You want: Simple explanations with scapegoats you can point the finger at to blame.

Life can only give you: Complex explanations where there are no heroes and no villains, just people.

>>144300974
>Didio regime
Isn’t accurate. Jim Lee and Diane Nelson deserve a lot of blame too.

And it’s not like the Akira Yoshida years have been any better, nor the post Didio-DC years. Neither company seems concerned with people who pay for comics. They both insist on appealing to demographics who tell them (and show them) over and over again they have no interest in buying from the direct market.

Easiest way to fix comics is to stop having the direct market ongoings appeal to anyone but the people who shop there. Traditionalists. They’re not too old, they’re not dying, they’re not impossible to please.

Have a separate contuinty that only appears online free with ads, no ads with subscription and that’s for the zoomers and woke people. They’re not too broke, they’re not too distracted by other media they’re not impossible to please.

What’s impossible is this insistence on double and triple dipping with the same stories for the direct market, digital market and paperback market

>>144300974
It's more that the Japanese realized that having an anime alongside a currently running manga will boost sales considerably. This is how Demon Slayer sold so well according to a producer. Also, take into account that anime is cheap because of animator abundance in Japan anime is quick and easy to produce (at the expense of their animator's souls and bodies). In the West, a lot of the comic brands are tied to business like WB and Disney who decide what gets made, not the comic brands,

>>144301006
I would say, unequivocally, Diane Nelson is a villain. No ifs ands or buts about it. Her flippancy, disregard and flat out spite are villainous. Lee is just as spiteful (see: okaying making Alan Scott gay just to poke people in the eye) but it’s much less competent. Didio is just a spiteful as well but also hd a heart for some of the characters and creators even if he hated others.

Nelson is pure and abject evil. A soulless, corporatist, cunt who provided Didio with an ultimatum (do what I say or I tell Warner to fold DC and you’ll be known as the publisher who killed it) and brought in Lee as a lap dog to outnumber him on any and all votes. Didio sucked, everything he did was indefensible, this is NOT a defense of him. But it’s reality.

>>144301006
that's a cope

there was an inflation of video games in the 80s, then there was an inflation of comics in the 90s. to say or imply that it isn't just stupid people making bad decisions or corrupt people making bad decisions causing most of the problems in the world is chicanery on your part

>>144301111
>take into account that anime is cheap because of animator abundance in Japan anime is quick and easy to produce (at the expense of their animator's souls and bodies
This is pretty dated. It’s all cheap, shitty, poorly made, extremely ugly CGI these days too. You’ll recoil and defend it because you want to make this eat vs west but I’m not saying the west is better in any way. Just that there hasn’t been a single good, let alone well-made, anime series in well over a decade. Shit even Miyazaki uses CGI now in his films but at least it isn’t constant.

Only zoomers fail to see this.

I completely agree western comics need adaptations but just look at invincible. Everything made in the west ends up getting changed to suit a diversity checklist and the egotistical whims of the show runner. Most people in the western entertainment industry genuinely act like 1:1 is unnecessary and stupid to expect. “J-j-just go read the comic if you want that!”

>>144300974
Don't mind me, just pouring some oil on this fire.
>Hmm, I want to read some manga, I wonder what my options are:
>Isekai power fantasy
>Modern day action story
>Futuristic cyberpunk noir
>Slice of life moe
>Character driven fantasy
>All of these have animated adaptations, by the way.

>Hmm, I want to read some comics, I wonder why my options are:
>Superhero story set in DC
>Superhero story set in DC
>Superhero story set in Marvel
>Artistic European anthology
>Superhero story set in Marvel (AU)
>Independently published with two chapters
>Superhero story set in DC.

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>>144301151
>Just that there hasn’t been a single good, let alone well-made, anime series in well over a decade.

Whether you consider a show good or not is a matter of taste, but trying to argue that there are no well made modern anime is easily proven false.

>>144301151
Yeah, the only reason why anime is more popular is because it's fun.

Just look at capeshit animation, absolutelely awful, Superman, Invincible even X-men 97 animation is garbage with a lot of CGI assets and a lot of scenes where characters are nearly frozen for a fucking minute. At the very least anime got come neat fight scenes and creative abilities.

>>144301236
>>All of these have animated adaptations, by the way.
This is the real kicker.

>>144301249
To be fair you gotta admit X-men 97 used a very convenient art style to hide the CGI and look a bit less cheap, quite creative.

>>144301113
Still during the near 2 decade long period didio still had an army of shills who would defend anything

>>144301280
the problem is that is looks like we are stuck in a Jojo Bizarre Adventure intro that never ends

>>144301271
I'm curious, did the sales of Spider-Man comics actually increase while Spider-Man cartoons were airing? At some point, I feel like the adaptation doesn't matter because it's not bringing attention to the series anymore; it's not making it known because everyone already knows about it.
Did comic sales increase after Enter the Spider-Verse? I know Peni got a lot more popular.

>>144301111
You know the worst part? The Walking Dead and Invincible actually worked in that exact way, allowing their comics to stomp any Marvel comic.

So they know it works, they know that if they make cartoons that are identical to the comics they will boost the comic sales but they don't want to, just like how they don't want to make cooler fight scenes.

>>144300974
DEI is poison. Stop hiring diversity people to write diversity characters. Hire good writers to write good stories.

>>144301345
>So they know it works, they know that if they make cartoons that are identical to the comics they will boost the comic sales but they don't want to, just like how they don't want to make cooler fight scenes.
They know how to do it, they just don't want to. Or in the case of WBD, they don't have the money to do it and only save it for stuff everyone already knows like Batman and Harley Quinn.

>>144301312
It doesn't work for marvel and DC much because there is ZERO crossover between adaptation and source. But sales of both The Walking Dead and Invincible exploded when their shows were airing.

Marvel/DC just shoot themselves in the foot by never fucking adapting anything properly or having any consistency in their source material. Imagine the recent X-men show comes out on Disney+, and you go to read up on what the X-men are doing these days and what you find is fucking Krakoa. And thats not a recent problem, the comics side of franchises like the Teen Titans if anything seem to have nothing but utter resentment that the show's version of the characters were the ones that got popular and went out of their way to be anti-show on purpose.

>>144301006
Copey the Clown bullshit

All those years sucking marvel dick only for this to happen. Congrats on ruining /co/

>>144301312
>I'm curious, did the sales of Spider-Man comics actually increase while Spider-Man cartoons were airing?

You have to keep in mind, the 90s Spider-Man cartoon aired late 1994 to 1998, at that time the comic market was getting fucked and Marvel proceeded to fuck everyone's shit up by deciding to self-distribute by exclusively using Heroes World. This caused the domino effect that led to Diamond being the sole comics distributor. As a result I don't think there's any charts combining the Heroes World Marvel stuff and the Diamond charts of 1995-1996, and you also have to keep in mind comic shops were closing down and supermarkets and stuff were starting to get away from selling comics altogether, so this would create a distorted view on how the comics were selling.

On top of that, the show started just as the Clone Saga got underway. Supposedly one of the reasons the Clone Saga dragged out so long is because higher-ups or marketing were seeing sales on the Clone Saga going well and asking editorial to stretch it out. It might be that they looked at the data wrong and it was because retailers were ordering more due to customers who were getting into the book because of the cartoon, but we'll never know.

>>144301569
Tell me about it the didio shills were even worse

>>144301536
>And thats not a recent problem, the comics side of franchises like the Teen Titans if anything seem to have nothing but utter resentment that the show's version of the characters were the ones that got popular and went out of their way to be anti-show on purpose.
What are you talking about? Don't you remember the old TTGo comics?

>>144300974
Manga came here and it was just more accessible and appealing to a way bigger audience than Marvel and DC's audience. They didn't take away from Marvel and DC's sales, they filled a void that Marvel and DC wasn't reaching. To explain what they did wrong and why Marvel and DC didn't have that audience you have to go back 50 years to when they sabotaged the whole industry just to put a competitor (EC) out of business.

>>144300974
Both DC and Marvel chased adult fans and collectors in the 90s, which killed the kid market. Instead of trying to get that market back, they gave up and went "kids just don't like comics anymore, nuffin we can do :^)" which left a massive vacuum that manga filled.

You look at the best selling manga in the west, it's all stuff that comics doesn't cater to anymore. No cheesy but fun action-adventure stories for kids, no legitimately serious stories for adults, no superhero deconstructions that still show respect for the conventions of the genre. All the west gets is the same stale superhero characters trotted out where their concept of "serious adult stories" is just the same costumed goofball stories but they swear and there's gore now.

