how long are we going to be stuck with this shitty mutant retcon? i just want kamala to go back to having fun adventures in jersey city instead of being cannon fodder for the next mutie genocide. fuck mutants. fuck the x-men.
>>144602196until the mcu retcons it probably
>>144602196Too late anon.Dr Nitika Gaiha reanimated Kamala's original corpse and had it run amock around New Jersey.MS Marvel's rep in NJ is ruined now, so she has to stay around her mutant companions in Manhattan.
>>144602196OkSee you in the storytime thread on Wednesday
>>144602196She did the same thing to Gwenpool first.Turn about is fair play.
her death was literal in the real world. It's all anybody talked about for six months and it killed any hype for her new comics or for future MCU projects. She's been sidelined until things cool off but I don't think they ever will. Whatever they do, everyone will just bring up what they did.
people should post cute fanart of kamala
>>144602196What's the marvel word for superheroes who aren't mutants, inhumans, eternals? Like the thing Spider-man and Hulk are. Kamala should just be that.
>>144603077mutate
>>144602196Until they bring back the GLORIOUS INHUMAN MASTER RACE.
>>144603077>>144603560They're not reversing it. They had the chance in the two minis and they doubled down on driving her deeper into the mutant ghetto. It's over.
>>144603046
Even mutants are unhappy
>>144602196I'm just gonna make my own Kamala Komics because there's no way it can't NOT be better than the official shit. I was pretty psyched when Iman was signed on as a writer until I realize they gave her instructions on what to do and she had to work from there.We Want Nakia
>>144603752Iman had zero power over the direction of the minis. It was all orchis shit and Krakoa shit and all they managed to get in were so passive-agressive snipes at it. But they still had to go through with it and drag Kamala even deeper into the mud. HATED AND FEARED
>>144602196>how long are we going to be stuckforever, it's never going to be changed back
>>144602196also, I forgot to call you a nigger, nigger
>>144602196Kamala's early comics were some of the last Marvel comics that actually had any real cultural impact. Almost anything published these days doesn't matter at all.
>>144603736 You mean one crazy mutant who's supposed to be a bad guys unhappy supposed to speak for all of them?
>>144604260Because it was basically not a Marvel comic. It wanted really bad to be something like Saga, a self-contained narrative. And that's what got all the press and attention. And then Marvel started dragging her into generic superhero shit and it destroyed her.
>>144604507I want to make 'Mala my tickle torture slave
>>144603736>You are not a real mutantCould be an interesting angle, how like people with one black parent and one white parent run into weird issues b cause they aren't black/white enough for their respective groups
>>144603736>>144605133Odds are it's an emergency exit plan to retcon Kamala's origin once more should Marvel get absolutely desperate. Personally, I'm all for them just saying she's some kind of cosmic entity that nobody can truly identify as human, mutant, Inhuman, or anything else.
Soon.
>>144605303Isn't that more or less what MCU America Chavez is?
>>144603752The Nakia we know and love got lobotomized by the mutants and has been reduced to just another rabid mutant-hater.
>>144603752>I'm just gonna make my own Kamala KomicsCan we make a Klub?
>>144602196Kamala has zero good comics and all of her fans are retarded
>>144602464What was the deal with all that? I don't read the comics anymore but even I saw people posting pages around the net. Did she actually die as suddenly and abruptly, not even in her own comic, as it seemed? And how did they decide she was a mutant now? (I'm guessing because the X-Men like her they used the whole Krakoa clone-pod things and as a side effect she came out Mutant and not Inhuman?)H-How is her family doing? The MCU show kind of made me care about them and her a little bit. Weird how the MCU shows keep doing that for me. Even when shit I still like the MCU takes on characters better. MCU Kate Bishop for example, my God, she's so much better and not just because she's played by a hot and perky actress.
>>144607023 she got killed in Spider-Man's Peter Parker's comic to become a mutant for MCU synergy outside of universe.We saw coming a mile away and they announced he was coming back in like less than a wee. In Universe Cyclops is probably the main reason why she came back alive so fast because of Champions. Shes technically still a inhuman along with being genetically mutant now,. Her superpowers does stretchy one still comes from herI Inhuman DNA and not her new mutant DNA.
>>144607848
>>144607861
>>144607848But they also fucked her entire appeal in the ass by making the public (including her friends and family) hate and fear her, so she's basically a big nothing of a character now. She can never go back to being the plucky Avengers fangirl and local hero, and without those qualities, what is she? A stretchy fourth-stringer X-Person to fill out a cast.
>>144602196>how long are we going to be stuck with this shitty mutant retcon?I suppose they'll reboot the character to match the MCU fat muslima, as for the Superhero fangirl, they'll make a new one eventually, she is not the first one, the next one will be most likely a tranny.
>>144602196This is what happens when a character gets sucked into the mutant orbit, they get turned into a prop or plot device and wasted. Kamala will end up like Firestar.
>>144608220>Kamala will end up like Firestar.Getting more appearances and plot relevance than she ever did a as a "New Warrior" you mean? Oh how awful, a character actually getting used.
>>144605337And the crowd goes wild… "aaaaaaah aaaaaaah"
>>144602196It really seems like becoming a mutant has a inverse relationship with popularity. Squirrel Girl reached her peak popularity after she was discovered to have nothing to do with the X gene at birth. Scarlet Witch has never been more popular either. Kamala got revealed as a mutant in the end of her own show and the movie that came right after was the biggest MCU flop ever. This is either excellent meta commentary on how being a mutant feels like in Marvel or that being a mutant who associates with it any more then a backstory is hazardous due to all the baggage that comes with it.
>>144603046Look at that adorkable smile!
>>144607845> Absolutely halaal> Absolutely wholesomeAlso strangely hot?
>>144608621Does BWC stand for Bruno's Wife and Companion
>>144608641Nah, there's only one dude Kamala deserves to be shipped with.
