Why did Batman kill Jason Todd? Why wouldn't he just let him kill Joker? Is Joker's life worth more than Robin's life to Batman?
>>145511987Thank God they retconned this in the movie cuz that is retarded. Even by comic standards that's just dumb
>>145511987The point DC is trying to make is that vigilante murder is bad.
>>145511987Judd Winnick already came out and said the comic is shit and the animated movie is the more canon vision. Move on.
>>145512310> vigilante murder is bad so Batman should murder JasonHow did superhero comics get this dumb
>>145511987Thank god The Joker is safe
>>145512310>vigilante murder bad>murdering your adopted son to save the worst mass murderer in the city's history good
>>145512491When anons like you got dumber
>>145512517>let a murderer murder>or save someone from being murderedHmm hard choice. Also Bruce never considered Jason his son, it was onesided because Jason has daddy issues and Battle for the Cowl was gonna imply Jason was gay for Bruce
>>145512601>someone>mass murderer who will always keep murdering more people >or person who wants to kill that murderer to finally stop himremember that time batman almost murdered a random cop because he shot joker in self defense, yeah that was a weird issue
>>145512601>t. Harley Quinn
>>145512668Then put the murderer in prison, murdering him makes you literally the same as what he’s been doing
>>145512601>or save someone from being murderedby murdering someone, see the problem yet retard and how come he kill Jason to stop a murder but not the Joker, well smart guy.
>>145512715>if you kill the person who has murdered 100000 people you're just as heckin bad as him! no
>>145512601so just to be clear, you're saying that if a murderer is about to kill someone, it's justifiable to kill the murderer? huh. that situation feels really familiar...
>>145512668BATFAGS BTFO
>>145512731Because Jason forced him to, there was no other way he had to either kill the innocent victim who was tied up with a gun to his head or the crazy lunatic about to shoot somebody in 5 seconds
>>145512732Yes. You are committing the exact same action they did just because you want them dead. Same shit he did
>>145512775>Because Jason forced him toYeah because the Joker's never put him in this position, you have got to be a troll
>>145512790>if you kill jimmy the rapsit cannibal who raped, murdered and ate 10000 people, and is happy about it, and brags that he will never stop doing it then you're just as bad as him!
>>145512798Batman always finds a third way. Jason forced him with no way out, so Jason got what he wanted. It is Jason’s fault for doing that to himself, not Bruce’s.
>>145512821>t.murderer who thinks he can do whatever he wantsYou belong in a jail
>>145512873so batman belongs in jail for murder
>>145512899No because Batman was acting in self defence of another
>>145512928>murders someone murder is murder batman has to die
>>145512951Self defence is a defence to murder under lawJason is a murderer, not Batman, and Jason forced Batman to do it because Jason is insane and retarded and evil
>>145512866>Batman always finds a third way.Yet suddenly can't when it's Jason, hmm how convenient, you are a retard
>>145512969>its okay for batman to murder people!no batman needs to be sent to the chair for murdering people
>>145512976What else could he have done? That’s just how the plot works, Jason gave him no other option
>>145512989Defending a man from getting shot when you have no other option is not murder
>>145513004murder is murder batman must die for murdering people
>>145513004Defending a murderer from getting shot is called being an accomplice
>>145513057But what if it's a freak of nature like Jason who somehow manages to come back anyway?
The animated movie is an example of Batman taking “the third option”, which just makes the story weak and noncommittal because nothing changes for any of them and nothing is said, batman just cheated the discussion.Batman killing Jason is more poignant because it shows Jason actually got through to him and made him kill a future murderer, just not in a happy way. Jason broke Batman the way he wanted and was proven right. Batman was forced to do what he refused to before and suffers for hesitating all these years. Joker witnessed his killing of robin finally paying off in corrupting the two heroes.Sure the animated movie makes Batman seem nicer and less insane, but it doesn’t pay off the themes of the story. A lot of books have the protagonist suffer a bad fate because of his pathos.
>>145513173Truth be told, the story was never going to be good because we're expected to take Batman's side against a victim of child murder. Even Judd Winnick said that Batman was in the right.
>>145513287And then whatever open yet conclusive "it won't be resolved" ending Winick wanted with Jason's death and the explosion was just undone and left unexplained anyway, besides Prime punch implications and autist theories based off Morrison's fuckery that Jason is stuck as some undead cryptid and annoyance.
>>145513287I think he knew that saying Jason was right and that the whole story was just a “fuck you” to Batman would be a bad idea.
>>145513930Of all the people in DC who really need a kick in the pants, it’s definitely Batman and it needs to come from Jason.
>>145511987>murder is bad>so let's murder the guy trying to murder someone else for being a murderous shitI'm so glad this shit got retconned.
>>145514778Not just Batman, the whole Bat family needs a wake-up call, and that’s what Jason’s role is all about.
>>145512775>there was no other wayOr, Door No. 3>Alright, fuck this, I'm out. You two have fun.
>>145511987I wish Jason actually died here and cemented Batman's gay love for Joker.
>>145514778>no comic where the "family" comes together to give Bruce a Bat-beatdown>They decide to let Jason go at it
>>145515436Bats didn't want Jason and Joker to possibly outdo his own hate lust dynamic with the clown.
>>145511987Awful comic, awful movie.
>>145516113Jason is the only one who wants Bruce to change his method.
>>145512601i cant believe so many people took this retarded bait
>>145515436i like bruce timm batman for doing this often. hes hadline to kill no gun but he's not particularly judgmental either if he trusts your character >letting Terry avenge his father>telling superman he'd fuking frame luthor's death as an accident if he wanted
>>145517093*hardline no kill
>>145516997I liked the movie
>>145511987People ignore this was exactly what he wanted. He did nothing wrong here, the guy literally wanted him to shoot him in the face to stop him and even gave him a gun to do it with. It was either he gets to prove his point and kill the man who tortured him to death or he gets to prove his point and die so that man can live. Either way it was what he wanted. He was insane.
>>145517577He wanted to be cut down by someone he sees as father? The comic isn't good, but your excuses are even worse. Despite DC's intentions, Batman came off as psycho who needs to be thrown in jail.
>>145517824Just because he saw him as a father doesn’t mean he was a father to him. The dude was nuts. He didn’t see him as a son. Either way killing him wasn’t intentional but it is what he wanted.
>>145517856Oh, it's you. Should have known better.
>>145513169Like every other character? Death doesn't matter at DC unless it's plot relevant, making these threads and Batman's hang-ups more retarded than they already are.
>>145511987>Why wouldn't he just let him kill Joker?Why do you keep asking the same question over and over again when already know the answer?
>>145518333I wonder if we have bots here or mods trying to keep this board alive by making the same threads over and over again.
a good compromise is he will never kill the joker himself but he won't stop someone else from doing soit's kinda flawed that he doesn't want to go "down that route" when there are characters in the same universe who do kill and are far more normal than what batman is
>>145511987>Is Joker's life worth more than Robin's life to Batman?more than Robin's life? No, more than second Robin's life? Yes.And it's not me saying this, Batman says something similar to Superman in that Loeb's Superman and Batman. (Was it Loeb?)
:D
>>145518430The dilemma could easily be solved about this story if Winick put more focus on Batman prioritizing Jason and trying to save him from himself instead of pretending that there's a moral lesson to be learned here and that Batman can never be wrong. Jason is a victim and he has a very to demand his justice, but the way he end up by becoming criminal and believing that it's within his right to decide who live or die isn't justified or right. Batman has every right to upset about the way Jason end up, but he was written as such uncaring psycho in this story who is more foucesd on his "ideals" than helping the kid he basically doomed by bringing into the vigilante life. The story is flawed and ridiculous in so many ways and doesn't deserve this much discussion.
>>145512746
>>145518483DITF movie foucesd on this. They had Batman narrating the story about UTRH and it was made clear that his main focus is helping/saving Jason and bringing him home. The movie is just superior to the comic in every way.
>>145518483>The dilemma>let me get justice myself or kill me to save a serial killer and your moral code because Justice in Gotham is deficient and inexistantThere is no dilemna in Utrh. It's just a trolley problem for Batman and Batman only.
>>145511987>Why did Batman kill Jason Todd?A character so annoying DC killed him twice.
>>145518615It's supposed to be some kind of dilemma, but the end result was all about showing that Batman was in right while Jason in wrong. The story basically failed in doing that.
>>145512310>it's okay to be a vigilante and break the law>but you have to stay within the confines of the law in this one specific aspect, even when the police literally beg you not to save Joker's life on multiple occasions
>>145518693It's Judd Winick, what did you expect?
>>145512601By that retarded logic, Batman should kill Joker next time he's about to murder someone.
>>145512746Batman never said that.
>>145518483How exactly is Batman supposed to save Jason?
>>145512382If I remember right Winick was writing Jason as a villain for the comic, was really surprised people sympathised with him and so changed how some scenes are portrayed for the movie which is why that works better
>>145518964Kiss him
>>145519052I mean, like, seriously.