>>144301006
>Simple explanations with scapegoats you can point the finger at to blame.
The explanation is incredibly simple. Western comics refused to give audiences what they wanted, so they turned to manga. It is so unambiguously simple that it's almost a faux pas to say it.

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>>144300974
because western completely failed to create multimedia synergy

THEY FAILED TO:

>a. present a cheap pipeline to fame for creators
what drives consumption of manga is 100% anime. this is a straight benefit to mangakas.
a western creator's only hope of ever attaining something like that is getting movie or tv adaptations, are those are a 100 times rarer than animation
simply put, no creator is interested in putting in the effort because there's good no cost-benefit in comics
>b. stop thinking like IP farms and diversify their companies and allow multiple types of publication contracts
there was a time when they tried in the 80s but they have pretty much given up in "low intensity" book like creator owned, graphic novels, etc. Their webcomic efforts are fucking laughable and EVERYTHING HAS TO BE DERIVATIVE OF THEIR IPS, LEAVING NO SPACE FOR GROWTH. To booth, indie companies who work this exclusively can't keep up either
>c. create working relationships with multimedia assets
DCAU and MCAU are too little, too late, and too rooted in demographics hunting instead of creating a fandom. And since animation in the USA fucking died, there's nobody interested in doing quick & dirty adaptations of independent comics. TV is just too high fucking budget to work on the scale where you get synergy, not to mention hollywood and the other major studios hate this and legitimately consider adaptations of comics to be second rate work.

so there's a massive gap where "career mangaka" would fit in in the west. We only have the cheap foreign fucks working for sweatshop cents, TV pitch sleazebags or the super autistic fucks who do it for sheer love of the medium. People with talent go somewhere else, they don't see benefit in comics.

Co close, comic companies failed to develop lateral growth and focuses solely in vertical growth (and financial shenanigans / scamming collectors)

tl;dr what killed the industry is 4 decades of navel gazing.

>>144300974
it's over they're shutting down in two weeks

>>144300974
Where's Dav Pilkey in that chart? Last I heard he was singlehandedly doing to manga numbers what manga did to comic numbers.

>how did we end up being outsold by manga imports
Because comics are shit. What's a recent comic with a sense of humor that will make me laugh?

>>144300974
capeshit was just a fad thaw went on too long, like isekai

>>144301239
So prove it anon we’re still waiting lol

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https://youtu.be/L83BInSlits?si=4OMmVuTx6h3TO3X2&t=19

Can’t they just copy the Japanese at this point? Just create cool characters (STOP KEKING THEM) and make a cool energetic theme.

>>144301536
Invincible isn't a faithful adaptation.

>>144301312
The comics aren't the moneymaker. The adaptations and merchandise are. The comics exist to produce more ideas to be used for future adaptations.

>>144300974
Because the Big Two have systematically fucked over their client base by being overpriced SJW garbage that doesn't appeal to the white male demographic (the majority of nerds). Meanwhile, I'm reading Kobayashi Dragon Maid and it's got cute girls, cool guys, badass fights, emotional scenes, and no black people. It's great.

>>144301236
Shonen's what most people care about in terms of manga and anime. Just like with superheroes. It's the same shit.

>>144301151
>Only zoomers fail to see this.
Quit blaming us for everything you middle aged asshole.

>>144300974
>What killed American comics
Time. Everything dies, sooner or later.

>>144301839
We've been through a whole era of cryaby bitchboy protags. Seeing a hothead delinquent protag nowadays is a breath of fresh air, and seeing the crybaby nerd getting demoted to side character's great too.

>>144301750
Funny you should say that. As much as I loathe the concept behind Hazbin Hotel/Helluva Boss, fucking credit to the autistic trannie where credit is due - she fucking slaved away on her shit until it became quality in style (if not substance) and got it published. Same thing with Zack, the Oneyplays guy, who was fucking hustling and getting better and getting contacts, and now he's renewed for a 3rd season. So there's absolutely room for it, but most suits are too fucking retarded to see it.

>>144301866
it's 90% similar, every single spider-man cartoon was nothing like the comics

>>144301834
https://zoroanime.se/watch/mahou-shoujo-ni-akogarete?ep=1

>>144301899
30 is 15-20 years from middle aged and I see you didn’t disagree with my actual point thus proving me right lol seethe more faggot

>>144301920
J.P. Morgan rules Wall Street for 150 years now

>>144301948
>I-I-I’m a coomer so it’s good!! I promise!

>>144301068
>stop having the direct market ongoings appeal to anyone but the people who shop there

those people will all be dead by 2040, without exception

>Have a separate contuinty

that would duplicate all the production costs while splitting the readership, by your own implication

the simpler and most cost-effective thing to do, since the declining sales until 2040 will otherwise be unavoidable, is to dump the direct market and the LCS model entirely - if LCS owners don't like it, so what? they can still sell the things just like any other magazine retailer, and they'll need alternative product lines to sell anyway since the fatties are due a mass extinction

but there won't be 700 new DC titles in a 12-month period if you're selling to real retailers with their actual crowds, because nobody's got space for 60 shelf-warming comic books about the same rehashed stories over and over every month

being forced into the big boy stores will force publishers to innovate for the first time in decades, reducing their output will concentrate minds both on whose writing/art actually sells, who meets deadlines with good work and who's really buying the books now and likely to buy them tomorrow

destroy the LCS model and the grease-stain vagrants who gatekeep it or comic books die and take the LCS model with them, something we're already seeing

fuck your noise, too

>>144302058
>but there won't be 700 new DC titles in a 12-month period
Good.

>>144302058
>those people will all be dead by 2040
You must have missed
>They’re not too old, they’re not dying, they’re not impossible to please.
20 and 30 year olds aren’t dying in 16 years.
Kill yourself.

>>144302058
>the simpler and most cost-effective thing to do, since the declining sales until 2040 will otherwise be unavoidable
>completely kill all revenue streams in order to take on even more financial risk because in 16 years your 20-35 year old customers will be, apparently, dead of old age.
>focus on retailers you have zero relationship or trust built up with who are also losing customers rapidly
>this is brilliant because I hate LCS!!
Also, this is pants on head retarded logic

>>144301894
Except even within the narrow bounds of shounen there's tons of variety. The most popular shounen manga in the world is a swashbuckling pirate adventure that runs alongside everything from ninja battles to science fiction battle action.

>>144300974
>asks on a site that pirates comics

>>144301750
>>a. present a cheap pipeline to fame for creators

Not just what you say, but the Japs have actual pipelines for new talent. There's the thriving doujin scene that's absolutely gigantic and has been going for decades where people are encouraged to make their own amateur knock-off works that are distributed and celebrated at major conventions. This has been a consistent way for new talent to catch the eye of mainstream publishers. That just doesn't exist in the West, you try selling, say, an amateur Spider-Man comic and watch how fast a Disney legal strike team kicks down your door to choke-slam you into the floor.

Then there's the tons of contests and awards for new talent that encourage people to try their hand at manga with winners getting offers to be published in the big leagues. Why don't Marvel/DC even try to do this?

>>144302637
That makes more sense than asking the few who are still paying Marvel/DC to serve them trash

>>144302058
Without the direct market they wouldn’t have the cash flow to invest in other markets. I never see floppyfags claim every other format needs to DIEDIEDIE yet you weirdos constantly seem to demand floppies die with zero regard for financial reality.

I find anons suggestion that they completely separate the two continuities more tenable than “KILL FLOPPIES NOWWWWWWW BECAUSE I DONT LIKE THEM”

>>144302058
Marvel and DC didn't turn to the direct market model for fun, they did it because newsstands disappeared and regular stores stopped carrying their books because it's not a good profit-space ratio for them. Why would it be any different now? What retailer is champing at the bit to carry floppies?

>>144302688
>There's the thriving doujin scene that's absolutely gigantic and has been going for decades where people are encouraged to make their own amateur knock-off works that are distributed and celebrated at major conventions. This has been a consistent way for new talent to catch the eye of mainstream publishers. That just doesn't exist in the West, you try selling, say, an amateur Spider-Man comic and watch how fast a Disney legal strike team kicks down your door to choke-slam you into the floor.
yes and no. dojins aren't "legal" and can be striken down, but they are more or less what passes for comix there, nobody cares to dig the low-cost underground so it's left alone.

And that DOES exist. Webcomics (and cartoon strips) are the western equivalent to the dojin scene. And it HAS moved money and even had hits of it's own. But it exists as completely separate from traditional comics companies and they have had 0 interest in publishing either smarthphone consumable media (only too late with the marvel infinity meme) or HTML enhanced media when it was big. Or the ACTUALLY INTELLIGENT MOVE that would have been creating a webtoons-like platform themselves. They missed all those boats and now there's multiple entire generation of webcomics creators that came and went and did not care for "mainstream" comics.