>>144608618>Squirrel Girl reached her peak popularity after she was discovered to have nothing to do with the X gene at birth.Her series was successful because they were written with a specific audience in mind and was able to thrive thanks to Scholastic funds. The retcon was only done to parody the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver retcon and because no one cares about her being a mutant or not, because it's Squirrel Girl (unless you care too much about the fact that the Great Lake X-Men joke doesn't work anymore).>Scarlet Witch has never been more popular either.That's because of the MCU, not because she's not a mutant anymore.
>>144604507Uncensored where?
What are brown arabic girls like Kamala for?
>>144608621>tumblr artstyleEven the lefties want her to be dicked down by white people.
>>144608655who?
>>144602196This but in reverse. Fuck Kamala. She deserves the Inhumans.
>>144602196She's gone anon. Just accept it.
>>144607889Why do her family hate her? Or is their relationship different from the MCU? In the MCU it feels like she could do or be pretty much anything and they would support her or at least stand by her.
>>144609053They're fine with Kamala, but they HATE Ms. Marvel for being a mutant, same as everybody else in Jersey City. Emma Frost mind-wiped everybody who knew her true identity (except Bruno and Red Dagger) when she "died", so now she doesn't even have her friend circle anymore.
>>144609053They hate Ms Marvel. So her whole status quo is fucked and her confidantes have been mindwiped to also hate Ms marvel
>>144605664Nobody gives a fuck about Chavez because DS2 was mostly a shitter. Even if it succeeded only YA fans would care.
>great street-level character>gets dragged into stupid Inhuman shit all the time>now gets dragged into stupid mutie shitJust let her do comfy street-level stuff, jesus christ. Do writers not understand the point of the character? Nobody wants to see Ms. Marvel involved in the latest global crisis or mutie-vs-government rampage or whatever the fuck.
>>144602196how long are we going to be stuck with this shitty diversity shoein? i just want kamala to go back to the middle east.
>>144609090>>144609100Huh. That does suck, I can see why people are annoyed. I hate what's happened to the MCU, and how some of the characters have been interpreted, but in a lot of ways I really like having a Marvel setting where the bullshit is only occasional rather than constant and rapid-fire.
>>144609199She can't do street level stuff anymore. She got outed as a mutant and can't even show up in costume in Jersey anymore, which is why she'll be exclusively working in the NYX section of New York.
>>144609090Sound like Mutant being dick ass for no reason
>>144608727Josh Richardson
>>144609207It's so fucking annoying that writers don't seem to understand that the entire reason she was so popular was because she hit the scrappy, Spider-Manesque street level feel perfectly. The TV show fucked this up too. People want to see her save her neighborhood, not the world. The character would have been so much better off if she was a stand-alone hero without any stupid fucking genetic tie-in to bigger teams.
>>144609239All they had to do was rip off Static Shock (Terrigen Bomb = Big Bang) and it would have worked well enough.
>>144609239I guess I should say editorial, not writers, to be fair. The writers probably hate this shit too.
>>144607889This shit pisses me off so much, man. Does everybody need to be a fucking mutie?
>>144602196forever
>>144609239It's weird because the first Ms Marvel run was obviously created to be a loose-continuity self-contained comic like the Image stuff that was very big at the time (like Saga). Something that any casual could just pick up and read without knowing jack shit about the X-Men or the Marvel Universe or events or whatever. The first sign they were going to fuck it up was IIRC when her series got a Secret Wars tie-in and basically skipped a few months for the event which annoyed the people who didn't want to see Kamala become just another generic title. And it seems after that the floodgates opened since they put her on the Avengers (then the Champions), had her cameo everywhere and got her into all that Inhuman push garbage. All that shit diluted her concept. There's a reason Spidey managed to stay popular as a solo character and that was that he wasn't constantly on a super-team.
>>144602196>how long are we going to be stuck with this shitty mutant retcon?probably forever but who gives a shit really. As long as they keep her as slut gangbanged by mutant cocks with DP Triple Penetration I will remain happy.https://img2.rule34.us/images/82/24/822487c8d83a6c50637cccd86b4afb58.jpeg
>>144609270It was done to synergize with the MCU but Marvel Comics claim Feige's office ordered them to kill her while Marvel Studios claim they only said to give her mutant powers. Whoever was behind it they effectively murdered the character in the public eye.
>>144602196I hate to break it to you, anon, but the mutant thing isn't what's keeping her from those halcyon Jersey City days. That era has passed. Marvel has killed it, they killed it long before the mutant thing, and they are too incompetent to realize that going back to it is a good idea. We are never getting that small time young superhero feel back.
>>144609355Exactly, that's what drives me crazy. It was great because it was basically doing its own thing. There were issues before Secret Wars (too much involvement with Inhuman stuff) but that was definitely the point where things went completely off the rails, since it took over the whole story. I hate events so much.
>>144609481That era and that Kamala died with the Final Incursion, and what we've had since is a slightly-askew replica.
>>144609202 Okay first off Kamala was born in America not the Middle East. Second off she's good enough get the majority of people here are complaining about them making bad choices with Kamala.
>>144609500 Actually when Hydra took over Jersey City it wasn't when they were taking over America she was a member's the in human Secret Warriors team during that event after getting separated from the champions Hydra just managed to fake win an election for a bit before people realize Hydra candidate was making stuff up.
>>144605337>Soon.What?
>>144609573Forgive me for being /pol/, but Biden dropped out and left Kamala Harris to run in his place.
If it's any consolation, when the eventual continuity purge happens, I am convinced Kamala is one of few legacy characters who will get reintroduced, since she is at least liked by some parts of the userbase.
>>144609239>>144602196 Honestly I want to see mutant bigotry not be so mainstream in Marvel 616 USA.I would like to see the idealistic Kamala try to do something to actually help the X-Men become more accepted of USA society and as USA Society.I want to see her BD idealist new youngster superhero instead of a overly cynical X-Men we got into current day. Also what comic book story arcs do we like to see from Kamala today?