>>145519136Pretty easy since Jason isn't a lost cause. He could start first by asking him what happened? Where was he all these years? Why he didn't come to see him and Alfred? Show him that he is pretty happy to have him back and that he always wanted to have him. That his death almost destroyed him and changed him. That the Joker doesn't matter, that he does and he doesn't want him to kill the Joker because he wants better for him. You want me to go on?
>>145518964Bruce convincing Barbara to give her pussy to Jason. Jason made this proposal in Three Jokers
>>145519362It's really prove how comics don't deserve this much discussion about them. I like drama, but I hate the drama that are stupid and nonsensical.
>>145519421Really, Jason's issue is hard to solve and Batman could have easily helped him out. Instead, they had cut him down and then went into vacation because writers didn't feel like dealing with it. It end up only making Batman looks worse.
>>145519465>is hard *isn't
Why hasnt the justice system or somw random cop/civillian just off'd The Joker already?>muh corrupt systemWith how much bs Joker has done you'd think the guys paying off the judges would try getting them to kill the crazy fuck. The insanity plea has to have a limit
>>145519565because then DC couldn't milk the character anymore also I'm sure that they would do an issue like this if they ever did
>>145519421Batman's been socially stunted and emotionally cold since Miller reinterpreted him that way in Year One.>>145519565Joker's immortal.
>>145511987>Why wouldn't he just let him kill Joker?You think Batman's just gonna stand there and watch his boyfriend get murdered?
>>145519362You do realize that the problem isn’t Jason or Joker, but Bruce himself, right?
>>145519693You do know the question was about how could Batman save Jason, right?
I miss old Jason
>>145518723>even when the police literally beg you not to save Joker's life on multiple occasionsIf the Joker got cancer, Batman would create a cure for it just to save Jokers life!
>>145519741Still insane the original idea was to kill Dick off , have Jason be Nightwing for a few arcs, Only for DC to get cold feet and just made a weird Japanese vore story instead
>>145519741That's what I keep saying. Some of his fangirls having nostalgia for an era that basically destroyed Jason proves that they really don't read comics.
>>145519741
>>145518723Morrison's run started with Batman throwing Joker in a dumpster while a police officer tells him to stop because he's still alive.And yes, it is not Batman's responsibility to kill anyone. He's volunteering to do this. It's not his job, he has no legal authority.
>>145518964By raping him
>>145519741Explain.
>>145519022> Joker is still roaming free in the comic> Joker has to be pulled out from prison in the movieHe changed more than some scenes but that's the gits of it. The movie is more unambiguously manichean because readers reactions forced Winnick and DC to put more thoughts into this that they ever meant to.
>>145519725Yes, I know, but the answer overlooks the fact that Bruce is the reason Jason did all those terrible things in the first place.
>>145519022>was really surprised people sympathised with himhow fucked in the head do you have to be to be surprised that people would side with the guy who wanted his killer dead over the guy who would rather kill his adopted son than kill a mass murderer. Like seriously where the fuck do these people come from.
>>145520502Jason was throwing a temper tantrum because he didn't just want his killer dead, he wanted Batman to specifically perform a revenge killing on his behalf. Batman straight up told him "I don't want to be that guy" and he didn't like that answer.
>>145520502The Batman editors = Vince McMahon Batman = Hulk Hogan
>>145519741Looks better than his current character and costume. >>145519809I thought literally everyone just wanted him to be the guy from UTH again
>>145520564Everyone except Jason haters.
>>145520495Not really, Taila is. She is the one who didn't take him to Bruce when she found him and she is also the one who put the idea of revenge in his head the moment he regain awareness.
>>145520643I thought his haters who wanted him to be villain again? You want him like that too?
>>145520564They keep talking about how they want his post-crisis version back and it's the best one. Never mind the fact that he barely had anything in post-crisis and his character almost got destroyed.
>>145520564Most other fanbase want him to go back to that or being a villain. His fanbase is way more divided than that and only know him from other medias.
>>145520695Only winick fangirls do and they certainly don't make the majority.
>>145520695>only*mostly
>>145511987you can always make more robins, you can not make another joker, soulmates
>>145519809This is the only bad Jason story pre-Flashpoint.
>>145520725Hahaha you really prove his point that you don't read comics.
>>145512601this is the canon now, i can live with murder his gay son out of shame
>>145520644Funny how Tumblrinas don't acknowledge this. Taila is a major reason why he end up the way he did and it's her fault.
>>145520761If she actually has given him back to Bruce the moment she found him, he wouldn't have cared about the Joker.
>>145511987The better way to do this is have Batman actually be so moral in a religious degree that he can't see killing in any way justifiable. So he wants to save Jason from himself while also assuring he doesn't compromise his morals or else he couldn't see his parents again. Have him actually treat Jason like a lost son too. Not this angrily nearly killing Jason just to save Joker for no reason. If anything, Batman should want Joker dead but won't let Jason bloody his hands anymore because he cares about him.
>>1455196411.9 gazllion pajeets0 salesouch !!
>>145520761I don't I understand Tumblr love for Taila. Why do they even care for her?
>>145520803The same way they are trying so hard to pretend that they actually care about Duke.
>>145520780Who says that religion is against murders facing justice?
>>145520725A lot of Jason fans didn't like how Morrison turned him into a brand-obsessed Rorschach-lookalike who had his own Killing Joke moment with Dick. Though he was a handsome jerk again when Winick wrote the follow-up.
>>145520644Talia didn’t keep saving the Joker or let another kid take Jason’s place like his death meant nothing.
Batman dying would be the best thing for GothamAlso batwank killed batman comics thank you Alan moore
>>145520842>Though he was a handsome jerk again when Winick wrote the follow-up.That was actually the story that convinced me Winick should be kept as far away from Jason as possible. Ginger Thor reads Jane Austin in between bouts of beating up prison rapists in the shower. Granted pretty sure the next time he appeared after that was RH&tO #1 so monkeys paw
>>145520863She instead decided to give him a teaching course by murders.
>>145520863>let another kid take Jason’s place like his death meant nothing.Did you read A Lonely Place of Dying, Batman was turning into a violent rage-monster, Tim came to him and insisted on being Robin to keep him sane and grounded.
>>145520718True. This point was literally proven right. Sad as it was, his life was insignificant to the only person alive that he should’ve meant something to. He was easily replaced by someone better no sentimentality no love.
>>145520863Again, why didn't she give him back to Bruce the moment she found him? She was selfish and wanted to use Jason to get closer to Bruce.
>>145520840Depends on the sects but it's more that murder is wrong. Killing in self defense or in war is fine but not murdering a defenseless man. Even if he's guilty of a lot of murders himself. I'm just trying to come up with ways to make Batman's hardcore no kill rule work better than "I wouldn't be able to start once I start.">>145520842Yeah I didn't like that either but the writing itself wasn't the worst. Though Jason killing cops was probably a little too far.
>>145520714No, there's also autistic batfags and other robinfags and threads like this wouldn't exist without them. Winnickfags just never read or bothered to put 1 and 1 together with utrh so they think he is an intentional anti-villain and that being a crimelord is cool or the solution to crime or something. They're even more disconnected from reality than the haters.>>145520803She's not white and muslim according to Tumblr so she did nuthing wrong. I wish this was an hyperbole but that's it.
>>145520938The ironic thing, getting Jason back to Bruce would probably have endeared her a lot to him instead of basically kidnapping him.
>>145520966How the heck they think she is a Muslim? She literally walk around half naked.
>>145520885As expected from a kidnapper and assassin princess.
>>145520938>>145520644He was her pet braindead teenager she liked having him around. The fact that she fucked him after he got his brain back shows that she had been waiting for that moment.
>>145520885Jason almost killed Batman before he learned anything from the League of Assassins.>>145520938You know she let him go after the pit healed him, right?
>>145512601Bullshit. Bruce nearly murdered Joker himself after what he did to Jason.
>>145520997People so short-sighted they don't think through the connotations of what they're saying. Tying the League of Assassins to Islam gets you Holy Terror, a book these people hated.
>>145521047After she directly told him that he "remain unavenged" and sent him to degenerate criminals to teach him how to kill, instead of you know, telling to go to Batman or telling Batman about him.
>>145520997She's brown enough for them and it's easier than to assume she is the result of a very problematic trope for them: orientalism. So is DC probably, so I expect them to hop in to that trainwreck sooner or later.>She literally walk around half naked.That part isn't the most unbelievable when you know the children of the most powerful men in the middle east can be instagram and tick-tock hoes that rival with the west.
>>145520644So you want her to give him some retarded kid she found? What was he supposed to do with him?
>>145521098She even told him not to go to Batman because he didn't avenge him. She is completely responsible for what happened.
>>145521154Batman has a lot of super friends who could easily help him in healing him. It's not exactly impossible.
>>145521154To be fair retarded Jason was the perfect Robin. Still capable of fighting and acrobatics and didn't talk back so just shove him back in the Speedo and call him Bizarro Robin
>>145511987It's so goddamn simple: if Batman goes around killing guys, you can't put him in Happy Meals. That's it. That's the whole crux of the rule. They need to keep him marketable to 3-year-olds and murderers make parents nervous. That's it. It's been the case since the fucking 50's.
