>>154964890
>She’s cute and she’s kinda sorry for her action
LET HER LIVE

Isn’t this normal for the faggy morals of comics and cartoons, though? Look at Invincible. The Viltrumites are never held accountable for their actions. They just get to go “gee, sorry” and it’s a-ok they’ve terrorized the galaxy forever. Steven Universe is all about how you can be evil and hurt others as long as you feel bad about it later. No concept of atonement. So long as you’re happy it doesn’t matter how long a trail of victims you left in your wake.

>>154964890
>threating to kill the whole city full of people who've never even met me or have any clue about the Damage control stuff is okay because my cunt of a sister who possessed people for fun died
Jesus one movie in and hatred towards mutants is already completely justified

The whole tank scene alone proves this article dead wrong. If spiderman hadn't intervened, then, in addition to the people who were crippled and killed in the streets anyway, the bombs would have murdered hundreds of innocent people.

Stop making these Marvel Team-Up overstuffed movies and just throw in Black Cat, Daredevil and Kingpin

Notice how Pete was totally disgusted by being sexually harassed by Jean until he discovered she is an attractive woman

>>154964950

What matters is having power.

Lefies and Righties don't actually have a code of morality, they just believe they can do anything they want if they have power. On that basis they believe it is realistic and justifiable to consistently change their stance or contradict themselves as provided they have power, they are immutably correct.
The "woman with superpowers" is basically the ultimate representation of this, women can never be wrong or held responsible for their actions, and with magic you can just make that literally true.

The concept of actual consistent, unyielding ideals is a foreign notion to them and you see it in their character writing. They believe that people with convictions are actually just lying and have some other goal in mind, as that's how they themselves think.

>>154964950
Weak storytellers want to have their cake (anti-villain) and eat it too (antagonist that requires stakes against protagonist). Hence you can see between the lines as to why Jean specifically just chose to torment Peter into submission beyond necessity.

>>154964890
>Because in her brain
Given how this is about mind control, that is almost literally like saying if people from Iran come to the writer's house they are allowed rape their females and small boys and kill their dogs. Because thats a rule in their house.

>>154964950
Might makes right, the viktrimumites are forgiven because they want to be and if you dont they will punch your fucking planet until it looks like your mom's anus!

>>154964890
Good. That's the authentic X-Men experience being brought to the big screen.

There is a uprising number of morally compromised writers in media that truly believe that only goals make you a bad person, irrespective of the methods to do it. It's one of those progressive mantras "There are no bad methods, only bad targets".

>>154965299
suprising*

I do laugh at the number one excuse being "well other villains did worse".
Deflecting to avoid admitting she did unredeemable things, because its all they can do. I do like that most people have come around to admit that part of the movie was fucking stupid, even those who enjoyed the film. In a few months we'll see the complete turnover on her character.
These MCU Spidey films always get like 3 months of hype and then years of realizing it wasn't that good until the new one comes out. Then the new one is the coolest ever and the last one was never that great.

it's just women

>>154964890
Have you considered Jean is hot and will continue to get away with everything because of it?

There are villains in the MCU that had a better argument than their heroes and not only got humiliated for it but also killed for it since they "reached for the gun" at the final moment of their encounter. All this to say that Lokiwank was also pretty bad.

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>>154964890
That's right, and if you think she's evil you're a misogynistic chud

>>154965410
>nothing jean does int he movie is worse than what loki, yondu or bucky did
Didn't Loki try to cause a genocide at one point? Yondu has traded and kept slaves, and really Bucky didn't do anything wrong since he had zero free will.

>>154965410
To think you can make all criticism go away with one utterance of the M-word, just call it misogyny and all the horrible shit you do is above reproach. It's like crying antisemitism.

When the fuck is Sadie doing an onlyfans, because goddamn.

>>154965410
Loki got punished for his action Yondu died to make up for the things he did

why did they make the park scene like that
I generally had sympathy for jean, despite the whole reckless posessing of random innocent people thing. her sister was taken, she was alone and angry and desperate, civilians are npcs anyway, it's fine, I'll look past it.

but then they show her and her sister casually mind-raping random people for shits and giggles?!? my sympathy ends at some point.

>>154965410
Depressing but the light of hope is that multiple people are calling out this person's bs.

>>154965562
Also them seeing the baby with a mom scared me for a sec that one of them would possess the baby so they could feel mothers love. I bet that was the plan at some point but got cut after Feige seriously asked why would anyone sympathize with a person who mind controls babies.

>>154964890
I feel like this thread falls under TV more than it does /co/.

>>154965410
She's evil and deserves to be stripped of her powers for all eternity before she ends up genociding a bunch of Broccoli people by eating their sun.

>>154964950
Careful, some comic book fans don't like it when you question the writers choices.

>>154964950
It's also bad in those examples, but at least in Invincible and SU its exaggerated space war crimes that are not grounded enough for people to take too seriously. And at least the animated series of Invincible is tackling it better. This movie is more grounded and actively shows the state of her victims, only for then to pretend that doesn't matter.

>>154965410
Wasn't Bucky brainwasheed when he did bad stuff?
Or am I misremembering?

>>154964890
>Moral ambiguity is when the writers/director insists there's no actual consequences or harm done by blowing up buildings, running over people, and causing mayhem and destruction across one of the most population-dense cities in America.

>>154965410
>>154965630
You may all enjoy videos like this. I expect more like in the future.
https://youtu.be/B4_dp6RhQos?si=KHSKzvOU2fSgep-0

>>154964890
can't trust a mugga

>>154965636
He was, everything he did was against his will and was aware throughout the whole thing hence the line "I remember every single one"

>>154965562
I suppose the idea was they were just dumb children and only possessed them for a few secs but yeah

>>154965636
Yes, and multiple people called them out for it and the user was forced to apologize.

Didn't they end up fighting Civil War over shit like this? Now it's no big deal?

