yes.
>>143347185I'd say he didn't really make his name until Vision and then his Batman. Either way, even if you're marking King's massively undeserved popularity from Grayson onwards, that's still just about within the past 10 years
>>143347185He's also. whether we like it or not (and I definitely don't like it), the top writer at DC now and co-head of DC Films with James Gunn. This is as superstar as it gets in cape comics without actually being a cape character.
>>143345269No, I mean there's a video that goes over source and quotes from the people involved. Liefeld was the impetus of the exodus.
>>143345406>>143345420>>1433454631995-1997 was the worst era of Marvel before the Disney buyout. But 1998-2004 wasn't THAT bad.
>>143347022this post is delusional all around
>>143347185also Omega Men
>>143348325That added to the meme, but at the time Omega Men was a cult hit that almost got its issue order cut until its fans campaigned in its favor to force Didio to give King the number of issues he was promised when he pitched it. In hindsight that was a mistake.
>>143343553>PERIOD>not ‘Nuff SaidEven you don’t believe it’s true.
>>143347880It had Byrne’s run on Spider-Man, so it was worse than 95-97 in that sense
>>143348468Late 90s Spider-Man and the main X-books were editorially-plotted hot garbage yes, but we had Busiek on Avengers and Thunderbolts, Priest's Black Panther, Waid's Captain America, Kelly's Deadpool, DeFalco's Spider-Girl, and John Francis Moore's X-Force so there were some good books being published.
>>143343535>No, the READERS left.This. I was one of them, the writing had turned to shit, and much of the art as well.>>143347022>This was just natural entropy. Even in the 80s Shooter was lamenting that the newsstand sales were dropping,Way to twist what Shooter actually said. Newsstand sales were dropping because stores were dropping comics in favor of faster sellers like Leggs pantyhose racks and more buyers had already switched from newsstands to specialty stores. You're SO wrong everything you say needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
>>143344829Literally nothing to do with what I wrote, faggot.
>>143348755Most normie casual kids were not going to go out of their way to buy comics from a specialty store. That's where the big numbers came from. Adults who bought comics were low status nerds. The 60s Batman biff pow bam media meme embarrassed them through the early 00s but movies like Blade, X-Men, Spider-Man, Batman Begins finally got the public to catch on that superheroes weren't still stuck in the 60s, and then we even had Quesada promoting Civil War and Secret Invasion on Colbert a few years after that bit of embarrassment when Fox news flipped out over Quesada's Hollywood pal doing that gay Rawhide Kid comic and they had to try to tell those old boomers "look, we're not promoting the homosexual lifestyle to kids, kids don't even buy comics anymore"
>>143347907They still argued better than you
>>143348819>Most normie casual kids were not going to go out of their way to buy comics from a specialty store. That's where the big numbers came from.Not my point, and I'm not surprised you missed it and still wanted to blather on, Comic Book Guy.
>>143348840The newsstands still existed up through the mid-90s when the big two went direct market exclusive, first DC, then Marvel. The market was shrinking, supply and demand. Normie kids moved on to video games and cartoons that were of a much higher quality than the ones that were airing in the 60s-80s.
>>143312514Small dick.
>>143348541All of those are shit.
>>143348880I accept your concession again
>>143333257Yeah & Stan named Thor's Hammer.
What would Shooter think of Paul
>>143349510Shooter pushed through the marriage despite the protests of other higher-ups and even his own spider-editor (Priest), would absolutely not approve.
>>143346678He is so fucking based it's criminal. Love Big Jim.
>>143350094Honestly, I think one of the big things against him is that he’s such a Chad that it intimidates people. Plus he’s scary looking, which doesn’t help when people try to make a boogeyman out of him. But any sort of interview or blog post of his, he just seems amicable.
>>143350094>>143350667I just read his Ultimate Spider-Man review and some quotes in Tommy Lee Jones' voice, in my head.
>>143348861>The newsstands still existed up through the mid-90sAnd Specialty still exists today, that doesn't mean the conditions are the same you fucking retard.
>>143350667Any interview i have read or watched with the guy left me thinking he was pretty damn cool. Very to the point but I didn't get a hint that he was some terrible asshole ruling with an iron fist. It's really hard not to respect the guy for what he has done. It pleases me to no end that he makes his enemies like John Byrne come across like seething dipshits.
>>143350865"I didn't like reading the books so everyone else stopped reading them too" has no evidence to back it up. The books people on the internet complain about the most are typically the ones always in the top ten, top twenty.
>>143350917>It pleases me to no end that he makes his enemies like John Byrne come across like seething dipshits.I mean. Bad example.
>>143350917>It pleases me to no end that he makes his enemies like John Byrne come across like seething dipshits.Anyone can do this because John Byrne *is* a seething dipshit.
>>143346788DC was generally owned by a competent actual business and not a string of shady shysters like Marvel.
>>143347022>Even in the 80s Shooter was lamenting that the newsstand sales were dropping, kids were checking out.I don't think, with the exception of the golden age and maybe silver age DC, kids were ever the primary readers. Marvel's silver age popularity was mostly with the teenagers and the college crowd. The 18-34 demo (give or take a few years on either end) has pretty much been the defacto readership of comics for 60 years.
>>143351064>>143351081You know what I mean. Big Jim is just a gigachad
>>143350855I wish he reviewed Brand New Day the way he did review USM
>>143350917I think there's enough stories of him being a domineering asshole to say that there's probably a little bit of truth to it but like I said I think it was just a function of the fact he was the middle man between corporate and their asinine ideas and wrters with divaish attitudes who felt like they could do whatever they wanted because their books sold or were critical successes.