>>144609618She's high-profile enough that she'll definitely continue to get sporadic series etc in the future.
>>144609500Metaplot and events are a mistake. Literally. They can short-term get some sales but long-term they just erode trust in your line. Nobody reading a minor character book wants to take 2 issues of it out to establishing a new shitty status quo that lasts for a year tops.
>>144609628I mean when they do the totally-not-reboot-but-it-is-a-reboot thing to get rid of all the shit that people hate.
>>144609628>>144609644How would the X-Men feel and behave after this hypothetical reboot compared to now ?
>>144609631It's for sure a big part of the reason why cape comics are an absolutely inaccessible dumpster fire now. Fucking nobody wants a good run to get interrupted by some stupid event shit where you have to read like 6 different books to track a coherent narrative with a character's current story arc.
>>144609657Same as they are now: hated and feared by all, so hateful and arrogant to all.
>>144609657Back to the 1991 status quo that I think most readers want but Marvel has been unwilling to give them.
>>144609674And it poisons the well. Marvel especially are so hell-bent on short-term gains that they would gladly bump the sales of an event book today if it means 5 books will drop in sales over the next few months. Because they stopped caring about reader trust, they're financed by Disney, they don't have to turn a profit or respect anybody. Here's some more MCU synergy bro, here's some shit about vampires. Oh you liked Miles Morales? Well he's gonna be a vampire in his own title for a few months now, hope you enjoy.
>>144602196Until Disney's Xmen movies start flopping, which could be anywhere from 3 to 10 years.
>>144609625
>>144609928EMMA ISN'T FRENCH
>>144609971>costume is quite literally Frances wartime flags colour >not frenchWhat other silly things will we come up with next? Kurt isnt German. Colossus isnt Russian. Logan isnt red blooded american.
>>144610008>Logan isnt red blooded american.The sound effect is USnikt for a reason
>>144610008>>144610029Isn't Wolverine along with Deadpool both Canadian because one Marvel didn't expect them to be a big deal when they were made and two if someone's supposed to be a psychopath or crazy murderer person they're more likely to be made Canadian than American in X-Men comics ?
It's a good retcon, because it helps simplify the schizo lore of the Marvel universe.There's too much shit; too much "ifs ands and buts". Get rid of the Inhumans too. The only people who should have superpowers should be mutants, people who got mutated, and people not of this earth. None of thos "well actually she's descended from a secret society of half aliens but then got infected by a nebula's seed pod that was sent by the god of death but that was neutralized when she transformed into a ghost by a master wizard from a different planet who blended her together with a version of herself from an alternate timeline which then-!". It's stupid, it's obtuse, and it's annoying to remember.Simplicity and brevity is an aspect of writing that marvel cannot into and has always been one of the things that held it back. I blame editorial deadlines and need for reinvention.
>>144610044Yeah, both are Canadian, but I think in recent years writers have written Logan to identify more as American.Which, to be fair, first time you see him in Claremont X-Men he's at a Quebec military base which you could read as him being Quebecois, so who wouldn't want to be anything other than Quebecois?
>>144610309You must HATE the current symbiote lore.
>>144609239The TV show was basically speed running her towards being in The Marvels and then a Young Avenger. Basically none of the MCU heroes except Spidey, Daredevil, Jessica, Frank, and soon maybe Deadpool do anything remotely street level. Kate was introduced at street level, but I expect she'll be stuck doing Avengers only stuff each time we see her, which is looking like twice a decade given she hasn't been in anything outside a cameo since her show.
>>144610362Is she still a bimbo rich girl in the MCU?
>>144610362Is that Mini video of sexual assault in progress?
>>144610382Kinda? She lives in a peacefully but slightly firebombed apartment but her mom is in jail and presumably all her assets were frozen and her wealth seized because she was a Kingpin stooge. Fuck knows where that leaves Kate since she was still a year off finishing university.>>144610384There is a reason writing Kate and Yelena fucking or down to fuck makes up the majority of fanfiction involving either of them. That, and the show was really unsubtly horny with Kate. Her suit has really tight pants. And then there was this scene.
>>144610324Who doesn't?
>>144610382Oh, missed the bimbo part. She's actually pretty likable, perky and optimistic, and not a girl-boss. She fucks up constantly through the entire show, is outclassed by Clint and Yelena, and makes up for it with heart and being about as good a shot as he is but with none of the spy skills. I think it's mostly Hailee that makes me like her, though. She's my favourite legacy character by far and I'm slightly irritated they gave Kamala a movie role first.The show already gives Clint some respect.
>>144610507On the other hand, now that Kamala has flopped they have learned what not to do so we can get the Kate sweep
>>144610538She'll likely be the oldest 'young' Avenger, so hopefully she gets team lead by default, and they don't give it to Kamala just because she's Ms Marvel and the 'founded'.
>>144602196give it 5 minutes
>>144602196How do you tell the difference between a mutant and any other metahuman? Don't be retarded.
>>144613781 Apparently if you have open mutations they can just magically tell I remember in an expense story where some mutants had a problem with them Inhuman who showed up to dazzler's concert.Also one guy said when he had open mutation I was bit by an elephant I'm not a mutant please save me.
>>144613781The MIND CONTROLLING SENTIENT BACTERIA tells you.
