>>150947896

No one is supposed to think he's a bad guy. Even Moore said as much. Roschach is a true hero. He just lives in a world where heroes don't win.

>>150947896
>Why are we supposed to think Raw Shark is the bad guy?
You're not. That's a retarded interpretation of this one statement by Moore on Rorschach. People took "bad example" to mean "bad guy". All he said was Rorschach was not meant to be wholly admired as a paragon of virtue (like a child would other cape heroes from the regular comics), since he had bad ways about him, that only make sense in the context of this story, and led an anguished existence.
This aspect of being resolute is actually one of the qualities Moore finds admirable in people like Steve Ditko.

>>150948268
Its what the HBO version of Watchmen got right. A bunch of sociopaths took what Rorschach was doing and perverted his image for their cause. It's very META. But don't watch that show.

>>150947896
Because it takes all of 20 seconds to realize that he would rather condemn millions, or billions, to die in a nuclear holocaust rather than think about his morality
Even rorschach realizes how stupid that is and chooses to be blown up rather than allow himself out

>>150947896
>"Never compromise" is some hero shit
That is a frightening thing to say, doubly so in that you don't understand why
There's nothing so dangerous as a zealot

Also Kovacs committed sudoku because even he understood that letting the world end wasn't conscionable and couldn't stand the contradiction

All of this is moot in a world where Jon could literally unmake every missile, tank, and fighter jet in the world in the blink of an eye.

>>150948382
>>150948376
Choosing to die on you're feet rather than going with a lie isn't compromising. You guys must have that COVID vax huh?

>>150948456
He chooses to die because he lacks the maturity to process moral complexity
His death isnt some noble sacrifice, he accomplishes nothing through it

This isnt subtext, its explicit in the text, rorschack was wrong

>>150948478
No it's not a noble sacrifice even though if Jon had let him live he would have told someone and, as you said, condemmend billions to nuclear death.

>>150947896
Uncompromising men are easy to admire.

>>150948549
He could have, get this, just do what silk specter and nite owl did and accept that they can keep their mouth shut
But he lacks the emotional maturity to accept that ozymandias won and chooses to die, a death that was absolutely unnecessary and could have been avoided if he had accepted some character development

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One of the redpills of the story, for me, is realizing that there are basically three real "superheroes" in the story: Rorschach, Ozymandias, and Dr. Manhattan. And they are "superheroes" because they are removed from human frailty. Manhattan literally isn't human any more. Ozy is willing to kill, and to die, for what he believes to be right. Rorschach is willing to do the same. They are, as >>150948570 notes, uncompromising, to a literally superhuman degree.

And Moore's main thrust in the story seems to be that this is a bad thing to be. That to be superhuman makes you, basically, inhuman. It robs you of your humanity, because humans are frail and complex and falter and make mistakes. Dan and Laurie are the real "humans" of the story and I think it's telling that THEY get to live happily ever after, while the three superhumans die, self-exile, and in Ozy's case are left with a sense of futlity and impending doom. The three superhumans don't get to truly be happy, the two "normal" humans do. Moore seems to make a point of this, and does so because arguably the message of Watchmen is that being superhuman is bad, and dangerous. That being above humanity, more-than-human, is to cease to be human, and this is a dangerous thing, both for yourself and for those around you.

>>150948627
Considering the ending of moore's miracleman, I think you are right. He doesn't like the idea of superhumans.

>think mass murder should be punished?
>heh, guess you got some growing up to do, kid

>>150947896
>>150948069
>>150948268
>For all his pretensions of moral absolutism, Rorschach's reaction to Veidt's massacre of New York City show he's ultimately "pick and choose" when it comes to morality. Rorschach is the only one of the characters who refuse to keep Veidt's actions a secret, a decision which gets him killed by Doctor Manhattan. However, what Rorschach apparently doesn't realize is that Veidt just executed the exact same thing a young Walter Kovacs had once praised Truman for doing – sacrificing many lives to (supposedly) save countless more. Simple hypocrisy may seem minor compared to Rorschach's other crimes, but it's even more damning because it exposes how hollow his one potentially heroic trait – his unwavering moral code – really was.

>>150948691
>gee wilikers, the world is complex and cant be boiled down to black and white

>>150948692
>dood nooks
It's a retarded analogy because there was an ongoing "dialogue" between the American and Japanese whereas Veidt deliberately does his attack under a cover of deceit.

>>150948627
I always thought Dan and Laurie were repulsive in their final scene.

>>150948725
Me too

>>150948716
That doesnt really change the ultimate fact, that rorschack is a hypocrite who turns on his moral code once he has to make a 3rd grade moral choice

>>150948573
Yes because Ozymandias killed millions. Doesn't matter if it was to save billions. He would never answer for those lives. Best thing Rorschach could do is exactly what he did. Leave a bread mcrumb trail. Sow discontent. Hope that people will follow the clues to the people who lied to them.

>>150947896
it's not black and white good/bad guy
he is pig headed to the point of self destruction, if his philosophy leads to his demise what good is that philosophy?

>it's alright to forgive the murder of hundred of thousands because some guy's retarded plan says that it will prevent nuclear holocaust

In hindsight you're not likely to find an unrepentant serial rapist who finds rape scenes distasteful, so giving the benefit of the doubt to even discuss the matter is a waste of time.

People who will pointedly idolize a character with a flawed mentality will pointedly have or exhibit a flawed mentality.

>Its not black and white
>the book is quite literally a rorschach test in itself
Kino

>>150948692
>written by Devin Meenan of CBR.com
Why post this?

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>>150948692
if that's alan moore's quote, then he's disallowing rorschach to change his mind. alan moore did that at least one other time, when silk spectre was talking about how the comedian was a rapist and rorschach wouldn't believe her. manhattan was standing right next to both of them and manhattan says nothing about the comedian's character, considering manhattan literally witnessed the comedian murder a pregnant woman, with the implication that it was his own child she had in her. because manhattan says nothing, rorschach is never even afforded a chance to change his mind or double down. i think alan moore somewhat railroaded rorschach in to being a flat character but it doesn't jive well because both manhattan (allowed himself to be a weapon of war and escalated political tension) and ozymandias (negligence and not using his vast intellect to be getting involved in politics or coming up with a plan much sooner) are themselves irredeemable. alan moore is my favorite writer, but i disagree with him about his handling of rorshach. it was a bit of a fumble
>>150948627

>>150948755
>allow nuclear war to occur and kill billions because of your own personal beliefs

>>150948760
>if his philosophy leads to his demise what good is that philosophy?

Purpose of morals and values is not to make you happy or successful.

>>150948764
None of them forgive ozymandias, they just recognize that undoing his plan now could kill many more than what ozzy has already killed

>>150948764
>hundred of thousands
"Half of New York". About four million.

Stubborness isn't always heroic, anon

Most people generally think something like a Nuclear war is a much worse outcome than compromising on personal values, and so would say he's being unreasonable, especially when he's talking about threatening the avoidance OF nuclear war

>>150948456
He's not just choosing to die himself though, many millions of others would be killed if he got his way, that's the point

>>150948573
They had a choice. Instead they followed the droppings of lechers and Communists and didn't realize the trail led over a precipice. Donmt tell me they didn't have a choice. And now as the world stands on the brink, staring down into bloody hell, all those liberals, smooth-talkers, and intellectuals...
And now nobody can think of anything to say.

Cut out the suplurfluous language and Walter knew exactly what was happening.

>>150947896
You're not supposed to think he's the bad guy you're just supposed to think.

>>150948861
>He's not just choosing to die himself though, many millions of others would be killed if he got his way, that's the point
Thats better than living the lie. I'm sorry it is.

>>150948790
P.S. i forgot to mention it's not a strong argument to say "rorschach believed X in the past, which is repugnant, so now he's a hypocrite if he's changed his mind and improved his morality framework"

>>150948790
see
>>150948787

>newspaper complains about censorship to protect "our new soviet friends"
Moore was just wanking about le evil west collapsing and communism winning.

>>150948850
Which is hundred of thousands.
>>150948819
They all forgave him by accepting that he is somehow right, because this would miraculously end all conflicts, it won't, which is even something he realizes at the end. The plan was just Ozymandias ego trip.

>>150948908
>Which is hundred of thousands.
It's also more than four tens, but no one would say that.

>>150948879
Opinion, most people disagree and don't think that lies are le ultimate bad outcome possible

Or would you find yourself unable to tell the Gestapo officer anything other than the truth about the Jewish family hiding in your attic if he asks you whether you know about any

>>150948755
But anon! Ozymandias said he made himself feel all those deaths! You can believe him right? After all he just secured the existence of the rest of the world! Totally!
>>150948691
Honestly it wouldn't even be a point of contention but one line fucks everything up.
>I did the right thing... right Jon?
My. Fucking. Nigga. If there was even a shred of doubt in his head maybe DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER? Raw Shark is in the right and if Ozy gave such a fuck he'd create an army of the squids and just go full blown villain.

>>150948895
yeah, and now capitalist countries like russia are totally at peace with other capitalist countries. capitalism truly won, there are no more wars and no more genocides! what a hoot!

Seethe.

>>150948908
>They all forgave him by accepting that he is somehow right
They don't forgive him, they just recognize the reality of their situation

>>150948925
Well whose side am I on? At present the Jewish attic-dwellers are putting family in danger. I would in a heartbeat tell the truth to save them. Or am I on the side of pushing back a ceaseless tide of hate? i protect one Jewish family and I've done my bit of good for the day? So after that I just keep allowing more and more in?