>>144302786
>What retailer is champing at the bit to carry floppies?
maybe stop making floppies

>>144302790
>. Webcomics (and cartoon strips) are the western equivalent to the dojin scene.

No, they'e not. Those exist in Japan too, there's a whole separate domain of self-published web manga.

The reason being

>ut it exists as completely separate from traditional comics companies

The doujin scene is part of the larger manga publishing industry. Not in the sense that it's part of the business but that it's been a known proving ground and feeder for the publishers for decades.

The equivalent would be American Comikets where amateurs can gather and share Marvel/DC fan comics while the publishers look on approvingly and search for new talent. That doesn't and will never exist here, though.

>>144302836
>No, they'e not. Those exist in Japan too, there's a whole separate domain of self-published web manga.
brother, you are aware dojin means "self-published", right? japs don't distinguish between web and print, they are the same scene.

>>144302836
>The equivalent would be American Comikets where amateurs can gather and share Marvel/DC fan comics while the publishers look on approvingly and search for new talent. That doesn't and will never exist here, though.
That has existed, it just fell out of fashion during the 90s.

There's even a scene of collectors of old cape porn parodies

I know everyone on /co/ hates him but all I can think about with these threads is Brevoort’s joke about how he’s heard comics are dying since he entered the industry. And he was around for the 90s crash

>>144302911
it's all an elaborate cope, people make these threads to vent about modern capeshit being cheap.

They can't all just collectively agree they are wasting their time and their hobby is dead, it's too emotionally damaging, so they either pass the blame to bad actors or pretend the entire industry is dying to not feel bad about it

>>144302911
Which is weird cause he's right, it has been dying since he's entered the industry. The 90s spike was a weird outlier, the capeshit market has been shrinking for decades. Dying doesn't mean dead, and pointing to current continued sales in the tens of thousands a month (with the very occasional "hit" doing hundreds of thousands) when sales used to be orders of magnitude greater isn't the zinger he seems to think it is.

>>144302948
Genuinely don't understand what you're trying to say here. You say they can't agree that their hobby is dead but also that it's just pretending that the industry is dead? Do you mean that capeshit is just one niche aspect of the overall American comic market and that it is dead while the greater market itself is fine?

>>144303015
their hobby is capeshit. capeshit is not the industry.

>Do you mean that capeshit is just one niche aspect of the overall American comic market and that it is dead while the greater market itself is fine?
Yes. Indies have only grown, never shrinked.

>>144303035
But aren't indies also a negligible niche? The American comic market right now is dominated by kid-focused Scholastic books on the one hand and manga on the other.

>>144302802
See:
>>144302749
>>144302586

>>144300974
A combination of those factors, and already dyed in the wool, hardcore manga readers educating everyone on the fact that Manga by and large is hand drawn and written by ONE guy the ENTIRE SERIES piqued a lot of interest.

Also, Capeshit movies ruined everything else. I can't begin to express my hate for Marvel Studios or Disney.

>>144302786
>they did it because newsstands disappeared and regular stores stopped carrying their books because it's not a good profit-space ratio for them
Because Marvel and DC stopped making comics that appealed to those markets. Instead of readjusting to cover as many bases as possible, they gave up and focused on what they thought was the most profitable, which in turn resulted in a major crash.

>>144303052
>But aren't indies also a negligible niche?
So? objectively speaking indies have only sold more and gotten more relevant for the last 30 years. They are niche for print but their impact in the industry is pretty large.

>The American comic market right now is dominated by kid-focused Scholastic books
We could spent hours arguing whether this is real domination since Scholastic has a lowkey monopoly via school fair deals. Though I'm sincerely not sure if the are a creator owner comp or not. If they are, well, they have objectively helped grow the industry.

>>144300974
Manga has been outselling comics since the mid 2000s tho'

>>144303110
almost no kids books are creator owned.

>>144303078
She continuously avoids these posts. Tells me she’s more interested in baiting.

>>144302802
They've been selling tpbs at bookstores since the 80's, probably before you were born. Even still they couldn't compete with manga when the 2000's boom came out.
The style of art and writing is just more popular.

>>144300974
>What killed American comics
People thinking comics are lame and not giving a shit about them compared to other entertainment mediums. You could make the coolest comic ever and most people wouldn't care because they aren't going to bother with comics period.

>>144302911
they are not dying anon, they are dead, not even 1% of all kids in this generation ever brought a single damn marvel comic in their lives

>>144303110
>We could spent hours arguing whether this is real domination since Scholastic has a lowkey monopoly via school fair deals
Money is money and discounting a market because you don't like it is dumb. It's also why the people saying "stop making direct market floppies" are also dumb. Comics should be trying to diversify in as many directions as possible.

>>144303095
>Because Marvel and DC stopped making comics that appealed to those markets.
you have no idea what you're talking about.
Newstand distribution dried up because they wanted comics to be /more/ expensive and made minimum margins on comics. Genres dried up in part because newstand distribution was dying out for comics all through the 70's and 80's
If anything, comic shops lead to more actual diversity in what publishers were making.

>>144303252
It's insane how not even 1% of all american kids ever brought a single marvel comic, meanwhile at the very least 10% got at least one manga on their shelves.

And we are talking about USA, if we compare the ammount of american kids reading capeshit to japanese kids reading shonen this will get depressing.

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>>144301894
Even then shonen is a fucking WIIIIIDE variety of characters and situations from demon hunting, ninjas, robots, giant robots, magic wizards, ghosts, soccer, time travel, etc.

It's a lot more than a guy in tights named Something Man who fights The Evil Guy and next month's Evil guy..


But I'm getting ahead of myself because all of that shit stopped being printed back in 2019. Now it's the deeply personal life of Something Man and how he cannot get his life together, and there is a villain that might show up for a page or two and is defeated off panel just to remind readers that Something Man still does actually fight crime. Just not really on a page from start to finish in the last 5 years. A story takes 2 or more years to complete because a monthly book only ever has bits and fragments of a storyline. And the story is always going to be intricately relevant to something that happened 40 years ago that the reader needs intimate knowledge about.

>>144303274
You can make all the excuses you want, the simple matter is moms are not going to let their kids get comics at the newsstands if those comics aren't kid friendly, and when you're a superhero comic company then getting kids invested in the comics enough to drive merch sales is vital to financial success. You can and should absolutely use the direct market to diversify the types of comics you can sell to older readers, but that doesn't mean throwing away the kid audience like they did.

So not a lot of talk about stuff like the didio regime and other things that drove business decisions

>>144303496
f you wanted look for industry gossip, you formatted the op wrong.
i'm honestly clueless how to help how to make a proper gossip bait thread, just ain't my topic of interest

>>144303351
>You can make all the excuses you want, the simple matter is moms are not going to let their kids get comics at the newsstands if those comics aren't kid friendly,
>kids buying comics
nigga stuck in 1983. get with the times, you are talking 30 years stale nonsense

>>144303351
Parents buy their kids manga with way more extreme content than anything on kid's TV . I'd say half the appeal for action manga is how much farther it goes than the tepid media pushed on kids.
You go to a bookstore and most of the kid's manga is next to light ecchi stuff. If it was a big enough deal to push away moms, it wouldn't be as popular as it is now.

>>144303334
>>144303252
>brought
Are you ESL?

>>144303351
By this logic most manga aren’t kid friendly either…

>>144303496
/a/ fags just always derail things it’s an infestation allowed by some of the laziest mods on 4chan.

>>144303872
>derail
read the op, then copy it and post here

>>144303188
Almost all of them are. That's the norm for publishing, the Marvel/DC work-for-hire model is the outlier. Dav Pilkey owns Captain Underpants and Dog Man, for example.

>>144303918
Anon that’s simply not true, I don’t know what else to say to this. You chose the only person other than JK Rowling that retained creator rights and those two are in many ways the reason it isn’t the norm.

I have nothing more to say to you if you’re going to ignore reality like this.

>>144301280
No I don't, because it's extremely obvious and looks bad

>>144303717
Where I am, anything that's sexual is wrapped in plastic.

>>144303344
Cape comics exist to produce ideas for adaptations which are the real money makers. The anime adaptation for a manga exists to advertise the manga. It's a whole other context, a wholly different system. You're comparing apples to oranges.

>>144301151
1. There are always some good anime every single season
2. Miyazaki has been using cgi from before you were even born.