>>144603752I'm rooting for you then Anon.>>144603828I don't why they even had her as a writer besides Brand Synergy and a desperate ploy at good sales.>>144604501It should have stayed self-contained then.>>144605303Same here, I don't care if its just MCU America Chavez.>>144607889She lost any kind of appeal as a character at this point.>>144609203>>Huh. That does suck, I can see why people are annoyed. I hate what's happened to the MCU, and how some of the characters have been interpreted, but in a lot of ways I really like having a Marvel setting where the bullshit is only occasional rather than constant and rapid-fire.People have every right to be annoyed. I hate what happened to the MCU and how some of it's characters have been interpreted as well. I like that Marvel setting too. >>144609248Oh I have no doubt they loathe it just as much as we do.>>144609355Being a self-contained Comic is probably a huge reason why the first run sold so well. Honestly it should have been it's own earth.>>144609481Which is just one reason why Marvel should cease publishing comic books.>>144609625Mutant Bigotry being as mainstream as it is in Marvel 616 USA just comes off very much like narm. I would enjoy seeing Kamala doing something to help the X-Men as well. Maybe by building a group of younger idealist heroes to Juxtapose the X-Men's Cynicism. Maybe Tony Stark could fund that group and have them be a division of the Avengers. Or they could be the next incarnation of the Avenger's Unity Division.>>144609631I don't mind metaplots overall, but Events are definitely a mistake, well actually how constant they are in cape comics. Events should be special occasions.>>144609618The 616 Continuity needs to be completely purged, get rid of the floating timeline that's been around since 1961. A 100% clean state would be the best for Marvel.>>144609777What was the 1991 status quo? It's been awhile since I read those books.
>>144609800Shit like this is why the only comics I buy are either back-issues, TV/Movie/Video Game Tie-Ins/Continuations What If's/Elseworlds, some Graphic Novels. With the occasional comedic book and mini-series. >>144610507She's an actual character then. It's nice to have a MCU Legacy character that's not a copy and paste or insufferable.>>144610554I hope she's the leader as well. >>144613875Yeah that character needs to be disposed of.
>>144614051>The 616 Continuity needs to be completely purged, get rid of the floating timeline that's been around since 1961. A 100% clean state would be the best for Marvel.I always say "reboot" in air quotes because they would never do a full clean slate reboot. Look at the current Ultimates line, it still uses the same basic beats for most of the characters except for Ultimate X-Men which goes off in a wild direction and which /co/ absolutely fucking hates for it.if they ever do reset the main publishing line they'll still have Spidey, Cap, Thor, Iron Man, the Avengers, the X-Men etc. Some ancillary characters may get cut but they're owned by Disney and Disney wants trademarks and brands so no way in hell they'd ever be allowed to do something radical like "new continuity with no Avengers" or "new continuity with no Cap"
>>144613781>How do you tell the difference between a mutant and any other metahuman? Don't be retarded.Sublime and the extinction gene were both offered up as explanations.
>>144602196Kamala just fits so much better as an Inhuman than a Mutant in general."Ms. Marvel", as a legacy, is very intricately tied to the Kree, who created the Inhumans. It's thematic that one of their number should be a new Ms. Marvel.Mutants have nothing to do with the Kree. They have nothing to do with Carol other than Rogue mind-raping her.
>>144614256 Wasn't Mystique Captain Marvel's original arch enemy?
>>144614270Yes, she was also originally an alien, not a mutant.
>>144605133>>144603736It's probably just going to be them shitting on her because her powers aren't activated. Just like how Wanda turning off mutants powers was equated to killing them. I'm sure it's going to go over great when someone "calls her out" for choosing to suppress her X-gene with terrigen despite the only other option being death.
>>144614214I'm not asking Marvel to do something that radical. A 100% reboot that uses the same basic beats is actually what I meant to say.
>>144614256I would have kept Kamala as an Inhuman simply because the legacy of Ms Marvel is intrinsic to the Kree who created the Inhumans. Making her a mutant takes that link away.
>>144614630Oh I get you, a "back to basics" kinda thing. Yeah, I would like to see that desu. The current canon is so riddled with retcons it's just a joke anyway.
>>144614958A joke without a punchline.
Blame Perlmutter for being a cheap salty old fuckknob
>>144608693>The retcon was only done to parody the Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver retconIt was played as a joke in-story, but IRL it was done to keep her as a lighthearted comedy character aimed at young audiences, and protect her from getting sucked into the X-books like has happened to Kamala now.
>>144613781>How do you tell the difference between a mutant and any other metahuman?By the way they can't stop telling everyone around them that they're a mutant, and by how they're probably wearing something with a big X on it.
>>144614214>except for Ultimate X-Men which goes off in a wild direction and which /co/ absolutely fucking hates for it.I've not read it, so I don't know how different it is to normal X-Men, but a lot of X-Men fandom are violently hostile to the very idea of doing anything different to the minority metaphor and the Xavier vs Magneto conflict, so if it's not doing one of those things I imagine people are seething, and losing their minds if it's not doing either of them AND selling well.
>>144615715It's a book written and drawn by a woman where the main characters are all students of a Japanese high school. So basically it's Armor and a few other Asian characters and some new ones like Maystorm. There's not much about a Xavier-Magneto thing either.
>>144602196I haven’t kept up with Kamala since the mutant retcon, does she still have stretchy powers? Or has she been synergized into having energy powers?
>>144615981She's still a shapeshifter, though there have been attempts to try and get her powers to synergize.
>>144614051>She lost any kind of appeal as a character at this point.Can't lose what she never had. :^)
>>144615981She can still stretch yes
>>144615906It's a unique take on the X-Men Universe. A refreshing take on the mythos and a much needed creative jolt.It plays out like and feels like a Manga in my opinion.
>>144616481Remember when her mom knew she was Ms. Marvel, only for aliens to mindwipe her the moment Wilson was off the book?
>>144616621I always thought it would be funnier if everyone knew who was was the entire time, considering her "disguise" is a small piece of cloth that covers no distinctive parts of her face
>>144616642That was the entire idea before Wilson left and the new writers thought to erase everything she did that was good and only do bad things from then on
>>144616452I agree, but X-Men fans are insane traditionalist and have trouble dealing with the loss of muh angst.
>>144616690Fun fact this page was used to justify retconning Carol's mom into a Kree admiral in the Stohl mini that made Carol half-Kree
>>144615994>>144616011So what is her mutant power then? I thought that the whole point of turning her into a mutant was going to be to change her powers to those she has in the mcu.