>>154964890
Kill mutants. Behead mutants. Roundhouse kick a mutant into the concrete. Slam dunk a mutant baby into the trashcan. Crucify filthy duties. Defecate in a mutants food. Launch mutants into the sun. Stir fry mutants in a wok. Toss mutants into active volcanoes. Urinate into a mutants gas tank. Judo throw mutants into a wood chipper. Twist mutants heads off. Report mutants to the IRS. Karate chop mutants in half. Curb stomp pregnant muties. Trap mutants in quicksand. Crush mutants in the trash compactor. Liquefy mutants in a vat of acid. Eat mutants. Dissect mutants. Exterminate mutants in the gas chamber. Stomp mutant skulls with steel toed boots. Cremate mutants in the oven. Lobotomize mutants. Mandatory abortions for mutants. Grind mutant fetuses in the garbage disposal. Drown mutants in fried chicken grease. Vaporize mutants with a ray gun. Kick old mutants down the stairs. Feed mutants to alligators. Slice mutants with a katana

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>>154964890
Normalfags really ate this shit up and are asking for seconds. Thousands of people justifying Jeans actions on social media.
Morality is fucking dead.

>>154965718
would it have killed them to create a situation where they at least have some pretense of not being evil
I'm not asking for them to be vigilantes, but something small. maybe there's an abusive husband in the neighbourhood or a group of bullies on the street or ANYTHING, anything that isnt them just fucking with random people

>>154964890
The Sentinels are a completely justified tool in combating the Mutant menace.

You know if Sadie had done her homework and read the comics she might see that yeah, Jean is pretty much just a villain. She's a villain we have to pretend to like, because she can delete the universe, but she's a villain nonetheless. But I'm guessing the movies are going to be similar to the comics where they show this Omega level mutant who might erase all sentient life on Earth during a nightmare and we just have to acknowledge it's attached to a pussy and can't be the villain.

>>154964890
The old man she forced into the street to get hit by a taxi is murder, nothing you say could make me agree that her actions were justified.

damn you guys hate women more than /tv/

I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS I HATE FOIDS

>>154964890
Is this not fully accurate to comic Jean?

>>154965821
Muties don't count

>>154965821
Women are all evil and get away with everything and the MCU glorifies it we have been hurt by these lessers we have everyone reason to be angry traumatized men get punished in the MCU like irl and evil irredeemable monsters like this bitch get away with shit!

>>154964890
This is sadly just accurate to the comic. MUTANT filth and more specifically Telepaths get away with EVERYTHING and gaslight you into being the bad guy. Get a helmet like Magneto folks defend yourselves from their corruption

to be fair stuff like having civilians walk into traffic was obviously just done for audience shock value
feels SLIGHTLY unfair to blame that on jean's character, though within the context of the story she was responsible

Why didn't she just tell Spider-Man about her sister instead of being cryptic about it?

>>154965299
This 100%

>>154965903
she didnt trust him, duh

>>154965814
The old man was a commie.

>>154965821
I hate evil people who get away with their crimes for being marketable. I see too much of it in real life for me to be ok with it in fiction. I hate it when they do it with male characters too. Fuck Loki and fuck Yondu.

>>154965903
Because when a Mutant is involved being clear about a situation is not a priority

>>154965903
How much worse is "you should just know without me telling you" when the woman is a telepath?

>>154965897
Its still an action done by the character willingly and maliciously. Nobody forced them to write Jean that way, they could have easily made her someone panicking and only doing things to get answers, clearly shown to hate doing it. They did that with the invisible chick in Ant Man 2 who also got away with her crimes, but she never enjoyed doing any of it and her intervention let the Pym family save their missing mother. So nobody complained when she became a new avenger.

>>154964950
Basically the concept of "Restorative Justice" apparently it works but it's also INCREDIBLY unsatisfying because one of the core concepts is to remove revenge and punishment instead focusing on rehabilitation and reconciliation, but like I said it's INCREDIBLY unsatisfying since you have to let go of shit that frankly should not be let go of.

>>154965903
Spider-Man was explicitly telling her that the DODC wanted to capture her because she was "dangerous", she had no reason to believe he wasn't already aware of her sister and was trying to help DODC kidnap her anyway

>>154965980
She's a telepath! She can read minds and has already shown no sympathy when fucking with the minds of civilians! She could literally just read his mind to find out what he knows!

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>>154965938
>>154965395
>>154965427

I hate Spider-Man movies and known nothing of this film, but all I have to say is…Loki knows he did and owned up to his mistakes, retard. He didn’t do anything wrong and is a good symbol for accountability, growth, and growing balls to be a real man. How dare you treat him like he’s one of the stupid bitches or assholes Marvel treats as blameless, he isn’t. He got punished, held himself accountable, and become more of a man than the faggot heroes you like. Go back and watch the series and stop being a bitch. I will NOT let you shut talk THE hero of the multiverse. Also there is no Lokiwank, schizos.

>>154966006
she notably could not get into peter's mind
which now that I think about it was probably a plot point mostly to stop the two of them from understanding each other earlier

>>154966006
Do you people watch the fucking movies you comment on? The literal opening action sequence of the film establishes she can't read Peter's mind.

>>154966008
I agree he's better than Wanda or Jean for the show having him face his actions somewhat. He got 2 seasons of a show to redeem himself, so he definitely has more credit. But he also murdered a fuckton of people, so he's not really a "hero".

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>>154966031
He’s a hero now, and he’s matured a lot, on top of having one of the best shows I’ve ever watched. I will not have people insult him. Loki is my idol and taught me how to be a man and grow balls.

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>>154965410
If Hitler were a women we wouldn't have....blank?

>>154966031
Do NOT respond to Lokifag, god damnit. Especially not positively about his husbando. It fuels him and he’ll never leave like we want him too.

melvin udall tried to warn us

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>>154965427
>>154965516
>>154965636
>>154965703
Women don't care all they see is man did something and they want to do the same.

