How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre? Japan found the perfect formula for teen boys and nobody has tried to replicate it. The west often parodies it, but no one's made an earnest attempt at it.And no, superheroes aren't it. The similarities between the battle shonen and superhero genres are surface level at best. They're actually extremely different.
>>147126030Daima is flopping tough
>>147126030It would have to be done by young, fresh talent with anlot of enthusiasm, the type of person the comics industry is not willing to pay well. They don't want to deal with superstar artists.
>>147126030Westoids can't compete>>147126048Dafuq is daima
>>147126136Baby Looney Tunes but Dragon Ball Z
>>147126030Angry parents and politicians
>>147126153Imagine comparing the masterpiece that is baby looney tunes to daima
>>147126030>How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre?Not brown enough (yet)
>>147126153Story by: Toriyama
>>147126030Okay fine you can get the shonen cartoon you want the MC is a psycho troon though
>>147126030>How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre?
>>147126030Skibidi Toilet
>>147126030The west thinks boys want to watch brown trannies fighting
>>147126030It's based on kung fu stories at heart, and the west just likes to pretend it's somehow above all of the cliches in that particular genre
>>147126030They did it's called Cobra Kai
>>147126030The west shouldn’t be trying to be anime period. They should focus on their own styles and genres.
Anime fans just want anime. I don't get why no one comprehends this. They don't trust media outside of Japan in general, especially not modern American made media.
>>147126030Because they figured out simply importing it worked out fine.
>>147126215Kys
>>147126215Qrd?
>>147126279Don't ask questions if you're gonna throw tantrums over the answer.
>>147126326The /lgbt/ board is the other way
>>147126269Ironic because anime is itself heavily inspired by western animation
>>147126030Avatar the Last Air Bender exists for this reason you dumbass bitch.
>>147126030Because it's fucking retarded and boring.
>>147126425Sokka isn't even allowed to use his sword, Avatar is still very much a kids show, not a show for teens like shonen
>>147126435Shonen is for kids.
>>147126030It's a lot simpler than it seems, anon:There isn't any kabuki influence in western writing.Japanese plays and animations are generally in the style of Kabuki Theater, complete with stock characters and long internal monologues that happen in frozen time during exciting moments.You can't properly mimic the pacing and style of anime without lots of exposure to Kabuki, which the west doesn't have. IT why French faux-anime always feels so off.
>>147126433Then stop with the faggy anime references will you
>>147126241>Anime is based on kung fu....motherfucker are borders a joke to you Kung Fu is chinese
>>147126449I could do without the kabuki dogshit, honestly.
>>147126441No, that's kodomoKodomo - For childrenShonen - For teen boysShojo - For teen girlsSeinen - For adult menJosei - For adult womenThat is how anime and manga divide themselves
>>147126293Black girl becomes a wrestler.Would hug.
>>147126449I thought it was because most anime is adapted from manga
>>147126351You would know, being a regular user of it.
>>147126494>>147126505flop
>>147126030Pokemon killed Western Animation
>>147126528Pokemon killed civilization
>>147126502Which are heavily influenced by Kabuki and noh/kyogenMeanwhile the west is influenced by its own literary and theatrical history
>>147126293Basically Invincible Fight girl is a somewhat attempt to make a anime inspired work but for the western audience, but it REALLY feels way too anime inspired in the sense of using a lot of stuff you would see in anime like Internal Monologues, weird fight moves, anime sunglasses, expressions, etc, and the people even so far as to even use FUCKING DRAGON BALL SFXIt’s something, and it’s not good
>>147126548It's alright, it's just trying to mimic pacing and tropes it doesn't quite understand
>>147126484Seinen is for teen boys. Kodomo is for toddlers.
>>147126465"Martial Arts" then. Happy, you baby?
>>147126575Most publications consider Shonen to be the 12-18 demographic, and Seinen to be the 18-40 one
>>147126630That's crazy. No way is something like Berserk, Vinland, or Vagabond for grown men.
They have tried to do so. This space is taken over by superhero cartoons in the west. We do have shows like ATLA, TMNT 2003, Owl House, She-Ra that are attempts. ATLA being the most successful. One of the issues the west has is its very difficult for a show to have action with serialized stories that aren't tied to big franchise. Japan is quite good at pumping out originals that gain followings in a way that the west is not. I'm very impressed at how they're able to end animes and have new popular animes take their place.
>>147126660How are they not? Target audience has nothing to do with content. Stuff like K-On and Bocchi the Rock are also Seinen
>>147126660they're relatively juvenile and simplistically written but so are cop shows aimed at boomers. Most people aren't very bright or want complicated media, and at least those are drawn well.
Would you consider shows like Gargoyles, Reboot, Code Lyoko, Jackie Chan Adventures to be close to battle shonen?
>>147126727Real life is complicated enough, people watch shows to escape that complexity Has nothing to do with being bright or not
>>147126888ThisssswestKEKS can't compete
>>147126976People don't want reality in their entertainment, the point of fiction is to escape
>>147126030Because the genre sucks cock.
>>147126269AR MUS ROOK SAME
>>147126738I think Teen Titans is the closest, it even has an anime opening
>>147126989There is cherry picked, there's plenty of anime with ugly art
>>147127004>People don't want reality in their entertainmentI think that's too reductive. ALTA is constantly in discourse for best animation and part of that is for how it touches on real world themes. If I had a dollar for every comment that claimed tears from Leaves From the Vine, I'd have enough money to buy this site just to shitpost on it. But Leaves From the Vine can only happen behind the discussion of war and trying to find some sort of closure. An episode Katara got to get to herself. Bitching about Teen Titans Go is basically a meme but it's a meme rooted in very real feelings about the change in tone. Because Teen Titans touched on some heavy themes too. You don't need to turn The Clone Wars into Game of Thrones but to say people want no reality at all? You're gonna have to elaborate on that.
>>147126030the west had a demi-god with glowing yellow hair throw back nuclear missiles at a gun-dragon before "battle shonen" existed.also yes, "battle shonen" came from superhero stories, with the same tropes like superpowers clashing against each other, arguing about morality and philosophy while fighting, etc..