>>145521254Except this isn't marketed to kids, kids don't read comics, & the live action movies had him kill explicitly.
>>145512821>you're just as bad as him!That's always been the worst crutch. You're not "as bad as" someone who's already killed scores of people, has constantly broken out and murdered more. Incarceration is simply ineffective. Marooning them on a dead planet, maybe, but frankly a bullet's cheaper.Again, I say this with gritted teeth and tears in my eyes: they only don't kill because Batman needs to be a man of wax they can sell baby pajamas with his branding.
>>145521278Doesn't matter. DC Comics S&P is autistic about this. He's not a character, he's a brand. The BRAND needs to never kill someone "in cold blood," which they take to mean in every circumstance, forever. Same reason Superman doesn't just snap Zod's neck in every adaptation.
>>145521306My brother in Christ, I just told you the live action movies THE ONE THING THAT KIDS WILL DEFINITELY SEE has him kill explicitly. This is true for the Burton, Schumacher, Nolan, & Snyder movies. DC & WB are not THAT anal about brand integrity if they'd approve that.
>>145512746Superman’s explanation that the universe is bullshit and none of these assholes stay dead so murdering them just means now you don’t know where they’re going to strike from because when they’re in jail you at least know where they are temporarily always struck me as a better explanation. People have killed the Joker, but he somehow always survives and escapes.
>>145521098>After she directly told him that he "remain unavenged"She didn't lie.
>>145521338>I just told you the live action movies THE ONE THING THAT KIDS WILL DEFINITELY SEEMaybe in your mind-palace, but definitely didn't write it.But, newsflash: this isn't the fucking movies. The comics S&P do this shit constantly. Because DC loves nothing more than rewarming yesterday to make tomorrow.
>>145521181>>145521218My point is that there was nothing for him to come back to. By the time she had found him he had been living on the streets again as a vegetable for who knows how long. He’d have already been replaced, his things and photos shelved, and his name forgotten except when it was time to paint him at fault for dying. He wasn’t supposed to come back and his entire existence was reduced as nothing but an example. Why do you think he never tried to bring him back and when he did come back he wasn’t a tiniest bit happy he was alive or curious as to how he came back? It was for all intents and purposes a miracle that nobody wanted, somehow the retard kid version returning would’ve been bad too.
>>145521154>What was he supposed to do with him?Plenty.1 ) Turns him back to his former legal guardian? That guy she pretends to help by kidnapping a veggie kid and keeping that secret for years.2) Kill him before Batman discovers that, like her daddy told her to.3) She could have also turns him back to any authority or hospital since she found him in the middle of Gotham. She ironically would have had better chances to get into Batman's pants if she had done just that.
>>145521503Why would he want a retarded kid?
>>145520644>>145521411>>145521503This was the chick who kept his real kid from him. She probably wanted to collect them or something
Going by the Just War theory, Jason would be in the right for killing Joker knowing well that no prison can contain him and more people are going to die.
>>145521411You do know that the reason why Taila was interested in Jason in the first place because she knows that Bruce loves him and he would very happy to have him back, right? The thing is, she wasn't thinking about Jason's best interests (which would be with Bruce), she was only thinking about herself and how to get Batman to love her back.
>>145521607It would probably fuck him up more if she just gave him the kid like that. After she fixed him I guess she got kind of attached and felt bad that the dude that killed him was still around so things never worked out.
>>145521607The hilarious thing, Ra was more merciful with Jason than she was. He was willing to put Jason in a good hospital and under his protection.
>>145521670Having him like that where he could heal him is probably far more preferable to him than having him back as crime lord?
>>145521598If he kills him and then kills himself both murderers would be dead and therefore the problem is solved. Why hasn’t he done it yet?
Some of you seem to forget that she did heal him and yet she refused to give him back to Bruce and even told Jason to not look for Jason. She is a selfish psycho.
>Be Talia al Ghul.>Recover the corpse of your ex-boyfriend and secret baby daddy's dead teenage ward.>Toss him in a Lazarus pit.>Raise him to adulthood. Train him in the ways of war and murder.>Fuck his brains out.>Send him like guided missile at your ex.Why does Talia get ignored in this story? Why does Talia get a pass?
>>145521716Why are you such a faggot, that’s the real question
>>145521571Unlike you Batfag, Batman is supposed to be a good guy so he would at least have to pretend he cares about the kid.
>>145521709I mean not really. He was still a kid and it would probably suck really hard for a recovering kid to learn that his father figure blamed him for his brutal death and let his murderer go, tried to erase any evidence of him existing but one fucked up thing, and then replaced him with some other kid. He’d probably just run away again or something.
>>145521734>>145521749She even told Jason to kill Batman in revenge for her father. She was using and manipulating him.
>>145521792He’d send him to a fancy out of state hospital where he’d be taken care of for the rest of his life out of sight out of mind. Talia saved him.
>>145521797Your problem is that you think Batman is some kind of psycho while trying give excuses for the actual psycho (Taila). Batman loves Jason and always did. He definitely cares far more about his will being than Taila does.
>>145520966Crimelord Jason is the best Jason.
>>145521866If they did this scenario today he’d piss his pants while the jonkler beats the shit out of his unprotected head again.
>>145521797>his father figure blamed him for his brutal deathSpeaking of which, remember when Alfred blamed Jason’s death on himself? I’d love for Jason to bring it up during a get together whenever someone cries about Alfred (probably Dick).
>>145521674>He was willing to put Jason in a good hospital and under his protection.This is either made up or movie only. He told her he was a curse and to get ride of him before Batman learn about this mess in LD. He has still more sense than her and call her delusional, though. Talia is really only in this to score points with Bruce at first.
>>145521858Because they probably don't read comics and decided they are experts after seeing out of context panels in Tumblr. Some writers definitely blamed Jason, but most of the times it was just Batman mourning the lose of his kid. Even to this day, Jason's death is the biggest pain in his life right alongside his parents' death.
Why are Batman fans more likely to draw out a convo near the post limit to win an argument? Some of the biggest schizo threads come from them.
>>145521914He did and it was in LD. He said out of respect for his father he would put him in hospital. He wasn't going to kill him.
>>145521858How was she supposed to know that? She found him when he was living on the streets. I don’t think she loved him but she obviously cared about him seeing as she kept him alive while he was literally a vegetable.
>Jason, I love you so much that I’m going to let Joker live so he can murder more poor innocent children and inflict such a painful existence on their loved ones. I am such a standup guy.
>>145521289There have been Elseworlds where Batman has killed the Joker like The Nail and Bloodstorm and adaptations like Burton's Batman. But he's not going to stay dead in the comics because he's a popular character and popular characters never stay gone forever.
Why doesn’t Jason just get over it? Is he stupid?
>>145521946Ironic to say that considering the daily thread we get about Spider-Man. >>145521954Supposed to know what? That Bruce loves him? She literally knows and even said so herself. It's the reason why she took interest in him.
>>145521977This post is stupid. Jason is not real. Touch grass and stop liking DC.
>>145521977He actually got over it a long time ago, but his fans didn't.
>>145522010For real, though. Jason never brought this matter with Batman again since UTH which was almost 20 years ago.
>>145522010They wrapped up an arc not too long ago where Batman got so mad at Jason for being a killer that he turned him into a fraidycat. Running concurrent to that was Jason trying his hardest to kill a Joker in The Man Who Stopped Laughing and failing.
>>145521976Sure, but sometimes I wish he'd stay dead or at least have to compete for "Batman's arch and guiding light' or whatever. Getting in war with Hush because he's clearly gotten deeper under Bruce's skin would be neat, for an example.As it is, yeah, I think Joker is overplayed.
>>145521890Good thing DC doesn’t allow writers to mention anything about Winick’s Jason.
>>145522003Clearly not anon he already got over it apparently
>>145521858If he loved him so much he would’ve brought him back like he did for his real son. Let’s not pretend that Jason was some angel he got along great with. Dude was in the process of being booted for going psycho before he got the smack down.
>>145522076He died and a skinwalker took his place and gave him a stupid costume.
>>145522121We already showed you many examples of Batman flat out saying that he loves him. You simply don't care about facts so why you keep involving yourself in this discussion?
>>145521833> out of sight out of mindAt worst, Bruce being an hypocrite and Jason being fucked over because no adults in Batman can't adult is nothing new under the sun. At best, comics forgetting about the character would be an improvement over what they did and keep doing with RH.>Talia saved himMental gymnastic. She used him, at best, and Damian exist now.
>>145522075He did get in a war with Hush. The reason why Jason found Joker sitting alone and miserable by himseif in UtH was because Hush had taken everything from him. And then Joker picked himself up and got his revenge by putting a pacemaker into Tommy and fucking with his heart while Batman decided to wash his hands of the whole mess.