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>>154965897
>She was responsible, but you can't blame her for it.
What?

https://mgtow.blog/

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>>154965742
Modern morality is based on Leftism all crimes are forgiven if you're leftist even rape and racism

https://mgtow.in/forums/forum/mgtow/index.html

>>154966247
these people died because the writer/director wanted a shocked moment where a guy is hit by a car, not because anyone thought this was part of jean's motivation

and I did say it's only "slightly" unfair

https://incels.is/

>>154965299
>>154965742
I feel like I'm fucking taking crazy pills sometimes. I see plots like these happen more and more in fiction, where characters do clearly morally reprehensible things, but because the writer just wants you to like them, it's a-okay. I'm not saying Jean is irredeemable, but you don't run an innocent guy over with a car and be "justified."

>>154956043

do it take care of this thread

>>154966269
But she still killed a guy.

>>154965897
>>154966269
Jean is not a person. She is a fictional character. There is no "unfairness" here. You don't have to defend "her." You are just pointing out obviously bad writing.

>>154951260

do not letting subhuman get away with thread like this do

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>>154964890
Not against mutants but jean is fucking mean

>>154966310
>>154966296
I’m not raiding a thread over a fictional ship, ESL faggot.

Hopefully one mutie is likeable so we can rally behind that one as /ourmugga/ to really make the hack writers/execs and fake fans seethe

>>154966309
yeah but people point to these moments to judge her character more harshly than she deserves
if there's some inconsistent writing (tonally or in terms of character), you can choose to not take everything at face value.
do I think jean as written in the movie is supposed to be the type of callous person that has random people walk in the street? no, I don't. even though that's what happens in the movie.

>>154966373
I don't get you. You are outright admitting that this is shittily written, but are forgiving it, because you think the writers didn't intend it to come off this way? Bro, this isn't a high school creative writing class. You can criticize the bad writing in a movie that made a billion dollars in a weekend.

>>154966405
I'm not defending the movie, I'm defending the character

>Spider-Man is kinda resistant to certain magic
>Spider-Man is resistant to telepathy

Wonder what else this Spider-Man is resistant to.

>>154966457
Morals for letting a serial killer and terrorist get away scott free

>>154966467
but enough about the punisher

>>154966435
That's even more fucking retarded?? She's not real, bro. She is not an existing person. What is there to defend? There is the writing within the movie itself, where she does several very evil things, but then the writers just want you to like her by the end. Because she's sad.

>>154966482
>She's not real, bro. She is not an existing person. What is there to defend?
are you 12?
why even discuss fiction or media in general if that's your view.

>>154966467
>>154966476
NTA, but you can legitimately mark this as a criticism against the writing of Peter in this movie. It's fucking weird he's buddy-buddy with Punisher. It feels like it wants us to ignore the specifics of who he is, and is instead just this rough and tumble vigilante with a heart of gold. The movie isn't written well, and I really hope the rose-tinted glasses for it wear off.

>>154966500
Are you?? Like genuinely, I can't comprehend your fucking mindset.
>if there's some inconsistent writing (tonally or in terms of character), you can choose to not take everything at face value.
What is this?? "Just ignore all the evil things she did, because that's not the intent they had with the character." Are you fucking stupid?

>>154966521
>"Just ignore all the evil things she did, because that's not the intent they had with the character.
not what I'm saying
if there's some inconsistency in the writing, what is the real character? the callous jean or the sympathetic jean? both? neither?
you can shrug and go "oh well guess the writing is bad" or you can put on your thinking cap and think what the movie is trying (and maybe failing) to do and then evaluate the things you are seeing with that in mind.

>>154966556
>you can put on your thinking cap and think what the movie is trying (and maybe failing)
That's exactly the fucking point, you goddamn retard. The movie wants you to find Jean to be this sympathetic character, who's only out for revenge because her sister got murdered. But in getting her revenge, she injures and potentially kills a multitude of people. And doesn't even kill the person who killed her sister! So it's all pointless. It's The Last of Us 2. Conveniently, another Sony product, lmao.
I don't need to fucking steel-man the writing of a $250 million dollar blockbuster movie. There is no reason for me to go, "well, okay, they screwed up a little, but the heart was there." No. Do better. Don't make a movie that actively pisses me of with shit like this, and this. >>154966507

>>154966598
I'm not asking you to defend the movie, I am asking you to seriously engage with the characters it depicts.

>>154966644
How am I not at this fucking point, you goddamn poindexter? Jean is a hypocritical entitled little twat, who thinks all her actions are justified because she's angry. And she didn't even get her revenge of the person who deserved it. This conversation made me change my mind about this movie. I thought it was the weakest of the MCU Spidey films, but still "okay." Nah. It's ass.

>>154965410
>By saying that everyone criticizing her actions is misogynistic, wouldn't you be implying that her actions were strictly brought forth from her being a woman?
Sounds misogynistic.

>>154964890
>I am a powerful telepath that can mind jack people
>Instead of using this on actual higher up officials that can direct me to the information I seek, I will use it to harass innocents and make people walk into oncoming traffic
Could they not have written her any better?

>>154966683
Yeah... this is where I'm at right now. I disliked Jean after the movie, and began to hate her the more I've thought about it and discussed with others.

One of the most aggravating thing to me is that she had the main antagonist dead to rights, his throat surrounded by shards of glass, paralyzed in place... and she just sat there like a petulant child screaming at him.

She had no hesitation walking innocent civilians into oncoming traffic, tossing young women off of ledges, strapping a senior citizen into a bomb-laden tank, and unleashing an enraged Hulk in a crowded skyscraper... but then she hesitated to kill the man that killed her sister? What the fuck? The only excuse for all of the bloodshed earlier in the film was that she was blinded with terror and rage over her sister BUT THEN SHE DOESN'T PULL THE FUCKING TRIGGER!

Fuck this writing. My only hope is that the next few Spider-Man movies don't feature the X-Men whatsoever because the Disney version of the team is an abortion. Can't believe I'm placing my hopes with Sony of all companies, please save us from Disney!