>>143351825>I don't think, with the exception of the golden age and maybe silver age DC, kids were ever the primary readersWhen I was younger and into comics there were a lot of 10-13 year olds going in and out of the shops and this would have been about 1992
>>143351825Kids have always loved Marvel characters, that's why Spider-Man 67 was a cartoon for small children and why Shooter had to tell Mantlo that no Peter Parker couldn't have an out of wedlock kid with Black Cat because they sell Spider-Man merchandise to small children. 60s Marvel was disproportionately popular with the college crowd yes, but normie adults reading comics ended with the golden age, and DC was kicking Marvel's ass saleswise in the 60s because their comics were very definitely targeted towards small kids and thus appealed more to them. I started reading Marvel and DC when I was a kid myself.
>>143351882I don't know if he reviewed it in depth, but the other quote I was thinking of was exactly a tweet about OMD or something like that. Maybe he thought that was 'Nuff said.
https://youtu.be/hickVDiW8k0?feature=shared
>>143352000You ever see a person on a horse? Like for real not in a movie? They really tower over you. And the guy I saw was otherwise on the shorter side.
>>143351825Kids were still the primary readership far into the 90s.
>>143351911>who felt like they could do whatever they wanted because their books sold or were critical successes.In fairness, their perception that they should be able to do as they pleased was justified by the fact that many of them had saved dying books precisely by doing whatever they pleased. And they were only able to do this because editorial wasn't paying much attention to what was going on in failing books.
I met him in person 2 weeks ago. He was a stand-up guy. He would have chatted forever if I wanted to. I actually had to part ways.I actually said to him, "Marvel should do itself a favor and ask you to come back!" He was like "I'm not sure they'd call"
>>143352182We talked about current comics. He said its too sensational like every issue has to be something shocking.
>>143351945Yes, all this other stuff is. But the READERSHIP, the ones buying and reading the comics, have been mostly teenagers and adults for a long time.
>>143352213We live in an time of reaction baiting and endless hype. Every even has to be an earth shatter mix up of the status quo. When was the last time you read a comic where the heroes were, for desperate want of a word, NORMAL. Like just some random one off adventure. Stories should naturally evolve and grow but that takes time. We're in an endless rush to change the status quo that it feels like we haven't even had one in 20 years.
>>143352332That's only because they got more money. Kids are still buying but they're milk money compared to Johnny "no kids " All Income.
Also DC was "kicking Marvel's ass" in the 1960s because Marvel was forced to go through the distributor that DC/National owned who limited the amount of books Marvel could publish. Once Marvel switched to Cadence as their distributor they surpassed DC within a few years. It has nothing to do with "appeal" or the quality and everything to do with DC actively suppressing a rival at the time.
>>143352336That was my big thing and my reason for loving his era... CONTINUITY. Sure he STARTED the events with Secret Wars for Mattel to sell toys (and now events are out of control...) but at least if you saw Spidey in XYZ it was tied to his continuity.
>>143352697>(and now events are out of control...)And with comic prices higher then they've ever been it's practically impossible to keep up.
>>143331063>the Legion is now a totally forgotten footnoteI don't feel so good, bros...
>>143335245>>143344982It's debatable. I didn't really care for a lot of Hickman's stuff like everyone else does (so I have mixed feelings about him doing Legion) but on an objective level I could see he moves the needle more than Bendis does.
>>143353250>like everyone else doesI think his fans are just really vocal, and usually even they admit he always, invariably, fucks up the landing.
>>143352000>a Master of Evil, like Fu ManchuAh, the good days of Marvel...
>>143351064John Byrne was a dipshit for what he tried to do to Spider-man with the reboot...
>>143353250I liked Hickman on Fantastic Four but I don't know that I'd call it one of the better runs. Of course I also didn't much care for Brubaker Cap and everyone's on about that too.
>>143353405And Vision, and Scarlet Witch...>>143353637>Brubaker Cap and everyone's on about that tooMaybe new readers who didn't care about Cap. Fuck brubaker.
>>143353799>Maybe new readers who didn't care about Cap.I feel like this probably the big split of opinion. A lot of new readers may like this stuff more because they have no previous connection to the franchise while old readers have not only seen a lot of this stuff done before.
>>143353799What did he try to do?
>>143354093To Vision and Scarlet Witch? It's what he DID. He hated them as a couple so he arranged to destroy everything about it. Set the precedent for "Wanda is a crazy evil bitch", too.There's examples of him fucking up other characters too, but I don't recall right now. I'll give him credit for finally bringing back Iron Fist from a stupid death, though.>>143353924Kinda like how some new readers liked morrison's X-Men (well, a lot of them were probably morrison fans to begin with).
>>143354220>Kinda like how some new readers liked morrison's X-Men (well, a lot of them were probably morrison fans to begin with).Yeah this is really where I think the big split started happening in general.
>>143344514In terms of elevating FF, Avengers, Iron Man and Captain America into four of Marvel's top sellers, Heroes Reborn was undeniably a massive success, the #1s topped the charts, and afterwards it was usually just UXM, X-Men and Wolverine above them. Heroes Reborn made these characters outsell Spider-Man, and all of the secondary X-books. But Marvel's execs considered it a failure because they were somehow expecting the books to sell millions like the speculator-fueled books of the early 90s.