Cartoons are for girls and faggots now
>>147127025A genre can't suck. All genres have good and bad works in them.
>>147126202Sucks to disrespect his swan song, but it really is a meandering convoluted waste of time, no way around the truth
>>147127092>now
>>147127075Yes, in a historical sense. We've had that. OP means more on why the modern battle shonen (DBZ, Naruto, Bleach, Demon Slayer, etc) do not have modern western equivalents.
How would (You) make a "shonen cartoon"?
>>147126622No because you're still wrongKung Fu movies (or "martial arts" movies) are a historically recent hong kong invention. They're completely removed from the influences of japanese storytelling
>>147126030dbz honestly has no equal, in general. there's nothing quite like it.
>>147126738Not really, those are in the classical western style of theater, all the way down to cheating the audience (meaning to turn your head towards the audience when the person you're talking to is not in their direction)
People have been pointing out this problem for years. Because the West doesn't really make anything for teens, they start getting into anime. They have no alternative.
>>147126225This. Skibidi is pure figthslop and powerlevel shit.
>>147126989Why is the west like this, though? Is it ugly = funny?
>>147127118We like old cartoons here /a/utist
>>147126030West want girl protagonists. Anything male or related to boys now is considered toxic.
>>147126989>>147127322You too. Slit your fucking throats. Live and on camera.
>>147127483Male characters have far more variety than females do
>>147127483Stop ban-evading fag
>>147126989Counterpoint
What. I thought capeshit is basically west's battle shonen.
>>147127579Capeshit and battle shonen have next to nothing in commonNot even theyir target demographics are the same; capeshit has been aimed at adults for a long time now
>>147127633but aren't they used to be pretty much the same thing?
>>147126511I accept your concession.
>>147126054>he type of person the comics industry is not willing to pay well.Do you really think mangakas are well paid?
>>147127322>>147127267>>147127322I like anime too but that comparison is ridiculous. The West can always draw attractive characters if they really wanted.I think you guys are too absorbed with wanting them to look "realistic" in which case, I'd argue Japan is less creative. Reusing the same high school girl body type is beyond generic and that's where the West tries playing with more shapes.
and not all shonen have lasting power. Drunk Bullet and Dark Delta got axed
>>147126030Capeshit doesn't need to copy DBZ because DBZ copied capeshit.And yes, I mean DBZ. Nobody watched Dragonball. Nobody gets excited about the Raditz saga. What do people like about DBZ? The beam struggles, the powerups, the enemies with new abilities who just cream the main cast, the training arc and building, the heroes getting new powers, the close fights where the lone protagonist finally overpowers the villain in a climatic clash. Take a look at the popular shonen titles. That's what DBZ did. That's what Bleach did. That's what Naruto did. That's what One Piece did. I'm sure that's basically what they all do outside the ones copying Pokemon. And what does that formula sound like? What sounds similar to the heroes getting their asses beat, going off to find new powers, then coming back to save the day in a close fight against the enemy that beat them previously?The Death of Superman?The Blackest Night?Crisis of Infinite Earths?Whatever the fuck the Thanos story arc was called?Yep. It looks like when they'd kind of ran out of ideas for DBZ and fans wanted more, they just took whatever the most common trope they could find as the stand-in to keep things going. And unsurprisingly, they took for western media because that was what got people hyped. Capeshit doesn't need to be more like shonen anime. Capeshit just need to be like capeshit.You could argue how well or how poorly it's been doing that lately, but what you are fundamentally asking is for more of the big capeshit events that get everybody excited. Which is fine, but don't pretend like anime is some golden standard just because they do it too.
>>147127815
>>147126030Justice League Unlimited and Teen Titans already did that.
>>147126030>How come the West never really-ENTER
Reading the replies ITT that think the only element of animation is the writing is hilariously telling You morons can't answer the question because you quite literally can't wrap your head around a foreign form of theater and all the little constructions that come with it that aren't on the page.
>>147126030>And no, superheroes aren't it.Yeah they areGoku and friends are literally superheroes, so are One Piece, Bleach, etc
>>147126989anime females are just copies of Jucika by the way.
>>147127815Oh boy, the Death Battle tourists are not going to like this TRVKE
>>147126989Both are hot, that Xitter user should kill themselves
>>147127142word-for-word copy what teen titans did but cut back a bit on the slice-of-life elements.
>>147127142trace
samurai jacklast airbendersteven universe i think counts tooand those are just the good ones
>>147126465are you seriously implying Japanese media weren't influenced by China? Dragon Ball literally started as an adaptation of a Chinese story.
>>147127884Its especially funny that people try and deny this when the Japanese just call them super heroes.
>>147127815The one time Dragon Ball ACTUALLY copied capeshit, with Gohan becoming a superhero and going to high school, it was quickly abandoned.
>>147127651NoShonen protagonists don't fight petty criminals or hang out in the Hall of Justice
>>147128050You forgot when Toriyama decided to copy Superman's origin in DB Minus.
>>147126202Toriyama was never good. His editors are the entire reason DBZ wasn't retarded toddler shit from the getgo
>>147126465also Karate directly came from Chinese martial arts, weeb.
>>147126030>How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre?But we do have that, its called Wrestling
>>147128050>Gohan becoming a superheroThat was copying Super Sentai. Have you ever seen capeshit superheroes jumping in the middle of the street, doing poses, and then naming attacks as they did punches and jump kicks? That is such a Super Sentai/Power Ranger/Kamen Rider thing that it's painfully obvious.Although as >>147128074 points out, Toriyama also just used a Superman expy as a joke in his comics as well.
>>147128081Toriyama is a comedy writer, look at his non-Dragon Ball worksSerious storylines are not his strength
>>147128016>>147128085>are you saying chinese media didn't influence japanese media!?No, I'm saying Hong Kong Kung Fu films have almost nothing to do with anime.Because they fucking don't.