>>154966852
Around 2/3rds of the way through the movie, it feels like a switch got flipped. We had a genuinely irredeemable villain, but the moment we learn about Jean, it's like we're suddenly supposed to forget what she did in the first 90 minutes. Or make wild assumptions that she harmed NO ONE in her actions. No one got hurt by the tank. The old man literally walked off getting hit by the car. Everyone related to the DoDC lived, I guess? Just so by the end, Peter can say, she's "not a killer."

>>154966304
>But she still killed a guy.
we don't know that he died people survive getting hit by cars all the time, but yeah that scene was odd Spider-Man just watched even though it was obvious what was going to happen

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>>154966946
The first half of the movie was the best Mindworm film Marvel has ever made!

>>154965427
Yes? That's what the twitter post is saying, anon. The Bucky point is stupid, but all they're pointing out is that it's goofy to pretend like there's something especially wrong with waifuing Jean or otherwise waving away her crimes when people have done as much with characters who've done far worse.

>>154967053
Loki got arrested.

>>154967027
She drove a bomb into a building, and had no way of ensuring that the building was devoid of innocent people. The bomb wasn't even on a remote trigger, it was on a timer. It's a good thing a bunch of first responders weren't just standing around when it went off.

Not to mention that the delivery method was a fucking tank. Jean is apparently an amazing driver because a tank would tear through a taxi with little effort.

She also forced MJ to jump off a building AFTER learning that Spider-Man was struggling with his powers. It's pure luck that he was able to save MJ. Jean had no way of knowing that MJ would be safe.

When she froze everyone nearby that presumably included a hospital and people in immediate peril. Hopefully nobody was getting open heart surgery when she had her tantrum... or, hell, even a strong asthma attack frozen in time would suffocate a kid.

On a lesser note, she also possessed multiple cops, security staff and damage control guys throughout the film. She made them shoot each other and place themselves in harm's way. I know you can handwave that away by saying it was a casualty of war but, remember, we're supposed to hate John Walker for executing terrorists in cold blood. A security guard getting a bullet for doing there job should be reprehensible as well, no?

Literally all of Jean's actions could've been hand-waved if she was actually put in custody at the end of the film: showing that what she did wasn't deemed "justified." Then once she's arrested, show someone rolling up in a wheelchair, and imply Professor X can get her out of jail if she comes work with him. "To do some real good," or whatever.

>>154967212
Would’ve been an infinitely better outcome and setup. Unfortunately, the industry has a severe lack of talented writers for some reason.

>>154965135
>Lefies and Righties
Bitch, shut up.
>>154965978
I know what you mean. As a Quaker, I have to forgive people who do awful, awful things but it's really, very hard to do it. Well, I don't have to. With no true credo, we live by a guideline and nobody's going to excommunicate me for not forgiving someone but since we try to be a cohesive community, we tend to put the Peace Testimony into action just to show our Quakerness.
>>154966027
I didn't watch it but I knew that was an important plot device.
>>154966279
Exactly. For all the shit /co/ heaped on Grace from Infinity Train, at least she's working to remedy the bad shit she did. Okay, so maybe that's because she literally has to, but at least she's doing it.

>>154967154
>She drove a bomb into a building, and had no way of ensuring that the building was devoid of innocent people.
It didn't say she didn't try to kill people or didn't endanger people I said we didn't see anyone actually die
>She made them shoot each other
considering she had Punisher shoot them in the legs I assumed that is was something like that, yes I know you can kill people shooting them in the legs but movie logic
> we're supposed to hate John Walker
That hasn't been true since Thunderbolts

>>154967212
This is what they should have done. I would still not be entirely cool with her given she took things too far, but this ending makes sense. Have the cop lady helping Spider-Man the whole movie bring her in, the audience trusts she won’t treat her wrong.

>>154967064
We're talking about the audience reaction to the characters, doofus.

>>154967687
Yeah, the Loki who got tossed around by The Hulk, and ultimately defeated, until he slowly got a redemption arc. If Loki managed to partially destroy New York, and walk away cause he was "angry" over something, people probably wouldn't like him as much.

>>154964890
>Thread full of Lokischizos and “oppressed” incel schizos who assume everyone who points out they’re retards are “foids or simps”
>The faggots in the last thread we’re genuinely discussing doxxing the actress

I hate MCUfags as much as I hate the MCU it’s all cancer.

>>154967723
Kys Lokifag. Your husbando is a canon faggot and so are you.

>>154964950
Only bad stories do that though.I don't oppose the idea of redemption but you have to pay your dues for what you did first. Whether that is with suffering, prison, or even a heroic sacrifice, it depends on the character and story, but something has to be paid. Otherwise is just retarded fiction aimed to not piss off anyone because the writer is a coward.

>>154968129
I don't like Loki. He's just different from Jean, because he was clearly a villain who lost and got punished for his actions.

>>154967723
>>154966072
>>154966008
is this what u talk about at family reunions before u shit yourself?

>>154968158
Oh, my bad, carry on. (And hopefully the actual Sharkfag/Lokifag/TDTEBUfag whatever he is….gets banned soon)

>>154964890
Trying to justify being horrible people towards innocent people because of what they have. True motto of the victimized brotherhood.

>No quarter was given to me, so why should I be so accommodating?

Again, living weapons are not the same or refugees or migrants seeking shelter or help. As always; Marvel and Disney always misses the mark.

I don't care about morality, all moral debate are non-sense and you should grow up and adopt moral error theory.
Just give me good stories and no sad teenagers stories.

>>154964890
not readin all that shit nigga but i am gonna repeat some of a post I wrote the other day . what is with modern fiction and just not having villains anymore? there's a lot of "this person is the villain but they're not all bad" or "this person is the villain but they only did those bad things because of [insert reason here]" I'm getting kind of sick of it. What happened to villains who were villains and did bad things simply because they wanted to? I feel like a lot of movies/shows/comics etc these days are doing shit like this and idk I find the more willing to be bad villains WAY more entertaining. The MCU made skrulls just le misunderstood and I don't watch rings of power but I heard they did some shit where actually the orcs are just downtrodden and they have families too! Who is writing this shit and why? Why can't villains just be bad people and actually interesting anymore. I don't want to get into culture war bullshit but I know part of it is people wanting to mirror real life and how "uh actually those people are simply vulnerable and so what they did t wasnt all bad" fuck that this is fiction

>>154966507
Peter works with Wolverine, Blade, Deadpool and many other professional killers pretending to be superheroes. Punisher is just a professional killer that has the balls to stay his role without the permission to hero brand himself.