>>143340857If Shooter had succeeded in buying Marvel, these people would have been the other members of the consortium he'd formed, so chances are they'd have taken control of the company away from him the same as they did with Valiant.
>>143354355I'm sure clone saga exhaustion wasn't helping matters either.
>>143324832>They are.Dead meme
>>143354523>Dead memeSpoken like someone who only encountered the sentiment via YouTube attention whores.
>>143343535>>143348755>I hated 90s comics and quit reading, this means everyone else felt the same and quit tooThat's just your own personal anecdote, not something reflective of reality.>>143348861 is right about the speculator crash, the comic stores that went out of business because of it, and the big 2 going direct market exclusive being the perfect storm of events that led to sales dropping across the board, and the industry basically losing kids as an audience. Spider-Man is the only character who had a genuine well-documented collapse in sales in the mid 90s due to an unpopular storyline driving fans away.
>>143354429It didn't, but don't let that take anything away from the fact that those Heroes Reborn books were selling really well, and it carried over into the Heroes Return books as well to begin with, though IIRC Avengers was the only one to sustain it for years, staying in the top ten or just outside it until Perez left.
>>143352336I will say that's something that I've enjoyed about the current Fantastic Four run. It's not perfect and has its fair share of issues, but it just being some "normal" adventures issue to issue has been refreshing
>>143354666Not even the clone saga drove fans away. The sales were great. They extended it multiple times, first from the original six month plan, then when they decided not to end it with Blood Brothers, and yet again when they decided to delay it so its ending wouldn't coincide with Onslaught which they padded with a month or two of filler Spider-Ben stories.
>>143342883There have been a few "star writers", but most of them have never been draws like the star artists were. The industry has tried to meme a lot of other guys into being bigger stars than they really were, just to try and push the idea that the writers were a bigger draw than the artists. A lot of the guys that they push as stars don't really move the needle in sales, even if they do have a weird fandom that's more like a cult of personality.
>>143354971Are there any star artists at the big two today? Guys whose art makes books a must by.
>>143354861Yeah, in a lot of ways it's nice to have an actual adventure comic that feels like an adventure comic and not a constant escalation of hype with no breaks. Do wish the art was better though. Some issues are fine but then in some The Thing's head is literally a floating circle. Like a kid drawing an orange rocky snowman.
>>143354220Ah fuck that guy then. Started something that fucked Wanda for decades.
>>143355113Maybe Dan Mora over at DC?
>>143354220>To Vision and Scarlet Witch? It's what he DID. He hated them as a couple so he arranged to destroy everything about it. Set the precedent for "Wanda is a crazy evil bitch", too.One man who was triggered by Wanda marrying Vision did permanent damage to them in just a few issues. He had Vision destroyed and then rebuilt as an emotionless, dickless machine with his memories erased, and kept using his stories to destroy Vision on a conceptual level, dehumanize him and tell readers Wanda must have been crazy to marry him, and that she should have been with Wonderman instead, claiming Vision's personality was a 100% exact copy of Wonderman, which doesn't fit with how anyone has ever written either of them.Then even though Doctor Strange had verified they were real and normal, Byrne retconned Wanda and Vision's babies into being fake and just fragments of Mephisto, and had Wanda get brainwashed by two consecutive villains then become an insane villainess.And then people who agreed with Byrne kept getting to write them or edit Avengers.
>>143355233And White Vision hung around for a while. He wasn't even really fully back to normal until part way through Busiek.
>>143353405Bryne or Bendis, who's worse?
>>143355491Bendis. Not even a question. Byrne has done a lot more good than bad over his years.
>>143355522>Byrne has done a lot more good than bad over his years.Enough time has elapsed between the end of his good shit and the start of his downhill decline that this simply isn't true anymore.
>>143355549And he's still better than Bendis who I hold personally and singularly responsible for the destruction of modern comics alongside Quesada and Slott.
>>143355113Since the Image guys, there's never been anyone on that level of stardom ever again, the Big 2 won't let anyone get that big out of fear of something like Image happening again, and how much of an existential threat to them early Image was.Joe Madureira and J. Scott Campbell were as close as we got after the early 90s, but they both walked away from monthly comics, and most of the biggest artists since tend to end up just doing covers, which is where all the real money left in being a comic artist is.
>>143355567That's kinda reductionist.
>>143355571I miss when interior artists also did covers. There's nothing sadder than seeing a great cover and opening the book to see webcomic tier trash.
>>143355344Let's not credit Busiek for something that Bob Harras did years earlier, it happened in Vision's first solo mini. Avengers before Heroes Reborn had been working to get Wanda and Vision back together, it's one of the few things the Heroes Return era dropped the ball on and ruined utterly.
>>143355201He is up there for sure. Not sure how he finds the time to do two books and still keep up the quality work. Peach Momoko feels like another star. Greg Capullo as well.
>>143354093Byrne hated Vision and Wanda as a couple because he thought the idea of Wanda being in love with (in his words) a toaster was stupid. So he had Wanda and Vision's kids revealed to be fakes which caused Wanda to go crazy and then had Vision destroyed and rebuilt but without any emotions (the period where he was all white) to drive home that he was just a dumb robot. That story was what Bendis used as the kickstarter for Disassembled and House of M, stories that essentially made Wanda virtually untouchable for a long, long time.