>>147126030American writers do not have the patience to write and draw and anime long stories like Dragon Ball and One Piece which not only features the main characters developing but aging as well and interacting with a majority of the world established and introduced throughout the series run time
>>147128214And the subplot about the grouchy love interest trying to find out our protagonist's (who is a nerd she doesn't take seriously) secret identity doesn't sound familiar; at all?
>>147128295>One Piece>main characters developingRETARDffy & his crew have not only stagnated after joining the crew, but they've REGRESSED into stereotypes in the new world, I hate One Piece because of this I cant stand the Straw Hats I wish they all were raped & killed
>>147128214> Have you ever seen capeshit superheroes jumping in the middle of the street, doing poses, and then naming attacks as they did punches and jump kicks?i'm not a capeshitist, but didn't superheroes name their attacks too?>>147128295>One Piecei like how weebs always fail to mention that the main character's ability is literally just a direct copy of a western superpower. it's like they think Japan exists in an isolated bubble where they don't experience anything foreign and therefore everything they ever do is original thought.
>>147126030>no one's made an earnest attempt there's your problem. teenage boys have been treated as a radioactive demo amidst most forms of entertainment for years; they're to be corrected and talked down to rather than have anything actually made for them. current entertainment establishments would make any earnest attempt at a "battle shonen" impossible >>147126528the resentment towards anime has always been really funny to me, you've got people reviving WW2 era jap racism even now just to trash it because their shitty writer cartoon or lame comic pales in comparison to even a mediocre, boring anime/manga
>>147128501Japanese is not a race, weeb, no matter how you want to worship them as a superior species.
>>147128501>teenage boys have been treated as a radioactive demo amidst most forms of entertainment for years; they're to be corrected and talked down to rather than have anything actually made for themYou'd think they'd realize they're losing money this way
>>147128562anon, you can be racist to a specific ethnic group
>>147126293Woke SJW the musical with extra curry.
>>147126030that's what capeshit is, but they also wrote bad stories to go along with the bad fights. Also once a month schedule and less martial arts culture meant less focus on fights in general.
>>147128661Capeshit and battle shonen are fundamentally nothing alike.
>>147128684No, anon, you don't get it.Tropes and stock archetypes and pacing and format and the differences in the monomyth between cultures have zero effect on anything. All that matters is that someone can do something better than humans.Dragonball is exactly the same as Heracles which is exactly the same as Superman vs the KKK which is exactly the same as Romance of the Three Kingdoms which is exactly the same as the story of Jesus.There are NO differences between these works, none, because they all involve "superheroes."
>>147126030I'm surprised this thread hasn't been deleted, I don't know what's wrong with the jannies.
>>147126030>How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre?But battle shonen already exists, and not in small quantities. What you'te asking for is competition in an already dominated market.
I know if I ever tried to make a shonen battle series It'd probably get compared to Jojo a lot. The powers the characters get would pretty much have to be maxed-out from the start, because I really have no interest in seeing characters training and getting more powerful over time. I'd love to make a complex magic system, that would allow characters to be able to do things nearly as weird as Stands or Hunter x Hunter's Nen, but at the same time I'm really getting tired of every magic system in shonen battle manga these days pretty much giving seemingly every character a unique ability.>>147126888This is also true. Any time you try to create an art style that's appealing but still suitable for fight scenes you get branded as trying to look like anime.
>>147128716>Reed Richards getting elastic powers from space radiation or whatever and then fighting using these superpowers against others also using other superpowers is nothing like Luffy getting elastic powers from eating a fruit or whatever and then fighting using these superpowers against others also using other superpowers, racist!again, Dragon Ball started as an adaptation of a Chinese novel, and yet you would deny all similarities to it if the inspiration wasn't officially admitted.
>>147128866They both involve superpowers, but that is where the similarities begin and end
>>147126465He's not wrong, especially when talking about Dragon Ball. Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan movies were a big inspiration on Toriyama.
>>147128879
>>147128891
>>147128879Fist of the North Star was also influenced by Bruce Lee movies.>When I was young, I was a fan of manga, particularly those that were heavy on action. At the time, Bruce Lee was very popular, and I was really into his movies as an elementary/middle schooler. What was unfortunate was that Bruce Lee had already passed away by that time. His kind of over-the-top action is the kind of stuff that young kids go nuts for. Back then, when there was no way to record TV, I had to burn that image of Bruce Lee into my head, and I would try to put that image to paper later. Yusaku Matsuda was another actor I thought was cool at the time, but he stopped appearing on TV after running into some trouble, so I had to draw him from memory like Bruce Lee. And it was “Fist of the North Star” that gave me the chance to think about how I would draw a main character that takes inspiration from both Bruce Lee and Yusaku Matsuda.https://web.archive.org/web/20211215065113/https://www.otaquest.com/exile-sekai-interviews-tetsuo-hara/So yeah, kung fu movies were a big influence on shonen.
>>147128876and where do the differences begin and end? because that's what you failed to communicate.
>>147128879>>147128891https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ybdqg8bSJ0
>>147126030Okay guys I got a cool idea for a new and fresh battle shonen. Hear me out okay.So it's about a fucking idiot of a main protagonist, okay, real fucking retard but he's got a BIG heartAnd there is some majumbo kumbo dumbo chichung yongyeah energy that makes him seem like a big pussy but hes actually a big DICK.Hes followed by a chick, childhood friend, who may or not be into him, and shes got a massive ass and big tits, and shes got interesting powers but I hate writing womenSo his best friend is also his rival, and he is serious and edgy and may have committed some war crimes but hes oki doki nowtheres also some disposable characters here and there whatever- support cast!Now the main plot: they gotta find the gabladunbo jumbodonk, which is a very powerful gabadonkidonk that grants you three wishes, but to do that they gotta unlock their true potential, do some hardcore gabladimbo jimbohonk training and partake in a battle area with fellow gigajumbo majambosombos warriors. and our retarded protagonist will learn something, to be forgotten by S2
>>147128866>Dragon Ball started as an adaptation of a Chinese novel, and yet you would deny all similarities to it if the inspiration wasn't officially admitted.Dragon Ball stopped being based on Journey to the West almost immediately, and even then your dumb ass is missing the actual point that there is a whole fucking lot more to a theatrical production of any kind than the word on the page (which, again, is also dissimilar). Toriyama could've literally translated a copy of Journey to the West for a script and it still wouldn't be the same thing by virtue of all the other elements of culture/art/performance.The ways cultures tell stories do not pop out of nowhere, they are DEEPLY engrained.
