Is another Watchmen-level comic possible from the big two?A work of passion that is incredibly ambitious and impactful, as accessible as it is complex?We've seen many half-hearted attempts and supposed rebuttals, but nothing equal or better from the big two.
>>146835048no
>>146835048Yes, but it'd likely be coming from some place unexpected
Absolutely notMarvel and DC don't exist to sell comic books anymore and would have no reason to make a comic book that really blows people away
>>146836131My money is on a well-read Japanese artist, or writer/artist team, that does some kind of book for Marvel or DC when they get really desperate and it kicks the shit out of anything else at the time.
>>146835048probably not. any writer or cartoonist worth their salt are smart to the publisher's bullshit, they'll never put the amount of effort into something unless their ass is covered
>>146837150Doubt it, while they're perfectly enjoyable, most JP creators who do big two work aren't really ambitious and mostly care about the media adaptations over the comics.
>>146835048Probably not. In the word of private equity giants it’s hard to get anything groundbreaking through. People have ideas of course, but without the medium no one has any way to see them.
>>146835048No.It's over...
>>146835999FPBP>Big twoThey sell less than schoolastic and manga in general. They're the big nothing now.
>>146837233You mean without the compensation and honoring the artist.
>>146838558But Marvel is Schoolastic.
>>146835048>A work of passion that is incredibly ambitious and impactful, as accessible as it is complexThe cultish worship for this comic has honestly always scared me a little
>>146835048>Big twoNo. But Smile was already that for comics in general.
>>146838662It is a little bit like Tolkien fans. They over do the praise.
>>146838662>>146838772It's just a very good comic book. What's cultist or worshipful about any of that?
>>146838685How ambitious and complex is Smile?
>>146835048>Is another Watchmen-level comic possible from the big two?No, and it wasn't possible very shortly after the original. After everyone saw how DC fucked over Moore and co on other books by keeping them in print so they'd never get rights/residuals. Nobody with a brain would give their best ideas away as a work for hire drone. Why do you think Invincible was an Image original and not pitched as a Superman elseworlds story?
>>146839110>Why do you think Invincible was an Image original and not pitched as a Superman elseworlds story?Was that the original plan?
>>146837232Agreed. It would have to be some kind of Japanese Invasion thing, but then why would they not just stick with making manga?
>>146837150
>>146835048Watchmen sucks.Deal with it.
>>146838772Tolkien deserves it. Watchmen does not.
>>146839666Fitting trips, but this manga sucked really hard.
>>146837150you posting PLUTO already posted something on the level of it.
>>146840056>from the big two
>>146839937According to /a/, LOTR is worse than One Piece, so no, he doesn't.
>>146835048No, retard.
>>146840518>According to /a/the greasy troglodytic wetbacks which infest the shonen generals of /a/ are not representative of the rest of the board.
>>146841578It was not a shonen general, but a thread about literature and manga.
>>146835048No, the next comic like that will probably have a different solution to distribution. The artist who commits it isn’t going to work with the big two.
>>146842105Than god, LotR is as much literature as Harry Potter.
>>146835048Already did
that would require them hiring writers who read anything besides genre-slop.
>>146842810With what?
>>146835048Nope
>>146835048Creators trying to make the next big X (popular thing aready exist) is always a mistake. You are chasing the past, or an idea of the past, instead of building the future.
>>146837150>>146839609You have too much faith in the Japanese. Stop being a weeb.
>>146840518/a/ has even worse taste than /co/, so that's really an argument in Tolkien's favor.
>>146842680You're an idiot.
>>146837233>>146838572delusional
>>146838685WRONG
>>146839110delusional revisionist nonsense
>>146842817you are a giant faggot
>>146842810The only people saying this are superfags and Johnsfags, both with room temp IQs.
>>146845405It's a bit of an exaggeration but DC did lose out on a lot of potential creatives because of shit like this but I'd place more blame on them changing up Vertigo so it became kind of a shitty deal when compared to competitors like Image. DC and Marvel are real shitty when it comes to benefits unless they're trying to court you specifically.
>>146845413Is he wrong? One of the main reason capeshit is in the state it's currently in is because most of the writers are people that have only read capeshit. It's like this in a ton of creative industries these days, the current crop of creators are creatively inbred and haven't learned the fundamentals of their trade or diversified their inspirations.