She’s going to be hot when she’s grown, and wearing Carol’s old costume.
>>144616742Energy constructs, same as the MCU, but Kamala refused to accept it.
>>144616481When did Kamala’s mom stop being a short dumpy old woman?
>>144616820That's not Kamala
>>144608727THE SHOCKER
>>144610008>Frances wartime flags colourHoly kek>>144610309They should just be called metahumans and merge Marvel with DC.
>>144602196i'm gonna send a pipe bomb to chris claremont's house to make him pay for turning the x-men characters popular and ruining marvel, im so serious
>>144616918When they got rid of Alphona.
>>144617021Claremont fought against Marvel ejaculating mutant shit all over and opposed most of the terrible decisions involved such as making mega event crossovers. He also never made mutant hate the norm. Don't fucking blame him for what 1990s Marvel (and especially the Morrison run) did
>>144610362<3 Hailee
>>144616695It's truly embarrassing how traditionalist X-Men are, how they don't want that mythos to progress. Contrast that with Spider-Man fans who are the exact opposite. >>144617405Making near universal Mutant Hate norm is not Claremont's fault it's the fault of the writers after him especially Morrison.
>>144616918I still think yusuf would make for a better hero.
>>144616918Has the artist really not done anything else since this run? Though one would be unsurprised that modern Big 2 comics could drive off a new artist. I feel like their style is so distinctive I would've seen something from them if they had.
>>144607889>She can never go back to being the plucky Avengers fangirl and local heroShe hasn't been that for a few years now. She was an avenger nigga
>>144602196How long are we gonna be stuck with this shitty character?
>>144619080She should become an Avenger again once she clears her name by exposing Nitika Gaiha have her bond with Storm.
>>144618092>It's truly embarrassing how traditionalist X-Men are, how they don't want that mythos to progress. Contrast that with Spider-Man fans who are the exact opposite.I love the "oppression and suffering are vital to the X-Men" mentality.
>>144619245forever
>>144619823Look, anon, you can have the extreme of everyone wants to genocide mutants and they're on the brink of extinction and the HAVE to keep killing anyone who even vaguely dislikes them for the sake of survival OR you can have MUTANTS ARE WINNING where there's a gorillion of them, too many to ever genocide and they're obnoxiously smug and self-satisfied with their superior homo-ness as they wipe their asses across the face of the Marvel Universe, and they STILL have to kill anyone who even vaguely dislikes them because it's a matter of life and death, isn't it?Those are your options. You can't just go back to normal X-Men stories like they had in the 70s, 80s or 90s because nobody working on the books don't want to and the most vocal fans don't want to, and people keep reading the books in enough numbers that the message Marvel learned is "keep doing what you're doing".You can't save X-Men while X-Men fandom exists.
>>144620588Claremont was right.People can mock him all they want for wordiness and fetishes and whatever the fuck but he got it, and later writers did not get it.
>>144620695To be fair, as much as X-Men fans bitch and cry about those books, editorial and the writers they were hiring for close to ten years after the first time Claremont left all either got it, or understood not to mess with a formula that was working. Things fall apart in the 2000s when Marvel first started letting people make radical changes in the direction of the franchise.
>>144620980They fell apart after Morrison's completely botched run which massacred most of the core pillars of the X-Men and portrayed them as a cold, sterile team of activists engaged in a literal war over extinction. People still fellate that run to this day for some unknown reason even though literally every character acts totally OOC in it.
>>144620996 Morrison remade the X-Men for the 21st century and injected them with a sense of modern realism they desperately needed. I love that run so much.As a millennial from New York I always equated the destruction of Genosha with 9/11 and I thought it was really cool how the X-Men 97 guys did the same thing.
>>144620980True the first 10 years post-claremont had that going for them, not surprising that was when the Books sold the best they've ever had. The 2000s are when things fell off a cliff.>>144621451He did but he also destroyed the Racisim allegory. By showing how horrible mutations can truly be and that Mutants Cures/Power Nulifiers should exist in some capacity. I think X-Men 97 portrayed the destruction of Genosha much better than the source material did.
>>144622041Honestly the whole main selling point of Morrison's X-Men, treating mutants as if they were a real minority group, was the breaking point, the point where the heroes of the book just suddenly accept all of the mutant villains' rhetoric was right all along, and start acting like they're separate from humanity, and in a lot of cases, above human rules and laws. They've never come back from this, Hickman and the other modern writers took it to even worse extremes. But this REALLY resonates with the types of self-inserting readers who are really into the mutant metaphor stuff, they don't care how much it's hurting the books or the characters because they feel validated by it, like the writer totally gets them, even though the writer is probably still a middle-aged middle-class straight white guy most of the time, writing about things he read about in the news.
>>144602196well going by this >>144603736And the forced mutant culture shit NYX is doing they are doubling down on having her be a mutant but without doing the MCU powers. Which is pretty funny because X-gene a lone was never enough before. That's why they bitch so much about the cure and Wanda turning off their powers. Before now it was always about the powers. Still it's funny that the shit bombed so hard that they had to do pic related and seal way her mutant shit.
>>144616481Kamala’s mom could get it.
>>144622359yep they wrote out the powers
>>144622276Morrison's X-Men was the point of no return for the 616 X-Men. And short of a 100% Reboot that uses the same basic beats, they'll never come back from the damage that's been done for the last 23 years. >>But this REALLY resonates with the types of self-inserting readers who are really into the mutant metaphor stuff, they don't care how much it's hurting the books or the characters because they feel validated by it, like the writer totally gets them, even though the writer is probably still a middle-aged middle-class straight white guy most of the time, writing about things he read about in the newsAnd it's a shame Marvel Editoral doesn't have the guts to get rid of the dead weight those readers bring no matter how much it hurts the books, characters and overall mythos. >>144622359Which is a very big mistake. And I'm glad that it bombed so hard. Sadly Marvel likely won't get why it bombed.