>>147128962Japanese humor: females act retarded.... hahaha
>>147129013*cute females act retardedVery important difference, that's why it works better than that version of Squirrel Girl where she's ugly.
>>147129002ah, now i get you. so what you are saying is that Avatar and Teen Titans and Wakfu and such were not inspired by anime and have no relation to it.ok fine, you win, i admit that Japan has not influenced the West at all because story telling is deeply ingrained into cultures and whatever.
>>147129056>I am retarded, I have realized this, and it has enraged me.Neat!
>>147129065yes i realized that every "animesque" western cartoon is actually completely original in it's style and direction and everything, it just so happens that Japan is known for doing very similar things, i wonder how ATLA invented such a similar look to animes when nothing influences anything, probably just a coincidence.
>>147127713Point, but does manga have the same issue the US comics industry does in deliberately trying to prevent artists becoming stars due to a sort of generational trauma caused by the star artists of the early 90s leaving Marvel and forming Image.
>>147129091I don't know why you're arguing with yourself, but it's amusing seeing you break down.
>>147127815>And yes, I mean DBZ. Nobody watched Dragonball. Nobody gets excited about the Raditz saga.I read dragonball beginning to end and the saiyan saga was the absolute peak of the series.I'm not joking, that's my genuine opinion.
>>147129013>>147129025
>>147129111I agree mostly, but I'd say 23rd Budokai - Saiyan Saga - Namek was the best stretch of the series. Namek dragged on in places, but had some of the highest highs.
>>147128993Vegeta actually only survived due to fan popularity, he was intended to remain a villain and be killed by Goku. But he became unexpectedly popular so Toriyama came up with Frieza so that Vegeta could be spared and eventually redeemed.
>>147129109i'm not arguing, i accepted your enlightening wisdom, now i know that beanmouth calarts style also didn't spread due to cartoons influencing each other, it just so happens that they individually invent the same thing every time by coincidence.anime style also doesn't exist since animes are also not inspired by each other, it's just the deeply ingrained ancient prehistoric culture genetically compelling their styles to always turn out similar.
How can you say this when Invincible exists? It's basically modern day Dragon Ball z if it was written competently
>>147129181Anon your continued tantrum is like the sweetest honeyPlease do continue
>>147129164Cool. I still miss him, bros
>>147129109>>147129181Guys, it's a combination. Obviously people are influenced by works from different cultures (see >>147128879). But there is some degree of ingrained influence from the culture you grew up in as well when it comes to how things are done and how stories are told. An American take on a Japanese genre will almost inevitably have some American cultural influences that change how it comes out so it feels not quite like the Japanese one. Unless they're very intentionally trying to mimic, but even then it's unlikely to be a perfect imitation.
>>147126030Well Western Animation, as in Americans, are run but what we call idiots. Like despite literally having all the data in the world they don't understand what appeals to the demographics they're trying to sell to. Like it doesn't help that most "creatives" don't get it either but still.Also most "battle shonen" are based on manga so American comics being in the shitter also. Though that's mostly due to there being only two big comic companies and only one comic printer because this country is to fucking retarded to understand what a blatant monopoly is.
>>147128993This. A lot of Shonen is too samey. The "dumbass protagonist" thing is really fucking old and stale, same with the arrogant Shonen Rival.
>>147129208weird because your image kinda reminds me of a meme, but that's probably not the case and you invented it from nothingness just now because nothing can inspire anything and everything is 100% original at all times.
>>147126215Wresling series shouldn't be battle Shonen, they should be a wrestling series, which is different.
>>147129227>>147128993Tournament arcs rule btw
>>147128581They fear the potential backlash much more then the potential gains catering to teenage audience could bring, not helped by the infantilization of both teenagers and young adults by the current north american zeitgeist that ensures any homegrown attempts would be stamped out by moral busybodies, concerned parents, and out of touch executives before anything else, and even if they did, they'd have to compete with the East Asian Animation Companies that monopolized the demographic alreadyLastly, catering solely to a teen audience makes for less money, American teens are largely not working and thus they can't buy merchandise, of which anime already caters to and has been established with the ones who can and do, it'll cost more to make here since animators here would have to be payed better than they do in Asia, and alsoWhen you say teenagers you talking 13-15 or 15-18?Makes a big world of difference in terms of how marketing would be done and potential reactions from the busy bodies parents and execs
>>147129223No one ever said that battle shounen had no foreign inspirations whatsoever, that would be retarded on its face. Everything you've said is what I've said.I think you've lost the topic as badly as the anon throwing a tantrum.Superhero genre fiction is not the same thing as Battle Shounen or "eastern/western" versions of each other.
>>147129236is kinnikuman not battle shounen?
>>147129257>Everything you've said is what I've said.Correct, I'm trying to clarify it for the other anon.>I think you've lost the topic as badly as the anon throwing a tantrum.How is that possible if I'm saying what you've said?
>>147126449Don't forget the influence of Shinto and Buddhism, as well as Chinese culture as a whole, and Japanese mythology/history.
>>147129257>No one ever said that battle shounen had no foreign inspirations whatsoever,I mean >>147126465 and >>147128245 sure sounded like they were saying something close to that. Especially with >Hong Kong Kung Fu films have almost nothing to do with anime.
>>147129279>hey these posts that are completely separate from the long reply chain we're talking about almost sorta kinda say something similar!get the fuck gone
Why bother when it's cheaper to just dub?
>>147129286Alright, I'll stick to your reply chain>Capeshit and battle shonen are fundamentally nothing alike.This is also bullshit, because shonen has some capeshit in its dna too. Western comics did inspire manga too. Also, they have similarities. Similar target demographics and super powered heroes fighting, saying they're "fundamentally nothing alike" is an exaggeration. They have huge differences, but also important things in common. Hence why they're compared so often.