>>145522164no adults in Batman can adult*
>>145522161Just in case, brought it back from archive thanks to an anon.>He loves you too much...and fear losing you">"I have certain fondness for Jason">"Jason knew how much I loved him">"The love I had for him...">"You can't stop me because you loves me too much".>"Jason, I love you"
>>145519787That was also how they were going to bring Jason back. IIRC, Jason was originally suppose to be DEAD dead at the end of Under the Red Hood, so that would have been their way of bringing him back (also makes the whole 'Bruce and the boys redo his oirignal training mission when he first became Batman' thing during 52 make more sense).
>>145522161Loved him sure it would make him look like a psycho otherwise, but again not THAT much. He wanted him to stay dead.
>>145522164>be an improvement over what they did and keep doing with RHI will take what they are doing with him now over the mess he was before new 52. The problem is that you refuse to give him a chance or even help the writers to improve their take on him by giving a good criticism instead of bashing and screaming about muh Winick.
>>145522266>"...when I think about Jason and I want I endure to have him back"He said this btw.
>>145522271I don’t care what they do with him I just want the leather jacket and the helmet back.
>>145522271>complaining about muh winnick in a utrh bait threadYou're free to eat shit if you want and we both know that the only "good criticism" you'll take is the one that valid your feelings.
>>145522319When? Also what word is that one “I” supposed to be?
>>145522271The problem is both sides blaming the characters instead of not blaming DC for not having a long term plan for him when they decided to bring him back instead of the mess they made. Neither Jason's behavior or Batman's made much sense and I sometimes wish they used N52 to improve UTH and its aftermath.
>>145522340Hilarious coming from you. Why do you even like Jason if you believe that nothing that was done with him was good? Or are you pretending that the uth comic was some kind of masterpiece?
>>145522391I like his helmet
>>145522391Good question. Why do you people like Jason? You complain about everything that was done with him all the time which makes me wonder. Personally, I did enjoy some of his stuff and I have recently finished reading N52 Outlaws which I thought it was a fun book.
>>145522391>>145522444Sometimes it feels that they enjoy whining more than the character himself. I mean, they could have done a better job in pushing him, but it's cape comic. Dick Grayson has been around for almost 90 years and barely has anything worthwhile. Just don't expect much.
>>145522531Don't forget Damian who has been relearning the same lesson over and over again or poor old Tim who basically has nothing now. >>145522340You are reading cape comics, buddy. You either lower your standards and accept them as mindless fun or you don't have a taste to begin with if you take them seriously.
>>145522391The movie was cool. They should do more stuff like that.
>>145522076It may not have been the "right" Joker, but at least Johns gave Jason the satisfaction of blowing out the Joker's brains at least once.
>>145522589Or Batman relearning the value of his family again and again. Dropping DC (or Marvel) would be the smart choice. They don't have much to offer anymore (or ever really).
>>145522618He got the pleasure of killing Joker three times. In this book, Countdown and JWSL.
>>145522271I gave them a chance to explain why Jason needs redemption, but all I got was nothing. So why should I give them any more chances?
>>145522744He was a crime lord who dealt with drugs. His hands weren't clean.
>>145522744Look at that bare neck… ripe for the slitting… hnnn
>>145522391I am "muh winnick" or am I thinking utrh is a masterpiece? Just pick your horse, anon. The fact you only equate Jason to RH is not my problem too.>>145522589>lower your standardsDid and done with it, DC is not the fun kind of dumb for me. Dicussing about something and taking it seriously are two different things.
All this talk made me miss Jason. It's been sometimes since we saw him.
>>145522905Yeah, I wonder if Abernathy was the one who was pushing him because since he left Jason appearances were reduced massively.
>>145511987When is Bruce doing this to Damian? I just want him to beat the fuck out of that kid. Is that too much to ask?
>>145522944It does feel this way. We used to have a book after another, but we barely have anything now. Oh well, I'm basically done with DC anyway once all-winter book finishes.
>>145522882>I am "muh winnick" or am I thinking utrh is a masterpiece?I'm pretty sure it means both. "muh" usually means that you are obsessed with liking this character or writer.
>>145522161Impossible to believe he actually loves him after >>145511987 he’d be relieved if he died today
>>145522944It seems like he is intentionally being excluded. If he has no book announced in the next NYC, then he is officially in limbo.
Did Jason fuck Steph? Why did Damian leave her out of his drawing?
>>145523190I have mixed feelings about this. I'm planning to leave DC anyway, but I kinda miss seeing my boy.
>>145523190Might be for the best. Maybe they can figure out what direction to take with him that people would actually want to buy.
>>145523204He found out about his thing with his mom. But let’s be real none of the family ever particularly gave a fuck about him.
>>145522905>>145522944He didn't have a cameo. It does seems like Abernathy was indeed was the one who was pushing.
>>145522770And what is he now? Nothing?
>>145523222It doesn't seem like people care about buying DC in general. The majority of their books seem to be low selling.
>>145523257yeah pretty much.
Jeremy Adams’ Green Lantern run is dogshit and I have accepted that Rebirth-era GL was a once in a life time thing. No Jason means I’m not spending any time on DC.
>>145523257Eh, what? You were asking for a reason about why he needs redemption and I simply told why.
>>145523190Kind of ironic. Some of his fans want things to return how it was pre-flashpoint and they got their wish. Very few or barely any appearances like he used to. Not even a mention. Hope it would teach a lesson, but I doubt it.
>>145520800>the majority of people that buy comics are white people>what if we pander to other people?>brilliant idea>blame whiteys for not buying the shitLike pottery
>>145523302It's a bit decent compared to Morrison's GL, but yeah. Hal's story feel finished anyway.
>>145523358I kind of like it. Now if only he was still an antagonistic figure instead of a washed up punching bag.
>>145523410Yeah, because he wasn't a punching bag for the batfamily when he was an "antagonist". Enjoy another attempt in making Jason an ugly meta villain for Dick.
>>145513173Well put. I only saw the animated movie and just found out about the comic ending in this thread
>>145523464Nothing he said was true. The point wasn't proving Jason right, quite the opposite actually. If Winick actually cared about showing Jason in right, he would have him ask Batman why he endangered other kids after him.
>>145523457No he actually fought back. Now they ask him to die after they lobotomize him and he’s completely chill with it. Volunteers even.
Do the Batman editors hate poor people? Where’s Steph and Jason these days
>>145523675Sex
>>145523637"Fought back" and where that leads him? Oh, right to show how superior Dick is and every other Robin to him.
>>145523700The fact that we have people defending the take on Jason perior to Flashpoint is truly something. They literally almost ruined his character for good.
>>145523700They still run with that narrative now kek.
>>145523204No, Jason doesn't have sex unless he's forced to. And women never come back for a second time, he's that bad.
>>145523675"Why aren't my favorite batfam characters around all the time" leads to a crowded mess
>>145523849Not really, they don't.
>>145523849That's not true at all.
>>145523865It makes more sense to focus on the Batfam than Harley Quinn and Poison Ivy.
>>145524007Also, why Catwoman still have a book? It doesn't seem like she sells well.
>>145524007>>145524030I'm not sure what DC sale expectations for a book anymore. Though, it does seem like they want the headline of being a company that have so many female books regardless whether they actually sell or not.
>>145523862Hi Tim.
>>145524030Because Tini Howard caught the editors having a gay orgy with the male interns.
>>145524007The market says otherwise. Poison Ivy was originally supposed to be a mini, demand turned it into an ongoing.
>Timfags having another meltyHow stereotypically feminine!
>>145524087Maybe for synergy? They are hoping the new attempt in making another cinematic universe will work somewho? The first volume of Batman and Robin that came out recently doesn't seem like it sold well either and yet it still continuing.
>>145524141>demandCome on. There supposed a "demand" for GA and yet the book seems to be barely selling.
>>145524030Catwoman has had a book since the 90s and is one of the most recognized names in the Bat, behind only Batman and Robin and ahead of Batgirl, for the general public. If DC were to kill all the comics that aren't selling well, they'd only be left with Batman, Superman, Nightwing and something Tom King is writing.
>>145523675Hush, you. They are both white privileged and must die for reparations over Orpheus biting it in War Games. The three Orpheus fans on Tumblr deem it so!
>>145524303So, why not a solo Red Hood which DC still refuses to give him? It's not like people don't recognize the name either.
>>145524303>If DC were to kill all the comics that aren't selling well, they'd only be left with Batman, Superman, Nightwing and something Tom King is writing.DC really is no different than that wrestling dirt sheet by Meltzer. The industry is at an all time low and yet everyone pretends otherwise.
>>145522243Yeah, DiDio wanted it to be some story where Jason was put in the role as Nightwing and had to earn his trust in the Bat-senpai in being that instead of edgy killer.Then when Dick was spared, we got killer knockoff Nightwing rival who becomes a tentacle monster.
>>145524337DC doesn't know what to do with the character, and since he's not a necessity. In other words, a comic book that the reader has to have in order to buy it, the publisher simply leaves it like that. Soon DC will release something.