>>144301151
>ust that there hasn’t been a single good, let alone well-made, anime series in well over a decade
Bullshit. odd taxi alone disapproves this.

>>144300974
REMINDER THAT THIS IS FUCKING BOOKSTORE SALES. /co/ REFUSES TO COUNT COMIC SHOPS BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T SUPPORT THE NARRATIVE.

ALSO A REMINDER THAT MANGA DISCUSSION IS OFF-TOPIC.

>>144300974
STEP 1: THE CRASH (WHICH WAS CAUSED BY): Making comics for speculators and collectors rather than readers.

STEP 2: THE DEATH (WHICH WAS CAUSED BY): Politics.


Seriously, that's it. Those two things killed American comics.

facebook
twitter
socialmedia
fornite
facebook games
smartphone
vidya uberpopular (2005-2012)
youtubers/streamers
instagram

and I'am pretty sure that the list goes on

>>144300974
it's just the current culture of self censorship and political correctness in the west. Japs are not limited by those things so they have more freedom to create something entertaining that appeal to a wide variety of people.

>>144302058
You are a giant faggot and this is by far the worst post in the thread.

>>144303035
20,000 for indies was LOW in the 80s. Now they couldn't even imagine selling that high as an average.

Indies have done nothing but decline in sales.

>>144303095
That has no basis in reality. You know NOTHING about the history of the comics business.

>>144303717
Yeah I remember a librarian a on talking about how kids would come in looking for manga and how they'd always have a hard time promoting comics to kids.

>>144307731
No he hasn’t the first time he used CGI was in spirited away. Anyone who tells you he used it in mononoke for the demon boar is spreading bullshit, that single scene took a year to animate. And even then it’s 6 years younger than me.

And name 10 good anime from the last 5 years that didn’t use CGI if they’re so good.

>>144303245
Anime and manga had a similar stigma, arguably even worse since it was seen as weird and pervy jap shit for unwashed losers doing naruto runs or dancing hare hare yukai, and look where it is now.

>>144309462
>And name 10 good anime from the last 5 years that didn’t use CGI if they’re so good.
I like how you changed from 10 years to 5 years but: Revue movie, Odd Taxi, Pui Pui Molcar, Megalobox, Mob Psycho, Id;Invaded, Sonny Boy, Inu oh, Aria movie, Rilakkuma and Kaoru

>>144309155
>why won't the children read about strong diverse women putting men in their place and explaining the importance of pronouns?!?!1
One can only imagine xir struggle to get kids away from manga.

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>>144300974
The difference is that manga are treated a full project that, will be adapted in anime and expanded in games.

American comics do their own thing separate from the movies, and then the games do their own thing. You can't be a fan of the story of Spider-man because there is no story of Spider-man. You can only like the superficial things like the costume and web-slinging, which doesn't work when you're dealing with a mature audience.

>>144309630
You said a few every year, 5 years should have been sufficient.

Mob psycho 100 is fucking horrible, megalo box is two words (this makes me think you have never actually watched it) and also dogshit, revue starlight and aria are awful. Including pui pui molcar makes me think all of this was a shitpost. Id;invaded is more hideous cgi infested shit. Frankly most of these over-use CGI for backgrounds and assets.

Thank you for admitting you just gargle on slop.

>>144309740
>The difference is that manga are treated a full project that, will be adapted in anime and expanded in games
Why the comma?

>>144301151
>there hasn’t been a single good, let alone well-made, anime series in well over a decade
do you watch actually watch anime regularly or do you just dismiss everything because you didn't like one (1) popular series

>>144308093
comic shops are dying

>>144309747
>t. retardwith no taste
Pui pui molcar is awesome and oozes of soul you absolute faggot. The only slop is that small brain residing in your head. I might as well ask you to name 10 good cartoons and say "they are awful" whatever response you will give me.

>>144309747
>You said a few every year, 5 years should have been sufficient.
Bu that shouldn't matter. Are you afraid that you statement how "no good anime has been made in 10 years" is incorrect? In which case you are dumb and already contradicting yourself so discussion is pointless.

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>>144300974
I never understood how Marvel and DC didn't try to copy the way Japanese adapt their mangas into anime. Just pick a run/event and give it a good animated adaptation. World War Hulk is pure shonen anway.

>>144309803
>>144309818
>oozes of soul
>afraid that you statement
You sound ESL lol

>I might as well ask you to name 10 good cartoons and say "they are awful" whatever response you will give me.
Why would this have anything to do with the discussion? I never said American media is good. I’m just sick of you zoomers imagining modern anime is good at all. Manga is still quite good but the anime is cheap, lazy dogshit. It’s almost like you forgot the point of the discussion, me refuting that anime is cheap and abundant because animators give their lives and souls rather than being cheap and abundant because it’s lazy and CGI infested these days.

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>>144300974
Manga is superior. Those are the raw facts.

You can analyze it and come up with extensive rationalization for why it's the case, but why bother?

>>144309869
As has been said ITT western media isn’t about the media it’s about justifying an entire production team’s paychecks since they have to do things like hire entire teams of writers per union requirements (this is why nobody should have supported SAG or WGA).

These writers and showrunners and designers and story borders all make change flyer change after change out of ego and out of a disdain for source material. They say shit like “if you want a 1:1 adaptation you might as well go read the comic”.

TLDR; Western media is basically unable to make 1:1 adaptations because union requirements force them to make changes

>>144310202
*change after change after change

>>144310188
It’s not inherently superior it’s merely made with more genuine interest and intent these days. Less corporate. Inherently they’re just comics, it’s the corporatized industrial entertainment complexes of the west that ruin our media.

Not to say this isn’t a reality in Japan but their pipeline isn’t as closed off to outsiders, American media is purely full of cronyism and nepotism.

>>144310154
Ok then give me 10 good new manga.

>>144303261
>Money is money

Marvel and DC haven't been "for profit" companies in DECADES. You don't know what you're talking about.

>>144303274
>If anything, comic shops lead to more actual diversity in what publishers were making.

This guy gets it.

>>144303351
This is absolute nonsense. NOTHING in your post is even partially based in reality. You're just speaking in cliches.

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>>144309155

>>144309793
Changes nothing. The sales in LCSes disproves your delusions.

>>144310229
This is beyond delusional.

>>144301239
>godfather of isekaislop

>>144310923
>everything anon said is true
>but because he didn’t agree that comics are inherently better than comics you melt down

>>144310154
>You sound ESL lol
t. ESL

>>144310229
>Less corporate.
LEL
They're corporate as fuck. The word you might be looking for is "efficient" since the japanese industry works like a well-oiled machine, while the burger one is a total mess

>>144310913
You mean the sales of the buildings where they used to be? That's more about real estate than comic books...

>>144310264
Last manga I read a was Sazan and comet girl and I liked that quite a bit. You seem extremely defensive about anime in particular.

>>144311023
The only thing the western industry has is meeting deadlines which means they’re the same in that regard, just on different schedules - weekly vs monthly. We’re at the point of semantics though so this seems fruitless and meaningless to discuss. I also don’t see why you’re acting like I’ve defended American comics.

Have a good one

>>144311030
>>144311030
>sazan and comet girl
It's horrible. Any better examples?
>You seem extremely defensive about anime in particular.
Well when your answers were the most generic shit ever of course I would point out how retarded your logic sounds.

>>144311023
I think they mean it's something made by content creators and then accepted by editors that then give it to executives that decide if they will be the manga creator partner by buying a share of the rights and give them money to hire their own team.
Meanwhile at least in the Big 2 the comics are all executives ideas and belong to them while the writers try their best to make it look less shitty.

Also big 2 writers are not content creators nor owners of the characters like mangakas.

>>144311088
Lol go outside faggot, you’re taking this way too personally.

>>144311160
>g-go outside!
The classic cope. Whatever. Too many children on /co/ these days.

>>144311144
For the last few years a lot of the IPs start as free web novels, if they're popular enough, they get edited and published as light novels. From there they get manga adaptations and then an anime using that as the storyboard. Each step on the path gauges the public interest in the story and those different formats all act as cross marketing for the others. (some skip a step here or there but that's basically the IP track in Japan)
In the west they're focused on how much sodomy they can include in books ostensibly made for children.

>>144311184
>way too many children
>after melting down that your zoomer anime are all cgi dependent dog shit
Lol

>>144304860

Same here, but some of those titles do get opened and the staff either do not have access to shrink wrap tools, or do not care to return the book to shipped status.

However ignoring the more gratuitous options, say - Prison School, or Tenjo Tenge there are comics and manga out there which have content that goes beyond the normal safe boundaries by a few feet. As a child I liked monster movies, so naturally I was drawn to monster comics - which not only featured some frightening imagery, but would also sometimes feature a well drawn female form, etc. What I'm getting at is some times it's not out there on front street.