>>147129236>they should be a wrestling seriesThat's basically what Shonen is though, pro wrestling.
>>147129355
>>147129391https://www.tcj.com/tezuka-osamu-and-american-comics/>Speaking of myself, when it comes to comics, from 1947 or ’48, for the next fifteen or sixteen years, I was heavily influenced by American comics.
>>147126030Battle shonen can't be replicated in the west because of core differences in story structure. East Asian fiction is primarily built on kishotenketsu, which is divided into four parts>the introduction>development>THE CHANGE>sudden end (and here's some plot twists) that firmly connects everything togetherFour parts that are all "Order" with the third part displaying Chaos, and the final part being where emotional catharsis occurs, and with a changed Order. The reconciling of disconnected pieces. Mystery and unanswered questions as a driving force rather than a Vs at the helm.Western fiction operates on the Vs way of thinking. Man vs Self/Nature/Society/God. There must always be Adversary vs Intention driving this - the Antagonist and Protagonist as two opposing vessels of incompatible Ideas, and only one can win and be proven as Right. The knight must rescue the princess from the dragon and kill it to save the day. The unpopular girl must outdo and outperform the mean girls. The boxer must punch all his opponents to get the championship.
>>147129304This, 100 percent. But, also, you guys aren't thinking at all about what western, or at least American, television networks were buying until, really, the 2010s: there is no ongoing plot, any episode should be able to he shown,without context, in syndication. Most cartoons are getting bought in 20 or 30 episode chunks. The assumption was the cartoons were inherently disposable. By the time they realized kids would be down with more long running, sequential stories, it was easier to just license the years and years and years of anime that already existed that completely remake the system they already had going.
>>147129227How many battle shonen protagonists are actually "dumb" though?Even the originator of the trope, Goku, isn't so much dumb as he is naive and ignorant
>>147129446no he is retarded now, he wasnt originally, but he is now, clinically
>>147129457Yeah they really exaggerated the hell out of the characters starting with Super. It sometimes feels like the abridged versions of the characters.
>>147129415Consider this example, as something to chew on:A knight has to save a princess from a dragon.Western Structure:>A dragon kidnaps the princess, and the knight is tasked with saving her>The knight trains and journeys to become strong enough to save the princess, fighting many foes along the way>now fully prepared, the knight confronts and slays the dragon, returning home with the princessEastern Structure:>A princess lives in a kingdom, protected by her knight>One day, the princess is kidnapped by a dragon and taken to his castle, so the knight follows>The princess was in fact not kidnapped, but left by choice, and the dragon is protecting her>The knight confronts and kills the dragon, and returns home with the princess
>>147129521I'm not really getting it, second story just has a twist. Not like twists are exclusive to Eastern stories. What am I missing?Magic Knight Rayearth was awesome btw
>>147129559I think the point is the difference between overcoming a challenge/obstacle vs. the disruption of established order and resolving the disruption. Not sure I agree with it, but that's how I see the distinction anon is making.
>>147129521>>147129559So in the western structure, what we're left with is that the conclusion is a tightly knotted bow. The dragon will never come back, the princess is safe forever, and the knight can rest now. What you're missing is something I neglected to detail further, my apologies: the princess wanted to get away from the knight because he was hurting her.I should add an edit to the third part and fourth part, after rereading my notes on kishotenketsu>the princess is playing with the dragon, and smiling>the dragon is killed by the knight, and the princess is taken back home, crying all the while - she left to get away from himIn the eastern structure, we are left with a sense of open-endedness where the fourth part elaborates on the Change created by the third part, and now everything is properly connected.
Hot Take, a LOT of manga and anime stories were too melancholic and depressive but more sincere in their portrayal of progression before people like Go Nagai, Toriyama and Rumiko Takahashi introduced Irreverency and mood whiplashing for comedy inspired by Jackie Chan movies.
>>147129621Ah I see what you're getting at now.
>>147129595Exactly. Western:>A man is stranded in the woods>He fights to survive while at the mercy of nature>He escapes and returns to civilizationEastern:>A man is stranded in the woods>He fights to survive, all while at the mercy of nature>He bravely runs outside past the woods after several months of anguish, not caring where he's going or how he's feeling>He was in fact next to a rest stop the entire time, and everyone screams at his disheveled appearance
>>147129260No, for the simple reason it both predates Battle Shonen as a concept and lacks some key features. It's sort of like how pulp heroes like Shadow wouldn't count as a Superhero. Yes there are alot of elements that such a characters shares with Superheroes but also more aligns with tropes of pulp novels and radio dramas that evolved into capeshit.
>>147129713shadow mentioned!!!
>>147126030Cool Gohan
>>147129663Counterpoint: I read Dororo. That started way before there was the concept of a "Jackie Chan movie", hell before he even got work as a stuntman. So Akira, Rumiko, and Go didn't invent or even perform the original sin of sampling that shit. Jackie Chan's stunt comedy traced its roots back to all kinds of slapstick, but it's stuck with me he's been called "A real life loony tune". While there isn't drama in a Bugs Bunny cartoon, I can see taking inspiration from the tone shifting in one of those shorts feeding into the circuit of "kung fu comedy" as an inspiration itself.
>>147129595On a deeper level, the distinctions between western and eastern story structure are tied into the language-cultures that both civilizations belong to. In the West, it is expected to conquer your enemies and travel and journey for more resources - land, water, food, women, what have you. Life consists of competition and conflict over even the smallest things. Every man for himself, even if he belongs to a team (which is both voluntary & temporary), because no one will just hand things to you without expecting something in return. Someone else wants what you want, and you must get it first. Being alone is better than being together with people you don't like. Your antagonists come from within - your inner demons, the threat of immigrants already living amongst you, your rival sports teams and schools and franchises, etc. Short-term gains rule.In the East, things are different. Once you're in a team, you're in it for life. No getting out of it. You're part of a community, which means you share what you have with your neighbor, even if you don't like it or want to. There is more than enough resources to go around, so you won't really find the desire to go outside the expected boundaries, and if you try to, you'll risk being pushed not to. Social harmony is what matters most, even if the people in charge suck, so the antagonistic forces are always framed as external, rather than internal. Long term gains rule.