>>145524303I mean, they supposedly canceled a lot of books or refuse to give some characters books because they don't sell well, but Harley, Ivy and Selina are given endless chances just because?
>>145524409And are we pretending that actually know what are they doing with the characters that have books now and they are totally necessary?
>>145524477For sure. What's the point of the current BR book?
>>145524531Or Dick having another year one book. DC line up is just boring and repetitive.
>>145524531Damain needs a book
>>145524563Mark Waid wanted to write this, DC has the opportunity to put another Year One on the cover. That's it.
>>145524409Problem is a lot of Jasons fanbase aren't comic buyers. So yeah like while when people were still looking forward to Gotham Knights he was the character that they seemed most into that doesn't really translate into sales for an ongoing
>>145524565He is boring and keep having the same arc over and over again.
>>145524614I doubt his books are selling any worse than most of their books right now. DC even had to use some tricks to get absolute power event to sell. So, why doesn't he have an ongoing since 2020?
>>145511987>Why wouldn't he just let him kill Joker? Is Joker's life worth more than Robin's life to Batman?Editorial.
>>145524618Yes, but he needs a book. It's the same with Jon Kent, nobody likes him, it's always the same old Jay Nakamura shit, but he needs to have comics coming out. Because if he doesn't, DC will be the publisher that doesn't give anything to gay characters.
>>145523866>>145523888Nobody gives a fuck about Jason Robin dude. He’s a shitter.
>>145524742I like him pre-Crisis, his short in Robin 80th was good.
>>145524742Your comment doesn't even makes sense in the context of the posts you quoted. Not every opinion you have need to be randomly stated out loud.
>>145511987>Is Joker's life worth more than Robin's life to Batman?This specific one yes. Before any of the others he’d sacrifice the second one.
>>145524590The only reason that makes me kind of miss Didio is that Waid wouldn't have returned to DC if he still around.
>>145524803Every other Robin is superior to him and that’s been made obvious multiple times.
>>145524847Didio probably wouldn't have allowed Nightwing to have this much shilling and pushing if he still around. I might even take 5G over this.
>>145524864Maybe before when he was dead or trying to make him a villain? Nowadays? Nah, they acknowledge that the fault lays with Batman and he was a good Robin.
>>145524303It's been like that for ages. Even back in the New 52, nearly half of them were Bat-Book or Bat-Adjacent. And even the ones that had nothing to do with Batman had him or the other Bat-Family members show up before they got axed.Like, Static Shock had a new villain called The Laughing Man who's just some random cop who survived being dosed with Joker Gas
>>145524961Bat-books used to sell back then. I remember that it was reported few years back that DC is carried by Batman and his family. Nowadays even Tec doesn't sell well.
>>145524937When have they ever done that.
>>145525001>"You weren't failure, Batman failed"That was just last year.
>>145525001Since forever? Batman literally said that he was the best. His reputation mostly got dragged down later to push Tim and they have stopped doing that.
>>145525069Some forget that Batman said multiple times that he was proud of Jason when he was Robin and never mind that he actually saved Superman and Wonder Woman (Superman even acknowledged this when he talked to him when he returned as Red Hood).
>>145524320God, imagine if UTRH and War Games tied together but more cohesively and not shit.
>>145524742Jason Robin had more personality in his little finger by being a sidekick who asked questions. That one we here asked Bruce why he never told him about his father’s murderer was great.
>>145511987If you like Jason, not letting this discussion die doesn't help the character.
>>145525119Doesn’t Superman hate him
>>145525282In today's DC, does anyone hate anyone else? I don't think even Deathstroke hates Nightwing anymore after Dark Crisis.
>>145525270In their defense, it’s literally the only even mildly interesting thing his reintroduction brought to the table. They will never actually touch the morality of that shit again with a five foot pole though.
>>145525359Only thing? Nah, Jason is the best one because he’s not the generic best son or the reactionary replacement.
>>145525463What else does he do now?
>>145525463But he's literally a generic replacement for Dick Grayson. The difference is he was a redhead.
>>145525698Nigga we live in a post-Crisis world. Nobody except that hack Morrison cares about it.
>>145525698Don't dare to say a word against Pre-Crisis Jason. He was actually interesting and personification of 80s.
>>145525766His relationship with Batman was so wholesome. Bruce was truly at his best during this time. He is now just a mere shadow of his former self.
>>145525698He was basically like that post crisis too only the hair color was natural and he was a street kid instead. Only near the end did the start making him edgy and shit.
>>145525795That one shot of Batman trying to sleep is one of my favorite Batman stories of all time.
>>145525766I'm not saying anything bad, I prefer Robin Jason pre-crisis, everything, the origin, the personality and everything he was involved in. I liked that in Robin 80th, Winick ignored Jason post-crisis and made Jason pre-crisis.
>>145514778>>145515385>>145516113>>145517026The problem is that the Bat Office has this low key schizo cult thing about how Batman has to be portrayed. Honestly most character offices probably have something like it, but Bat Schizo shit is just way more obvious.Bruce is basically only allowed to be wrong if it makes him more of a tortured badass or if it facilitates them keeping their toys in their control. He's not allowed to be challenged in a way framed as legitimate on shit like his code or the like, etc. His place as Batman can never be legitimately threatened either, and suggesting anyone is better than him as a crime fighter at anything other than hyper specific things in very specific ways [Cass and fighting, which requires her to be an abused orphan giga-autist for example] also isn't allowed. Further, anything that gets close to impinging up the office's ability to self insert as Dick and Bruce as 20-30 something year old men also just isn't allowed to happen.The result is that because of all these arbitrary "rules" and conflicting impulses you get situations like Bruce trying to kill Jason, or "Bruce saves the mass murder plot #23827" or the like where Bruce just loses his fucking mind for a moment and we're supposed to side with him anyway because "He's Batman."
>>145525766They needs to bring some of his stories back. His relationship with Bullock was hilarious and surprisingly so fitting.
>>145525858Dude, it's Batman. You want DC to sacrifice Batman for someone else who could never give DC/Warner what Batman gives?
>>145525824He was the exact same in the costume only without the references to the circus. It wasn’t until the timeskip where they made him older he was made more abrasive.
>>145525824Nah, his post-crisis origin was good. The best origin story out of any bat character. His pre-crisis stories though were really fun and officially made him my favorite Robin. I wish they actually reprint and collect it in one Omnibus.
>>145525858At least Batkek and Failsafe/Zurr have been pretty open with the concept of "100% Preptime Batman without the Batfamily who Kills is a fucking stupid idea."
>>145525895The thing is that you don't have to sacrifice Batman at all just maybe have Bruce actually admit that he has a problem. He, specifically, psychologically cannot allow himself to kill, because he would not be able to stop if he did. That's valid, and the no kill rule is in and of itself not unfair to hold yourself or even your proteges to so long as you're consistent.The issue is this combined with the fact that Bruce is a paranoid control freak who's very good at controlling everything and finding out everything and he makes the mistake of presuming that because he or a few of the psychos he's fought could never reliably moderate themselves NOBODY can and he ends up trying to enforce his shit on everyone around him. Generally he has enough self control to keep it contained to Gotham, but the problem with Bruce's crusade is that he's too fucking good at being a paranoid control freak and sees no issue with it because he's legitimately mentally unwell. So the idea that, very specifically, sometimes Gotham would be better served with somebody dead in a situation where it's not premediated murder can be something Bruce knows but cannot and will not do for legitimate reasons rather than kneejerk shitflinging.You can have Batman just fine, just have him recognize the issue and account for it and stop himself from being a fucking spazz, actually codify not just what the no kill rule is but WHY it is and allow other characters who regularly interact with him to actually understand that it's not JUST a moral principal for him. Basically admit that the guy isn't perfect but he legitimately is doing the best he can.
>>145523204The drawing doesn't make sense at all. Since when Conner loves Damian? He talked to him few times and pretty much quickly forgot his existence afterwards, but Damian somewho believe that they are best friends forever? Rose doesn't even think of Damian. Babs didn't even bother to come to his funeral and doesn't really care much for him. Cass doesn't even acknowledge him. It feels they were added randomly just to give the impression that many cares for this prick.
>>145526152Don't think, just consooom.
>>145526152The funny thing, the two that were excluded make more sense than majority in the picture.
>>145525766Gerry Conway justified the similar origin as him being a parallel to Dick, but unfortunately for branding purposes his hair had to be dyed and we couldn't have a light-haired Robin. Couldn't have Don Newton's suit design either.
>>145526152I thought that was supposed to be Jon "I suck tranny cock" Kent and not Conner
>>145525270>These topics never die>Just like Jason
>>145526016His origin story is one of the worst. Tries too hard to be sad and somehow this malnourished street urchin who appeared out of nowhere suddenly becomes almost on par with a trained acrobat? His dad is in prison except not really he died and it was a secret for some reason because Bruce wanted to keep the brat. Just dumb.
>>145526285Jon in the picture. He was the one in the right.