>>150948961
No, they ignore reality and just accept this point of view, whoever was a victim doesn't matter to them, one because he is so far above reality that he couldn't give a fuck and the other two would rather just go to their little world where only they matter.

>>150948992
They literally had live news feeds showing that the plan had worked and war had been averted successfully

>>150948627
>The three superhumans don't get to truly be happy

If refusing to live in a fragile lie that could fall apart at any moment makes you undeserving of being happy then I'm up for it to be honest, it doesn't surprise me that a commie thinks you should just shut up and accept to be lied in your face, we have seen how this results in the real world and how that sporadic of shot dopamine develops in the long term.

>>150948992
The reality is that telling anyone about what ozzy did risks billions of deaths

>>150948969
Oh you'd be rounding Jews up yourself, nvm then

>>150949000
For the moment, but the point of Dr. Manhattan last words to Ozy is that this wouldn't lead to some utopia and whatever peace this brought is momentary and Ozy is such a little bitch that he needs the validation of the only one smarter than him because he himself isn't even sure of the plan.

>>150949010
You didn't say there was a third option. But yeah. If thats the side that's "good" hell yeah I'd be a stormtrooper. Fortunately I live in America. My pride lies here and not over there.

>>150949010
Sadly that's the end point of a lawful society. What you call fascism is just the ultimate dystopia.

>>150949004
Does it though? From what I understand Ozzy had a fleet of the squid things to activate at certain moments to keep the world focused on that "threat". Now when he activates them will it still be in a heavily populated city? Because at that point he's be adding more and more bodies to the pile.

>>150948627
>And Moore's main thrust in the story seems to be that this is a bad thing to be.
If you think Watchmen is about "good" and "bad" then you missed the point.

>>150948888
It's not even Rorschach believed this, but young school boy Kovacs believed this. In prison, Kovacs even says when he first got the mask, he was only pretending to be Rorschach. So Moore having a homework assignment about Truman be a sign of Rorschach's hypocrisy was a tad weak but it's suggesting even current Rorschach would think highly of Truman's actions. It's clear throughout the story that Rorschach is a patriot that has a positive opinion of those who serve like the Comedian regardless of Comedian's "moral lapses". Moore believes this is hypocrisy to value American lives over foreigners. Rorschach cannot stand that Veidt massacred millions of Americans.

>>150948861
When I bought up the COVID Vax it should've been a reminder at how shit it is to be lied to. Save your fellow man by getting mystery juice injected into you. When someone "in charge" lies to you because they don't think you can handle the truth you're obligated to be as beligerant as possible until the truth is exposed.

>>150948382
>There's nothing so dangerous as a zealot
How about a pragmatist who's talked himself into murdering a city of some six million?

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>>150949084
Read nigga read
>>150948787

>>150949100
Ozymandias is bad and wrong, this is also not subtext but explicit in the story, tales of the black freighter all but states that his actions were unnecessary
But rorschach is also bad and wrong, he is willing to risk billions of deaths instead of compromise

>>150949093
You're presupposing always knowing that you ARE being lied to
And here it wouldn't BE the government lying, they don't know the truth either

>>150949142
conspiracy theories are comfort for people to find order in the world, when in truth it's just ignorance, greed, and incompetence that steers it.

>>150948456
He literally begs to be killed. He gives up completely. That’s why he unmasks himself and becomes regular old Walter again.

>>150948415
I don't think that Moore wanted him to be as powerful as DC made him to be.
But Manhattan states that he cannot change human nature. Moore was an opponent of "peace through strength" policy, insisting this would only escalate the situation (he was wrong, it ended the Cold War, he just gave Soviets plot armor).
In story, Manhattan could only enforce tyranny that would be vile in its way.

>>150949106
I am referring to Moore's words, not this Meenan guy:

The only difference with Adrian Veidt is that he didn’t do it in some far-off country full of yellow people; he did it in the middle of New York. That's why Americans were so shocked by the ending, because it’s unthinkable. All right, maybe some people do have to die to make the world safe, but not Americans! That's too great a price. Yellow people, yeah; black people, sure; brown people, okay; WEuropeans if we must. But not Americans; Americans’ blood is worth too much. Wog blood is comparatively worthless. Hundreds of wogs can get killed and it doesn’t add up to one drop of American blood. If one American tourist gets killed, they firebomb Tripoli. It's that way of thinking.
https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2025/07/i-did-right-thing-didnt-i.html

>>150948691
Rorschach’s idea of punishment is just beating up/killing you. And he fails miserably at both when he tries to attack Ozymandias. And then he walks off throwing a tantrum and commits suicide.

>>150949093
>you're obligated to be as beligerant as possible until the truth is exposed.
Not true. You have no real metric of truth, just things you can hear and see that would satisfy you. You pick and choose. That's what Rorschach was about. His morals were tight, but their foundation is shallow. Most would adjust, but in the end he proved that "autistic people are harder to convince therefore have stronger morals" fallacy that assume that the morals they hold are good or sensible. Like CWC has strong morals, but we can see the self righteous delusion. I'm fine with moralfags, but Rorschach isn't quite that because what holds together those morals is more of an OCD, a quirk, autistic seething, mental illness. That's not to say that he isn't capable of being good, he's very dedicated to his sense of justice, but through the comic you can see everything is in service to his worldview and is often at the detriment of others.

Rorschach is the Diogenes to Ozymandias' Alexander; both are great in their own way, but their greatness stems from a self-serving core that can be spun as moral, as a virtue, but that's ultimately purple prose, it's spin. Analyzing them as humans first, flawed and selfish, before exploring their motives and morals, is key. This may seem like working backwards from a conclusion, but it's where you go when the other options are exhausted.

So that belligerence has no real end and that truth has no real shape. You get neatly distracted away and locked out.

>>150949188
>dats raycis

>>150949188
Thanks for posting this. That "pick and choose" aspect of Rorschach is important because it's very relatable. We do it all the time. You can see it. The "hypocrisy" debate has shifted away from whataboutism to a more simple and honest "it is okay when we do it" you would expect from fascists and racists. It's not even an insult, they believe in a hierarchy that puts certain people above others and demands they get treated differently. To them the real injustice is viewing everyone as having equal value.

>>150948920
>more than four tens
That's terrible.

>>150949188
>Well, he’s the other side of the coin from Rorschach, a right winger who has the most integrity in some ways; Veidt is a liberal and, in some ways, is the biggest monster. This was again perhaps trying to counter-balance my own natural prejudices — it would have been to easy to make Rorschach the villain and have this blond liberal superhero save the day.
This sort of address OP's question.

>>150949188
Yes Moore, its normal for people to care more about their own countrymen than foreigners

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>>150949188
>People do have to die to make the world safe, but not Americans! That's too great a price. Yellow people, yeah; black people, sure; brown people, okay; WEuropeans if we must. But not Americans; Americans’ blood is worth too much. Wog blood is comparatively worthless. Hundreds of wogs can get killed and it doesn’t add up to one drop of American blood. If one American tourist gets killed, they firebomb Tripoli.

Yes.

>>150949261
>address
adresses

>>150949262
Actually it is completely immoral to say your nationality determines what your worth as a human being is.

>>150948692
>>150948692
CBR is retarded

There is no equivalence between nuking Japan and what Ozymandis did, unless you are a little child who cannot describe what occurred beyond "Uh oh a bunch of civilians died from WMD"

Japanese Government started a war of aggression, a supreme war crime. War laws permit doing what would be normally a war crime if it necessary to stop an ongoing war crime. Firebombing was necessary because Japan refused to give up and free its colonies freely. First nuke was necessary because firbombing didn't convince them. Second nuke was necessary because the first one didn't convince them. And they almost couped their Emperor to stop him from giving up after the second nuke.

And the nukes only killed the same amount of civilians that Japan did during a single month of a six years war.

There was no ongoing war crime in Watchmen. There was a disputed threat of a nuclear war, with opinions raised that Manhattan would be able to stop nukes. Even if not, even if you accept Soviets' plot armor, Rorschach has never supported an egomaniac without a mandate secretely deploying a WMD against non aggressors.

You are arguing that Rorschach is a hypocrite because he would support beating up an assailant, but he would be against beating up a child walking on a street. Nukes weren't used to prevent some theoretical greater amount of casualties (though they did), they were used because Japan has started war of aggression, had greater amount of civilians per soldier than not just Wermacht but also Wermacht together with SS (only SS by itself had greater), and nobody was obligated to deal with this for any moment longer. And if their criminal and insane government required two nukes to give up, only their insane and criminal government is morally responsible for that.

>>150949329
Moore also sees the same issue with Rorschach
>>150949188

>>150949329
Firebombing civilians is a war crime. Nuking a city that kills countless civilians is a war crime. Just because the Allies did it doesn’t make it right or justified.

>>150949329
>had greater amount of civilians killed per soldier

>>150949188
Ah, good to know that Moore intentionally pushed "hypocrisy" over supporting Truman but opposing Ozy. Old commie hates the West and sides with a fucking Axis government, because of course he does

>>150949329
>Japanese Government started a war of aggression, a supreme war crime
this is all pretty irrelevant to rawsharks thought process
he said FDR was a good guy for being able to make the tough moral choice of sacrificing thousands to save millions
then when ozzy says that he killed millions to save billions, suddenly the moral calculus doesnt matter and crime has to be punished regardless of who dies to make it happen

>>150949266
Right, it's like how people on the right can bitch surprisingly hard and frequent because ultimately their idea of justice is something like a fascist ethnostate that caters to them. To begin to justify such drastic actions, you would need to either have a sense of unambiguous supremacy or be genuinely stupid.

>>150949357
>Old commie hates the West and sides with a fucking Axis government
How'd you reach that conclusion?