>>154967212
The problem is that she had just been in custody. Legit, legal, authorized-by-the-state custody. And that didn't exactly go well, for her or her sister.

Her being detained and handed off to another organization would be wildly tone-deaf after the discovery of how corrupt Damage Control was. Sending her to a regular prison would require using the inhibitor tech, and the movie was clearly against that.

I haven't watched the film yet but reading discussions about it I wonder: why couldn't it just be a Jean and Peter team up against the evil organization?

I don't know, you could make it so Jean's ability to contact and help Peter is limited cause she's still in their custody or something, frequently drugged or in artificial coma so she can only "borrow" bodies to even talk to someone. Maybe there's an enemy telepath interfering as well. But that's it: he's on the outside, she's on the inside and they work together to save Jean and her sister. Why turn her into antagonist? No one benefits from this as a character.

>>154968656
By the end of the movie Damage Control is dismantled, so its clear it was made without the government or anyone else knowing what they really were doing. And as said before, let the good lady cop handle it. Jean doesn’t have to go to jail, but she can’t roam around freely after all she’s done. Taking her to Charles pre MCU mutant merge is a perfect spot to have her repent for her crimes.

>>154968107
The actress did a great job, is the writing that’s ass

>>154968201
>>No quarter was given to me, so why should I be so accommodating?
Leftist/LGBTQ+ mindset in a nutshell, whether it’s true or not

>>154968107
>MCUfags displaying any moral compass whatsoever
You're clearly mentally unwell, but good to hear you're suffering.

>>154965831
Jesus, anon. Read something with her in that's not by Bendis, and something from before him, not from later writers following Bendis' take on her.

>>154965636
Buckey killing people while brainwashed is worse than Jean brainwashing people to kill each other people or themselves.

>>154968762
>so its clear it was made without the government or anyone else knowing what they really were doing
The United States Department of Damage Control. It wasn't some independent corporation that the feds contracted, it was part of the government. Originally it was part of SHIELD, but that changed after the first Avengers movie.

The fact that no one outside of Damage Control knew how evil they were doesn't change the fact that there now does not seem to be anyone trustworthy who can handle incarcerating supervillains. The best option is arguably The Raft, but unless Spidey's inhibitor tech was used, she'd be a massive security risk to bring there.

As for Charles, in the proposed scenario, he doesn't step in until she's a prisoner, so that doesn't solve the problem. As for Spidey's contact with the police, I have no idea how Detective DeWolff could help handle things, or why she'd even want to, given what happened.

The movie clearly portrayed giving the inhibitor tech to the government as Bad. And our antagonist for most of the movie turned out to have been radicalized by actions of a government agency that was actively hiding its activities and otherwise acting with impunity. Even if she has had some character growth and will stop throwing innocents into cars, there's still no reason for her to trust the government to put her in cuffs.

>>154968260
not reading allat faggot

>>154964950
Anime and Manga have some seriously messed up ideas about "morality" too.

This is an unfortunate symptom of the times, where perceived victimhood and self centered egoism have combined to create a complete lack of moral fiber and ability to factor in the suffering of others when considering one’s actions.

>>154969245
How so?

It seems like this film’s development may have had something in common with Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. That movie was supposed to have Nightmare as a villain, and the story wasn’t working so the writer just pitched making Wanda the villain from the beginning, since Feige already intended her to become a villain again anyway.

It seems like BND, while more popular with audiences, had some of the same problem, they went through other villain ideas before just deciding to go with Jean as the antagonist who can only be talked down, never actually beaten by the hero.

Probably similar reasoning: Jean is going to go bad eventually so why not start her out bad and do the bad-good-bad arc again?

But at least Wanda started out as a sort-of-villainous counterpart to Jean in the comics.

>>154970608
>That movie was supposed to have Nightmare as a villain, and the story wasn’t working so the writer just pitched making Wanda the villain from the beginning, since Feige already intended her to become a villain again anyway.
IIRC it was more like the writer of MOM knew this is what Feige's plan for her was, and wanted to be the one to do it then rather than someone else get to write it later. There was no voice of reason suggesting to not do it at all.

>Probably similar reasoning: Jean is going to go bad eventually so why not start her out bad and do the bad-good-bad arc again?
Because Fox already did it twice, so why do it again? Again, no voice of reason suggesting to just not do this.

>But at least Wanda started out as a sort-of-villainous counterpart to Jean in the comics.
People mistakenly think she was villainous and it keeps happening in AUs and adaptations because X-Men fandom literally tells newcomers not to read the 1960s material, so they end up mistakenly thinking she was an actual villain.

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>>154966507
Tbh I don't care about Peter not going WAAAAAAAA DONT KILL PEOPLE PUNISHER
that shit sucks every time in the comics. its so ass, peter taking a bullet for norman osborn is retarded too. let spidey blow up the finisher as a treat bro. I prefer him having a more flexible no kill rule compared to say idk batman.
Spidey doesnt kill people because he's genuinely just a kind person and can avoid it given his webbing allows for incapacitation without lethality. He just doesnt kill people because he's not that kind of person.

>>154970976
>Consider that Jean is even worse in the comics.
Read comics from before Bendis. Please read comics from before Bendis.

>And frankly even during the first run of X-Men with the creator of this brand Jean was doing immoral things, she's always been shitty.
What the hell do you think she did in Lee/Kirby X-Men that was so bad? She didn't even have telepathy to be capable of abusing it back then, she was just a telekinetic, and not that powerful.