>>144622422Smart move, now have hear clear her name by exposing the doctor who used her corpse to wreck havoc. Then have her return to the Avengers.
>>144622422For now, but I'm sure they'll try again soon enough. Marvel's always had it in for Kamala being a shapeshifter, because apparently only supervillains are allowed to have such a power.
>>144622666Nope, she's a mutant now. She is forever doomed to be feared and hated by all no matter what she may try to do to prove otherwise.
>>144622276Morrison's run was absolutely the breaking point for the X-Men both as a "hero" team and as an allegory. The allegory is utterly fucking ruined by Morrison stating categorically that mutants will genocide humans whatever way the Xavier-Magneto thing goes, so there's no struggle for coexistence. It's just a matter that Magneto wants to accelerate the process. The fucking run opens up with Cassandra Nova showing the Trask kid the extermination of the last Neanderthals in a long-ass discussion about evolution and that viewpoint is never challenged by any of the heroes. In fact the extinction gene thing that gets introduced later only enforces this idea. And in this context the X-Men can't be heroes. There's nothing heroic about being the harbingers for genocide and knowing that your "enemies" are right. The allegory is destroyed because despite what people have claimed repeatedly, minority groups in the real world aren't engaged in a world-wide scheme to extinguish the rest of the human race. That whole replacement thing that Morrison bolts down as the basic fundament of Marvel mutants is so fucking toxic and the root cause of all of the mutant genocide stuff and all the garbage we've had.Krakoa would never have happened without it because Krakoa is a last-ditch desperation move, Hickman's response to the Morrison dogma. And Hickman of course agrees.And the thing that gets me about it is none of that shit about extinction is true. Morrison's "science" is some 1800s bullshit he got from pop culture. He threw away the idea of coexistence and doomed the X-Men to tell a shitty sci-fi story from the 1960s, which I guess tracks with him loving the pre-Claremont X-Men and hating everything since.
Since the MCU is going into mutant mode now it'll be very precarious to see where that goes because they will demand the comics follow suit. And no From the Ashes isn't it, FTA is just a generic placeholder status quo until Marvel Studios figure their shit out. If the MCU decides to go with noblebright X-men it'll be really fucking weird when they try to walk back to that in 616 because we've been in the gutter for 25 years. If they go with doomer X-Men the movies are probably dead because that shit would neveer fly with normies.Interesting fucking times
>>144622681Well if Marvel Editoral had any brains they'd do >>144622666>>144622710>>That whole replacement thing that Morrison bolts down as the basic fundament of Marvel mutants is so fucking toxic and the root cause of all of the mutant genocide stuff and all the garbage we've had.Couldn't have it better myself.>>And the thing that gets me about it is none of that shit about extinction is true. Morrison's "science" is some 1800s bullshit he got from pop culture. He threw away the idea of coexistence and doomed the X-Men to tell a shitty sci-fi story from the 1960s, which I guess tracks with him loving the pre-Claremont X-Men and hating everything since.And writers after him have continued with that doomed story.>>144623079Having the MCU X-Men be the noblebright X-Men would be really jarring because what happend over the last 20+ years in earth 616. What happened there cannot be walked back, it just can't. It needs to be completely erased. If they are the doomer X-Men, it's not gonna fly for more than a few movies.These are indeed interesting times.
>>144623365>Having the MCU X-Men be the noblebright X-Men would be really jarring because what happend over the last 20+ years in earth 616. What happened there cannot be walked back, it just can't. It needs to be completely erased. If they are the doomer X-Men, it's not gonna fly for more than a few movies.The thing is, X-Men 97 showed everyone that there's a huge amount of interest in noblebright X-Men still. That people still want to see the X-Men rise up AGAINST tragedy like the Genosha event and fight back and be cool instead of becoming bitter, cynical and isolationist like in 616. And people FUCKING LOVED THAT. They loved seeing the X-Men BTFO bad guys, they loved seeing Cyclops be a cool, nice dude. Even the Magneto redemption works here because this version isn't constantly spouting genocidal garbage while pretending to be a hero, which tracks with them putting him in the suit her had when he was headmaster in the 80s. So the audience is out there and I would bet the people who want to see this are many times more numerous than the small, desperate 616 fanbase who are so mired in their misery porn they now see any mutant having a normal life as betrayal and racism from the creators.If Disney had any sense they'd pay attention but given how suits are I bet they'll learn the wrong lesson.
>>144616010 Honestly the fact get so many people here did complain so much about how they did kill her to make her an X-Men without mocking her and the fact that non-politically motivated thread have people relatively having a civil discussion about how the comic industry could have done better: at least constructive conversation by four chance standards” and people have numerous fan art and images clipped of her I say she's relatively popular here enough that she had an appeal to begin with.
>>144623365>And writers after him have continued with that doomed story.Because so many writers and editors and Marvel are cynical and world-weary.
>>144623946 I like the X-Men in Spider-Man RYV universe.
>this thread still alive
>>144614317she wasn't originally an alien, that's your head-canon
>>144614660yeah, but nobody cares about inhumans
>>144616695>>144618092jesus, what a cringe samefagalso> Spider-Man fans who are the exact opposite.LMAOOOO, wait, you're serious? EVEN BIGGER LMAO
>>144624026And in MC2 the mutant hate ended when the elder X-Men sacrificed themselves to save the world and Jubilee is the respected leader of the Avengers.
>>144623079IF X-Men 97 is any indication, then yeah, they will want X-Men to be selfless superheroes. comics are not a problem, because nobody cares about logic, and everything can be handwaved
>>144622710as much as I hate morrison, your post is like... 10 years too late for anyone to give a fuck, and frankly, if not morrison, someone else would do it.I liked krakoa, but I don't mind X-men being heroic again. The problem is that brevoort fucking sucks
>>144624156>Mayday learns her friend in school is a mutant and wants to stick up for her against the lynch mobs, but worries how doing so would make her as Spider-Girl look to the publicThe hate never left, not even in MC2. And last I checked, Jubilee only leads the current "X-People" and has no direct affiliation with the Avengers.