>>147126030As the name implies, battle shounen are for shounen. That is, boys age 10-19 or so. Most of the people in the western comic/cartoon industries aren't interested in this demographic outside of comedies. The ones that are interested in the demographic are hilariously bad at successfully pandering to them with some rare exceptions.
>>147129248>American teens are largely not working and thus they can't buy merchandiseHuh? No, teens buy fuckloads of merch. Doesn't matter if it's their parents' money or their own, it's a merchandise sale either way.>of which anime already caters to and has been established with the ones who can and doI think the real problem is that the west is really fucking bad at merchandising. Everything is about toy sales which have gone to shit in general since the 00s. Go look at Hasbro absolutely dying besides Magic the Gathering, which they're actively whoring out as a cum dumpster for 3rd party IPs in order to wring out everything they can from the cardboard crack addicts.
>>147126989The image that killed western animation
>>147126030Because the West sees animated stuff as for children, and the stuff they made for teenagers was controlled by Comics companies that didn't want to go that route.
>>147126215Wow way to put up some goofy shit compared to serious shonen stuff. Although this is a good example of the problem. Original western stuff is mostly goofy and for little kids. The serious stuff never lasts, and is usually based on comic book superhero stuff.
>>147126989>implying As Told by Ginger is the rule and not the exception for western art stylesOf course the Xitter user is a lying fuck.Also, I'm willing to bet Ginger is way better written than whatever forgetful slop is on the left.
>>147128926>>147128891This is so obvious that I don't know how there are people who don't know it.
>>147128866>Dragon Ball started as an adaptation of a Chinese novel,No, it was a parody. Don't you know what a parody is?
>>147130225>Of course the Xitter user is a lying fuck.But he's not lying.>Also, I'm willing to bet Ginger is way better written than whatever forgetful slop is on the left.but you are doing it.
>>147128620Not even close.
>>147127887cope
>>147127903>>147127815redditor and samefag, what a sad combination.
>>147127730only the first one is sexy.
>>147126048Because it's shit.
>>147128731ADIDASku....
>>147126391By the 70s anime started doing their own thing and then the beauty of anime began while western animation was left behind.
>>147126425Yeah and it's the only one.
>>147127070>ALTA is constantly in discourse for best animatioBest western animation maybe.
>>147127730>Reusing the same high school girl body type is beyond generic and that's where the West tries playing with more shapes.I can name plenty more hot anime characters. Asuka has 100x times more fanart.
>>147126202Except that this is false. Toei made it.
>>147128661Capeshit has awful fights though.
>>147129355>Also, they have similarities. Similar target demographics and super powered heroes fightingBut so do shounen manga and greek mythology. Capeshit hasn't invented anything new.
>>147126679>>147131405>>147129091>>147126425>>147127070It's quite interesting how the best western cartoon is so heavily inspired by anime. Pretty good shonen but it doesn't touch the best of anime. Why has the west stopped doing shows like Atla?
>>147126030"Think of the children" attitude.
>>147131405>>147131478>ATLA>bestKekaroo! Nice joke.
>>147130163>doesn't want a toon version>doesn't want a superhero versionSo basically you want anime.
>>147126030The west hates little boys and heteronormative masculinityUNLESS it's in service to and subservient to women the state or the male is a faggot or tranny. That's it.That's all.
>>147126465>....motherfucker are borders a joke to youAlways have been.
>>147126989Meh, I like anime and all, but moe blobs with no nose, lips or any recognizable features aren't nothing to brag about. If you're going to make fun of cartoons at least use a character like Alita or 80's Ranma.
>>147131868Ranma is a moeblob with no lips though and Sakura from card captor sakura is beeter than any western design while having no nose. Also manga alita>>>>> anime alita.
>>147131890>Ranma is a moeblob with no lips thoughShe at least had recognizable features in her design, like her hair, facial expressions and body type.>Also manga alita>>>>> anime alitaAre you pretending that Alita's design from the ovas is bad in any way? I understand that you got mad at my post and want to get back at me, but don't be retarded.
>>147127075mythology, superhero shit, etc its full of stuff shonens are made out of, but the west rarely executes a long term story as well as japs do. We should be stimulating an industry similar to Manga where lots of small artists get a chance to publish their original works and get actual exposure, instead of betting it all on 2-3 major companies that spend most of their time reinventing the same characters over and over for a century
>>147132057I forgot to add, a lot of eastern art also aims at a teen or young adult audience, while western animation is almost entirely focused on children.
>>147132008> She at least had recognizable features in her design, like her hair, facial expressions and body type.I guess but there are plenty of moeblo characters that have those like Sakura that I’ve mentioned> Are you pretending that Alita's design from the ovas is bad in any way? I understand that you got mad at my post and want to get back at me, but don't be retarded.I wasn’t mad. It’s just that I’ve read the gunmm manga first and when I’ve watched the ova it just didn’t feel rigth. The manga design is the one that I like the most.
>>147127412That's sad. Danny Phantom was one of my favorite shows in my childhood and I remember it as fondly as I remember Dragon Ball or Naruto, even if it was as childish as any other nickelodeon cartoon. Imagine if they made a cartoon with a male MC and a cast of characters just as enjoyable and charismatic but less restricted and closer to what a shonen series would be, that would be cool.
>>147132090I have no problem with moe characters as such, my problem is more with generic and interchangeable characters without some characteristic feature or outstanding qualities in their design like the one on the left here>>147126989 I know cartoons can be horribly ugly, but you're not going to convince me that a design as bland as that is worthy of bragging about whatever.
>>147132275>my problem is more with generic and interchangeable characters without some characteristic feature or outstanding qualities in their design like the one on the left here>>147126989 I know cartoons can be horribly ugly, but you're not going to convince me that a design as bland as that is worthy of bragging about whatever.Is it bragging? The twit just said that it's cute?(also the original tweet that this is an edit of had a bakemonogatari character for left, which is not generic at all)
>>147132297>Is it bragging?I mean, yeah, ''cute'' is another way of saying good or better. In short he's using the blandest and most generic anime character design out there to brag about how anime is superior to cartoons, that's what I find dumb.