>>154964890
yeah Jean was a monstrous psychopath but I still ship her and Peter

>>154964890
Women literally think "I only did it because of my flaws!" is a justification for their behavior, not just a cause.
>"I drank a handle of whiskey and shat my pants, but you have to understand; in my brain, it was totally justified."

>>154964890
wait, so, they are implying that Hitler was right?

>>154965978
ultimately the emotional desire to see people you hate get punished is an expression of that hatred, not an expression of justice.

the purpose of justice can't be to satisfy a basal desire for schadenfreude and remain justice. i feel like the sorts of people who want heaven to be a place where you "get to" watch others suffer in hell would have never belonged on the side with "spectator seating" in the first place.

it pragmatic and neutral terms, the theoretical function of "justice" is to prevent behaviors deleterious to the functioning of society, and restore as much of what those behaviors damaged as possible after the fact. individual punishment is actually incredibly bad and inefficient at achieving this, compared to less emotionally "satisfying" things like targeting root motivating causes. it's not even very good at deterrence.

specifically in Jean's case, justice needs to be repairing the damage she caused to people and preventing her from doing it again. this would mean a mandatory inhibitor, at least for a while, in any sane system.

>>154964890
>"In her brain, it's totally justified."

Yeah, that's a funny thing about murderers and psychopaths: they tend to think their actions are justified.

>>154965978
>>154972280
Part of the point of justice is a form of retribution, though? If you had a button that would instantly make a criminal into a productive member of society, there is still a point to them facing the consequences of their actions, even if they immediately would be normal people after pushing that button. There needs to be an assurance in society that inflicting pain and suffering is not acceptable. It doesn't need to be barbaric. I'm not saying stone them to death. But there's a reason we put kids on time out for hitting their sibling.

>>154965410
Loki did terrible things, comes to regret his actions, and takes accountability for what he did -ultimately making a noble sacrifice to atone.

Yondu is the same, though on a much smaller, more personal scale.

Bucky was brainwashed the entire time and isn't truly responsible for his actions, but nonetheless takes accountability for them.

Jean committed murder, attempted murder, and the mindrape of thousands of innocent people with no regard for their feelings or safety. She did so willingly and gleefully, and she did so completely unnecessarily; she could have gotten everything she wanted quicker and easier by brainhopping up the Damage Control ladder without endangering a single innocent person. She does not show regret for her actions, does not take accountability for her actions, and receives no punishment or comeuppance.

>>154972428
my favorite part is how she goes into Peter's mind to relive a memory of Peter's where she makes Aunt May tell her she's a great person. What a fucking unlikable person. If she was ugly, no one would be defending her.

Scott will fix her.

>>154972346
>Part of the point of justice is a form of retribution, though?
nope. retribution isn't deterrence - that's just the PR for what is ultimately an exercise in theater for schadenfreude (or labor acquisition, in the case of stuff like private prisons). one of the most robustly statistically established facts about criminal justice is that punitive measures don't effectively deter the things they supposedly deter... like at all.

i think it's easiest to swallow that uncomfortable pill if you think of it like this: thieves, murderers, and rapists aren't doing it because they haven't seen other thieves, murderers, and rapists suffer enough.

targeting the causes directly is more complicated, and in some cases may threaten profitable status quos, so as long as that's off the table, impotent "tOuGh oN cRiMe" bullshit is what you're fed as "justice," and what actually causes declines in crime rates are other things that affect the root causes.

and most people aren't actually kept from doing heinous things by fear of reprisal from the law. it's pretty much only psychopaths who (potentially) have that mindset - the VAST majority of human beings are relatively amicable by default.

>>154972451
>my favorite part is how she goes into Peter's mind to relive a memory of Peter's where she makes Aunt May tell her she's a great person
media literacy is truly dead

>>154964890
>normie opinion is purge the mutant
>a few days later a thousand damage control articles come out defending muties

I mean i joked that coastal liberals are degenerate mutants that live in sewers, but i think it might actually be true now.

>>154965135
>They believe that people with convictions are actually just lying and have some other goal in mind, as that's how they themselves think.

Anon, neurotypicals are like that, yeah. They are inherently authoritarian. A logical moral code that people follow when it isnt convient is something autistic people do

>>154972911
Please elaborate to me how I'm wrong. The whole point of that scene is to make her feel better.

>>154972897
No. Part of the reason we jail people is not purely to rehabilitate them. It is to make them pay a sentence for their negative acts. That is part of the process of justice. If you rob a store, and put a gun up to a teller, you are endangering their lives, and traumatizing them. There is some recompense needed for those actions.

>>154973029
again, this is an incorrect belief about what punishment actually accomplishes, but i guess i can't help everybody.

>>154964890
>"they just hate us for being special!!"
>makes random people jump off buildings, get hit by cars and shoot each other because her sister was caught after possessing civilians in a park
I never paid attention to x-men, but there is no way it's this idiotic in the comics

>>154973332
You have a very lofty, academic view of punishment, that just simply isn't the reality of how things are done. You get put in jail because you did something bad, and need to pay back the people and society for your actions. Like I said earlier, with the "button that instantly makes you a model citizen." Even if you had assurance that they would never do anything bad ever again, they still need to pay for the bad things they already did.

>>154964950
You missed something
In Invincible there so many other problems that sure, Earth should be mad. But they dont really have any recourse. Viltrumites are too strong and anyond on their side isnt much better. Allan was going to gas the Earth
And most of the other aliens would have done what the viltrumites did, its just the viltrumites did it better
>No one is mad at Amazon or Wal-mart, they're just mad they didnt think to do it first
Steven Universe is that though
So you're right about that

>>154964890
What is her backstory, actually? Is she from another universe or some crap?