Adam Hughes run on the Justice League back in the day is a great example. I had very little interest in the Justice League, however my interest was piqued by the big titted green haired character in the book. Adam Hughes drawing the shit out of Fire was my gateway to the Justice League.

This may be less prevalent in the modern Big Two publishing arena due to stricter controls, and fewer avenues for artists in comics. Nobody with a brain is going to work in such a corrupt and vile medium.

TLDR: Comics and manga can sometimes contain content younger minds will find stimulating, that adults will overlook when purchasing because "It's just a comic/manga."

>>144311088
NTA but I don’t believe you’ve ever read Sazan, it’s one of my favorite manga in recent memory. Feels like you’re just lashing out

>>144311240
What you’ve described isn’t corporate at all

>>144301239
this isn't good, it's clearly traced over a 3D model, it's stiff as hell.

You are confusing gold with a polished turd. It's still a turd.

>>144311459
>melting down
So pointing out your retarded childish logic is melting down? Your way of talking is full of stock phrase and cliches that only zoomers use. Talk like an adult and you will be treated like one, son.

>>144311472
When one of a handful of corporations buys the IP (often effectively buying the author or mangaka) it becomes very corporate. The writer for a couple of popular series was effectively locked in a conference room when he started missing deadlines. The WNs are organic but once a publisher like Kadokawa is involved that starts to change as they're edited into LNs.

>>144311510
Take my advice or don’t, kid, I don’t care you just seem to be taking this extremely personally and seriously. Going for a walk and breathing through your nose for a bit could be good for you. Have a nice day.

>>144311546
Every creative decision is made from above in western capeshit. That’s a level of corporatism not seen in the East. Forcing them to hit deadlines isn’t quite the same.

>>144311613
Concession accepted.

>>144311660
My point is that corporatism has different flavors. In the east, corporations want to sell products to customers and they've figured out a method to cross-promote while determining what products consumers prefer.

>>144311023
Nah, it's genuinely less corporate.
It's why you see more anime that are adaptations of webmanga and why you see so many manga that are made by creators who got their start making porn (often published under the same name they used for their porn).

>>144311477
>it's clearly traced over a 3D model
It's not, you're blind as fuck.

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>>144311980
oh god we really did get to the point newfags can't tell it apart don't they?

check out ANY documentary on how the study makes anime. It IS drawn over 3D model, sometimes they don't even bother to and put an "anime lineart filter" on top of the model ie berzerk

>>144301239
This looks hideous

>>144312157
You're fucking retarded, please god kill yourself.

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>>144308093
>/co/ REFUSES TO COUNT COMIC SHOPS BECAUSE THAT WOULDN'T SUPPORT THE NARRATIVE.
Or more because bookstore sales make up the majority of comic sales in America.

>>144312157
>study
ESL kek.

>>144312157
>>144312157
>that image
Odd taxi is not like that and it mogs 99% of modern animation.

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>>144312165
cope all you want, even japs make fun of it

>>144312259
see
>>144312235

>>144312253
not all studios are like that. trigger explicitly refuses to do models for drawing people

>>144312165
>childish reply that doesn’t attempt to discuss the point

>>144312387
I just gave you an example that is not like that. Are you retarded?

>>144312402
see
>>144312235

>>144312417
no, i just don't care for your favs

>>144307660
I feel like that is something manga does much much better than cape comics. it's very cheap and efficient to have a 1-2 man operation churn out a quick comic, that a publisher can cram into a book with about 5 other cheap operations, with at least 3 of them getting somewhere and getting media adaptations in cartoons, film, and games, With the publisher continuously rotating the 5-7 different cheap operations over and over and over again until something lands and gets even more media spinoffs.

Meanwhile cape comics endlessly churning out Superman, Spider-Man, and Batman adaptations forever and ever and ever is reaching diminishing returns on all fronts.

>>144303344
Confirmed for never reading comics

fuck off casualfag

>>144312496
>admits he is retarded
Well what can you expect from an esl? Living in a 3rd world shithole has to suck.

>>144307660
>The anime adaptation for a manga exists to advertise the manga.
not in the west, the anime moves much more merch the manga ever will.

And I'm honestly not convinced it isn't just like that in Japan. TV mogs print no matter the culture.

>>144312539
please tell me you are 13 and just in shock over the 3D thing.

>>144307660
Anime adaptations are a quick cash grab for something moderately popular so they can sell toys, shirts, and stickers etc. don't pretend it is anything more. All adaptations are nothing but money makers.

>>144301151
>I completely agree western comics need adaptations but just look at invincible. Everything made in the west ends up getting changed to suit a diversity checklist and the egotistical whims of the show runner. Most people in the western entertainment industry genuinely act like 1:1 is unnecessary and stupid to expect. “J-j-just go read the comic if you want that!”
It doesn't help that most western comics are absolutely trash. Especially modern ones, there are no good ones left.

>kid got so triggered he starts trolling
el oh el

>>144312561
It's okay I understand your situation. Being born in a poor family is harsh but calm down, ok? Don't take it that personal, there are others with worse life.

>>144307660
>Cape comics exist to produce ideas for adaptations which are the real money makers.
Most superhero movies and shows that aren’t Spider-Man are bombing.

>>144312572
Has nothing to do with it actually even if I agree. Feels more like you just wanted to shit on comics nobody is defending

>>144312572
This and based. I haven't touched western comics in a decade. They are absolute trash.

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>>144312679
the last 10 posts are all from one incredibly triggered kid trying to ruin the thread because... i honestly have no idea what set him off.

>>144312682
What is Jim lee even doing at dc

>>144312540
>the anime moves much more merch the manga ever will.
Uhh, anon, the main "merch" for most anime IS the manga.

>>144312679
>Has nothing to do with it actually even if I agree.
It does, adaptations don't help when the material is garbage itself. Also I used to be a huge comics fan in the 90s but everything is capeslop nowadays and has been this way the last 20 years or so.
>to shit on comics nobody is defending
/co/ is always defending current capeslop which makes me sick. This board is full of low IQ people.

>>144312725
objectively not. the mangas are excellent collector status items but people buy tons of plushies, posters, dolls, and specially props and small portable trinkets.

To call anime "advertisement for the manga" when anime is the primary money is foolish. Anime is the objective of making a manga for most but a few mangaka.

>>144300974
Unironically you need to go back to what fucked the entire industry, IE Marvel turning absolutely fucking retarded and removing all quality standards after achieving like 70% market share, everyone copying them, and then they caused the speculator boom to print money while burning through about 30+ years of good will in 10 and completely killing their logistics and the ability of the actual bread and butter audience to even access shit let alone for it to grow any. Also the British invasion.

So basically what happened is, "Jim Shooter was fired, everyone else raped the industry to death, and after about 10 years the corpse finally stopped being propelled through the air by rotten jizz in its many holes and finally finished crashing completely" and absolutely nobody wants to fix it because being paid a shitload of money to barely work at all and get to play with the ultimate actionfigure collection, have it be canon just like they always wanted, all for the low low cost of sucking off whoever is the current editor and their pet project, is paradise for these 35 to 60 something faggots who want to die doing this job, ideally while sucking themselves off in their favorite superhero costume, so they do not want to have any of this situation change to the point that they're perfectly willing to lie and say that there's nothing they could ever do to fix it sorry.

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i find hilarious how nobody adresses the elephant in the room called "kids prefer videogames to comics"

biggest case of collective denial i've ever come across.

>>144312885
There is also Kids just don't prefer comics, in general. Not really compared to anything specific.

>>144312918
kids used to move around million sales an issue.
the 5th gen consoles and DOS happened and kids dropped comics like they were poisonous

>>144312722
charging tens of thousands of dollars for commissions in artist alley, apparently

>>144312797
>but people buy tons of plushies, posters, dolls, and specially props and small portable trinkets.
Anon, most manga don't get those, do you not realize how many manga there are out there at any one given moment?
That kind of merch is for more successful stuff, for the small names merch is a minuscule moneymaker compared to actual volume sales, especially as far as the mangaka is concerned.

>>144312955
>Anon, most manga don't get those
outside seasonal slop made to fill work gaps, most anime get merch of some kind.

>>144302688
>Then there's the tons of contests and awards for new talent that encourage people to try their hand at manga with winners getting offers to be published in the big leagues. Why don't Marvel/DC even try to do this?
I sat in on a thing where DC talked about their hiring process and feel free to call me a liar if you want, but when somebody asked if they hire new talent they said and I quote "DC isn't interested in being where you come to become great and learn, DC is interested in being where the Great come to stay and have a Career", they flat out refuse to hire new talent that isn't at least somehow established or somehow manages to find a way to build connections to get nepotismed into the business.