>>147126030western writers are hacks that's why
>>147132372>I mean, yeah, ''cute'' is another way of saying good or better.I thought that cute is just pretty. Are you cute?>In short he's using the blandest and most generic anime character design out there to brag about how anime is superior to cartoons,Maybe the baiting post(which was already responding to a baiting fag that hates all anime and that has been banned 100 times from /co/) but the twit I think uses it as synonym for pretty. >to brag about how anime is superior to cartoonsIs pic related a better way to brag about how anime is superior to cartoons?
>>147126215>T. Woke nigger female, possibly tranny demand it’s own “westoid” anime
>>147132372>''cute'' is another way of saying good or better.No it isn't, stop inserting random meanings into words so that you can get pissy about them. Grow up.
>>147126030Helluvaboss and madtown could’ve had potential.Hell! There’s even a jayjay the werewolf inspired character and shonen protagonist style made!
>>147129164To think he made all of this by the seat of his pants. Really one of a kind.
>>147132618Fffffuck
>>147130001Their parents don't have money either
>>147126030>Japan found the perfect formulaIf you mean transformations and epic battles with impossible skills, those are Indian in origin which religion indirectly helped your series exist.
>>147126030No design space for it in the west. Shounen manga can only thrive in a serialized space, where people want to see what happens next week. America doesn't have an audience to buy things week over week. Completely different culture in the west, everything you buy is expected to be a complete experience unto itself even if it's part of a franchise.Comic books are literally the only point of comparison, but even then, they are designed in "runs", single sets of serialization that don't tend to last more than a year or two. A long running serialization lasting for decades, answering to a single master mangaka, would never be acceptable. There's no precedent for self-publishing like doujin circles in japan. You have to sign up with the big corporations who will only give you test runs that will inevitably fail.So we have no room for an audience and no room for producers. No design space.
>>147129201Dragon Ball is far better written than Invincible.
>>147131478They have tried. But it's hard to have a long-running show in animation especially with a plot. ATLA was lightning in a bottle. There's several single season shows on Netflix that were attempts at ATLA. They died before gaining traction.
>>147126215I tried to watch this thing until the gross feet fetish episode
>>147133098I thought their latest attempt was pretty good
>>147132852are you fucking retarded?
>>147132810In my experience, the poor kids were usually the most desperate for merch, even if they could only afford so much
>>147133361Cute girl, but female protagonists have always been a hindrance for shounen
>>147133451Most mangakas don't know how to write females
>>147133583Westerners are not better.
>>147133593Also true
>>147133583They don't have to, because their target audience (teen boys) doesn't careAnd people looking for well-written females have shojo
>>147133384It's literally just indian mythology, anon.
>>147133735Nowadays teen don't want competent strong female characters to fantasize about them crushing their balls?
>>147133884strong female=/= well written female
>>147133800Are you fucking retarded?
>>147133361Looks like woke kids shit, basically Dora the explorer meets us army female soldier woke ad.https://youtu.be/WgA5zUl4lW8?si=oN9Ee3Sma0yVAoC9
>>147134074It's literally just shounen, anon.
>>147129257>>147129266the OP wasn't about whether superhero media and battle shonen are exactly 100% the same or not, disingenuous faggot."How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre? "this was the question. the answer was that superhero genre IS THE WESTERN VERSION OF BATTLE SHONEN. then you started raging like a weeb bitch not realizing that your own words prove this point too, and then deflecting by claiming others are throwing tantrums.>>147129415>>147129521most western writers (the good ones at least) don't think in the most generic templataic structures anyway, just like the most western artists (the good ones at least) don't draw in the most generic template styles like Japan does. so the whole "point" of this is to pretend you are smart by bringing these up and pretend Japan's story telling is inherently different and superior.>The princess was in fact not kidnapped, but left by choice, and the dragon is protecting herthis was done by the West sooner than they knew that Japan existed, weeb fucktard.
>>147130755>copeJapan stole Jucika's design and couldn't come up with a new style ever since.and this is how western females look like in current year cartoons, meanwhile your example cherry-picked a cartoon by a studio known for their intentionally ugly style. for the anime side you couldn't come up with a different example anyway, since all would look the same.
>>147134815>mogs every western female ever made
>>147132852>If you mean transformations and epic battles with impossible skills, those are Indian in origin which religion indirectly helped your series exist.and was already done by capeshit by that time anyway. regular spiderman, symbiote spiderman, spider-monster spiderman, etc. weebs just keep being delusional.
>>147134967>and was already done by capeshit by that time anyway. regular spiderman, symbiote spiderman, spider-monster spiderman, etc. weebs just keep being delusional.Capeshit just ripped of greek kino.
>>147134640>the answer was that superhero genre IS THE WESTERN VERSION OF BATTLE SHONEN.Then name them. What are the most recent superhero stuff that feel like battle shounen? The shitty superman romance?
>>147126215>Brownoid female lead>ShonenLiterally pick one
>>147134815>Japan stole Jucika's design and couldn't come up with a new style ever since.Explain how Sakura is anything like Jucika.>>147134875>implying the fag knows about RoV
>>147134875>trannysure does>>147132595if you weren't anime-poisoned, you could see how uncanny that face is.
>>147135126>if you weren't anime-poisoned, you could see how uncanny that face is.Yep that's the idea since she is meant to look uncanny yet her red eyes look gorgeous and create such a cool effect unlike anything in western animation.
>>147135020who said anything about "most recent"? how many times do you have to move the goalpost from "How come the West never really tried to make its own version of the "battle shonen" genre? ">>147135047>implying the fag knows about RoVyes i know about your communist tranny anime
Define "battle shonen"
>>147135126>>trannyYou are retarded.>>147135165Even in your WESTERN written wiki it says nothing about trannies.