>>144624245Don't you think I know I'm screaming into the void, Anon? Marvel's comics side is fucked and has been fucked since Civil War. There's no going back. All we can do is dive deeper into the latrine pit.
>>144624104Claremont literally said he intended her to be an agent of the Supreme Intelligence when she was introduced. That's the mysterious "lord" giving her orders. He made her a mutant later when he had the idea to incorporate her into his X-men run
I think it would be interesting if Carol taught Kamala about masturbation
>>144623489That it did and i'm really glad it did. See Marvel/Disney, that's how the majority want to see the X-Men. They don't want misery porn and those who do want that are a vocal minority. >>If Disney had any sense they'd pay attention but given how suits are I bet they'll learn the wrong lesson.They probably will learn the wrong lesson, I really want to be proven wrong.>>144623864She was just look at well Mrs Marvel Vol 1 and her initial paperback trade sold.>>144623946Which I don't blame them for, but seriously enough with this doomer crap.>>144624026Same here, kinda surprised it didn't get it's own title.>>144624120They don't outside of her and Moon Girl.>>144624292True but it's not insanely massive. From what I recall.>>1446243122006 is when Marvel Comics died.
>>144625118>I really want to be proven wrong.I do too but I doubt it. Not this late in the game. it's been 20 years of X-Men being ground into the dirt and the people who are still there and buy the 616 comics are the ones who have fully bought into the fetishization of suffering. And the editors seem to be fully into it as well. Brevoort is a huge believer in outrage sells so he probably can't even grasp the idea of doing something optimistic that people love. Just look at From the Ashes, the most wishy-washy "Oh it's a new status quo" shit ever. No vision to it, and it's just a more doomer sequel to krakoa. They have no clue what they're doing.
>>144625118Kamala and moon girl sell worse than the Inhumans did
>>14462518520 long years. The fact that the Editors have also brought into the fetishzation of suffering hurts me more than the people who still buy the comics.I honestly don't know much about Brevoort but what I do know, I don't like one bit.I'm not even bothering with From The Ashes. You are spot on about them having no clue about what they're doing.
>>144625457>I honestly don't know much about Brevoort but what I do know, I don't like one bit.He started out as a young editor in the 1990s, just around the time before Quesada took over. He used to oversee various minor titles and apparently was quite easy to deal with and enthusiastic. But when Quesada pushed for the more edgy storytelling with Civil War to "ultimatize" 616 something happened with Brevoort as well because he took to the new philosophy super hard. Maybe he had grown cynical, who knows. But by the time Slott took over Spider-Man Brevoort was one of the biggest proponents for outrage marketing, to make storylines as shocking and insulting as possible to fans to make them "sit up and pay attention". Superior Spider-Man was obviously an example but other stuff like Avengers Arena's bloodbath, the Captain America is HYDRA thing and the annual superhero deaths were also part of that editorial mindset and Brevoort was 100% behind it. The stuff he said to upset the Krakoa reader base seems to be very typical of him. Make people angry, get them to read.
>>144625674So he used to be a decent guy, but Quesada sorta put on the path of being an asshole?On the one hand, I pity the guy for going from cool and enthusiastic to cyncial and nihilistic. On the other hand, fuck him for taking the Flavor Aid and becoming a total dickhead.
>>144625892The two options I see are either he had to become a company cocksucker because otherwise what was the option? Get fired or go work somewhere else? Comic book editors that don't write or draw aren't exactly a commodity these days. The other option is that he really became that cynical by seeing all the shit like disassembled, civil war, dark reign and all that basically trash the MU and how everyone was patting themselves on the back for it. And just gave up.
>>144625338That's pretty funny, all things considered.
>>144602196Send her to live at México.I am not kidding.
>>144625990Don't make excuses for Brevoort, he was always an asshole, he was always trying to make fans angry and do things he knew people would hate. He just started small and worked his way up to bigger stuff like you noticed more or cared about more.
>>144626117Huh. I guess the people who say he used to be nice to work with but got worse didn't know him that well.
>>144624026>>144624156>>144624292Go on?
>>144602196i wish new jersey was real
>>144627195See >>144627942
>>144602196I honestly hate that the Xmen are in the Marvel universe. They just don't fit at all. Like, you want me to believe the whole world hates mutants so god damn much that every city across the Earth acts just like how the deep south did in America in the 30s? No, I just don't believe it. It doesn't fit, and it's not present anywhere except Xmen media specifically. You don't see mutant and anti-mutant sentiment in Cap media, or Spidey, or Ironman, or Hulk, or Thor, or anywhere else but Xmen, but I'm expected to believe this shit is still present. It just doesn't work.
>>144603736What's the name of the character on the right?
>>144628058 Look at the 3 panel in this image. >>144623864 Kamala's older brother. is like there may be some mutants but whatever it's the point is the super people being discriminated against because superpowers .
>>144623864"They look like liberals!" line still gets a chuckle out of me.
>>144620980I mean guys like Lobdell and Niceseza were all generally pretty competent at keeping the book afloat.
>>144628233None of those guys changed the status quo from the Claremont/Lee stuff tho.
>>144628123>>144623864I don't get it. Why do they love liberal to him?
>>144605303Kamala identifies as a coconut, thank you.
>>144626350That they did not.>>144628058I can believe certain parts of the world hate mutants and act just like the deep south did in the 1930s. But I can't buy the whole world hating them like they do, I can certainly buy them being divisive, but not universally despised like they tend to be depictied in the X-Books.>>144628100Super people being discriminated makes sense, but world wide hatred of them doesn't. >>144628264Which was a good thing.
>>144628599 She identifies as an American Muslim Pakistani Inhuman New Jersey mutant female and most of all superhero. you should never identify as only one thing there are many things to identify yourself as. See >>144609625 The image on previously posted not what I said.