>>145526301He’s gotta be immortal by now with how many times they seemingly kill him and he just pops back up kek
>>145526302And then suddenly so many decades later Willis isn't dead but is some vigilante like his son, except he dies for good and Ma Gunn is related to him.
>>145526285It’s definitely Jon “I fuck trannies” Kent, not Conner.
>>145526211Who was excluded his mom (kind of understandable) and?
>>145526329Imagine some mini-series where it's just Jason being killed in increasingly ludicrous ways but he just can't truly die, and after a certain point he tries to welcome the death and set himself up for stupid stunts.
>>145526302The worst is a tie between Tim and Cass.
>>145526335I won’t count retarded years later retcons against it. They do that to everyone. The original was bad enough without it.
>>145526302It doesn't need to try, it was sad without being overly tragic. Him stealing Batman's tires and and challenging him without fear was just awesome. It's not like it's hard to believe that he was pretty talented and fast learner and six months is enough for him to learn. More believable than rich boy Tim running in Robin costume and being good from his try or how he found out Batman's identity and stalking when he was 5 or something.
>>145526406>yfw "toddler" Tim in his backstory looked like Martin Short in Clifford with how tall and ridiculous he was drawn
>>145526357Jason and Steph. The former actually saved his life and the latter was closer to him than other Batgirl.
>>145526406Seriously, imagine calling Jason's origin unrealistic when Tim exists. His origin story is so ridiculous that they basically refused to adapt it in the cartoon.
>>145526424Kek
>>145526329For a while some people online thought Jason was immortal due to a passing comment in the Future's End one-shot.>>145526335That was Lobdell trying to juggle the Leviathan bullshit Bendis was planning. His original plan was Willis being Solitary and be a recurrent villain for Jason until he was told of Leviathan, he made Willis Wingman because the idea was having a way to return Jason as one of the good guys instead of being DC's Cobra Commander a permanent status quo.
>>145526499That's basically because Tim had the name but his origin took some beats from Jason's with the dead criminal dad, hence the "Timmy Todd" nickname by fans.
>>145526360Elaborate. From what I can remember people like both of them a lot.
>>145526578Nta, but their origin stories are pretty silly and over the top.
>>145526428He doesn’t like Jason though but yeah it’s weird that Steph was not included but not surprising either.
>>145526522>and be a recurrent villain for JasonI'm glad that didn't happen. His father returning as wingman just to see him and help him out was better. I'm glad that Lobdell brought him back (I also refuse to acknowledge what happend in incorporated or the book itself).
>>145526607But he likes Tim, Cass and Babs? That just a silly excuse.
>>145526648I don’t get why they brought the dad back. He just watched some random rich fuck steal his son and then get him killed in like three years and didn’t feel anything about it?
>>145526675Jason has tried to kill him and he has no reason to not dislike him. They don’t get along at all.
>>145512601Someone still got murdered though, equivalently it's all the same as if he did nothing
>>145526740Yeah but it’s between an insane guy he has a lot of history with and is autistically obsessed with in some strange way and a sane asshole he mentored who just thinks he’s justified in mass killing people.
>>145526597Cass at least has "League of Facefuckers" autism to explain it, which is within reason for them because they're a kooky culty middle easter/asian murder convention. Tim kind of just meme'd his way into being a Robin.
>>145519022No. He just hated his writing and wanted to improve it. Nobody liked Jason back then. >>145520502Jason was an unhinged psychopath in the original version. Anyone who sympathized with either him or Joker are fucked in the head.
>>145526733Jason literally saved his life. Damian actually owes him that. Besides, these two always banter whenever they are together. It was Tim who he actually hated his gut and Tim has no reason to like him either.
>>145526733I mean that's mainly because Jason is the only one willing to kill. Damian is generally mainly tolerated by the others as the shithead brat Bruce has on a leash because they know that as long as Bruce is around he won't try too much shit but most of them have beaten on him IIRC other than like, Tim and a few of the diversity hire bats, and that's mainly because everyone beats the ever loving fuck out of Tim, not the other way around, and the others just don't show up almost fucking ever.
>>145526809>>145526827Okay yeah it is hilarious they included Tim but not him. Maybe anons were right in thinking they are intentionally excluding him from stuff.
>>145526733>Jason has tried to kill himWhen? He never cared about injuring him when he was crazy, but he never tried to kill him. If he wanted him dead, he had many chances to put a bullet in his head.
>>145526871I honest to god kind of agree on further thought. Jason is the only one of the Batfamily to have ever really decisively pushed Bruce hard, if Jason wanted Damian dead the kid would be dead unless Bruce or one of the others was there to save him and even then unless it's Dick, Cass, or maybe Barbara I'd still put good odds on Damian's brains painting the street.
Killing is good as long as you kill the right people. Also, some collateral damage is acceptable.
>>145526827Why would anyone even care for Damian? I don't remember him even doing anything for any of them.
>>145526908He's Bruce's kid, and a young shithead who takes the burden of "Who's gonna be Batman 2" off their shoulders with Jason being the only one who was decently functional who ever really seemed to actually want that job.That's basically it. Nepotism and pity more or less.
>>145526802He was still really young then. I just felt bad for him, he clearly had lost it.
>>145526871Yeah good point. If he was serious he would’ve done a headshot.
>>145526802>Jason was an unhinged psychopath in the original version.That's not true. I have my fair share of problems with Winick, but Jason wasn't unhinged. Besides, he has every right to demand his justice considering that Joker tortured him and killed him. His resurrection was also brutal and tragic so it's not exactly hard to see why many sympathized with him and took his side. If anything, it's Batman who unintentionally come off worse and looked like a psycho.
>>145526935It's hard to believe Jason was only meant to be some 19 year old killer headcase, and then things get more ridiculous the more muscle and mass they pack on him. Where does he go to lift.
>>145527088He was actually just 18.
>>145527088>>145527105You could tell that they tried to make look older and bigger so Batman wouldn't look worse by beating him up. I would say they failed.
>>145527015The situation in comic was definitely worse. In the movie, Joker was actually in jail and Tim didn't exist while in comics Batman was still playing cat and mouse with Joker like nothing changed. Jason's anger was understandable.
Is Batman crazier than Joker for thinking the state of New Jersey is going to do its job, put him away, and give his victims justice?
>>145511987Joker died and came back in the same issue, it's not even worth pretending he died.
>>145525282...why would he hates him?
>>145524337It's pretty insane that he doesn't even have one solo on-going. What DC are even doing?
>>145527510There's still a chance to announce something for him in October, but don't hold your breath or expect much since we are talking about dc here.
>>145527510>It's pretty insane that he doesn't even have one solo on-going. What DC are even doing?The editorial thought Jason's lower-class background and propensity for brutalizing criminals were cool, so they made it Bruce's new origin story in Absolute Batman.
>>145527579It's both sad and hilarious. Freaking DC, AP would have been a prefect fit for Jason and definitely more so than Bruce.
>>145527625It's funny hearing Scott Synder talk in interviews about how Batman is an underdog in this one. What a fucking hack.
>>145526787Other way around, Tim still had to work for his spot while Cass was a neckbeard fantasy who joined the spot much quicker than Tim or Steph did because NML is a bad event.
>>145524337Because he's a good one-off character but a terrible ongoing concept that should have been shelved 15 years ago.Either he's a successful mass murderer and Batman is a failure for not stopping him, or he's Red Nightwing clinging like a leech to Dick and the Titans.Both suck past the first story.
>>145527879Oh boy, you are still clinging to this stupid take?
>>145521362So the explanation is that Batman knows he's a comic book character and just gave up beating Joker's plot armor? Honestly believable.
>>145527879>Because he's a good one-off character but a terrible ongoing concept that should have been shelved 15 years ago.A take so bad that only the D-Man could make it.
>>145527911Apparently every random can carry a book, but Red Hood is just one-off character who shouldn't be allowed to have a book because of some bs reason.
They're giving Two-Face a mini apparently.
>>145527965Which makes that guy point even more ridiculous.
>>145527946Task Force Z, Future State Gotham, Red Hood The Hill
Oh look, redwing anon is here.>>145527965What's up with the villain books they keep making left and right?
>>145528025>Red Hood The HillThat one was just DC tricking readers into thinking Jason got his own comic.
>>145528025What about the? Are trying to imply that they don't sell well? This excuse doesn't work when the majority of their books can't even make it to top 100. BR is literally barely in it and it's still around.
>>145528144This. Before, I would understand. But now? DC can freak off. They have no excuse anymore.
Red Hood stuff doesn't sell well these days because DC always makes sure there's a catch that makes the books unreadable.
>>145528025>two of them doesn't even have his name and he barely appeared in third >>145528144Also, this. What DC excuse for nor giving him a book?
>>145528249>Also, this. What DC excuse for nor giving him a book?"What do you mean Jason doesn't have an ongoing? Are you not reading From the DC Vault: Death in the Family: Robin Lives!?
>>145527015>>145527215Does DC hate Red Hood because he's living proof that Batman's crusade was a failure?