>>144312955
>for the small names merch is a minuscule moneymaker compared to actual volume sales, especially as far as the mangaka is concerned.
that is true, but i reiterate: The "soft power" Anime IS more profitable for the mangaka than the manga itself. The recognition is what matters, the sales become second fiddle.

>>144312976
but is that statement... true?
I know marvel absolutely loves putting thirld worlders in a sweatshop then ditching them unceremoniously. I always assumed DC did the same.

>>144312972
>outside seasonal slop made to fill work gaps
Which makes up the majority of anime.

>>144301894
I mean that's not really anon's fucking point now is it. Yeah shounen's the biggest but it's not like fucking comics where non-capeshit statistically is a blip. Eurotrash functionally might as well not exist outputwise and 90% of it that isn't disney shit is functionally capeshit as well.

>>144313013
I'd say around 60% desu. Its not like studios have no agency or content scouting talents.

>>144313018
>Yeah shounen's the biggest but it's not like fucking comics where non-capeshit statistically is a blip.
maus is statistically a blip?

i think you are imagining "non-capeshit" as "image indies" and not a whole spectrum of books, some with decades old staying power

>>144313006
DC and Marvel are largely eachothers feeding grounds and swap talents roughly every 5 or so years on average so maybe.

>>144313026
>I'd say around 60% desu.
I...do you not know what "majority" means?

>>144313047
>maus is statistically a blip?
Yes.
But more to the other anon's point, a decent amount of popular shonen properties are comedy and romance properties.
Nagatoro was a top-seller in America in 2022 and that's a shonen romcom.

>>144312991
I feel like you need to separate multi-season anime based off already popular manga/LNs from one-and-done low-budget stuff that's absolutely about selling print volumes of the LN or manga.

>>144313018
This.

>>144313047
Yes actually.

>>144313047
Outside of a few people, nobody cares that much about indies when most of them are autobiographicalslop.

>>144313076
yes and i'm pointing to you it's merely a technical majority and it isn't like studios have no agency, interest in their products or that OVAs never get made.

If this was 80% or 90% i'd agree with you.

>>144313165
Whelp, somebody call the Eisner Awards, their entire decades of influences are all meaningless.

>>144313103
I'm not saying there isn't a sales boost. But I'm saying "getting put on the popular culture map via anime" is probably what helps a mangaka the most.

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>>144313250
Yes, they are.
Have you looked at modern Eisner Award winners?
Fucking pic related is an Eisner winner.

>>144313273
>modern
that comic's nearly 15 years old

>Eisner
Please don't remind of when comics used to be good. WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED TO THIS INDUSTRY???

>>144313267
I get what you're saying but sometimes the primary creator of the IP is the LN author and the mangaka is just a hired gun to draw the story, again as part of a holistic approach to sell as much stuff as possible be it blu rays, print matter, statues etc.

>>144313284
Anon, that comic came out in 2015.

>>144313340
could have sworn it was 2012. Still, point stands

>>144312826
The start of the British invasion was the only time DC was good (also thanks to Frank Miller and the First Comics guys).

>>144310913
the direct market is minuscule compared to book stores

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>been reading a couple burger comics in my life
>then i found manga
>no color but holy shit the art is sharp
>much more fun stories and characters
>try and go back to burger comics
>got color but the art is quantity over quality
manga is superior

>>144313354
The point actually doesn't stand, since it's not like modern means "made in the last 10 years."
Anon was right, modern Eisner Awards are a joke, and have been for like 20 years now.

>>144313634
This looks like shit.

>>144313634
>>no color but holy shit the art is sharp
I wish I could agree with you but I read so many manga shameless art that i've been burned like a moth

>lightly disguised 3D backgrounds
>literal photos concealed with a filter
>abject visual disasters like gantz and vagabond

As a culture japs have excellent sense of aesthetics but jfc they use exclusively to cut corners

>>144313743
>Vagabond
>Abject visual disaster
What?

>>144313743
I've never had those problems. I've been reading Jiro Taniguchi's works recently and hell I am happy that I've switched from capeshit.

>>144313743
Japanese culture has been built around cutting corners and recycling for the entire existence of the Japanese people. It comes with developing on a volcanic archipelago with a ton of mountainous space, few resources, and high risk that everything you've built could be wiped out in an instant with a fire or typhoon or earthquake or volcano.

It also means the stuff they make is inexpensive as hell while also being relatively high quality for its price. They cut corners on the less important stuff so they can invest where it has the most impact.

>>144313743
no one cares about backgrounds unless it's heavy fantasy filling, it's fine to use shortcuts like that for weekly manga where the main appeal is the characters.

>>144313785
Never noticed? pay close attention to plants and houses

>>144313743
No western comic has been as exciting to read as Usogui or touched me as much as Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou

>>144313822
Ahh, so you're just shitposting.
Carry on.

>>144313848
>noo only 30% of the page must be actually drawn
one would think they reason they read picture books is the art

>>144313859
At least you're honest about shitposting.

>>144313743
Vagabond has better framing than 99% of western comics.

>>144313865
if shitposting means "stupid speedreador did not stop to check the art details in vagabond" then yes i'm totally shitposting

>>144313902
>speedreador
And an ESL at that?
Now I know you're just some butthurt shitposter.

>can't have a single discussion on comics as a industry without weebs too autistic for /a/ making it about their shit

>>144313926
Blame OP for using that image.
He knew what he was doing.

>>144313922
Don't mind him. He always spams when people make fun of his comics. He is just an angry kid.

I never wanted to be a weeb but pieces of shit like didio forced us to be

>>144313943
conversation was good at the start but then the fanboys started seeping in declaring their one obsession to be the poster boy of all manga and start literally screaming at random posters if they said anything that would discredit them

it's shit that would get them crucified if they did it in /a/. fucking expats.

>>144313979
I made fun of western comics plenty of time on /a/ and they agreed lol.

>>144301894
Shonen isn't a genre though. You've got
>Journey to the West parody that transformed into a martial arts tournament manga that turned into a sci-fi space brawl (Martial Arts/Adventure)
>In an ocean world full of Pirates with magic powers gained from eating fruit, one pirate wants to become King of them all (Adventure/Fantasy)
>A comedy about a bounty hunter who has to team up with the sister of his murdered partner and solve various crimes in the Shinjuku area (Comedy, Mystery)
>A guy wanders a post-apocalyptic wasteland fighting raiders and fellow martial artists (Post-apocalyptic, Martial Arts)
>The stories of a highschool basketball team's growths and struggles as they become one of the best teams in the country (Sports/Coming of age)
>After his father is killed by a mountain bear, a young dog runs away and builds up a dog army in order to track down and kill the bear (Dog adventure)
>The misadventures of a middle-aged beat cop working in Tokyo and his other police friends. (Comedy)
>A dark wizard is awakened in order to save a fantasy world inspired by heavy metal music (Dark fantasy/Post-Apocalyptic)
>A parody of romance mangas where the main girl is a crossdressing boy (Rom-Com)
>A hitman retires to live a normal life working at a convenience store. Can he maintain his new life when the world of hitmen tries to sneak back in? (Action Comedy)
>A girl who unwillingly brings bad luck to anyone who comes near her befriends a guy with the ability to regenerate at a rapid pace who wants to die. Hilarity ensues (Supernatural Comedy)
>A boy who's family is too poor to afford a robot maid like everyone else is surprised when a portly one becomes his new maid (Sci-fi Comedy)

These are all Shonen Jump titles ranging from the 70s to today. Shonen is a demographic, not a genre. You can't just boil it down to
>Dudes fighting each other in a tournament with various transformations and powerlevel wank

>>144313827
>or touched me as much as Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou
Sappy sol mangas are the eastern equivalent to autobio graphic novels

>>144314037
>Sappy sol mangas
YKK is not sappy at all. The character barely talk and there aren't that many expressions of sentimentality
> eastern equivalent to autobio graphic novels
The eastern equivalent of autobio graphic novels are autobio manga. There are plenty of them.

>>144313805
I do, art is the n° 1 reason I read print. it specifically bothers me when I see artists cutting corners.

>>144313899
fact, but the mangaka likes to cut corners in the more busy shots and gets sloppier at hiding it after the MC gets his leg cut and also jumps the shark hard there a wound like that straight up cripples you for life.