>>150949326
No Libshit, it is not immoral to put the people closer to you above those who are further

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>>150949329

>>150949346
Not when it is necessary to stop an ongoing worse war crime in the form of war of aggression during which they were butchering an equivalent of both nukes every single month for six years straight.

Whatever was necessary to stop them was justified and permitted by war laws. Which is why America never was sued, nor were Allies sued for the bombing of Germany.

All the blame goes on Axis governments, stop being their apologist

>>150949372
Rorschach didn't have much love for people generally. Remember we open with him fantasizing about telling a sick world drowning in its own filth that he won't help no matter how they beg, but that melts away too in the end when it becomes real. In the end he could just be a mentally ill contrarian, but the most charitable thing to say is that he's nationalistic.

>>150949188
He comes off like a preachy faggot here (as he so often does) but he's not really wrong. The US government has caused insane levels of chaos around the world for over a century and the average Ameritard isn't even aware of it, they just don't care as long as it doesn't personally affect them.

>>150949358
Bring his exact quote, it was long since I read Watchmen. Internet says that Rorschach supported Truman for ending war but "Ozymandis did the same"
He didn't, not even because there wasn't an actual ongoing war. Even in story Ozy's solution is fragile and not lasting. It was a vanity project of a self-appointed egomaniac, not a tough decision of a statesman with mandate.

>>150949429
All peace isn't meant to last regardless, but Ozy's plan worker as per Dr. Manhattan... for a while. Enough to have Manhattan side with Ozy enough to kill Rorschach.

>>150949372
Yes it is. It’s immoral, it’s not Christian, it’s just nationalist garbage.

>>150949386
>It was necessary

You can argue every atrocity in war was “necessary”, it doesn’t make it right or justified.

>>150949452
Nationalism is literally the norm
Only in white countries does this idea proliferate at all that its wrong to care more about your own people

>>150949372
Amerifats will say shit like this while dismissing 95% of their own countrymen for not being "real americans".

>>150949429
the validity or authority is not whats being debated here, ozymandius was wrong in that case
but what is being debated is that rorschack is a hypocrite for whom straightforward utilitarianism is suddenly discarded once he is forced to actually make a decision about letting some people live and others die

>>150949465
Nationalism does not imply a complete disregard for the dignity of others. You don't care about your people, you're just a nihilistic retard.

>>150949465
>Nationalism is literally the norm
nationalism is a fairly recent development from the modern period, where the concept of country and nation being the same thing was codified

what we consider outsiders and insiders is subject to change based on society and environment
there is no real benefit to caring only about those closest to you in modern times, when almost all of our greatest threats like global warming require global efforts from everyone

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>>150949479
Anon its literally the natural way for people to think of others
Its the same reason you care more about your own family than anyone else you know, and care more about people you know than complete strangers
I don't have to 'question your worth as a human' or 'disregard your dignity', its LITERALLY just not caring about distant foreign people as much as your own kind, because why would you

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Man I love having my favorite character be the subject of braindead discussion spearheaded by secondaries on a daily basis. This whole line of argumentation is flawed since the beginning.

>>150948692
>>150949188
Anyways, the point here was never exactly to say "Rawshark is a raisins patriot who only cares 'bout yankee lives", it's just character development. Do you remember how the comic opens up? I'm sure you do, yes? It arguably is Rorschach's most iconic line only second to the OP! Then, don't have people beam it into your brain whenever this argument comes up again.

>>150948627
This guy gets it. Furthermore, Moore can be quoted stating he made Dan and Laurie the more "human" of the main cast and expected that most readers' sympathy would go to them.

>>150949502
No, actually, it's not normal to not care if an extremely large number of people is suffering. I'm guessing you're brown and incapable of feeling empathy.

>>150949502
>Its the same reason you care more about your own family than anyone else you know
caring more about people just because you know them has been known as a moral failing for years now
the entire point of having a legal and justice system based on a set of rules is intended to make society run more fairly because you treat everyone equally under the law rather than show obvious favoritism to your sons and brothers
to think that being in our natural state of ethical selfishness is a flaw not a virtue

>because why would you
because all people should be treated equally
people on the other side of the world are also people with families and feelings and wants and needs, we shouldnt treat them as lesser solely because we dont know them

>>150949502
see >>150949468

>>150949544
It really is

Do you think the chinks care about starvation in Africa? Do you think the blacks care about some tsunami in Indonesia?

>>150949558
>Its a moral failing to care more about your family than strangers
fucking hell man, actual mind-virus

>>150949576
>Do you think the chinks care about starvation in Africa?
They don't want Africans in their own country, but that doesn't mean they're heartless.
>Do you think the blacks care about some tsunami in Indonesia?
American blacks? No, because Americans are narcissistic retards as a rule.

>>150949584
yes, society explicitly holds that we should hold strangers to the same legal and moral standards that we expect from our families
no one is saying you cant love your family, or that you cant love your family more than strangers, but we have to understand that our family is not inherently more valuable than anyone else

if a judges son is convicted of a crime, then the judge shouldnt be in the room at all because he will be more lenient to his son
thats just standard practice because we recognize that its hard to be objective once familial ties are in play
but we have to set aside that tendency to care more about people close to us than people who are farther because society needs to be fair and equitable to function

>>150949584
You help the people closer to you first because you can, it is in your power to do so. That does not mean it's normal to witness atrocities and feel nothing about them simply because they are taking place on the other side of a geopolitical border.

>>150947896
You know how Ozy had started his master plan before they reached the throne room? Walter revealed his plans before he left for Antarctica.

>>150947896
he's not the Bad Guy, he's complicated.

>>150949624
Apparently the standard was set that caring about your own people at all makes you an evil nationalist, so that sounds heartless to me

don't talk about treating everyone equally and then start laying down stricter standards for Mericans

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>>150949528
Also also, little Walter wants to defend Truman's actions BECAUSE he is projecting a surrogate father figure on the man, NOT because his utilitarian decisions resonate with him. Everyone always ignores this layer of characterization.

Sylvia told Walter the reason his father ultimately left her was because he liked president Truman and she did not. Thus, Walter fixates on Truman, as he is the closest frame of reference he has as to what his father was like. He wants an idealized masculine figure to be proud of him, to distance himself from his mom and shelter him from all the pain she inflicted upon him. When put like this, it's not very different from how Rorschach later on wants to make concessions for Blake, even if a lot of his actions should make him revolting to him.

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>>150949528
>Furthermore, Moore can be quoted stating he made Dan and Laurie the more "human" of the main cast and expected that most readers' sympathy would go to them.

What's interesting to me here is that this is yet another case of Moore not realizing what his readers would take from his work. This isn't the first time this has happened. He didn't expect that the reaction to Dan and Laurie would be disgust and he didn't expect that people would sympathize with Rorschach as much as they do.

What I get from this is that maybe Moore doesn't actually understand how the average person thinks, or at least not the average comic book reader. I get what he's going for, I'm just not sure I agree with it, and it's clear a lot of people didn't agree with it either, in one way or another.

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>>150949794
>the standard was set that caring about your own people at all makes you an evil nationalist

I hold Ameritards to the same standards as everyone else. Unfortunately, they don't hold themselves to any sort of standard at all, because, to reiterate, Ameritards are narcissistic as a rule.

I fucking hate Watchmen threads on /co/. Some pf you are so retarded

I wonder if in the story of the Gordian Knot if someone got extremely pissed that the rope had been cut orif all parties were satisfied

>>150949883
Since Alexander was the culprit it's likely no one but Diogenes would speak up unless they wanted to be ran through by him or his entourage.

>>150949373
Conspiracy theory in a comics that talks about supposed evidence isn't presenting any evidence, just a demonstration how unsupported conspiracies circulate in pop culture outlets dominated by lefties

>>150949857
You hate us because of our freedoms.

By the end of the book you should be horrified. Three people hold the keys to biggest secret imaginable and they only have one another to keep themselves in check. If Laurie, Dan, or Adrian has a change of heart everyone is fucked. Hell if Doc Manhatten reappears it's all ogre. "Who watches the Watchmen" is a question throughout the book and it never stops being a pertinent question.

>>150949458
Japanese and Germans was slaughtering civilians in places that have surrendered.
Did Allies (excluding Soviets) slaughter German and Japanese civilians after their surrender?
We know the numbers of civilians killed by Axis countries and Allies. And we fucking know who was the unwilling aggressor in those wars. And we know that two nukes and firebombing have barely convinced the Japanese government to surrender.

You are just a lefties that is pro criminals. You would free a lowlife with multiple violent felelonies before their sentence and take no responsibility for them finally murdering somebody. Likewise, you would happily do a moral posturing over not touching civilians of aggressive war criminals, on the mountain of corpses that they have slaughtered.

Because you love criminals of all kinds and are cruel towards their victims

>>150948376
The reason the Comedian is killed is the same reason Rorschach is killed. They didn't commit suicide just because they knew it was coming. If I remember is the Moth guy put in a mental asylum because he also knew what was happening?

>>150949843
Moore tends to have too much faith in comic readers and keeps being disappointed by how many of them are just idiots lacking any type of critical thinking skills.

>>150949934
>Did the Allies…
>THE SOVIETS DON’T COUNT!!!

LMAOOOOOOOO

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>>150949870
True, but that should be a motivator for adding something of value here. And believe me, people are so, so much worse about Watchmen outside of this place.

>>150949941
>>150949843
>mass murder happened and his friend was murdered by her husband who fucks off to space
>why are you disgusted by them having sex five minutes later? Am I lacking basic human decency?
>no, the comics readers must be idiots

Even if Rorschach was an hypocrite, what he was doing in the end was the right thing.