>>146846398>One of the main reason capeshit is in the state it's currently in is because most of the writers are people that have only read capeshitone of the biggest problems with cape comics is that authors DON'T want them to be cape comics. They want sitcoms and crime dramas and countless prestige tv facsimiles, not superhero comics.capeshit was in better hands when massive capeshit fanboys were running it. Look at Roy Thomas or Jim Shooter. They're massive fanboys.
>>146835048Nobody is going to do their passion project at one of the Big Two when they can do it as an indie project and make actual money
>>146844631They're generally more passion-driven, even if most of their output still sucks.
>>146835048Obviously Unstoppable Squirrel Girl.Before that, Bendis' Ultimate Spider-ManCurrently Momoko's Ultimate X-Men seems to the book that's going to baby's first comic to the next crop of casuals.
>>146847888Wasted trips.
>>146835048Fuck off.
>>146835048>Is another Watchmen-level comic possible from the big two?Possible? Anon, it's already happening.
>>146837150Name one manga on the level of watchmenI'll wait
>>146849603Kurodesh No Bico Mang
>>146849547
>>146835048>Is another Watchmen-level comic possible from the big two?no
>>146835048was Watchmen highly regarded as groundbreaking when it came out? or did that come later?
>>146851966>was Watchmen highly regarded as groundbreaking when it came out?Yes. The enthusiasm for it spilled over from fandom and entered the mainstream.
>>146835048>Is it possible?Sure.>Is it going to happen?Unlikely.>Why?Ideology has infected all levels of the comic book industry. Considering the fact that the majority of people took the wrong lessons from Watchmen, I'd be shocked if someone managed to recreate the quality level of Watchmen.
>>146845405>delusional revisionist nonsenseAre you really so retarded that you don't think Marvel and DC suffered a brain drain by creatives going to work at Image and actually making money and keeping their work? Who the fuck would bust their ass to make mcdonalds money when they could build their own burger empire? You're going to sweat and work your ass off anyway. Why line Marvel's pockets when you could keep your money and your IP? Don't act retarded and pretend nobody took that deal. How many What If/Elseworlds stories had the serial numbers filed off and were made into original IPs instead? Spawn could easily have been a spider-man character. So could half a dozen Image/Cliffhanger/Boom/Dynamite books. You're lying if you think otherwise.
>>146835048It wouldn't be from them but some independent webcomic or small publisher probably. The corporatization of the industry drowns out creativity. On the off note, I'd like to see someone adapt Doomsday Clock for a movie or two.
>>146849547DC is saved
>>146852881Spawn was Ghost Rider's chains, Dr. Stranger's cape, and Venom's symbiote. But Todd turned it into the biggest independent comic book of the '90s.
>>146854095Exactly, and he could have easily made it a Marvel book and made no fucking money from it.
>>146849603Honesty FMA in terms of writing. Biscuit hammer too maybe, though I prefer the art in watchmen over them both
>>146854847No way.
>>146849603It's not possible because the format, process, and culture are so different.
>>146846398Most modern American comics writers don't read comics at all. Geoff Johns clearly only cares about superhero comics and his output is (mostly) fine, so clearly writers like him are not the problem.
>>146849603What does that mean? There aren't many "deconstructions" in manga format. If you mean good art + writing then Yokohama Kaidashi Kikou, Haruka na Machi e, Gekiga Hyouryuu, Opus and Dousei Jidai come to mind but Idk there are probably more. I know more about euro comics then manga.
>>146846463This poster gets it.
>>146846690If you seriously think anyone is making MORE money from indie comics then you are clueless about how the comics business works.
>>146849547stop being a faggot
>>146851966It was critically acclaimed when it came out. It wasn't topping the sales charts and no one was calling it the best comic ever. Its current reputation came later. I'd say the 90s was when people first started calling it the best comic ever made.>>146852014False. It was known even at the time for only appealing to the ultra die hard enthusiast fans, e.g. the types that went to their local comic shop every week.
>>146852611Watchmen's not good.
>>146835048No, mostly because everyone keeps trying to ape Watchman instead of making a good story.
>>146852881How delusional are you that you think Image pays BETTER than Marvel or DC? Image doesn't necessarily pay AT ALL.As for "keeping their work": You're saying this about a company that LITERALLY exists ONLY for writers to sell their IPs to corporations.Again, you are beyond delusional.
>>146854703Todd was literally a millionaire from his time at Marvel.You know NOTHING about the comics business.