>>154973413
Nope, she's MCU native.
There's a flashback in the movie where she and her sister, Sara, are practicing mind controlling people for fun in a park. We learn that their mother left them when their powers activated. When they split up to get food, Damage Control swoop in and traq Sara to kidnap her. Sara, before blacking out, knocks out Jean with her powers to keep her from trying to rescuing her and attracting attention to her.
Damage Control are experimenting on Sara to learn how her powers work and hopefully replicate them. The strain from the experiments is killing Sara. In a daze, she looks at the ceiling and sees a damaged label on an VentMax air vent. As she dies, she deliriously sends Jean a telepathic massage: V-Max.
Jean, unaware that Sara is dead, figures out that Damage Control has her sister and repeatedly mind controls people into attacking Damage Control locations, trying to find out what V-Max means and how it can lead her to Sara. Spider-Man starts intervening, so Jean mind controls people into dangerous situations to try to get him to stop.

Telepathy of the mind manipulation variety tends to create self-righteousness, as you can directly make yourself think you are doing the right thing, bypassing reason and reflection.

>>154964950
The Viltrumites entire race got raped down to like 30 of em remaining though.

>>154973801
Yes, i saw the movie, but mutts weren't a thing in the MCU universe before the flock of them came in

>>154972897
>>154973332
Okay. We change the system so no consequences are necessary. One flip of the magic morality switch that assures they've learned their lesson (don't know how you think this happens without some suffering on their part, it's not like they're electing to be rehabilitated, force is involved to some degree). After that, they're free to go, no other consequences. Not even an apology to the victim and/or their loved ones. After all, what purpose does that serve? Any desire for an apology is just the family not really "getting" your lofty ideals of justice.

Why would someone they hurt, unsastisfied with the "justice" that's been done, not just seek them out to harm or kill them? Kill the person who killed your loved one in a robbery and got to walk out the door with check, root cause addressed? Your child molested and they walk out with medication and counseling (no sex offender registry, that's just schadenfraude theatre)? After all, they know they won't receive any real suffering either. In fact, they have no reason to harm anyone else ever again, it was only to avenge their child, and it's done now. You could even say the root cause of the crime was the harm done to them by the aggressor. How do you solve THAT kind of root cause? Or the larger root cause of the justice system not being satistactory to the public at large? Widespreed systemic failure.

Atonement should be a part of restorative justice. Do you think an insincere apology suffices, or should there be some manner of making sure a heinous act receives some level of making sure aggressor feels the weight of their actions?

Also, I'm willing to hazard a guess that for many crimes of passion, impulse, or greed/lust, you're right that people aren't thinking of jail time, it does nothing as a deterent. Most crimes, maybe. But you really think this is the case for premeditated ones? Murdering someone you hate, assassinating a public figure?

>>154974063
>But you really think this is the case for premeditated ones? Murdering someone you hate, assassinating a public figure?
Not to mention plenty of people would probably agree that the reason corporations and the rich keep doing awful things is because they never have to worry about actually facing jail time.

How do you rehabilitate someone who doesn't care about harming others? Not even talking true psychopaths. The only reason they don't just harm to get what they want is the threat of consequences.

Slap the wrist, they just do it again. Systemic slap on the wrist, widespread harm. Isn't that already the consensus on that?

>>154974063
>>154974098
NTA, just adding onto this wacky hypothetical. Let's say I rob someone. Straight up just go into their wallet, and take $500 out. Then the "be a good person" switch is flipped. Do I just get to keep it? Returning the money would be "retribution," right?

>>154964890
Funny how killing people to torture Spider-Man was literally Doc Ock at his most villainous. But cute redhead gets a pass.

>>154965135
>>154967210
>>154972967
With Great Power there must also come Great Responsibility?

>>154965928
You joke but I'm like 70% certain that if this gets asked they'll justify it with 'that guy was a scumbag'
>oh, the guy I made walk into traffic? He touched kids. Yeah I saw it when I went into his mind, you know I'd never do anything like that with just any normal person right? I just happened to grab a child predator when we were talking and figured, hey, kill two birds with one stone

>>154974287
Part of "restorative justice" working is the actual restoration, making the victim whole again. Your $500 example is easy to fix by returning it (though it doesn't fix knock-on effects of the crime like lost opportunities during the period of being deprived, emotional distress, etc.).

But for the "greedy executives" scenario, paying even a cent more than was profited would be "punitive", which the genius said was a big no-no. Losing their position would be too. Guess it's a good thing the magic morality switch exists huh? If we weren't able to somehow magically tell they've been reformed, you might be tempted to think that if they suffer no real consequences, they'll just keep trying again, huh?

But money's too easy. How do you "make whole" the rape, crippling, or murder of yourself or a loved one? How do you handle the people responsible for things that have large distributed harms that can't ever realistically be fixed?
>Oh, I'll never pump crack into black neighborhoods again
>So sorry for lying about and accelerating climate change
>I now realize killing millions of Jews was bad :(

>>154964905
Pretty much the case with all redeemed/anti-hero female villains.

>"Poison Ivy was just an eco-warrior, her views weren't too bad and she was right!"
>"...she's a psychopath who would see no probablem in mincing up school children to use as fertiliser. Plus her fatal roofie powers, remember that time he kept Bruce in a rape dungeon for months on end?"

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Women can never do any wrong

>>154965410
Funny how she didn't mention Wanda

>>154965427
Yondu had consequences that lasted until his death. Loki was imprisoned and humiliated and then ultimately died (parallel version is just stuck for all time on a chair).

>>154964950
aren't the viltrumites virtually exterminated, explicitly for their actions against other species, and then, when they come back, brutally crushed and forced to conform to the protagonist's morality when they try to start shit again?

>>154964890
There was nobody left that can make her accountable by the end though. She's not redeemed or atoned by the end of BND, that's for a later flick.

>>154974960
Redeemed for what?

The problem with every X-men story is that the best solution for everyone involved is always to kill them all as quickly as possible.

Maybe like the frog guy can stick around in a zoo or something, never spreading his mutie genes into the genepool, but all the Omega levels absolutely have to go. They will kill us all.

>>154974965
Invading innocent people's minds and hijacking their bodies? Taking perverse pleasure in it while fucking with them? Purposefully harming people and putting people in direct risk of severe injury and death (somehow miraculously avoided, but not due to her making sure of it)?