>>143355833Capullo's been around since the 90s, nu52 Batman may've taken him to another level of star but even that was a decade ago
>>143355687>>143355841Tom Brevoort is no longer editing Avengers and I begin my nightly prayers Vision and Wanda will be allowed to be the A List couple they deserve to beI'm not saying he kept them apart but he is the common denominator
>>143355854I would still put him in there. His work hasn't really fallen off. People at the shop I go to were even pulling that terrible Spiderman comic he did the cover for just because he did it.
>>143355881>I'm not saying he kept them apart but he is the common denominatorWhen he took over as Avengers editor they were on the road to a reunion but then suddenly they're being kept apart and they're trying to force Wanda/Wonderman instead even though they knew people hated it.Then Geoff Johns started getting them back together, but Bill Jemas drove him out of Marvel and as soon as he was gone, it's dropped, not even mentioned again and Wanda's immediately being used as a love interest in a Captain America book.Then in the 2000s, from the point where Whedon was planning to introduce Wanda and Vision in AoU and set up their romance, Marvel kept trying to push both of them with other people in the comics, time and time again. Remender's last Uncanny Avengers arc and Tom King's Vision book were both attempts to give Vision a new family that would keep him away from Wanda, while they tried pairing her with Wonderman yet again, then Brother Voodoo, of all people. If all of this over all these years wasn't all Brevoort, there's no hope they'll ever be fixed because everyone who works for Marvel feels about them like Byrne did.Remender's story with Vision was probably an attempt to give him a 1980s Cyclops moment that would make readers hate him for leaving his new woman and his kids to pine for the ex he still wasn't over.I don't need them to be "A list", just to be treated well, and for Marvel to finally understand that them being married is part of the appeal of both characters, and keep them together.
>>143354220>Kinda like how some new readers liked morrison's X-Men (well, a lot of them were probably morrison fans to begin with).I don't particularly like Morrison's actual run but I like the overall Morrison era which I felt was a great way to update the concept of the X-Men. The set up allowed for a wide variety of different types of books to be published as well and I don't think that there was anything that came after House of M that we got that was worth nuking the entire line for. I greatly prefer teen drama New Mutants/ New X-Men to the misery porn of the Kyle/Yost run and the best books to come from that period (Carey's Adjectiveless/Legacy, Spurrier's Legacy run and maybe the Wells/DnA New Mutants) would probably have worked fine pre-HoM with only minimal adjustments to reflect the status quo.
>>143354971I don't think there were really star artists prior to the '80s. Even Kirby and Dtiko, the biggest names in the prior era, didn't exactly set the world on fire after they left Marvel and Kirby's work at DC was at best received lukewarm and at worst actively disliked both by fans and the company. The '70s was definitely a writer driven period though with Englehart, Gerber and Claremont (once he got on UXM) all being draws. You didn't really have a mega star artist who was arguably bigger than the company until Miller and the Image guys. Maybe Byrne but it's hard to tell since by the time he tried to do indie/creator owned stuff it was after his star had faded.
>>143355611Covers are pretty much just advertisements for artists' convention sketches.
>>143349835I wonder how Christopher Priest would do as Editor of Marvel.
>>143351882He said out loud that it fucking sucked
>>143356490Ask Danny Rand
>>143356356The stories in the 70s and 80s were more writer-driven than artist-driven, but it's hard to say many of those writers were more of a draw than the book itself or the characters. Claremont (and Byrne) gradually made X-Men into a success, but once he'd made a name there, his post-X-Men work didn't sell as well on the strength of his name.>Maybe Byrne but it's hard to tell since by the time he tried to do indie/creator owned stuff it was after his star had faded.At his peak in the 80s Byrne was a massive draw for a Big 2 book, and having him as the artist would give a book a huge sales boost as his fans followed him around, but this didn't carry over to his work outside Marvel and DC, and over the years things like his West Coast Avengers, Wonder Woman and Spider-Man built up enough controversy to start turning people against him in a way that wouldn't have happened if he'd just stuck to being an artist.
>>143356356You're both right and wrong. There was definitely star artists before the 80s. Steranko, Neal Adams, BWS, Bernie Wrightson. They were popular artists at the time of the early 70s. Adams' style caused the shift toward more dramatic realism. It feels more writer-driven to you because a lot of these artists left to do other work outside comics (like Adams went into commercial work, Steranko did his magazines, etc) instead of long runs, as opposed to someone like Byrne, who stayed in comics for a long time and did a large body of work.
>>143356938>but this didn't carry over to his work outside Marvel and DC,The problem was he was at his popularity peak in the 80s and spent most of that time at Marvel and DCBy the time he did creator-owned work, Next Men did decent sales but it and his other work at Dark Horse got overshadowed by the Image launches. Erik Larsen put out a Freak Force book that he only wrote for, which was drawn by an artist named Vic Bridges whose style was Byrne-like. Freak Force was actually getting more orders than Byrne's creator-owned titles at the time
>>143313314He's so fucking tall.
>>143356490He'd both piss off a lot of fans but also make some elated with his views on how characters need to be kept in stasis and also kept unique. So on one hand, Peter Parker would still be a perma-bachelor but on the other hand, there would be no Miles Morales because there should only be one Spider-Man.
>>143357150>Erik Larsen put out a Freak Force book that he only wrote for, which was drawn by an artist named Vic Bridges whose style was Byrne-like. Freak Force was actually getting more orders than Byrne's creator-owned titles at the timeThat's pretty funny.