>>146853598what a faggot
>>146856732There aren't many "deconstructions" in American comics either. You fags apparently think that anything written by a Brit is automatically a "deconstruction".
>>146856844This. It's great.
>>146856805Anon you are a goddamn fucking retard if you think indies selling their rights to movies earns them less money than getting paid dirt on Big 2 books
>>146856853>How delusional are you that you think Image pays BETTER than Marvel or DC?It lets you keep your IP to sell>As for "keeping their work": You're saying this about a company that LITERALLY exists ONLY for writers to sell their IPs to corporations.Yes exactly. It's almost like you're beginning to understand. You make a good comic, it becomes popular, you sell shit and make money. Congrats, you understand why Todd McFarlane is a millionaire and Kirby died a wageslave. >>146856861Wrong. He made some money but he leveraged everything he had selling figures and licensing deals after that.
>>146842810This. Is really underrated and overhated.
>>146856844True, it isnt. It's the best.>>146856812Stop being joyless.
>>146857073That doesn't make millions, dude. They pay a pittance compared to what they spend on the movie. Like 0.1% (or less) of the budget goes into buying the rights. A steady job for Marvel or DC will earn them more money in the long run.
>>146857287NO ONE is getting rich selling IPs to hollywood.And Todd made millions working for Marvel.You don't know what you're talking about.
>>146857882stop being an apologist for garbage
>>146858515established creators earn more through Image and book publishers
>>146858537
>>146858560Not usually, no.These guys are not making what you think they are.
>>146858515HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>146858570you've got your Remenders, Vaughans, Millars, Kirkmans, Tynions, Higgingses, Fractions and so ons and so ons making big money
>>146835048No
>>146835048Deniz Camp's 20th Century Men is the Watchmen of the 2020s
>>146860082>from the big twoAlso, it's not as good or big as Watchmen.Do you believe Camp has it in him to make something that IS with Marvel or DC? His Ultimates run so far is not exactly promising.
>>146856871Exactly.
>>146858634are they really
>>146858634>>146861186Honestly i cant think they make more money as any one-man-company. I would guess only Kirkmand and Millar are the big money maker in this list.
>>146856654>Geoff Johns clearly only cares about superhero comics and his output is (mostly) finelmao
>>146861507What's so funny about that?
>>146836710I mean Watchman wasn't made to sell the way watchman did much to the detriment of it's author who was expecting to get the rights back after a year, instead of this clusterfuck where it's in perpetual print. What it takes is a passionate team who want to make something. The problem is that comics make even less money then they used to and everyone wants to be in TV writing. So all you get is bargain basement writers who think they're too good for comics.
>>146861439The people who sign on to image own all the characters. Even if it doesn't get movie or TV deals, they get a better cut and royalties. You don't get shit as a big 2 writer unless you are someone like bendis.
>>146862325That you think the retard that desperately wants to be Moore is a fine writer
>>146862471When he's not trying to be Moore, he's great.
>>146862417They own everything up right. Image only takes 15-20% from the sales of the collected edition.
>>146849603One Punch Man
>>146858528Kirkman is worth $60 million dollars. Kirby died pretty much broke. McFarlane made his money by getting the NHL deal after he spent his 3 million on baseballs. Yes he made 3 million doing comics but the money he made on toys far surpassed anything he did doing comics. Which he was only able to do with the money he made from Spawn. Thanks for playing.
>>146862417The only way to make money in comics is to own your characters. Which you won't do if you work for Marvel/DC. All the indie guys like TMNT or Jeff Smith are rich. Even fucking Dave Sim has a fat stack of cash and he got himself cancelled for wrongthink. They all make more money than jobbing artists shitting out 'Big 2" comics by tracing poser models and adding filters.
>>146860240Ultimates and Absolute Martian Manhunter possibly could. Ultimates is extremely well loved and AMM is about refugees and how they deal with being in a foreign space along with how white natives react to them despite being colonizers
>>146862417You get paid for the work that is done. They scam you for the rights.But Image is only a distributing service. More like Youtube.But thats not the topic. When you sign in for Image, you have to create the comic and pay Image for their service. You dont get paid but rely on the sales.The question is how good do they sell? Regarding that most series rarely go beyond 6 issues, i dont think that they sell that good for the mayority. Even most longer running series tend to go on hiatus.