>>144314106
>fact, but the mangaka likes to cut corners in the more busy shots and gets sloppier at hiding it
That happens to almost every artist, but I think the contention is you referring to it as "an abject visual disaster" because of that, which just makes you sound like some kind of butthurt Euro white supremacist who's mad about people praising a manga and wants to "take it down a peg."

>>144300974
That's actually not bad when you combine the capeshit and "other". Manga is a neverending battle royale that shuffles through hundreds of ideas until something sticks. Capeshit is way too god damn risk-adverse and refuses to seriously promote new shit that isn't the convoluted lore that only dying old men care about.

>>144314165
Nah there's tons of mangaka that don't cut corners and each and everyone of them is precious.

I think I crossed a threshold in the "understanding how illustration works" area that blocks me out of appreciation comics and manga that are generally believe to be good. So yeah, every old master and kid who refuses to cave in to the easy way is precious to me.

Ironically Comics has some serious gatekeeping in this. You pull this off in comix or the fantagraphics crew and you better have a very good reason or they'll eat you alive for it. Capeshit however...

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>>144312157
>>144312165
>>144312235
>>144312253
ever wonder why the only styles animes have is stylized realism? 99% of them are either 3D models rawn over or rotoscoped.

>>144314220
PYW

>>144314225
>ever wonder why the only styles animes have is stylized realism?
Watch more anime. There are a lot of art styles and once again the one I've mentioned is nothing like that. You have 0 anime knowledge.

>>144314225
>ever wonder why the only styles animes have is stylized realism
Why does /co/ not know anything about...anything?
Whether it's comics, cartoons, anime, manga, video games, everyone here seems to be completely entry-level in literally every hobby they have.
It's like a board made up exclusively of children and NPCs.

>>144314220
>You pull this off in comix or the fantagraphics crew
What? I've read fantagraphics that has less effort put into the backgrounds than Bleach. You are delusional if you think they have some very tight quality control. It's better than average but not supreme.

>>144314264
>I've read fantagraphics that has less effort
Meant to say: I've read fantagraphics comics that had less effort

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>>144314225
The longest running animated anything (Anime or otherwise) most definitely doesn't have "stylized realism"

>>144314106
>, art is the n° 1 reason I read print.
It is for me too, but for character art, I don't get autistic about backgrounds.

>>144300974
Cape comics are an unbelievably inbred storytelling medium with minimal genre flexibility. It's basically impossible for them to compete with manga/webshit/etc.

>>144301345
>>144301515
Its because of Hollywood arrogance. Hollywood flatout refuses to do an accurate adaptation unless forced to at gunpoint. Even if a story would work perfectly fine as a movie/tv series they will change it because they want to leave their mark.

>>144302539
lol
Oh shit...you think 20 and 30 year olds are buying comics?
I'm not even kidding bro. Are you serious?

>>144314292
and it looks worse than any western cartoons.

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>>144314320
might as well stare at pin ups then. Art starts at panel level, ideally, the whole page is arranged as a single, sectioned panel

>>144314273
>>144314264
And i've also seen dozens of book closing statements of the artists agonizing over having to cut corners or figuring out always to set the style in such way they didn't need corners in the first place.

Not everyone in the scene needs to be ledroit level detailed about backgrounds, but they all worry that the (lack) of proper backgrounds will stand out and take steps to ameliorate their impact, however minimal it is.

To find filtered photos used to cut corners in comics like you do in some mangas you need to go straight into the indie landfill or the webcomics ghetto.

>>144314501
>might as well stare at pin ups then.
You could say the same for you and architectural journals.

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>>144314712
don't be a dumbass, background isn't just technical, it's the primary aesthetic element in a page. It sets the tone and enriches the themes

>>144314556
>To find filtered photos used to cut corners in comics like you do in some mangas you need to go straight into the indie landfill or the webcomics ghetto.
Or the big 2, since they do that all the time.
In fact, Fantagraphics basically IS the indie landfill, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

>>144314792
>Fantagraphics basically IS the indie landfill
avatar, dynamite, image vanity publics and of course the self-published scene.

Fantagraphics is "high brow" indie. different cliques, different pool of talent, etc etc

>>144314808
Right, and Fantagraphics is in the same tier as publishers like Dynamite and Avatar Press.

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>>144314758
Bros...what the fuck?
Where's the background?
How could an artist cut corners like this?
How could this happen...?

>>144301068
What you fools don't realise is that it doesn't matter what either the consumers or the executives want, because every young artist today is a queer progressive woman with an undercut. You couldn't get these people to create traditional comics no matter how much you paid them. If you guys want more comics that cater to you, guys like you are going to have to start going to art schools again and getting into the industry.

>>144303344
Even ones like Naruto, Bleach, and Soul Eater feel different from each other. 1st is a coming of age story with ninjas, 2nd is urban saint seiya with ghosts, and 3rd is a hybrid pf sorts that goes lovecraft.

And yes, Black Clover, MHA, Demon Slayer, JJK, and Chainsaw Man feel distinct.

>>144314871
choice of colour is background senpai.

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>>144314835
>n° 1 graphic novel, experimental art and classic curator in the industry
vs
>dime store capeshit & licenses
>the goreporn imprint

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>>144315022
An empty background is a cut corner no matter what anon.
So what gives, I thought you said you prefer artists that don't cut corners?
What's this?
Looks like a corner cut to me.

>>144301750
This is the actual truth. The death of Western comics has gone hand in hand with the death of traditional Western animation. If the West hadn't gone all in on the CG train and abandoned adult cartoons (that aren't just Adult Swim comedy slop), comics would have had a huge source of money that they don't have anymore.

>>144307660
>The anime adaptation for a manga exists to advertise the manga.
This is only true for the incredibly small few series that get to the top level of global popularity.

Outside of a dozen titles at the most in the last 30 years, the manga is an incredibly cheap and efficient proof of concept to pitch to anime studios for adaptations. All Jump is doing is funding series pitches for anime and game spinoffs.

>>144315037
>No, see, they're better because they publish self-aggrandizing wank and ugly garbage masquerading as deep
I didn't know they still made hipsters in your variety, I thought you all died off by 2019.

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>>144315045
>An empty background is a cut corner no matter what anon.
colour selection, usage of negative space, and context. Also you are nitpicking a single panel in a page when they are meant to be taken in as a whole. And for a fucking keraskoet comic you massive, clueless newfag.

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>>144315129
>Also you are nitpicking a single panel in a page
The fucking irony.
Uh oh, another missing background.
Cut corners, how disgusting and lazy.

>>144315111
dumb cunt, whether you like it or not fantagraphics became the most diverse and high quality publisher right now

do i even like it? No, Dave Groth is a cunt of the highest caliber and should have gotten his face caved in when he published that disaster of a kirby interview in 1991.

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>>144315145
haha holy shit kid take your antipsychotics you are losing you cool

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>>144315169
Sorry about your terrible taste anon, couldn't be me defending this lazy shite full of cut corners.
Backgrounds are the primary aesthetic element in a page after all.

>>144314919
Fucking art schools is where the bean mouth bullshit comes from.

>>144315182
>Backgrounds are the primary aesthetic element in a page after all.
definitely, i ain't gonna fault you for recognizing good art when you see it

>>144315054
I don't think you fully understand how deep this goes.
Traditional western animation died the day that traditional western art died.

At the hands of the wealthy few and military. They ruined art in this country and replaced it with retarded incomprehensible garbage made by perverted lunatic and wealthy controlled freaks they used to push certain ideals onto the public.

The power of art is undeniable. It's so powerful that there is an entire section of media and law dedicated to downplaying this fact and pushing the most insane retarded babbling foolishness as art on par with something that actuall has something to say.

>>144301151
Japan (and China) are willing to listen and improve along the way through iteration and experimentation while here in America those aren't allowed.

>>144315145
>>144315182
>filename obfuscation
dedicated shitposter scared of being found out in the archives?

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>>144315214
Sorry, but I don't consider art without a background good.
After all, it's the most important aspect, as we both agree.
As such, this comic you posted does not have good art, it's far too inconsistent, I would consider it an abject visual disaster of a comic with all these missing backgrounds.

>>144315217
nigga i'm gonna cut your conspiracy short

what you think is "art" was merely for-pay illustration meant to for advertisements and commissions.

That shit died with photography. The art scene comic up with dada and surrealism 10 years later has nothing to do with this. Technology killed traditional illustration aka art.

>>144312722
Same thing stan lee did
Lots of coke and barely legal blonde whores.

Only difference is that Stan is a ruthless monster of a business man and was a endlessly self promoter.
Jim is less so.