>>143318764Simonson Thor, Stern Avengers, O'Neill Iron Man
>>143355201Mora, Capullo, Momoko, maybe Jimenez?Over at Marvel, Larraz is the only one that comes to mind and he's semi cancelled by X-men fans for leaving out black people in his farewell Krakoa page. Joelle Jones might have gotten some greater notice if not for the tracing. >>143355571Why do covers make money compared to ongoings?
>>143357599Because nobody's good at interiors any more and all the rock star artists don't want to deal with long term commitments.
>>143355567>destruction of modern comicsYou just can't keep didio out of this one.>>143356258>the best books to come from that period would probably have worked fine pre-HoM with only minimal adjustments to reflect the status quo.Here's the thing, morrison's crappy status quo could have been done without his run. They could just have used Genosha as it was instead of spreading tons of mutants everywhere.Anyway, we'll have to agree to disagree a bit. I'm not a fan of the misery porn either, but the Kyle/Yost run was the closest we got to a Claremont era revival. I even enjoyed the humor, when I wasn't feeling like there was a Sword of Damocles hanging over the secondary characters' heads.>DnA New MutantsWeird, I was so hyped for that, but don't even recall how it ended after they spend a long time in Limbo. I may not have read the whole thing.
>>143358547I feel like KnY were sort of handed a ticking time bomb with those X-kids. They went HARD on the misery porn but they at least did it in a way that felt like it mattered. There was a real sense of gloom about things even in some of the humor moments that have some of the New Mutants horror vibe to it.
>>143358686I always say it here, I get the impression Kyle is the sadistic one who loves to kill off characters and Yost is the one with the humor. I could be wrong. Also, I wonder if both of them were huge Claremont era fanboys.>>143351882You know, come to think of it, I want to imagine his reaction if he were the editor and they came to him with brilliant pitches like "Spider-Man sells his marriage to Mephisto".
>>143358808Yost seems to have a lot of TV experience too.
>>143356525>>143351990Oh I know about that, but I wanted to see him dissect it and point out which parts worked and which ones he thought were so bad he told them that if they wanted to know what the characters should be like, to call him
>>143312514>>143313363Damn, those might be the gnarliest acne scars I've ever seen.
>>143355576It's hard to say he's wrong though.People shat on Byrne's IDW work but I read them recently and they seemed more competently done than a lot of Bendis' late 2010s Marvel and DC work. Not all of it, but enough that I can't blame that anon for thinking Bendis hurt comics more than Byrne.
>>143359834He looks like he could have been a Bond villain. Not the main mastermind but the main henchman everyone remembers.
>>143356938>>143357150I checked the sales charts in old Wizards. In 1992, Next Men was actually landing in the middle of the Top 100 for most of the year, which was not bad at all, especially since not long after Next Men began, the Image founders started launching their titles. Hell, there were even some months Next Men got more orders than the main Batman title. But by late 1992 and early 1993 it started getting down to the 70s of the Top 100, and was completely out of the Top 100 the rest of the year because so much shit was going on in 1993:>Image launches (remember the second wave with 1963, Shaman's Tears, Tribe, Phantom Force, Trencher, Maxx, Wildstar? Or spin-offs from the founders' side of Image like Youngblood Strikefile, Stryke Force, Bloodstrike, Stormwatch, etc?)>Valiant expands with more stuff, after Bloodshot #1: now you got Turok #1, you got Secret Weapons #1, Ninjak #1. Remember when Magnus got that armor? Or Valiant Vision?>And speaking of Image AND Valiant, let's not forget the fucking Deathmate crossover>DC started to up their market share by doing Death of Superman, then Reign of the Supermen and Knightfall.>Dark Horse themselves were pushing Comics' Greatest World, a new superhero line where the gimmick was it was a 16 page comic for $1 introducing new characters like X and Barb Wire and Ghost>Malibu, reeling from the loss of Image, got a lot of older Marvel and DC guys on for their Ultraverse line>And Marvel was pumping out more and more titles, with as many gimmicks and stunts possible with Maximum Carnage, Infinity Crusade, Bloodties, and a lot of other stuff I can't rememberSo I can't really be sure if that would've been a reflection on Byrne so much as bad timing. I think if he had launched Next Men a year earlier, maybe it would've consistently been in the middle of the chart and had a more solid ground by the crash.
>>143356950Nick Fury wasn't a big seller but you're right, I completely forgot about Adams.
>>143358686Yost/Kyle were a last minute replacement. DeFillipis and Weir were intended to continue on the book and only found out they were fired when the PR announcement came out. The NXM fans were like the Spider-Girl fans in that they were devoted and vocal so there was a lot of bitching and Marvel was forced to give DeFillipis and Weir the Yearbook Special so their run could get something approaching a real send off instead of an event tie-in. I don't feel like checking but I remember looking at the sales on Comichron and after the initial bump, the Yost/Kyle run was selling around the same as the DeFillipis/Weir one, maybe doing like 2 or 3k more. It mostly saw bumps because of events.
>>143361017I'm mostly salted it ended with a crappy event tie in that barely featured the kids. I do wonder what would have happened had it been allowed to go on.
>>143356356>Even Kirby and Dtiko, the biggest names in the prior era, didn't exactly set the world on fire after they left Marvel and Kirby's work at DC was at best received lukewarm and at worst actively disliked both by fans and the company.For Ditko, that was at least deliberate. He didn't really want to work on any big pre-established character (partly because he wanted to stay away from the limelight, and partly because he wanted to work only on wholly morally good superheroes), and neither was he willing to be an ideas man anymore after what had happened to him with Spider-Man and Dr Strange. So he was more comfortable with just getting what work he could and keeping his head down.