>>150949958
Comic reading NEETs also can’t understand basic human behaviour and coping mechanisms.

>>150949963
Giving up after throwing a childish tantrum and killing himself by proxy?

>>150949934
>Allies (excluding Soviets)
lmao

The Japs were already completely fucked by 1945, it was just not necessary to nuke them. The US has always been embarrassingly inept at predicting its enemies.

>>150949979
You blame comic readers but the movies (there was a semi recent 3d one) added a scene of Owlman screaming after Rorschach is vaporized. I think they removed Dan and Laurie sleeping soundly nekkid, too.

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>>150949843
Here is the exact quote, it actually comes from one of the earliest interviews about Watchmen.

>>150949941
>many of them are just idiots lacking any type of critical thinking skills
Sure, but I don't think this example specifically is an issue of lacking "critical thinking skills". Readers understand the characters’ thought process and what motivated the writer to make certain decisions just fine, but sympathizing is an almost purely emotional response. Moore probably expected readers would both empathize and sympathize, but those expectations were just half-right.

Honestly who was Rorscach going to tell? Some far right newspaper that nobody gave a shit about? When they leavefor Antarctica Rorscach and Nite Owl are wanted criminals. He'd be arrested and Joker 2'd in a heartbeat. I think he was bluffing and Doc was the only one to call him on the bluff

>>150950018
>I think most of the reader sympathy will go to them

Holy FUCK he screwed that one up. Does anybody, anywhere, care about Dan and Laurie? I actually think people hate Laurie more than either Rorschach or Ozymandias.

>>150949997
And? The movie also missed the point of the comic on multiple levels

>>150950038
Her only role is to convince Jon to come back but she has no purpose besides.

>>150950018
>Moore probably expected readers would both empathize and sympathize, but those expectations were just half-right.
his expectations were completely wrong. he expected people to disagree with the themes of the comic, he didn't expect the average capeshit reader to be too fucking retarded to even realize that there ARE underlying themes

>>150948941
>My. Fucking. Nigga. If there was even a shred of doubt in his head maybe DON'T PULL THE TRIGGER?
Ozy's whole plan is based on luck. His pyramidal scheme could have easily fallen since it's very retarded to depend on so many people(hitmen included) to properly do their jobs and he wasn't even sure he could "catch a bullet". His plan wasn't perfect since the beginning.

>>150950038
People don't hate Laurie, they are just apathetic towards her. Which can be said to be worse than hatred because that at least invokes a strong emotional response on you.

>>150947896
Raw Shark himself said that there is no God and that everyone interprets the world however he/she sees fit. The inkblots that make the Rorschach test just happened to have a squid pattern when Ozy was staring at them.

>>150950040
Having Dan care about his crime fighting partner was an improvement over either being ignorant or not caring. Sex as a coping mechanism makes my eye roll when Dan giving up his costume escapades led to erectile dysfunction as a plot point. I actually don't remember but when Dan's mentor was killed by those punks, did Nite Owl walk into the bathroom with an underwear catalogue and start beating his meat?

>>150949181
The Cold War didn't end, it just went on hiatus. Have you not been watching the new season?

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>>150950038
>>150950098
And I think a lot of readers do like Daniel, but a big part of that sentiment, fittingly enough, comes from his friendship and dynamic with Rorschach. IMO Moore kind of fumbled the whole part of making the romance between Dan and Laurie something believable and engaging.

>>150950130
I utterly maintain that Laurie is the nastiest bitch in the comic and is completely unlikeable. Her last scene is saying "maybe I'll carry a gun" which feels deeply unlikeable and that she's embraced the worst of Reaganite yuppyism with no self-awareness at all, even after all she's been through. She's a detestable figure for me.

>>150950130
Two people with similar background meeting, finding mutual attraction because their current lives being unfulfilling is believable. Especially when they get the old adrenaline rush from beating up those muggers together.

>>150950149
>Her last scene is saying "maybe I'll carry a gun"
its to show her taking after the comedian
she also mentions interest in a more armored costume, mirroring how the comedian switched to a more protective outfit himself

>>150950109
>>150950130
One of my favourite moments is when Dan learns Hollis died and he almost kills the top knot who tells him but Rorschach has to reel him in.

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>>150950255
"Believable" wasn't the right word for what I was going for, you are correct. It's more accurate to say that people just don't care for their relationship enough because it's not something particularly memorable among all the other character moments the story throws at you. Like, when they are having sex in the Archie the one thing Dan is thinking about is breaking Rorschach out of prison, lol.

>>150950149
As the other anon said, it’s in order to reflect how Laurie is more like her father. Doesn't make her seem any less reprehensible or unlikeable, though.
I wonder what others think of the HBO's sequel (ugh) decision to make Laurie have a 180 degree turn and want to expose Veidt, while also still shitting on Rorschach.

>>150950399
Yes! That’s one of my favorite moments as well.

>>150950431
I donMt think Laurie ever ends up liking Rorschach.

>>150950399
>not "I know it isn't easy being my friend"
weak

>>150949175
>He literally begs to be killed. He gives up completely.
No, he's aware that Manhattan can kill him and he can't do shit about it. Him removing the mask is one final "Go fuck yourself."
He forced Manhattan to look him in the eye as he killed him in the hopes that some tiny sliver of human morality remained in the big blue prick that'd feel a twinge of some echo of guilt somewhere down the line.
Because that's the only power he had left.

Let's take a hypothetical here; if Rawky was a toe-to-toe with Manhattan in terms of power would he have still demanded to be killed or would he have immediately thrown Ozy into low orbit then went and told everyone what happened?

>>150947896
Because we are not supposed to think that. They are all greyscale of good and bad.
>>150927417

>>150949544
The fact you have to ignore what he's saying and instead pretend he said "I don't care about these people at all, fuck 'em." is proof that he's right and you're a coward who can't have this discussion.
>I care MORE about people I know rather than the abstract humanity as a whole
Is not the same as saying
>I care ONLY about people I know

>>150948382
He was going to WALK back to civilization
From the NORTH POLE or wherever Veidt's base was

Manhattan mercy killed him, he wasn't going to make it

>>150948415
>All of this is moot in a world where Jon could literally unmake every missile, tank, and fighter jet in the world in the blink of an eye.

No, in one of the text pieces at the end of the comics (Gotta read the whole thing, anon!) the scientist guy mentions the Soviets have overbuilt their nuke capacity to overwhelm even Dr. Manhattan

>>150950528
You do remember the owlmobile is nearby right?
More importantly, let's say you're right; all you're doing is acknowledging that his situation is hopeless and the only thing he could do at that point was call Big Blue out and hope that he had a road to Damascus moment.
Again, if Borscht-shack had the powers of Manhattan what would he have done?
Answer the question instead of bitching out of the conversation with talk about praxis when we're talking about principle.

>>150950545
It was out of gas.

>>150950555
Are you going to answer the question?

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>>150950555
Crash landing and frozen engine actually.

>>150949051
ICE is hiring anon, live the dream

>>150950038
>>150950130
I actually quite liked Dan. That end of the chapter written in prose about the mysticism of birds and owls in particular is one of my favorite things from the comic.

>>150949843
>the reaction to Dan and Laurie would be disgust

Your reaction, anon. YOU are making the same assumption that you accuse Moore of making, I've literally never come across this framing of Dan and Laurie as disgusting before this thread, it's all you, 100%

>>150950852
>I've literally never come across this framing of Dan and Laurie as disgusting before this thread
NTA but you do not sound like someone who has participated in a lot Watchmen discussion.

>>150949452
Your family and neighbors are the most important thing. And that's biblical

>>150947896
He defended The Comedian raping a woman, claiming it was "a lapse of judgment". He's a tool that isn't even consistent with his own ideology, and if you think he was meant to be "badass" here you're an idiot.

>>150948627
You're so fucking off-base it is absurd. The book makes it clear what sort of heroics it actually values, and it's two very clear examples; when Nite-Owl rescues the people from the fire and when the people of NY trying to help each other in their last moments before the squid drops. The former allowed NO to reinvigorate his desire to be a hero (though he loses it by rescuing Rosarch, and is immediately punished for it), while the latter shows the heroic spirits that were snuffed out by these edgy, extreme solutions. It's not that capes are inherently inhuman, it's that superheroes around that time were giving up any pretense of responsibility they had towards actually helping people in favor of being strictly violent power fantasies.

Watchmen is a world corrupted by The Comedian. Nearly every single issue in the book can be traced back to him and how he made the world a worse place by choosing to embrace the void, instead of rising above it.

>>150950904
>accuses someone who is actually correct of being off-base while demonstrating how he doesn't even understand the basic narrative development of Rorschach's character
Sure thing, anon.

>>150950469
>Him removing the mask is one final "Go fuck yourself."

Now this is impressive media illiteracy.

>>150950886
I've been online and discussing comics since the early fucking nineties, on BBS boards and USENET, before Moot was an itch on his dad's balls, I've forgotten more Watchmen debates than you've had hot meals, this sort of "UGH woman disgusting" zoomie neo puritanism is relatively new and I have no time for it.

>>150950545
>You do remember the owlmobile is nearby right?
Beaten to this but, he had less of a chance of fixing the fucking owlmobile while wearing a light coat than he had of fistfighting Dr Manhattan. IF he'd had superpowers we'd be looking at an entirely different story - I'm not failing to imagine a hypothetical before you start talking about breakfasts, it's just the scenario would be radically different from the start.

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>>150951045
Do us all a favor and crawl back to the social media pithole you came from.