>>145528966The character is not dead, he is not in limbo. He appears in Batman from time to time. If DC hated him, he would no longer exist.
>>145521254>They need to keep him marketable to 3-year-olds and murderers make parents nervous.What Luke Skywalker or Optimus Prime? Both are soldiers and kill their enemies, yet they get in on the Happy Meal deal.
>>145528966DC just doesn't know what to do with Jason when his appeal is being a bad boy vigilante but they can't let him kill anyone. They also can't let him get away from the Batfamily because they all must exist together in the same city.
>>145529783>They also can't let him get away from the Batfamily because they all must exist together in the same city.Truth be told, the main Batfamiliy were all assholes. I wanna see Jason interact with the extended Batfamily for a change.
... I didn't like Red Hood and the Outlaws.
>>145529913He only has small interactions with Steph. He'd get along with Ghostmaker probably.
>>145530114>He'd get along with Ghostmaker probably.Lmao I forgot he existed. Shit, I forgot Tynion existed until just now.
Does anyone actually like the generic antihero shitheads like Jason? You'd think that characters like this would be aimed at teens because they act like self-righteous teens, but I really can't imagine they're popular with anyone in actuality.
>>145530259>Does anyone actually like the generic antihero shitheads like Jason?What sets Jason apart is that he had like two decades worth of set up and everyone but the neckbeards who voted for his death loved him when he came back.
>>145529913Like Azrael? Denny O'Neil really had no idea what to do with him afterwards. Literally starts his book with him living in a homeless shelter after Batman takes back the cowl.
I'm so fucking tired of Bruce and Dick that I want to see what she's up to.
>>145511987Killing the joker makes you the biggest killer in townWas to much for himStill technically out of character
>>145530172Yeah they shoved him & Clownkiller(?) onto Batman Incorporated.
>>145530453>Denny O'Neil really had no idea what to do with him afterwards.That's because Denny made him to be a strawman for Batman to dab on. After all, he was never actually going to tackle the topic of Batman killing criminals.
>>145530338I feel like even if you liked him as Robin, which is reasonable, I don't see why you would like him in stories where he is just a shithead. He only really works as a foil to the rest of the Bat Family to contrast how even Damian isn't nearly as much of a shithead.
>>145530611Pretty sure Dixon was the one with a hate boner for the 90s trend of replacing the OG version and pushed for the strawman building stereotype. Though I doubt Denny was that far from that opinion as well.
>>145530614>I don't see why you would like him in stories where he is just a shitheadProbably because he earned the right to be a shithead after getting murdered as a child and his father doing everything in his power to stop his avenging.
>>145530453He wrote an entire 100 issue series for him, that was pure O'Neil Pet Project.
>>145530743Did you actually read A Death in the Family, Batman was fuming. Joker ends up shot and caught in a helicopter explosion. Then he had some time to cool down about it.
>>145530815the better red hood
>>145530852But the Joker came back and would go on to do more evil shit as the years went by.
>>145530852He's saying Bruce stopped Jason from getting his revenge.
>>145512041Yep, improves both sides>shows more that jason doesn't care about killing joker, he's more angry at bruce and wants bruce to prove that he did actually love him>shows that bruce does care about jason but isn't about to let either of them make a life-changing decision out of anger and pain while also demonstrating about equal skill to ricocheting the batarang
>>145530815Pretty sure he was obligated to do it, especially since Quesada ran to Marvel shortly after doing the Sword of Azrael miniseries, cause there were many points where he just ran out of plot ideas several times and rehashed shit. Literally events were what caused the most changes and they were definitely corporate mandates.
>>145530912Jason could have had revenge at any time if that was what he really wanted.
>>145531154It's part of it. What he really wants is for Bruce to show he loves him since he feels like he was replaced & didn't even have the dignity of knowing his killer was dead too.
>>145531010DC was never under any obligation to publish an Azrael series and they didn't create a new version of the character until six years later. I think he just wanted to write a book for the sake of writing one.
>>145528025>Outlaws>Cheer>Task Force Z>Future State: Gotham>The Man Who Stopped Laughing >The HillI'm surprised none of Jason fans tried to burn DC office down after all these years.
>I'm still here.
>>145531428If the only book of his you liked is Under the Hood maybe he's just not a character meant for longevity.
>>145511987You just don't get it bro they exist for each other so Batman would rather nuke Gotham and turn it into a layer of glass on Earth's crust than let the Joker chip a single nail
>>145531474This, blame the character, not the incompetent editors and writes.
>>145531428Most of us have given up hope because having to learn WHY Jason gets fucked over, IE the dumpsterfire that is the Bat Office and DC comics in general, was too depressing and we know it was never going to be fixed.The only way to unfuck Jason's situation involves letting him "win" which the Joker and Batman brainbugs in the Office won't let happen, change the Joker back into a better written character to make Jason be unreasonable, which won't happen because the comics are too attached to fake-crazy greasepain 1000 IQ murderer Joker, Let Jason leave and become his own man which they won't allow because they refuse to lose control of their toys, partially out of Batman obsession [his proteges becoming their own men makes him "seem old" and suggests that he was "holding them back or is somehow lesser" per Didio IIRC.] and they also refuse to actually have Jason find some form of meaningful closure or the like with Bruce emotionally because again, BatSchizo shit, or by finding a way to seriously "hurt" or damage the Joker in some way that has actual relevance outside of killing him either, because again Nobody is allowed to impinge the Joker's place as Le Uncontrollable Ultimate Villain of Chaos who only Batman can hope to stop in comics.So Jason is just fucked because absolutely no solution is *allowed* to exist and being the edgy fuck up son is all he's allowed to have left. Better off than Tim I guess though who was pointless before with Damian AND Dick around but now is pointless and gay.
>>145531625I think Jason’s situation is worse than Tim’s. I mean, at least Tim is still Robin, while Jason is just Red Hood in name, and the more stories he gets, the worse he becomes.
>>145518477this feels like an edit from 2005 like that shitty "mugga" meme, but i know it was an alternate take back when they did this event the first time
>>145531887Anon, there is nothing more caustic, more soul killing to a male character’s image than the dreaded bisexuality.
>>145531887Thing is, you have need for Tim anymore because Damian exists.
>>145531462>BatKebab
It always comes back to the same subject and then comes back in a circle.
>>145532281Your first rodeo here?
>be Gothamite>read morning newspaper>Joker stealing babies from their cribs and cannibalising them outside local nunnery>again>drive to work>car pileup from Joker car-chase, mangled bodies strewn everywhere>arrive late>office building and everyone inside now fiery rubble>part of neighbourhood Joker blew up to draw smiley face on Gotham map>guess I'm back on welfare again>return home to eat my dinner>no food on table just wife dangling from a rope>Joker called our phone number and convinced her to kill herself while I was at work (Batman Confidential #22)>walk to kitchen to get glass of water>water is green and burns through cup, Joker poisoned the reservoir again>watch news while waiting for son to come back from highschool>Joker shot up the entire place>call youngest 6-year old daughter downstairs>try to hold in vomit as I see her permanently, horrifically, irreparably disfigured face from joker attack - just as many gotham youths have (The Joker 80th Anniversary 100-Page Super Spectacular)>take her out for stroll on the docks>The Joker walks up to us and shoots her in the forehead>little girl brains all over my suit>give the clown a light shove in retaliation>suddenly hear "NOOOOOOOOOOOO!" from somewhere to my right>Batarang sails through the air and slices my throat instantly>I collapse and begin bleeding from the jugular>die happy knowing that I'm still freer than Metropocommunists
>>145529751Bro, they got scared with "Batman Returns" having promo Happy Meal Toys. Batman just getting DARK and not directly killing people makes people shit their drawers.
>>145521866What comic is this from?
>>145531625>The only way to unfuck Jason's situation involves letting him "win"I'd make it a no-win situation for them. Jason only has a gun, and has less than a split second to save Bruce. Shoots Joker in front of the whole city, who rally behind him when Batman begins to lash out. Jason, wanting to patch things up with Bruce, gives himself up to the law. The DA goes easy on him because he killed the fucking Joker, though homicide charges are still filed. Jury finds him Not Guilty, and Red Hood is Gotham's most popular lethal hero, when what Jason wants to do most is put away his guns and reconcile with Batman, who is still keeping him at arms length. Meanwhile, Gotham is embracing Red Hood and turning on Batman, even the cops and politicians, some of whom see Red Hood as a 2nd Amendment statement. Have the status quo on who is hero and outcast be flipped while the Joker is on ice until editorial inevitably brings him back. Jason would still be Punisher-lite, but there are several narrative and character arcs that can be taken from there.