>>143356490I'm not sure Priest would want to be any kind of editor ever again, after what happened during his first time
>>143359905He could pull off a great Jaws for Halloween if he wanted
>>143357336Worth it if we killed Spider-Verse fuckery.
>>143357336>So on one hand, Peter Parker would still be a perma-bachelorWe're already there but without the good part, might as well bring it on fully.
>>143361155I find it interesting that Ditko became absolutely fixated on a certain kind of character, an incredibly moral journalist who bucks the establishment and says what's on his mind regardless of the consequences (Mr. A, The Question, Jack Ryder/The Creeper). It's funny because I'm sure his opinion of real journalists today would be incredibly low.
>>143337955Jim shooter is a rapist
>>143358547>Weird, I was so hyped for that, but don't even recall how it endedThat's because Dan Abnett isn't that great of a writer. The only reason people think he's great is because his usual competition is fanboys hired to write 40k tie-in novels, who make him look like Shakespeare by comparison.
>>143361155>and neither was he willing to be an ideas man anymore after what had happened to him with Spider-Man and Dr Strange.This was more down to his increasingly rigid interpretation of Objectivism. Like his Soviet and Maoist opposites, he deliberately started excluding fantastical concepts from his stories. In effect he castrated his own imagination, since thinking up fantastical concepts was one of his biggest strengths.
>>143361247Fucking Slott. Spider-Verse could have been a fun little story but we couldn't even get that.
>>143362076Like it or not, he's what success looks like in comics. The world is just a series of slots to him now.
>>143312514Isn't that the president of Argentina?
>>143362355Yeah but still. Fuck him.
>>143363197I'd rather not.
>>143364017Walked right into that one
>>143312514Too based for this industry, he literally saved it, we need more people like him
>>143355854>>143356014He's been posting WIP pages of the Wolverine book he's drawing on Twitter for months and still gets thousands of likes on each one. If there's any artist today who could qualify as a superstar, as in "I will buy this book regardless of who wrote it because this person drew it", it's gotta be him.
>>143361756Somehow Dan Abnett got a thank you in the end credits of Endgame but Shooter didn't.
>>143361756>fanboys hired to write 40k tie-in novelsI remember when Matt Ward briefly left Games Workshop there was a rumor he was going to go an write for Marvel. He was back in Nottingham pretty quickly.Imaging being too shitty of a writer to write for modern Marvel.
>>143365237Yeah. He has had staying power and for a good reason. His art has always looked cool. Always thought he drew a better Spawn and Todd ever did.
>>143365359Black Library is garbage so I can believe it.
I find artistfags worse than characterfags since half the time they have no engagement at all with the actual thing they buy, they just want something that look cool or that they can potentially resell for more money. The type of person who allows companies to get away with shit like variant covers.
>>143313228Acne scars in no way look cool
>>143359834NOBODY FUCKING EVER TOLD ME THAT'S WHAT OATMEAL FACE WAS. I WOULDN'T HAVE PICKED AT MY ACNE, IF I KNEW IT INDUCED OATMEAL FACE
>>143365233It's genuinely tragic desu
>>143366052Sometimes they do, I also recall that dude from Dalton's James Bond movies
>>143357479O'Neill Iron Man is underrated
>>143356356I think you may be looking at it wrong--Miller and the Image guys would be considered Superstar artists. Byrne also arguably was one back in the 80s (he genuinely did raise sales on Superman when he was on the books even though he was a Marvel guy). Kirby and Ditko were still star artists during their time at Silver Age-era Marvel even if it didn't stay that way after they left. Some of the major EC artists also would be considered star artists during the 50s.Like >>143356950 said Steranko, Adams, BWS, and Wrightson would also be considered star artists. Strange Tales didn't sell well as Spider-Man and Fantastic Four, but fans were taking notice of Steranko's stuff enough that he was selling stuff on the basis of his name. Also like that poster also pointed out they left comics pretty early or didn't produce a consistent run
>>143359561He had some writing credit in Thor 2, and I think him and Kyle were on X-Men Evolution -before- getting into comics? Dunno if he's got anything all that good in his resume.
>>143312514>What was his problem?Didn't know how to operate outside the 80s business model.
>>143366875He was one of the head writers on EMH
>>143359904Can we take a minute to appreciate how sad it is that someone has to be called "better than bendis"? A backhanded insult if I ever saw one.
>>143361756But anon, I wasn't hyped because of whatever his Warhammer stuff is. I was hyped because Cosmic Marvel and Heroes/Villains for hire were great under DnA. Also I think there was some decent Herc material too, not sure.
>>143367009>Cosmic Marvel and Heroes/Villains for hire were great under DnA.Were they? I completely forgot they existed.
>>143362440If he is, he might just end up getting their shit fixed, finally.
>>143365326Probably for his take on Groot and friends (which they butchered anyway).
>>143367032I didn't think /co/ would let someone forget about DnA Cosmic Marvel.
>>143367032I miss Jack
>>143367388Liked it or not, the poor guy was safer in space. Under better writing.
>>143366040I can see where you're coming from in some of that, but comics are a visual medium, and the best looking books at the Big 2 have always tended to be the most popular. It's never just been a speculator thing.The cringe cults of personality that build up around the mediocrities working as comics writers are worse than the people who follow artists or characters, because they're the ones constantly supporting and enabling the retarded things that wreck books and characters and acting like it has some kind of creative or artistic merit and like /theirguy/'s schlock is so much better than the rest of the schlock that most cape comics are. Most of them are writing comics because they're not good enough to write anything else. When you see people complaining about how an editor blocked a Big 2 writer from doing something, and the editor is made to look like the bad guy, 9 times out of 10 what the writer wanted to do was absolutely retarded and the editor was right to block it.