>>150950852
I wouldn't say Dan and Laurie are "disgusting" but they sure are cringeworthy at times and especially during the moment people are pointing to.

>>150949329
The Japanese surrendered because the Soviets started advancing on Korea. The knew what the Russians did to German civilians and bet American occupation would be less cruel.
The nuclear bombings were little more than Truman testing what his new toy could do, but there was (and still is) this notion that nukes are this uniquely evil weapon and deploying them is akin to a sin, so they had to come up with a narrative about it being super duper necessary to win the war.

>>150951134
More people died in the firebombing if Tokyo than in either nuke drop which makes the nuke taboo so funny.

>>150948790
>I can change almost anything. But I can't change human nature.
>Can you change the nukes into butterflies or trees or something or just make it so they never work?
>Sure, that's actually pretty simple.
>Would you?
>Yeah, I guess.
Watchman, not by an edgelord pedo Bitbong.

>>150949372
There's a difference between saving your family over saving a stranger and murdering a stranger to make your life easier.

>>150949386
The idea that american nukes were dropped out of humanitarian concerns is fucking retarded, it was purely an imperialist decision. Just after the bombs were dropped the american government started injecting guatemalans with syphilis without their conscent. Also while the japanese military couped government was abhorrent, america started the war on japan through oil embargoes, it was a imperial rivalry where both parties were about as responsible. Poor little USA getting sucker punched by japan is a patriotic fiction.

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>>150949502
>>150949570
>its LITERALLY just not caring about distant foreign people as much as your own kind, because why would you
>as much
The study is about the extent of caring, not priority or equalness of caring.

>>150951518
The anon response to this is retarded; caring isn't a limited resource, you "give it up for free" every day. If it was, then learning about anything removes the care you can give anything else. Education is the enemy of family?

One point missed about the final confrontation between Rorshach and Manhattan is that R. is the tactical genious who comes at you with the scalding frying pan oil when you're not expecting it. He left his ENTIRE DIARY to the press, he wasn't expecting to come back from Antarctica, he'd already won at that point.

>>150951611
>He left his ENTIRE DIARY to the press, he wasn't expecting to come back from Antarctica, he'd already won at that point.
he left it to a rag with a dubious reputation, since he sent it before Antarctica and really knowing the plans they uncovered. Nothing about the faked alien invasion. All they had was the series of murders to go on.
The public has no reason to see a connection between some former superheroes being killed and an extra-dimensional invasion happening a few days later. Maybe they can see a connection between Comedian and Moloch's murder and Veidt, but in the wake of what happened most people would probably not care

>>150951763
Tell yourself that, Adrian, but nothing ever ends

>>150948361
The HBO show has some good ideas here and there. Good production value.
But the writing and storytelling is bad. They try to be very edgy, wanted to include woke stuff so much that everything is sacrificed for that even if it contradicts or cointer caricautred the original stuff.

>>150947896
Rorschach is a complicated character.
He certainly isn't a good guy, but his firm belief in justice is an admirable trait of his.
His death at the end of Watchmen is the last terrible sacrifice Ozymandias makes to secure his dream of world peace.

When compared to non-driven largely goalless characters like Nite Owl and the Silk Spectre, and to the amoral and relativist Dr. Manhattan and Ozymandias, or even the nihilism of the Comedian, Rorschach is the most compelling snice he actually believes in something.
He believes that all injustices should be punished. Even though he hypocritically ignores his own crimes and the crimes of people he likes.

Generally believing in something concrete and universal is always way more compelling than generic relativism or pathetic nihilism

>>150950904
>The former allowed NO to reinvigorate his desire to be a hero (though he loses it by rescuing Rosarch, and is immediately punished for it)
This is one of the most bizarre takes on Watchmen I have ever come across, I just want to let you know that.

>the people of NY trying to help each other in their last moments before the squid drops
Huh, I wonder what recent experience was that moved Malcom Long to suddenly act out in that specific moment? What even was the significance of the squid being dropped in the part of New York Rorschach lived in? Guess we will never know…

>>150950038
You can't really hate either Dan or Laurie because they are such nothing characters.
They have no real goals, and barely contribute to the plot outside of how they get back into action the actual main characters of Rorschach and Dr. Manhattan.

They are thematically important, they are more or less the levity and normalcy of the story. The partially exist to show that the world isn't worth losing and that people are worth protecting. Which the grim dark world of Watchmen otherwise doesn't really showcase.

I think Alan Moore wanted us to really like the two. In that way he failed.
I mean both of them are still psycho freaks who wear dumb costumes to either get sexually aroused or deal with their mommy issues.
They fuck right after 4 million people, and their good friend, were murdered.
At the end Laurie says she still wants to be a superhero, but they wouldn't be legally authorized. They'd be unaccountable vigilantes

In a way neither of them are better than Rorschach, they are just as much violent hypocrites as him, but they lacked Rorschach's honor and personal convictions

>>150952426
>Which the grim dark world of Watchmen otherwise doesn't really showcase.
Idk man, the newspaper vendor was kind of cool.

>>150952599
Yeah all of those scenes with him and the kid and that sort of side cast do the same thing.
But those are side moments, and also paired alongside the stuff about the world ending and the pirate story, which are both very grim and cynical.

Dan and Laurie are the main cast members who show those themes. To not just leave them to a handful of moments at a newspaper stand

>>150952020
>police state wearing masks
>white nationalists wearing masks
>ethnonationalist politicians
>Dr. Manhattan in blackface
The show is based and accurate in some ways.

>>150950467
That moment is great too, but the other one is not brought up as often.

>>150948627
>That to be superhuman makes you, basically, inhuman.

Read Moore's Twilight Of The Superheros pitch, it's basically that.

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>>150948692
This is Devin Meenan.

I don't need to take ANYTHING he writes seriously.

>>150954050
What he says is just what was said by fellow unkempt guy and writer of Watchmen Alan Moore.
>>150949188

>>150952016
There'll be more wars, but if you think it's a happy ending because Rorschach's journal is out there, you're reading it the wrong way. It's far more complicated than the truth is found and gets it out there and evil ol' Ozymandias has to pay for what he did!
Which is how Geoff Johns interpreted it, which says a lot.

>>150954160
Except that's not even what Moore is really saying. Again, people just flat out ignore Rorschach goes through an arc in the comic.

>>150948692
Is Rorschach a hypocrite? Does he seem to turn a blind eye to evils done by himself or his country? Yes.
Does that make Rorschach evil or undermine his sacrifice and dedication to truth and justice? Not fully.

Rorschach's non-compromising attitude towards injustice is his largest redeeming trait.
His failures to be consistent, particularly in praising the Comedian, is one of his character faults.

When he's killed for doing something good, for believing in justice and universal right and wrong, that is a sad tragic element of the book.
It's one last sacrifice to the altar of potential peace. It's a way for the reader to get even more conflicted over Ozymandias's decisions. Not only did a bunch of side characters and millions of unnamed New Yorkers die, but so did the protagonist of the book

>>150954050
Judging from his quote, I think he's one of the people who focus so much on their politics they change their perception of media.
He's trying to act like Rorschach is fully this unredeemable villain who accomplished nothing because Rorschach is a flawed, but heroic character who happens to be very right wing.
Some people can't accept those they dislike being made into heroes, or even just fully realized characters, in the fiction they consume.

>>150954192
He goes through an arc, but what is expressed at the end is "never compromise, even in the face of Armageddon". What he expresses is that he hasn't changed. He's still mentally ill and can't make it make sense. Sure, he could be conflicted and that's just what he is saying while on the side he could be reconsidering his Trumanism and his disdain for the people around him expressed at the beginning, but we can't tell if he somehow has woken up or of he's just caught in his own absurdity regarding these issues.

>>150954249
I think it makes sense to just view Rorschach as a human character with flaws.
Sure he has this uncompromising moral view, but as a flawed dude he can make exceptions which he wants to make.
This isn't a good thing, it's just a natural thing people will do.

He forgives himself for his crimes despite being so anal about every legal infraction in Moloch's house.
He was friends with the Comedian, and respects his work for the US, so he assumes the best for him.

But when Ozymandias murders 4 million people, including his friends and colleagues, Rorschach is appalled.
It doesn't matter that Ozymandias wanted to 'save billions' his crimes are unforgiveable.

>>150954224
But Rorschach's "goodness" is clearly incidental. He hates bad people, he hates people who hurt people, but he uses that permission to indulge in hurting people. We see that in how he tortures a random biker for no reason and leaves scoffing at everyone there, assuming they are trading child porn. He constantly copes with his own violence and hatred by imagining he is permitted to be hateful and violent. Excusing violence to the degree of nuking civilians for the greater good has been what he is mainly about. His values are a means to an end.

>>150954459
It's not 'incidental' his values are the source of his redeeming traits.
He fails his values very often, he's been beaten down by the world so much that he has a bad perspective on things, he's not a good guy, but his values keep him from just being a villain.
And when those values, that redeeming part of him, is what gets him killed, it's a real gut punch

>>150952426
To me, they represent the basic person, but amplified. A mix of different moderate hangups, whereas the other vigilantes suffer from the more extreme stuff.
Dan is the fanboy and Laurie is the legacy. Neither have that much agency, and thus not as much power. They're in over their heads with Ozymandias' machinations, with the existence of Doctor Manhattan.

>>150954343
But Truman's actions were not just forgivable, he made an effort to make it known that supported them. His "unforgivable" isn't a decision of sane careful consideration.

>>150953298
Because that scene was cut out of the movie

>>150954224
You know what I'm starting to realise? Rory is more like the right wing version of Green Arrow than a Punisher or Batman archeotype.