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>>144312826
>>144312826
>>144312826

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>>144315247
oh agree my friend, by the way are you done with your woodlands trips? I've run out of tree pictures to slap a black & white filter on..

>>144313979
The entire site is like this now.
It's flooded with barely intelligent people and malfunctioning bots.

This stupid back and forth is the dumbest shit ever.
Comics are not a collection of single pages. Everyone cuts corners. You focus on what delivers the most impact to the reader, and cut corners on stuff that doesn't matter as much, because it is impossible to deliver 100% effort on 100% of the book if you want it done a) affordably, and b) on time. Nobody gives a shit if the background you used is a traced stock image, or if the background is just a single coloured blank panel, if they're engaged in the story.

Although I will say, that's why manga releases special edition collections with better reworked art on nicer pages, so the people that do care that much can pay for the privilege.

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>>144315334
Sorry anon, background > no background.
It means less corners were cut.

>>144315386
yeah, sometimes less is more

ps thank you for shilling keraskoet for me

>>144315381
>Everyone cuts corners.
Yes, that is my point.
The other anon doesn't seem to understand that, and posted an example of comic art he liked, unaware that it also cuts corners, because everything that's made to be shared with other people on a decently large scale (ie. outside of you and your immediate friends/family) HAS to cut corners, because otherwise you end up with something like The Thief and the Cobbler; an expensive, unfinished project that looks amazing but ends up taking decades to complete, and has multiple animators die during its production and is basically completely forgotten because it's an unfinished narrative that's never going to be completed because most of the people who worked the most on it are long-dead.

>>144315439
>yeah, sometimes less is more
>>144314106
>it specifically bothers me when I see artists cutting corners.
So it sounds like it does NOT bother you when artists cut corners.
So why lie about it?

>>144315448
There's a difference between "cleverly cutting corners" and "shamelessly cutting corners".

Beautiful Darkness' single-tone backgrounds served a purpose and did not make me drop the comic in disgust. Unlike gantz or vagabond. And this isn't a problem only for these manga, Japs are completely shameless about it and do it in such cheap ways it detracts from the art.

And the western artist does a whole damn dissertation on why he chose that specific tone for that empty background while at best the jap half-asses an apology in a corner note

Christ nigga, I love manga, comics, BDs, but i'm not going to pretend any of them is perfect of "better" than the other unlike your autistic ass.

>>144315490
>Beautiful Darkness' single-tone backgrounds served a purpose
Which was?
No offense, but you're the last person who should be calling anyone autistic, when you are clearly autistic as fuck.

>>144315315
no, samefag

>>144315503
>Which was?
setting the mood, there's entire art books on how colour creates context and tone. you know nothing of this because you are too busy looking at tits on a 3D rendered washitsu

>>144315542
>setting the mood
>No, see, when I do it it's setting the mood, when you do it it's lazy!
Like I said, you are definitely autistic.

>>144315448
I would say that anon is a perfectionist, but given the fact that this is 4chan I doubt he's ever been perfectionist towards anything but optimal consumption of tendies.
The people with the highest standards tend to be the ones who don't make anything themselves.

>>144315386
>>144315334
I don't understand what's meant to be wrong with these images.

>>144315503
I'm not the one who flipped the fuck out and started trolling literal random posters because they misinterpreted someone as badmouthing anime then did again when told his fav manga cuts corners

literally a kid throwing a tantrum, now piss off.

>>144315598
>I'm not the one who flipped the fuck out
Anon, you've been bitching ITT for like 10 hours, even before that post.

>>144315591
vagabond was an early pioneer in using photoshop to arrange pictures for manga. What you see there is a couple heavily edited pictures of trees parsed through a B&W filter, noise and and a blur filter to make it harder to notice their are photos.

>>144315627
Okay.
I still don't see what's wrong with that image.

>>144315640
starts to get really jarring by ch. 160ish specially because you have already seen the author draw non-photoshopped scenery. Also Vagabond starts sucking after the Yoshiaka arc fuck you ghost sensei

>>144315615
since yesterday and it was honest good conversation before you flipped out

>>144315672
I've read all of Vagabond, never noticed it.
Again, I don't see the issue.

>>144315685
>since yesterday
Right, even more autistic than I previously thought.

>>144312955
>Anon, most manga don't get those
and most mangaka are living off peanuts they get paid so little

the sick joke is that even when a manga sells well, without an anime adaptation the mangaka rarely makes much of a living.

>>144315724
>and most mangaka are living off peanuts they get paid so little
That's most artists in general.
Art isn't a moneymaking venture unless you're a suit.
>the sick joke is that even when a manga sells well, without an anime adaptation the mangaka rarely makes much of a living.
What?
Most of the royalty money a mangaka makes comes from volume sales, most of the time they don't make shit from an anime adaptation.
See KNY's author talking about how they made more money from volume sales than they did from royalties from the movie, which pulled in over $500m USD at the box office.

>>144315760
>What?
>Most of the royalty money a mangaka makes comes from volume sales, most of the time they don't make shit from an anime adaptation
I know, but its the anime that generates those sales, and the Japanese royalty schemes are pretty shit. Without an anime to promote the book most books struggle to sell enough to keep the mangaka in house and home. They didn't even get royalties from overseas sales until very recently and its still a fraction of domestic royalties.

>>144315803
>and the Japanese royalty schemes are pretty shit.
They're actually pretty good compared to American stuff, usually they retain ownership of the property and tend to have far more influence over adaptations and royalty payments on publisher sales. It's why whenever you see the copyright on an anime it'll usually list both the publisher and the author(s) of the original work.
>They didn't even get royalties from overseas sales until very recently
Ironically that was because overseas publishers were owned and operated by non-Japanese companies. Nowadays they make more money from overseas sales because more and more Japanese publishers are foregoing the old system of contracting some western publisher to translate their manga and are just opening global branches of their own that they have complete ownership over, cutting out at least one of the middlemen.

>>144313047
>Maus
>Released one comic forty years ago
>DC
>Released 50 comics just last year
Are you aware of a blip is? Just because a singular comic becomes famous doesn't mean that it's not surrounded by an ocean of capeshit. Sure, that one comic has staying power. It's still just one comic. It's not like all these other genres are putting out comics at nearly the same rate as the big 2. Hence why they're CALLED the Big 2!

>>144315893
>They're actually pretty good compared to American stuff,
they really aren't, unless by 'American stuff' you only mean Marvel.

>usually they retain ownership of the property and tend to have far more influence over adaptations and royalty payments on publisher sales
this is very standard in the west, though you're exaggerating the 'influence' mangaka have over adaptations.

again when you're saying 'American' it really sounds like you're saying 'Marvel'. (ten years ago I'd have lumped DC in there but since the Siegel and Shuster case their royalty and copyright deals have improved by a lot.)

American comics died because they're fucking boring.
It's that simple.
They don't provide me with anything I can't get from basic bitch network television, so why would I bother with them?

>>144315255
Ok but why is traditional animation still going strong in Japan then? I think if anything it's the attitude that traditional animation was rendered obsolete by technology that killed it, not the technological advancement itself.

If people appreciated animation for the artform it is instead of seeing as a fundamentally imperfect medium, it would still be alive in the West. The decline isn't the result of either technology or conspiracy, but Western cultural myopia and philistinism.

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>>144309690
I think it's more comics aimed at teens are largely boring and also don't feature enough dynamic action scenes.

>>144316206
>Ok but why is traditional animation still going strong in Japan then?
because they figured out ways to cut corners the west was unwilling to try because of cultural stigma.

>>144316815
also western animation didn't die, it existed segregated from everything until the mid 90s when it had one last "push" for relevance industry wide (WB revival, disney revival, etc) then shrunk down hard.

Could a novel-comic-animation synergy like in Japan saved it? possibly. But they never saw cartoon adaptations as anything more than merch advertizing.

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>>144315219
>Japan (and China) are willing to listen and improve

>>144315109
Your forgetting that the anime itself doesn't make any money. Like all TV shows, they get their dough from ads, syndication, merch, home video and licensing to services like Netflix. Ratings/views do not indicate dollars earned, but popularity. If ratings/views are low, then it means the IP isn't profitable and it gets cancelled.

>>144316909
>There's so much competition that every creator is in an arms race to differentiate themselves while not alienating the fans of the genre
>This is somehow a bad thing

>>144316909
Idiots like this are willing to die on the hill of
>Comic books are less derivative and more original than anime and manga, nerd
when everyone knows nobody reads comic books anymore. Like, somehow, someway, he thinks he can gaslight the world into thinking that anime and manga are somehow less creative and interesting than cape comics.

>>144300974
Amine is cool