>>143367821People often debate if artists or writers matter more but t he truth is both matter equally. If anyone one is sub par it completely destroy what the other brought to the table.
>>143318764elektra assassin, daredevil love and war, X-Men Probably, Squadron Supreme
>>143368863Peak X-Men was Claremont/Byrne and the quality started started declining with 200 with the undeserved redemption of Magneto, Storm beating Cyclops in a fight without powers, the mutant massacre being one of the early examples of a bloated crossover dragging non-mutant titles into their mess.
>>143369943>the undeserved redemption of Magneto, Storm beating Cyclops in a fight without powersGo back to bad, Brevoort.
>>143369965He's not wrong though. Claremont and Byrne both needed someone else to balance out their worst ideas and worst tendencies. When Byrne left Claremont ended up doing a lot of stupid things, but he has a devoted following that just lapped up everything unquestioningly, even his awful 2000s work.
>>143370297>He's not wrong though.He's parroting Brevoort and therefore wrong by default.
>>143370539If Brevoort called out those specific things as stupid it just means Brevoort had a stopped clock moment where he was right twice in a day.If he's still giving us Magneto as one of the X-Men even though he knows it's awful, that just makes him even worse at his job than we thought he was.
>>143370539I'm not as extreme about it as Morrison, but he was right about Magneto being a terrorist twat. He was viciously cruel even to his own Brotherhood of Evil Mutants. Claremont took that guy and decided "actually he's a sympathetic Holocaust survivor and doesn't want to be bad anymore." Which you know, fine, the bronze age was more nuanced than the silver age and characters can grow, but the trial in #200 basically gave Magneto a get out of jail free card and he didn't have to face any kind of consequences for his previous actions.The Storm/Cyclops fight was pure Stormwank. If he was writing that scene honestly, Cyclops would have won, but that's not the outcome he wanted. Later on after Madelyne went Goblin Queen I believe someone retconned it so that she had been unknowingly using her powers to subtly make him impaired enough to force him to lose but that definitely wasn't the intent at the time.
>>143370659>If Brevoort called out those specific things as stupid it's because he was talking out of his ass as per usual.ftfy>>143370776>he didn't have to face any kind of consequences for his previous actions.His punishment is that he has to fill Xavier's shoes.>The Storm/Cyclops fight was pure Stormwank.The idea that she couldn't take Cyclops down is pure Cykewank.
>>143370875>His punishment is that he has to fill Xavier's shoes.Being a babysitter to those nice New Mutant kids was not a punishment, it was a reward.>The idea that she couldn't take Cyclops down is pure Cykewank.Her powers were gone at the time. Cyclops's were not. She's just a normal person. Trained yes, but Cyclops had been receiving Xavier's training for far longer and he had his punch beams which she should not have been able to dodge.
>>143370951>Being a babysitter to those nice New Mutant kids was not a punishment, it was a reward.It was his path to redemption and one he struggled to do properly.>Cyclops had been receiving Xavier's training for far longerBeing a student longer doesn't make someone the better student.>he had his punch beams which she should not have been able to dodge.If flatlines can dodge 'em, someone who trained with him in the Danger Room could too.
>>143371024>It was his path to redemption and one he struggled to do properly.That path comes after punishment. He didn't pay for his crimes.>If flatlines can dodge 'em, someone who trained with him in the Danger Room could too.When Ron Marz, a largely DC guy, wrote a DC/Marvel crossover he had Cyclops knock Batman on his ass. You know the Stormwank is bad when even a batfag agrees that there's no way a normal guy isn't getting creamed when Cyclops is looking right at you.
>>143371100>That path comes after punishment. He didn't pay for his crimes.He paid for them by doing good instead of bad.>he had Cyclops knock Batman on his ass.Now that's some serious Cykewank.
>>143370776Claremont never fucking claimed or wanted Magneto to be redeemable, his entire fucking arc in Claremont's work is very, very fucking specifically saying that "Hey there's probably a reason he became like this, but he's still full of shit and a godawful person, fuck Magneto"The only reason he toys with the idea AT ALL was to say that ultimately Magneto fucking can't be redeemed, that was Claremont's final word on the matter.
>>143371589As I recall Claremont's final say on Magneto was in the 00s Excalibur series where he and Xavier were pals again and he was shocked and appalled that anyone would seriously believe he would herd New Yorkers into ovens like Xorneto did.
>>143371589Not so. Magneto was meant to be redeemed. He was made evil again by editorial mandate in the relaunched X-Men #1-3. It's part of why Claremont quit.
>>143369943The peak of Claremont's X-Men is after Dark Phoenix though. But ideally his run should have ended after Fall of the Mutants because his run falls off there. If I could go back in time and do whatever I wanted with the X-Men it'd probably be something like this.>Fall of the Mutants sets the new status quo: the X-Men's (seeming) sacrifice improves human/mutant relations. This leads to a creative shake up.>New Mutants is ended as the characters take over Uncanny X-Men, the new generation of heroes for a new world; Shadowcat and Nightcrawler are brought back to give the team some veterans.>Claremont is given a new book to continue his "X-Men as the world's shadow heroes" thing called X-Calibur since they're "humanity's/mutants' sword" or whatever. No Excalibur because I hate that book.>X-Factor, given its membership, is an early form of the celebrity superhero team. Maybe have them become the government team at that point as sort of mutant goodwill ambassadors.>Go bold, get Keith Giffen for Uncanny. Claremont on X-Calibur. PAD on X-Factor.