>>150954618
They are incidental and people don't have to have redeeming traits. Incidental means that he's a psychopath with an obvious obsession, it works out great for us, but he really is indulging in something that gives him pleasure. He hates the world and wants to hurt it, but that's at ends with his need to be true to his own sense of justice.

Imagine if Ozy was Comedian, if he threw out a few slurs and led an attack on foreign cities like this. His reaction to Ozy was vibes based as well as who was targeted.

>>150955242
>he's a psychopath
lol, you don't know what a psychopath is.

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>>150954249
I think you are attributing more ambiguity than what is actually being conveyed. Rorschach has a very deliberate arc and the way his character is framed is meant to immediately drive the reader into detecting the man is at constant odds between what he says vs. what does. That's what his character is about.

>>150955689
Yes, hypocrite are at odds with what they say and what they do, but it's more than that with him like it is with many like him. Does calling a fascist or a king a hypocrite mean anything? It's the system working as intended, they want that privilege and aren't compelled to be truly fair or just, just fair and just in a way that satisfies their needs, as it conveniences them. There's all sorts of justifications one could come up with, but they often see themselves as a messy solution to a messy world. What they do shouldn't be constrained by a sense of fairness to the masses. Break everyone's fingers and just assume they're pedophiles when that turns out to be for nothing.

>>150954224
>Rorschach's non-compromising attitude towards injustice is his largest redeeming trait.

Remember how he blindly he worships Comedian despite him being a rapist and war criminal?

>>150956118
Stop reading the comic backwards.

>>150956131
Are you implying that in the end his opinion of the Comedian changed? How?

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>>150956118
Did you even bother to finish reading anon's post? He proceeds to mention Comedian right after that.

>>150956187
That contradicts his non-compromising attitude isn't a redeeming trait, it's an autistic feature and a delusion. If he's failing to be consistent, you know he's not non-compromising.

>>150947896
He is the hero and the free and open press is presented as the real saving grace of the plot. The problem Alan Moore has is that he doesnt like when people with politics he doesnt agree with use him as a mouthpiece or see themselves in him. Since he is an anarchist/communist/wizard that is basically everyone. So when he is talking about Rorschach thats really what he means, he doesnt like that YOU see yourself in him if YOU are not a communist/anarchist/wizard. If you are tho then its totally cool.

>>150954170
>if you think it's a happy ending

hardly a fucking happy ending if the sacrifice of 4 million people is in vain and the world goes right back to the edge of destruction like it was before, jesus.

>>150947896
He managed to save Jon, Adrian, Dan and Laurie from the cape killer. He truly is a hero.

>>150954908
Definitely. Rory isn't motivated by any personal vendetta, he's more of an ideologue.
He's like a twisted Green Arrow with opposite politics.

>>150956118
Yeah and that's a character flaw.
His idealism can still be a positive quality, even if he doesn't live up to it.

>>150956511
But listing flaws and "redeeming traits" as if it maths out that he's actually good doesn't make sense. He isn't redeemed by that trait, it makes him worse.

>>150956233
The whole Comedian thing and Rorschach's reaction to Ozymandias's schemes are wildly different.

With the Comedian, all Rorschach does is give him a pass. He's already dead and Rorschach doesn't even forgive him for everything he did, he just treats him with leniency in his own head.
With Ozymandias's terrorist plot, Rorschach insists on justice and higher truth even though he knows he'll die for it.

The Comedian thing isn't even that large of a hypocrisy, it's just Rorschach being lenient towards a guy he likes over shit the Comedian did decades ago.
The large, real hypocrisy is how Rorschach, despite valuing the law and justice, lives above the law and commits many crimes for his own personal ends. This plays in to the whole 'Who Watches the Watchmen' thing, one of the core themes of the book.

>>150956564
Do you think I'm arguing that Rorschach is mostly a good person?
Because I'm not. Rorschach is a blacker shade of grey.
He's not as evil as the Comedian or Ozymandias, not as uncaring as Dr. Manhattan, but also not as good of a person as either Laurie or Dan. (not that either of them are good people, either)

What I'm arguing is that, in wanting to bring the truth about Ozymandias to light, he is acting heroically.
He is more righteous and correct there than Ozymandias.

At the very least his death is deliberately made to be tragic and sad to cause the reader to ponder who was in the moral right: Ozymandias or Rorschach.

>>150948456
>the vax definitely killed millions bro it was definitely bad for everyone
>bro trust these sources that say so
>don't notice that they don't have any proof I AM RIGHT
you're an evil person masking as a just one and are unironically being the bigger hypocrite here

>>150956159
Explicitly? In this case, not really, but it’s kind of pointless to bring him up when discussing the climax of the character. It's the same thing as going "but member how Rawshark foams at mouth while thinking of watching millions helplessly die? durrr, why did he choose that end then? What is he, a hypocrite?"

>>150956630
>What I'm arguing is that, in wanting to bring the truth about Ozymandias to light, he is acting heroically.
>He is more righteous and correct there than Ozymandias.
You slid the goalposts from acting heroically generally to acting specifically better than at least Ozy. Who no one argues is heroic. The purpose of the book, that ending, isn't to get us to compare them. Why would it?

>>150956829
It's not, it's relevant. To judge his morality, what he speaks of not compromising on, requires what his morality has been. If you're the one posting about his "arc" it would be relevant. If you're generally trying to clue us in on where he is lucid and where he is delusional with his judgment, you need to consider what his judgments have been.

>>150956655
You're a fucking moron who fell for the propaganda. I never claimed it killed millions of people. Hell. COVID didn't even kill millions. But they (and please don't pretend not to know what I mean by they) still tried to force everybody to take it under the belief that they were doing something good. Do you understand? They coerced, threatened, bribed and forced people into getting that shit. Because thats what needed to happen to keep up the Plandemic.

>>150957002
>But they (and please don't pretend not to know what I mean by they) still tried to force everybody to take it under the belief that they were doing something good. Do you understand?
NTA but you're letting on that this isn't a conversation, it's you looking for an echo chamber. You're a pretentious faggot so far up your own ass you need to shield yourself from the slightest bit of CLARITY YOU CAN PROVIDE TO MAKE YOUR OWN POINT. So please, let us know who "they" are and why they did all that because without being specific here you're wasting everyone's time shielding yourself from the scrutiny on an anonymous Chinese porn site.

>>150956839
>You slid the goalposts
Nigger you just never understood what I was saying.
>You're just saying that Rory's more heroic than Ozy
No, Rorschach is more heroic than any other character in Watchmen. That doesn't make him a good man, morally. But he is the most heroic nonetheless.

>>150957103
You misunderstand. I'm not prentious. I'm schizo. And if you refer back to leaks 10 months ago you'll see there are literal government glowniggers who post here to discredit honest people like me. Go back to your handler fucker.

>>150957158
*pretentious

>>150957158
Schizos are the most pretentious people on Earth. How can you get so mad, so beligerant about shit you can't even be specific about? Why? With the slightest bit of self awareness you'd come into these issues with a "hey, this may sound crazy, but" or a "I get it if you don't get it, but" but no you get upset with the neurotypicals around you, unable to forgive them for not accepting what you believe uncritically.

>>150957364
You sound vaxxed as fuck dude. Still not taking it.

>>150957399
You shelter yourself from basic questions.

>>150951569
caring is a limited resource, if you care about some nig in africa in a mudhut as much as you care about your son, you dont actually care about your son

>>150957436
That study wasn't about caring about anything "as much". It's about extent of caring about right and wrong done to them.

>>150955242
>>150955640
Rorschach may either be a sociopath or have autism

>>150957364
the longer you use this site the easier it becomes to understand why we used to lock up the mentally ill

I'm not engaging with the retarded arguments everyone is having about politics, I wanna focus in on how speedreaders don't notice Walter was between the ages of 11 & 16 when he wrote about """supporting""" President Truman's decision to bomb Japan, and how that """support""" was contingent upon his misguided admiration of the dipshit father he never knew based on the words of his whore mother. Walter thought "My dad is a good man who works for the President, so if Truman did it then it must be right!"
You remember how the moment when he discovered what happened to Blair Roche was the moment he turned into Rorschach fully, stopped being "soft"? I guarantee if you had asked him what he thought about Truman the day before that, he'd probably have changed his response to "It was probably necessary to end the war, but that didn't make it good." and if you asked him afterwards he'd say "Don't care, wasn't involved." because he is a constantly growing and changing person and not just stuck in whatever his thoughts were from middle school. Anyone who fails to understand something as simple as that is probably stuck there themselves.

>>150957426
I ask the questions people are afraid to.

>>150957549
Nigga did you speed read the first page of the book?

>>150957559
You don't, so many people ask these questions RFK is fighting food dyes. Based but oh my God get out of your ass.

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>>150957587
I honestly forgot about this line from the opening narration. I retract my arguments.

>>150957549
He reads racist magazines, supports the Comedian, says women suck now, and his politics including breaking fingers and assuming your victim is a pedophile later when it turns out you did that for no reason. Being fine with the nuke is ideologically consistent. It might not even be the loss of life and who died, it could just be that a president doing the most based shit is different than some unelected fag doing it in secret.

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>>150957549
>>150957709
You aren't exactly far from the truth with what you said, either. Here his admiration is still contingent with idolizing an unknown father figure. The comic showing us later on this is something that was bubbling up in his head since he was a little kid and that he, in fact, never even knew his father, is meant to showcase how ‘Rorschach' had always existed as a means of coping mechanism for Walter.

>>150948627
>Ozy is willing to kill, and to die
If he was willing to die, he wouldn't have run off to Antarctica.