>>146863468I think you have a good point. But do we talk about the 1% wo made it or talk in general?Before you think i am pro big 2, i agree with you that the chance to get rich with selfpublishing is muchnhigher.
>>146863565>you have to pay Image for their service.Untrue.
>>146863613You can correct me. But i understand it that they help you with finding a printer, distribution and other management stuff. And that is what you have to pay. Mostly through % of sales.
>>146860240Hell no.>>146863504Ultimates is trash.
>>146856844I reread what I typed. I never once said it was good. Only that nothing else has reached it's quality level.Which doesn't say that Watchmen is good, only that everything else is worse.
>>146864410holy based
uh... no
>>146846463What is a pure superhero comic?
>>146866682Pure shit.
>>146858634lol>>146861186Millar and Kirkman are the exceptions. Millar's had a bunch of hits and The Walking Dead COMICS used to sell so well that they've probably made millions for Kirkman.
>>146862417>they get a better cutDoesn't matter when the sales are so low. Most of them make next to nothing. A DC or Marvel comic offers a steady paycheck. A writer on 2 books or more at a time for DC or Marvel will make more in the long run than almost anyone for any indie could ever dream of, and that's not because DC or Marvel pay well, but because the indies pay THAT badly.
>>146864410Worst post in the thread and that is really saying something.
>>146862471You're an idiot.
>>146863489This is objectively false.
>>146863504you sound like a fag
>>146863613It's not a charity, you dumb shit.
>>146849603Cheat Slayer.
>>146847888Nobody reads Ultimate X-Men.
>>146847888There is no "casual" comic readership, you retard.
>>146838662>scared meSounds like a you problem, pussy
>>146867370false
>>146867956Wrong.
>>146867172I think when we talk about indy, some people assume they all are successfull like Kirkman or Todd.
>>146868207Yeah, this thread is full of idiots who think that indie comics are a free retirement package.
>>146835048You'll never get anything impactful/passionate out of the big two anymore because writers and artists don't want to give out their billion dollar ideas to an IP farm who won't even pay them royalties for their next big idea before it gets turned into a billion dollar movie
>>146867147>lolwhy are you laughing?
>>146868270>their billion dollar ideasNONE of the current crop HAVE any "billion dollar ideas" or even "million dollar ideas" or even "one cent ideas". NONE of them have ANY "ideas" that are worth ANYTHING.
>>146849603Berserk
>>146835048>Self-contained in a number of issues that's a reasonable read>Pundits don't need to dig through continuity to understand why the story is considered good>Comments equally on the predominant genre of American comics as well as real world issues>Works as enjoyable genre-fiction while also welcoming deeper readings on the textThere have been better comics than Watchmen, a few even by Moore, but it really is the perfect storm of a comic whose reception I don't think will ever be replicated. It's like how The Great Gatsby isn't the best piece of American literature, but it was In the right place, at the right length, about the right subject, that it got and continues to get a level of scrutiny that keeps it from leaving the cultural conscience.
>>146844631Seriously, I don't get the boner people have for manga. The best written Western comics easily outpace most of the best written manga.
>>146868741>from the big two
>>146869598The art.
>>146835048probably notthe mid 80s were a special time for comics
>>146862972Darkseid War was great?
>>146870526When he said not trying to be Moore, he meant not trying to a writer.
>>146869598They're generally good at the storytelling part of comics, and artwise are both meticulous and efficient. Sure, the writing is often not very good, and part of it can be blamed on the translation, but the fact that their baseline is still quite effective means there is much more available to read. It's not like with comics where there's only a handful that do it right.
>>146867330It's not in trades yet. >>146867370People who wait for trades are the casual comic audience. Wednesday Warriors and speculators are the hardcore comic fans.
>>146868247Kinda. We should remind them that there are probably 4 categories.Work-for-Hire Superstar/house-artistWork-for-Hire fill im artistIndependence founded their own companyIndependence Lonestar
>>146868270>>146868371I agree with both of you. Because the artists and writers think so, but the mayority of these creatives have not really good ideas.The bad monetarisation drove the really creative people away.
>>146868372Berserk falls off hard during Conviction and never recovers.
>>146868741>There have been better comics than WatchmenFrom Marvel and DC? Name them.
>>146869598And the best written manga easily outpace most of the best written comics.
>>146873312You just said the opposite of what that anon said.
>>146873914You just stated what that anon did.