>>145534260Yeah, that'd be one option, but again that would require them allow even the slightest serious implication that Batman's methods are, not even "flawed" but might be "not universally perfect" or the like. The only way they would do anything like this would be to have Red Hood go on a rampage as a parody of the punisher being worshipped by gotham for a bit before turning insanely extreme in his methods before Bruce beats him most of the way to death and it turns out the Joker planned it all and didn't actually die or injected Jason with Super Smilex to turn him into a mental clone of the Joker to bring him back as his henchman or some shit.Even the much meme'd upon "Just have Jason cuck the Joker" is almost more likely and it still wouldn't be allowed to happen, not because it's too absurd or any bullshit like that, but because it would involve implying the Joker could be even remotely handled or inconvenienced by anyone other than Bruce in any way by suggesting that he can't just infinitely pull resources from his ass because he just can and actually has to get goons and supplies from people who think he's a good investment in the criminal underworld. Joker just summons equipment and henchmen out of his fucking ass and don't you dare suggest otherwise essentially.
How did we arrive at the idea that the punisher is "edgy" and not just the only normal fucking person. Cops kill people all the time, so do civilians when acting in self-defense, so does our army. It's been that way since humans were around. Do the people that think he's 'controversial' have a problem with all that? Like it's such an utterly alien phenomena.
>>145532281Welcome to the twilight zone, anon.
>>145511987Batman is ultimately in the right to save Joker here. Not only was Jason off the deep end that he compromised his morals and betrayed Batman and is fine with killing without remorse, but he was going to murder a mentally ill man who needs help and to be locked up.Batman did the morally and ethically good thing as a person, human to human. It's not pragmatic but Batman has always been about doing his best to save people.
>>145518723Police are not the law, dipshit.
>>145511987It's against Batman's killing codeJason should have known better baka
>>145534464>but again that would require them allow even the slightest serious implication that Batman's methods are, not even "flawed" but might be "not universally perfect" or the like.Feels like a broken record when it comes to the bat-books. Really wish they'd find a more interesting angle for bat-family drama. >The only way they would do anything like this would be to have Red Hood go on a rampage as a parody of the punisher being worshipped by gotham for a bit before turning insanely extreme in his methods before Bruce beats him most of the way to death Perhaps. Though does Jason seem like the type to let a bit of hero worship go to his head? It'd be more interesting if he was even more reluctant to draw his guns after killing Joker, but being tempted by the cops and citizenry who want so badly for him to be that Punisher figure. He could disable a villain with a well placed, but less than lethal shot, the crowd calling for Jason to finish him off even as the cops pack the bad guy away in an ambulance. Other citizens could take up guns, and Bruce could blame Jason for a shop keeper killing a small time gang banger after the Red Hood was cited as an inspiration, widening the rift between them even as Jason's popularity grows. Jason doesn't have to go straight from 0-60 in his methods for Batman to fight him. And if we MUST bring the Joker back so soon, I'm more of the notion for Jason to leave Gotham and the Red Hood for a bit to get his head straight, only for someone more lethal to take up the mantle. Who, surprise surprise, is backed by the Joker looking to reclaim the Red Hood through his proxy. So upon his return, Jason not only has to face Batman, but an usurper whose lethality has won him the support of the city in Jason's absence, with the Joker lurking in the shadows as always. But this is just me spit-balling.
>>145534967Lame. Jason should be executing people in the streets.
>>145527912Unironically this is the modern explanation
I'm surprised they haven't turned Jason into a "right-wing" strawman by having him execute a thinly veiled sendup of George Floyd or Trayvon Martin.
>>145535803That'd probably be a writer who'd have him harm Duke just to jab at the "Duke is Jason's Robin" types who want them to be frequent besties, and it'd generate all the angry thrashing.
>>145535854Harvey Bullock kneeling on Duke's neck dot jpeg
>>145535803Will never happen because fan girls love Jason and more to the point, in the 2010s, you had Scott Lobdell writing Jason and basically wanting to turn Jason into a ninja dude with a lot of secret society shit that he kept forcing into all of the Jason books during N52 inbetween the "Dark Trinity stuff with Artemis and Bizarro that was editorially mandated on him. And the Batman writers basically sanded off the edges for the sake of having him be the "bad boy Robin" because that sells merch to horny fangirls.
>>145535444He used to but now he can’t because of woke
>>145536445DC should take a cue from Marvel and give Jason his own MAX series.
>>145535803Jason is their black member of the group,
>>145531601There have been a number of good Batman and bat-adjacent comics published between 2006 and 2024 so it's definitely a character problem if there's not a single one for this one character.>>145535803It was pretty funny how Wild Dog's creator was seething how Azz wrote him as a January 6ther even though in the original comics his enemies were radical leftwingers. Jason's framing of it shows he's not on his side though.
>>145537185>There have been a number of good Batman and bat-adjacent comics published between 2006 and 2024Dwarfed by the shit ones.
>>145531474Retarded take, DiDio. But that’s what we like about you.
>>145537185People are complicated. I'm the furthest thing from a Republican yet I still think gun rights need to be better protected so people can defend themselves. I even watched the Rittenhouse videos and came to the conclusion that he had extraordinary discipline considering how far things had gotten and only ever acted in self-defense.
>>145527919Didio went on a 15 year campaign to fuck over Nightwing to feed his book, city, team, and friends to Red Hood.
>>145537568Ehhhh, Dick is boring.
>>145511987if you kill a killer the number of killers remains the same but if you kill an innocent then there's no problem
>>145537172How
>>145537252Sturgeon's Law in effect. But there isn't even any 10% for Jason.>>145537277Didio was the guy who wanted Dick to die in Infinite Crisis so he could be replaced by edgy knife-wielding Jason Todd Nightwing. Geoff Johns had to beg him to change his mind and offered up Kon-El in his stead for a near-last-minute switcheroo, which pissed off Bruce Jones who turned his run into a shitpost.
batman is a faggot that likes to get his dick wrapped up in clown assit's that simple
>>145511987Why didn’t he offer to buy him lunch or something chill instead. Take him to a game I dunno. Killing him to stop him seems a bit extreme.
Jason's plan was bad. He should have forced Batman to shove the Joker's entire chin up his ass. Imagine it. The Batman with The Joker's chin up his ass.
>>145521976Why doesn't Batman think about pineapples while lubing up his bare ass and sliding around on Commissioner Gordon's office floor?
>>145538917You're so close to getting it
>>145531462who cummed in his burrito?
>>145532703top kek
>>145532703>Jason is the bad guy for saying this is bad for Gotham
>>145519641Didn't they have other comics coming out at the same time that were after she came back to life? Really killed any impact this had.
why the fuck DC editors love this shitty costume so much?
>>145540685What the fuck
>>145540685At least he doesn’t have the dopey hood and half mask on. He looks sort of fine I guess. Miss the jacket miss the helmet but an improvement.
Based Japan delivering a cool Jasonhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etyTNB5_9Vc
>>145541626We’re Berserk now
>>145540685It proves at least that DC didn't forget about him so he might actually get something besides the upcoming Robin series. >>145541626I was expecting to see Jason in the movie and I'm glad I wasn't wrong. I hope certain people actually realize how being in the Batfamily is beneficial for Jason.
>>145541994It's the most limiting thing especially if he's still using guns. Jason's Red Hood should be completely separated from the Batfamily & their constant ever growing bloated members.
>>145541994Eh, I wouldn't have high hopes, they keep putting him on variant covers and then he doesn't show on the issue.What upcoming Robin series?
>>145542241You people have such a boring and edgy take.
>>145541994I'm convinced that these so called fans don't actually like Jason. Imagine complaining about Jason getting stuff.
>>145542291That's not the same thing as WF cover which was a silly fun cover. This cover is clearly about characters having upcoming books since half of them are already have their books announced.
>>145542417I was talking of the Absolute Power cover or him being on the cover of the Infinite Frontier One-shot.>>145542241The guns were never a problem during the N52, it was until some retarded suit decided they couldn't sell toys with guns that it became an issue.
>>145542469>until some retarded suit decided they couldn't sell toys with guns that it became an issue.Welcome to McFarlane-Mart. You've got issues, we've got guns.
>>145541994Is it bad that the Robin thing is the thing I’m most looking forward to? What if they remember he had a kind well-meaning personality outside of just being the reckless retard one?
>>145542316Said the retard who likes crowbar and stupid MK suit.
Why doesn’t he have a designated girl(s) like the others do? Is he gay?
>>145545263Artemis, Rose, sometimes Steph
>>145545263Pre-Crisis had Rena, but it's best they don't reintroduce her and ruin that
>>145545263According to Winick, yes, he is gay.
>>145511987I guess we're waiting until October for news?
>>145536310Being fair, the shit with Artemis and Bizarro was cool as fuck so if it was editorially mandated DC should do more of that.
>>145511987because he loves the joker more than jason
>>145549100Lobdell caught himself writing a coherent story. Had to put an end to that shit fast.
>>145511987Man the people they let touch theor beloved characters is crazy.
>>145512310Even ignoring the retardation of killing your adoptive son to save a mass murderer, sometimes vigilante killings are the lesser evil. Not ideal, but better than the alternative.
>>145541994There’s no benefit for Jason being in the Batfamily. It only limits his growth and unique identity.
>>145553294>There’s no benefit for Jason being in the Batfamily.Being in it sure, but running into them? That makes sense