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>>150957877
I had forgotten I had an ant version of this fanart for some unknown reason.

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>>150950038
Dan is great. I like to say either Rorschach or Doctor Manhattan are literally me, but I'm a Dan at best. I even have a Rorschach in life, in some ways. I can understand why Moore wouldn't want to be around someone like that.
Laurie is, I think even admitted by Moore somewhere, lacking in character. She's dragged along by everyone in a similar way that Manhattan is told what to do by everyone, though Manhattan is obviously more interesting because Watchmen is his story. I think Laurie would be best suited to serve as eyecandy, but Moore and Gibbons didn't really follow that route. She's one of the weaker aspects of the comic.

>>150949979
this bullshit about "people have sex when they are stressed or traumatized to cope" needs to die.
its wrong in hollyjew movies and you are an idiot for believing it's real.
stress and trauma makes your dick limp as fuck
it's YOU that dont understand basic human behavior

>>150955917
i dont understand why Rorschach caring way more than he says he does is a bad character trait or makes him a hypocrite

>>150957484
Rorschach most definitely suffers from PTSD and is highly antisocial. The possibility he has autism is probably there too but I dunno if it's something worth delving into. Nearly all of his mental problems can be explained as the result of trauma.

>>150958530
I don't understand why you posted that. What do you mean by "caring way more than he says he does"? I don't think him opposing Ozy is a product of how he truly cares about the numbers of lives lost, this isn't a function of his sudden opposition to atrocities, he said it himself "no compromising". Had he been in on it, had it been Comedian blowing up some non-white countries at the command of an elected conservative president, he'd be cool with it. But the unelected faggot who killed the Comedian just did a conspiracy so he needs to get the truth out. He's autistically incapable of not doing that.

>>150958641
>I don't think him opposing Ozy is a product of how he truly cares about the numbers of lives lost
Not him but that's essentially the point, yes.

>>150949558
Anon I care about my family more than random strangers. If my sister committed a crime, I'm not turning her in out of some sense of civic duty, or some moral imperative. Fuck that, I care about myself and my family more than I care about abstract concepts, or about society as a whole.

>>150947896
Too radical. Moore thinks that he's the nearest thing to a protagonist and maybe the most morally right character. Thread is over, bye

>>150957877
Not really. Kovaks was a bastard child who went to university and then became a dressmaker.A nobody. Rorschach came about because it was some kismet sign that a murdered woman refused to pick up her dress. The Rorschach in Watchmen (post Vietnam) is the only way he thought he could respond after witnessing the slaughter of a little girl.

>>150958641
we never see him doing something like that tough, not even related. about him being a hypcrite it's always something that happened 10+ years ago and something he had nothing to do with. i think that if he had at the time personally seen the comedian rape he would have put him on the binary side of evil. he monologues to himself how he would let the people of new york die, but when it's come to such he was all talk. he fights whats in the eye

>>150958819
>who went to university

I beg your pardon?

>>150958819
>Kovaks was a bastard child who went to university
No lol, he was taken away from his abusive mother and placed into a reform institution until he was 16.

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>>150958412
It depends on the stressor.
It also happens in Japanese and Korean media.

>>150958874
That's consistent with conservative morality where they don't care until it's something that impacts them or people they love.

>he monologues to himself how he would let the people of new york die, but when it's come to such he was all talk.
It's not the loss of life that he's "not compromising" on.

>>150958951
>Does calling a fascist or a king a hypocrite mean anything? It's the system working as intended, they want that privilege and aren't compelled to be truly fair or just, just fair and just in a way that satisfies their needs, as it conveniences them. There's all sorts of justifications one could come up with, but they often see themselves as a messy solution to a messy world. What they do shouldn't be constrained by a sense of fairness to the masses. Break everyone's fingers and just assume they're pedophiles when that turns out to be for nothing.

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>>150959016
Cool blog post fag

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>>150959082
Work for free.

>>150958641
>>150958975
You are just completely off-base here. Even Moore went on to say Rorschach's feelings were in the right place at this moment and that he wanted him to end up as the most "morally pure" character in spite of being a hypocrite right-winger nutjob, all in order to balance out Moore's own prejudices. The contrasting nature of his introductory monologue versus how he dies is key.

>>150949329
>There is no equivalence between nuking Japan and what Ozymandis did

Yes, there absolutely is.

>>150958975
he's not compromising because random citizens were killed.
Rorschach doesn't think life is precious, and he's extremely localized about who maters, and he think good and evil are concepts that maters more than life, and killing people that are good is evil. , if veidt instead had a machine that killed all child diddlers Rorschach would love that.
if he didn't think the new yorkers were good why would his ethics comply him to tell the truth?

>>150959016
the right have spent the last 10 years saying "imagine if the sides were reversed" to seeing blacks getting preferential admissions to universities and many more ridiculous unfair things. it's about time they finally start kicking back

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>>150948692
This infuriates Americans who are conditioned to believe that not only one but both nukes were morally justified. They'll parrot the same arguments about a ground invasion that never would have happened because Japan was already willing to discuss surrender before the first bomb. Truman just wanted to rush things to a close before the Soviets gained any more ground in Manchuria and could demand a seat at the negotiating table.

>>150959123
>Even Moore went on to say Rorschach's feelings were in the right place at this moment
Interesting. Sauce?
Not that I doubt you, that just sounds interesting to read.

>>150958819
The specifics of the Rorschach indentity came about much later, that's true - but Walter sheltering himself in coping mechanisms and hiding his true feelings since he was a child is what preceded it.

>>150959123
That's good to know. It's the compromising thing that I'm hung up on. Making that his sticking point and not saying it's wrong, just telling Manhattan to do it means he isn't trying to make an appeal to any sort of anti-atrocity moral, it's really him seeing through the investigation and blowing the lid off a secret.

>All the arguments against Rorschach are literally predicated on whataboutism and just going
>YOU THINK X IS BAD BUT WHAT ABOUT Y!???

>>150959161
>if veidt instead had a machine that killed all child diddlers Rorschach would love that.
Eh, idk. I think Rorschach doesn't like scheme-y plots involving mass murder in general, even if they are of bad people.

Rorschach seems to really value the law. Even though he himself is a criminal vigilante.
I think he turned a blind eye to what the Comedian did in Vietnam, or what Truman did in Japan.
In those cases they were military operations given legal approval by congress, okayed by the president, and if people are against it, they can achieve justice for said action with their vote.

Ozymandias unilaterally decides to kill people for what he believes is for the better good.
Did anyone decide Ozymandias should have this power? No. No one but Ozy himself.
Is there a way for the people to bring Ozy to justice? Not unless he is stopped.

Even though he's a hypocrite, it seems he's the only superhero in Watchmen who is also concerned with 'who watches the watchmen.'

>>150959237
What do you mean? He has a strong sense of justice, but he's fine with injustices. It's almost like he uses justice as a pretext to be violent and then an after the fact excuse when he hurts people for no reason. In the end, he's not mourning the slaughter of millions, he's having an autistic fit.

>>150959196
The atomic bombs were no worse than the other bombing campaigns run over civilian areas of Japan.
We were at war, everyone was attacking civilian population centers.

The only issue with the Atomic bombing was that the Japanese were willing to agree to a conditional surrender.
Truman didn't want that. I don't think Americans did either. So he did what he did.

>>150959237
Believe it or not it's possible to like a character while acknowledging their flaws.

>>150959272
>He thought the Atom Bombings were justified so that makes him a hypocrite for not wanting New York to be glassed in a false flag alien attack

>>150950528
Rorschach died in that building. Ozymandias kills him.

All that's left outside is Kovacs. It's why he takes off Rorschach's face. Rorschach is already dead, the coping device no longer capable of soothing Kovacs in the face of moral ambiguity.

/co/ is really bad at understanding visual symbolism.

>>150959291
>No dude I totally like Rorschach I just think he's a heckin Chud

>>150959291
I mean that much true, but on the other hand you have people who lean too hard in the opposite direction, like the guy ITT who thinks Rorschach is a superficial character who is just having autistic fit and only hates Ozy's plan because he thinks he is gay.

>>150959263
Rorschach doesn't value the law in any sense, he kicks the shit out of cops with no remorse.
Rorschach values his personal code of ethics, which are shifting and variable at best. He pretends to be an absolutist with a strict code of right and wrong but this is literally a coping mechanism for living in a world where someone can kill a little girl and feed them to dogs and expect to avoid prosecution.

When was the last time you people read Watchmen?

>You don't like it when bad things happen to you or the people you care about but are fine when bad things happen to people you hate
>Hmmm that's ebin hypocrisy Chud

>ITT /co/umblr can't understand why people would be drawn to a strong willed character that believes he is ontological right and does whatever he wants to achieve his goals no matter what society says

>>150959357
I read it last month.
Rorschach goes and points out every tiny violation and illegality in Moloch's house. Why does he do that? Because, even though he doesn't apply it to himself and his actions, he cares about the concept of the law.

People are capable of respecting something in theory while violating it in practice. That's what Rorschach does

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>>150951518
This test is wrong at the outset, because what it's describing is a chain of loyalties, not morality. There's no reason to believe at all that there is a moral circle that encompasses the previous ones. One can be a true friend to animals and completely despise and fuck over their immediate family.
Another problem is that morality begins at the self, and that you can be "Moral" according to adhering to their gay circles whilst being a complete slave, treated like trash, which would still be completely immoral to functional and mature humans.