>>147135165Interesting how you've ignored my Sakura example... very interesting...
>>147135165>who said anything about "most recent"?Me I said that. I am not op and I am asking you to name some. The battle shonen genre still exists in anime. Does it exist in cartoons?
>>147135211>You are retarded."sure the FEMALE main character is called OSCAR and dresses like a guy and takes on masculine roles and pretends to be a guy but but but Japan has like 99999 versions of crossdressing and it's called transugenderu which is nothing like transgender in western countries even though the plot is also set in western countries!"
>>147129374Dragon Ball being heavily influnced by series like kinnikuman and taking from the wrestling genre in general does not make it inherently "wrestling".
>>147129248largely agree but more teens are working now compared to a decade ago
>>147135275>sure the FEMALE main character is called OSCAR and dresses like a guy and takes on masculine roles and pretends to be a guyHave you watched the show, nigger? Do you know why she has to do all that stuff? You clearly haven't. Also it's written right there: female(something you will never be btw). Hell she even is in love with a man. Post screenshots from the show where someone says that she is a tranny. Do it.
>>147126720Anon, seinen means young adult. Aka people from their 17 to their early twenties. Shonen is for kids from 10 to 16. Just like cape comics.
>>147135319No, it makes it pro wrestling; you even call people jobbers and there's more talking and bragging than fighting.
>>147135334sure the creator is a communist feminist obsessed with sexuality and leftist revolutions BUT that doesn't mean it has anything to do with that character even though that character is NOT a historical person and was entirely created by the mangaka too.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riyoko_Ikeda#Education
>>147135427Not reading anymore. Answer my points and give me examples from the show or it means you haven't watched it.
>>147135233Jucika did both the moe and the smug anime girl look and personality before anime, your moeblob doesn't resemble her as much because by that time they made the eyes bigger and nose smaller the side view of her face is also what later became an anime staple with the cat-like muzzle.
>>147135453you are implying a character is only a tranny if they are directly called a transsexual in canon. by that logic western cartoons hardly even have trannies or homos, because simply crossdressing and behaving as the opposite gender is apparently not enough.
>>147135523>ou are implying a character is only a tranny if they are directly called a transsexual in canon.If people act as they are trannies in cartoons. Other characters call Oscar a woman in the anime.>western wiki Point ignored.
>>147135462>Jucika did both the moe and the smug anime girl look and personality before anime,How is that anything like Kinomoto Sakura, retard. >your moeblob doesn't resemble her as much because by that time they made the eyes bigger and nose smaller>your character doesn't resemble her because she doesn't look like it Sakura doesn't resemble her because Sakura is totally different you retard. Using the same logic you can claim that every character ever made is just jucika but different eyes, nose, face shape, hair, mouth etc. Retarded logic. Does this character resemble her as well? Does Myon from Mind Games resemble her as well?
>>147135176A series aimed at teenage boys that largely centers around fighting
>>147126048thought this was a shitpost but you're right. its not doing to well in terms of ratings.
>>147126030catering to boys is like poison to a jewish dyke tv executive
because too many non whites like battle shonen.look at how popular dbz is in black and latino communities.The west would sooner self destruct than accept the darkies, since to them it's the same thing.
>>147134967dbz is older than that, retarded.
>>147136138Castlevania then
>>147136270this has nothing to do with anything. shut up.
>>147136380Lmaothe series with the gay rape? Are you going to show that to a boy?
>>147136365shut up bitch ESL
>>147136380Castlevania is an adult cartoon
>>147136179I started watching it and I like the premise and ideas but the pacing is so bad
>>147136401cope and seethe
>East vs. West thread #1000000000
>>147136270>The west would sooner self destruct than accept the darkies, since to them it's the same thing.Uhm bro, you might want to look up the western demographics.
>>147127713yes, they get royalties. And since shonen manga are selling well, they can make pretty good money if they are above average in popularity, and at least be able to pay rent if average.
>>147136536What is the point of this image?
>>147136788/a/ and /co/ made characters together
we all know east mogs west but co is billions superior board than athats why your spic refugees shitting on here
I think I don't like manga anymore, bros. I have a slight concern that if I revisit my favorites, I won't love them anymore. At least it was a good 17 years.
>>147136830>co is billions superior board than aI don't get why people compare media boards. They are all trash. /co/, /a/, /tv/, /v/. All the same garbage. What does /co/ do better? Nothing. It has the same issues as all of them. You want a good board? Try /po/ I guess. Origami is pretty cool.
I think I don't like comics anymore, bros. I have a slight concern that if I revisit my favorites, I won't love them anymore. At least it was a good 15 years.
>>147126030Because it was determined in the early to mid 20th century that Western child audiences only want capeshit and slapstick comedy.
>>147136993>the left can't meme
>>147136179>thought this was a shitpost but you're right. its not doing to well in terms of ratings.It's Toriyama's last work too.
>>147137068>memeIt's the truth...
>>147137101The truth is that you're a massive faggot. Accept that truth.
>>147137195Yeah, I used to be one back when I was reading comics but things have changed. As soon as I've stopped reading them I could feel all the gay thoughts leaving my brain.
>>147136696I have been. Why else do you think we've seen an increase in "the west has fallen billions must die" memes?
>>147126048Only good thing to come out of it is Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta
>>147136088nice, this image would fit well in: >>147126989
>>147133191elaborate
>>147126048>>147137630See Daima in my suggestions.Rated 6 and up.Hard pass.
>>147137630>>147126048I bet they planned more than half of the DLC characters for Sparking Zero being Daima related and I wasted my goddamn money.
>>147126528Pokemon's decline killed 4kids so they could have just sat it out.
>>147136419Only early OG Dragon Ball has good pacing.
>>147139358Man, even with that in mind, Daima's dire
>>147126030Ben 10Danny Phantom Jackie Chan Adventures>B-but they're superhero!They are action shows for boysAka shonen
>>147139081>elaborateBasically there's this episode with a divorced couple the dude keeps training his fingers while the wife her feet does and her whole clan keep using feet for everything
>>147139558Forgot the pic but this woman is almost always like this