>>144628586Because they're all young and colored and in handcuffs.
>>144628634>Which was a good thing.As I said, we have literal proof in the form of people paying real money to see the 90s status quo X-Men doing the simple hero thing. Comic book creators and editors can turn up their noses all they want at it as they peddle their gross misery porn but we can see what's profitable.Fuck I'll do one better. We know what versions of the X-Men people in general identify with and want because of merch sales. Literally everybody is crazy over the Jim Lee and 80s run X-Men Marvel Legends. Even ones from slightly later like the Cable that appeared in MvC are basically the chase figures of their waves. They did ONE Krakoa wave that was ONLY the major characters (Chuck, Mags, Logan, Cyke, Jean and Moira) and it sold so poorly that Hasbro dropped the idea of doing a second wave altogether. And that was back before Hickman left when Krakoa was still selling well for a comic.
>>144628646I mean, conflicting identities and goals are the core of her character.That much isn't new.And there absolutely have been hints that both she and her brother have some kind of complication to the whole Terrigenesis.Kamala being a weird hybrid is really not an issue in my eyes. The problem is that Mutants are hated and persecuted to such ridiculous ends and lengths that their conflict tinges everything and everyone they touch.Emma telling Kamala this in no uncertain terms.My hope for this whole affair is that we may end up with a harmonization of her identities, of her body, and of her politics.We have her at war with herself now, her identities incompatible and Inhumans/X-Men in conflict with each other and wider society.Getting the Inhumans and Mutants together could help us out a lot. If they could find a way to be less toxic to one another, they can probably work out how to keep Kamala's cells from fighting, too.And as a united front of super-powered societies they would hold significant power to stop the normies from antagonizing them all the time.
>>144628264>None of those guys changed the status quo from the Claremont/Lee stuff tho.Yeah, but that's kind of my point. They saw what was working and kept it going. They had some big events but it was all pretty in line with what the book was supposed to be. Way too many people these days think they need to reinvent the wheel but nobody just wants to make sure it drives well.
>>144629582No, yeah, I get you. Most writers today, even the GOOD writers, have been raised with the thought process drilled into them that they need to be the ones to do the Big Defining Story in their runs. They need to do TDKR they need to do Demon in a Bottle they need to do Death of Superman. Something big and bombastic and genre-breaking and iconic that gets reprinted and talked about endlessly. But nobody wants to actually write the "normal" compelling runs that made those big stories stand out. The triangle era for Superman is so good and Death and Return is one of the worst arcs of it, but it's the only one people remember because it shook the boat. Demon in a Bottle is only part of a really good Iron Man era which mostly focuses on him doing regular Iron Man stuff. But nobody wants to write that, especially not with the X-Men. You have to do the next big tragedy or the next big SHOCKING event. And because everyone tries to trump each other nothing stands out. Not many people would recommend any X-Men comic after Morrison as essential reading.
>>144602196The retcon isn’t going anywhere so you might as well get used to it. One of her creators had wanted her to be a mutant in the first place and the only reason she was Inhuman in the first place was because of Marvel’s desperate push of them to replace the X-Men. At least now she actually gets to be attached to an ongoing rather than getting the occasional mini and guest appearance in someone else’s book
>>144629657The thing is, a lot of these big famous stories weren't made to be anything more than just another story. Oh yes, I imagine Claremont was hoping that people would like Dark Phoenix and every writer wants their work to be remembered yes. But there was a very different method and attitude. Dark Phoenix was another story in a line of work for someone who's been on the book for ages. Now you get a writer assigned a title and his first order of business is to rock the boat so fast it completely capsizes. We've been in a era of so many status quo changes that there hasn't even been a status quo at all.
>>144630149I think the best analogy is if Dark Phoenix was done today (and they have tried many times) it would be considerably longer and be the final arc of that creative team, so they would leave it to the next creative team to pick up the pieces. And those people probably wouldn't care about the big overhaul because that wasn't their story, so they'd just shuffle it aside and move towards their own big status quo change. Rinse and repeat.
>>144630227If it was made today it would be a massive company wide event filled with countless tie ins and one shots.
>>144603046wish Kamala wore the classic swimsuit, i want to hump those caramel thighs
>>144628962>>As I said, we have literal proof in the form of people paying real money to see the 90s status quo X-Men doing the simple hero thing. Comic book creators and editors can turn up their noses all they want at it as they peddle their gross misery porn but we can see what's profitable.We alogside merchandisers can see that , but Creators/Editors either can't see that or refuse to accept that their Misery Porn doesn't have mass appeal.I'm looking to get some figures from the Jim Lee and 80s run Marvel Legends line. I actually didn't even know Hasbro did a Krakoa wave. I legitimately didn't. >>144629001>>My hope for this whole affair is that we may end up with a harmonization of her identities, of her body, and of her politics. I hope we do as well, but I doubt we will. Would like to be proven wrong though. >>144629657These writers need to learn they don't need to do reinvent the wheel, just make sure the vehicle drives well. They can do "normal" compelling runs that can lead to Big memorable stories.>>144629925Her being an Inhuman is a postive instance of Executive Meddling. >>144630227That's an excellent analogy.>>144630342Sadly it would.
>>144631555>but Creators/Editors either can't see that or refuse to accept that their Misery Porn doesn't have mass appeal.I think this is one of the biggest differences of today. Back in the late 90s marvel couldn't get rid of a character fast enough if the fans didn't like it. Now they're not only gonna triple down on their own bullshit but they will take the franchise to the grave with them doing it.
>>144631862Marvel needs to go back to their 90s Mindset of getting rid of characters if fans don't like them. They need to end their bullshit before it takes their biggest franchises down with them. Honestly if I were Disney I'd seriously consider shutting down Marvel Comics publishing. There books with some exceptions barely sell compared to Indie comics and Managa.