>>143371714It doesn't have to be an either/or thing. You can have Magneto as an ultimately tragic figure whose past trauma causes a "he who fights monsters" situation without having him turn into a full-on "I'M PUTTING FLATSCANS INTO OVENS, ISN'T IT IRONIC? DON'T YA THINK?" psychopath.
>>143370875Cyclops fought all the team, including Storm, for a bit before.>>143370776Yeah Claremont had a huge boner for retiring Scott.
>>143373002Isn't that the issue where he solos them all? Scott's whole thing is that he's kind of the ultimate soldier but the flipside of it, which adds to his pathos, is that he's had to learn how to sacrifice his own happiness for the sake of others. The way I've always thought of him is as someone who will shoulder the world's burdens so that nobody else has to. His leaving Madelyne would have been more in character if it was due to restlessness in trying to adjust to life away from the X-Men than MUH JEAN.
Imagine having to deal with Claremont.
>>143372309>hating ExcaliburShit taste
>>143312579based>>143312609spbp
>>143312514Well aren't you racist, OP senpai.
>>143373565I didn't much care for the wacky british adventure stuff either. And Kitty was always insufferable.
>>143312514Acne.
>>143313817>The only thing he did that was arguably wrong was the "no gays" thingThis is wrong why?
I fucking kneel
Magneto was Claremont's commentary on Menachem Begin, a notorious Zionist terrorist that had to pivot into politics when Israel became independent. Begin was never "redeemed" from his terrorism, he was never captured and put on trial to serve a prison sentence, so going from actual militant terrorist to opposition political leader to Prime Minister is the kind of arc that Claremont wanted to emulate. It didn't make Magneto "redeemed" or a "good guy" because Claremont wanted a more multi-faceted conflict than that.
>>143374592Wacky British adventures was a great change of pace from the usual "woe is me, we're hated and feared, time for some to try and hate crime us again" bullshit that was poisoning every other X-Men at the same time
>>143372309>The peak of Claremont's X-Men is after Dark Phoenix though.Those issues include Byrne's. Kitty Pryde joins the X-Men, Wendigo and brown and tan Wolverine, Days of Future Past, not-Sigourney Kitty fights the not-Alien. Cockrum's return was pretty good but I wouldn't describe those stories as defining classics. I'd agree that the Paul Smith run with Professor Xavier is a Jerk, Morlocks, Rogue joining the team, and From the Ashes was great. JRjr's was pretty solid but like I said it fell off with #200.
>>143373476Imagine having to deal with Jim "You Can Only Tell a Story One Way" Shooter.
>>143375476Sounds like it would be Big Jim having to deal with you
>>143375885Sounds like it'd be me having to deal with Big Jim.
>>143360346Thanks, anon. Looks like Next Men was doing better than I'd have expected considering Byrne supposedly put it on hiatus for years because of sales.
>>143361756At his absolute worst Abnett is a perfectly acceptable meat and potatoes superhero book writer who's going to write a dependably solid book. Being a British writer with a background in 40K gives him a bit of a different perspective to your average cape comic writer, yet he's not part of the British Invasion group who deconstructed or wrecked everything. New Mutants was just a book he didn't really click on, and that just happens sometimes for most writers who've moved around the Big 2 a lot. Sometimes there are books or characters they just don't click on.
>>143376347>who deconstructed or wrecked everything.The British Invasion writers didn't wreck anything. Their rather dim-witted 90s imitators (who if you asked them would probably say that deconstruction is a branch of engineering) did.
>>143376432Sure they didn't, anon. Sure they didn't.
>>143376475No one held 90s Marvel and DC at gunpoint and forced them to flood the market with schlocky knock-offs of 80s deconstruction that understood the British Invasion comics only on the level of vibes and color palettes.
>>143376531It wasn't a good idea in the first place, anon. It's not just the imitators who came later that are at fault, it's the people who were doing it in the first place, and their fanboys who are still worshipping them.
>>143376568>It's not just the imitators who came later that are at faultSkilled writers aren't responsible for their incompetent imitators. There's literally nothing a writer can do tol stop idiots seizing on their work.Know who could've done something about the knock-offs? Publishing houses. They were under no compulsion to pander to lowest-common-denominator retards who'd buy any book purely because it had muddy colors and ultraviolence.
>>143376568This. The wannabees also still suck, though.
>>143376916>This.Nope >>143376702
>>143376924Alan Moore cannot into superheroes.>>143376347 described those hacks perfectly with>deconstructed or wrecked everythingFor some reason, I think br*ts generally just don't get the concept.
>>143376953Stick to middle-brow books. They seem to be more your speed.
>>143376978I mean, sure, it's better than the average low-brow br*t invasion garbage.
>>143377003You don't know what words mean.
>>143373565The problem is that Excalibur contains all of Claremont's problems magnified and the same ones that exist in the latter part of his run: dull "adventures" and sprawling, meandering, confusing stories that don't really go anywhere and half the time seem like they exist mostly for him to find ways to insert his fetishes. I don't think Claremont's Uncanny run would have been good if he stayed and got to do what he originally wanted because it had been faltering for the last two or three years priror to that. By the late '80s he was transitioning into modern Claremont mode.