>>150958884
Yeah no I thought he went from the foster home to some college. Might be mistaken. For sure he was an aimless nobody before the dress

>>150959429
sure he is well versed in the law, but his ting is that he became "Rorschach" after a child murder case, actually caring about building code violations seems out of character other than to just intimidate him

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>>150959206
Well, there’s the full excerpt being quoted here >>150949188 https://alanmooreworld.blogspot.com/2025/07/i-did-right-thing-didnt-i.html

but also https://www.salon.com/2009/03/05/alan_moore_q_a/

and other examples that come to mind from different interviews which I can't find the source for right now.

>>150951140
The Tokyo firebombing didn’t cause another 100000 people after it ended to die horrifying, disgustingly painful deaths from radiation poisoning.

>>150959581
It is interesting that Rorschach, despite his horrible life, the horrible things he's seen, and his lack of belief in a higher power, is the one with the strongest view of morality.
Dan and Laurie, despite having pretty cushy lives all things considered, are seemingly easier to corrupt and less invested in universal morality

>>150959606
Dying form radiation poisoning, dying from the bombing itself, what's the difference?
It's a bombing raid during a war. Is it 'bad' of course. War is bad.
But bombing raids on civilian targets are done in war.

>>150959773
One is death by slow poison the other isn't?

>>150949128
>tales of the black freighter all but states that his actions were unnecessary
qrd?

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>>150947896
>"DO IT"
>"No" *teleports out*
K now what. How's this hobo planning to get back to civilization from the fuckign North Pole? Dan's having sex with Silk and Ozzy is having an autistic breakdown so... what's next .Rar Shank? Raid Veidt's kitchen for beans?

>>150959510
The study tries to account for that but it just makes it awkward. It tries to go off the standard of degrees of relation and separation

>>150948692
>NOOOO THE HERO CAN'T REVEAL HIS TRUE MORAL COMPASS WHEN DIRECTLY IN THE FACE OF TERRIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES, PROVING HIMSELF MORE MORAL THAN HE FIRST ESTIMATED HIMSELF TO BE NOOOOOOO

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>>150959764
>It is interesting that Rorschach, despite his horrible life, the horrible things he's seen, and his lack of belief in a higher power, is the one with the strongest view of morality.
>Dan and Laurie, despite having pretty cushy lives all things considered, are seemingly easier to corrupt and less invested in universal morality
Why is that surprising? Dan and Laurie have things to lose while Rorschach doesn't. Even when he was in prison and without his mask he still just carried on like it was business as usual.

>>150947896
He's a bad guy in that he does shitty things, but hes also a deeply mentally ill guy who suffered terrible abuse and there are noble intentions behind most of the shitty things he does, and a lot of the people he attacks had it comong. Conversely, when you compare him to the guy who murdered all his subordinates and half of New York, he doesnt seem like that bad of a guy at all

>>150948549
Nobody would've listened to Rorsharch. He had a vague notion of The Comedian mentioning an island to Moloch but no other evidence, and also the general public hated him even before he was arrested and confessed to murder before committing 4 additional murders in prison

>>150949003
Good Morning Sir

>>150948691
>think the smelly hobo's word could possibly mean shit against the world's most beloved celebrity? Try again, sport

>>150948549
>>150948573
did you stop reading after he said "I won", nothing ever ends, he saved no one

>>150959152
I disagree, there is no equivalence. I'm speaking here as someone who is opposed to both.
Both acts, dropping the nuke on Japan and dropping the squid on New York, were bad, but there are degrees of badness. Certain actions can be worse than others. Theft is bad, but it's not as bad as murder.
Let me use an analogy: suppose a guy attacks you and is trying to kill you, you fight back and kill him in self-defense. Most people agree that's justified, or at least morally gray, very few people would say it is completely unambiguously wrong.
Now suppose a guy attacks you and is trying to kill you, you fight back and kill him in self-defense, and also kill his friend who wasn't attacking you. That's bad. It's easy to understand why, in a stressful situation, you may make a bad judgement call like that. However, it is morally wrong. You should not have killed the bystander.
Now suppose nobody attacks you. You just kill a random guy, and say "I hope by killing this random guy, I have inspired all the bystanders to become better people." That's unambiguously bad. You're a crazy person. There is no equivalency between what you did, and what the first two guys did.
Scenario 1 is the equivalent of killing soldiers or striking military targets. Scenario 2 is the equivalent of killing civilians or non-military targets of a country you're at war with, and is meant to be an analogue to nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Even if you believe those bomb drops were justified, it is a historical fact that civilians and non-military targets were murdered/destroyed as collateral damage. Scenario 3 is Veidt's plan. It's idiotic. It's utopian. It's half-baked. It will not work.

>>150960143
imagine wanda calling you a man-whore and kicking the shit out of you.

Watchmen is the GOAT.

>>150960349
Oh my God how did I not realize that?
The whole pirate subplot always ties in to what people were talking about in the regular story in those scenes.
Heh, that ages better, then. A problem with the premise of Watchmen is it assumed there was no way for the Cold War to end other than nuclear war. Which was proven wrong in under 5 years of its publication.

>>150963159
>it assumed there was no way for the Cold War to end other than nuclear war
It's mostly that way because Doctor Manhattan's existence lit a fire under the world's ass. Made even worse with Ozymandias' meddling like getting Manhattan to leave.

>>150959287
>The atomic bombs were no worse than the other bombing campaigns run over civilian areas of Japan.

Apart from the whole “we have no idea how the radiation will affect people” and then going “well whaddayaknow” when the survivors started showing signs of radiation poisoning and other life long maladies

>>150947896
Should I really need to read it thought?

Veidt killing millions of New Yorkers is IDENTICAL to the nuking of Japan

There is no moral difference. It doesn’t matter that they were at war and America warned them and asked them to surrender, or that Veidt did his under deception and made it look like a third party was responsible.

Only racist fascists disagree because they don’t care about yellow lives

>>150964222
True. But the people clamoring for another nuke on Japan nowadays are libs.

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>>150964789
It depends on what you consider to be important or which angle you look at it.
If you look at getting a freedom perspective, than there is no difference.
But when you look at how many people die and how hot the conflict is, than Ozy is wrong. He kills millions that dont need to die, while 5 soldiers die a year. Just to prevent a war. While Japan was in an active war were 100 soldiers/civilians died daily.

>>150965439
>But when you look at how many people die and how hot the conflict is, than Ozy is wrong.

Russia was rolling its tanks across Europe simply because Manhattan disappeared and the US suddenly didn’t have him as a defence shield. Nixon was sitting in the bunker wondering if he should launch nukes like he had been threatening under his madman theory.

All Veidt did was accelerate what was already happening, so that he could then resolve it in controlled manner.

>>150963159
Watchmen’s Cold War was not our Cold War.

>>150965479
This. The sheer fact Manhatten existed had the Soviets arm up even harder than IRL.

Anybody else think an issue with the story is it was written during the Cold War so the ides nuclear war is inevitable just doesn’t wash post soviet collapse?

I just don’t buy the Soviets being afraid of dr Manhattan would somehow make them less liable to collapse. Especially when they were attempting to expand much more than reality

>>150963159
You might have a point. If Watchmen didn’t take place in a world with radically different history that all revolves around the cold war escalating and Nixon never leaving power, you fucking moron. The US literally won Vietnam and annexed it as the 51st state! There was never any de-escalation, instead you had the opposite where Dr. Manhattan siding with the US only thing keeping them from moving onto outright nuclear war

>>150965537
They didn’t actually annex it into a state in the comic, they just won the conflict and had a pro American government

The only notion it’s a us state is some graffiti encouraging this idea and concern over Vietnamese people

>>150947896
It’s Roar Shack.

>>150965537
Leave the retard be, he's been pushing this cope for literal years because he simply can't handle moral ambiguity.
Kind of like Rorschach, except instead of killing himself he just became an obnoxious shit poster

>>150959369
Since when do americans care about new yorkers? You faggots hate each other

>>150966368
Trump and Rudy Giuliani are New Yorkers.

>>150965463
I meant the situation while Manhattan was on earth and Veidt wasnt in his last step.
There was no reason for Ozymandias tomstart the while sheme.

>>150947896
Who said he was a villain? He's clearly a tragic hero with a death wish.

>>150947896
He is strong....

>>150947896
>Why are we supposed to think Raw Shark is the bad guy?
We aren't. You aren't supposed to admire him either.
I do anyways

>>150947896
I find his death interesting because I saw it as:
>the people deserve the right to know the truth.
Which is an admirable thing, but only if there were no consequences attached.
>but the truth will kill everyone
And that this conflict is what made him essentially commit suicide. The atrocity was so great that it shook his core values into realizing how much of a walking contradiction he is that he can’t just brute force himself against it.
But again the last time I read this book was ten years ago at the age of 18 so it’s been a while.

>>150968506
That's an interesting read of it. It's like he knows it makes sense to kill him because he's incapable of keeping it secret.

>>150949425
The problem is that thats still ignoring the fact that every other country in the world was committing way worse shit than the US over a longer scale of time and we only fixate on the US' mistakes because we're loud about them
Just because we're the most "recent" doesn't change anything

>>150949465
It's so fucking funny when you guys say this shit when I know you'd throw a fellow white boy under the bus if you knew he was okay with blacks

>>150949188
>WEuropeans
Why did you add the W lol?

>>150949584
>has no argument so has to make dishonest comparisons

>>150949910
Wow what a nonargument

>>150969753
>the world was committing way worse shit than the US
The problem is that the US used technology and modern mass production to kill. While parading the bible and its non violance and empathy message.
Barbarians being barbarian isnt a big thing.
Now combine that with the US media landscape. Thats why the US is more present in war and brutality comversations.