>>154975011
this schtick is boring

>>154975018
She saved Spider-Man's life, that's gotta count for something. Imagine what more lives she can save if she's not being mindraped to death like her sister.

>>154975057
>imagine her potential future redemption
guess that's all we've got, huh?

good enough for all those people she harmed, i hope!

i am glad she at least saved the life of the guy who, despite how she tried to hurt him and his loved one, did so much to help her that even the death she saved him from was literally due to a bullet he took for her, the bullet that was a last resort to stop her city-wide psychic meltdown

>>154964950
>The Viltrumites are never held accountable for their actions. They just get to go “gee, sorry” and it’s a-ok they’ve terrorized the galaxy forever
Yeah, cause they are near Invincible, It's not like you can easily lock them up.

>>154975205
Which she had full control over, of course. Not something forcibly brought out of her with the mindrape chair. Obviously a child with 0 training can be expected to act like a military professional.

>>154975342
with great power

comes great responsibility

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Pretty sure we already did this exact dance and song before, do zoomers have super short term memory or something

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>>154975342
Just because you have the capacity to do fucked up shit doesn't mean you HAVE to do fucked up shit. It is called morality
>Woah man i had a knife, what did you expect me to do? Not stab everyone in sight?

>>154965410
>lesbian pfp
I hate mtf trannies so much

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>>154975555
TRVTH QUADS

>>154964890
If this was Mindworm, everybody would call him a villain.

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>>154964890
Loki is the most well written and sympathetic character in marvel and the perfect example of masculinity and how it gets punished, anyone who disagrees is a faggot. Loki didn’t deserve anything done to him. But at least he’s TOAA all now trapped or not….. He should be a symbol for men everywhere

TOTAL MUTIE DEATH

>>154973365
>"they just hate us for being special!!"
anon she was clearly referring to them kidnapping her sister well before she started doing those kind of things

>>154966256
They do this and simultaneously claim the past was "more tolerant" and also that literally all social constructs are objectively evil and only existed from like, Christian morality and hypocrisy.

I can't even imagine being one, their whole ideology is just based on lying to themselves about the past in opposite directions at the same time. The past was somehow much more tolerant and gays were way more accepted so it is "weird' that we resist this, but also somehow the past was less tolerant and evil and we should hate it and move forward because it's the current year because to do otherwise is literally Hitler and Christian violence.

Hitlerism is pretty simple in comparison and I don't have to lie about anything, I just want things to be in the common self interest of my nation and ethnogroup.

>>154975455
NTA I dont know, as someone whos genuinely once grappled with whether omnicide is the morally correct thing for me to do, because Im the only being in existence who needs to exist, and everyone else is thus better off dead, Im somewhat sympathetic towards nihilistic worldviews that struggle with asserting the value of human life, as I can understand why someone would believe in such extreme beliefs, without them necessarily being irredeemable, looking from a deontological rather than a consequentialist perspective, as I believe the former to be a better judge of ones character than the latter, despite the latter being an overall superior moral framework as a guide for what ones actions should be.
Of course she is also sadistic, not just nihilistic, but the sadism comes in the form of feeding her ego by proving to herself and someone she considers a kindred spirit, how her worldview of people like them are incapable of a normal life, and thus should embrace being the monsters inside of themselves and deny their humanity, so its more of a case of that she gets off to hurting/torturing this one specific individual, rather than she gets off to causing pain in general, for the general populace she merely does not care about them, to the point she doesnt give a shit if they die as long as it advances her goals.
Of course this isnt sympathetic to someone who hasnt had to grapple with such extreme morality before, and the movie is definitely doing a terrible job if it is attempting to whitewash her crimes as sympathetic to the general populace, instead of continuing to portray her as a still genuinely evil person who happens to have gotten strongly attached to an individual she personally relates to who happens to have a strong moral compass, causing her to cease her evil endeavours due to finding some meaning in honouring that other persons convictions.

>>154972989
1. the content of the scene is jean entering the mind of peter and relieving a memory that peter has been relieving the entire movie, one where aunt may tells him to hold on, that he's loved and not alone and special no matter what happens
2. the point of the scene is that this is something jean needed to hear in this moment with a side dish of it coming from a mother figure, something she lacked

she doesn't "make" anyone do anything. she happens to be there and because this is a movie, things happen to fit thematically.

>>154972989
anon Peter chose to show her that memory she didn't go digging for something like that it's the whole reason Peter let her in is mind

>>154965978
So what happens when the victim doesn't want restorative justice and demands the perpetrator be punished? Do they get shamed into forgiveness.

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>>154976651
That is a lot of words just to say "I am a narcissist who cannot grasp common sense and has no vision for achievable goodness man can reach for"
Hitler was right to put faggots like you into camps

>>154973365
>but there is no way it's this idiotic in the comics
its worse

>>154976712
Hitlerism loves to talk about the Ubermensch a lot, completely failing to realize how the Ubermensch was just cope Nietzsche came up with about how eventually through natural selection, humanity evolve into a version of itself that will be capable of asserting its own meaning despite the lack of objective meaning, and thus escaping the nihilistic worldview espoused by Schopenhauer, without him having to actually bother refuting it in the first place.
Of course what Nietzsche failed to realize was that Schopenhauer wasnt an efilist, as he was intelligent enough to recognize how life blatantly continues after death, a direct consequence of "The Will to Live", and thus killing yourself of attempting to engage in omnicide is counterproductive, as it just promotes more suffering, not creating less, and the only way forward was to follow in the way of the buddhists, and deny "The Will to Live", and thus Schopenhauers philosophy would not lead to our doom, as he or as you seem to believe, except if dumbasses misinterpreted his philosophy, which unfortunately with the likes of Mainlander, and modern anti-natalists and efilists, it does appear as if people really failed to realize how "The Will to Live" isnt something one can escape through suicide.

>>154976552
What was her sister doing when she was taken? Hmm?

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>>154964890
>Sure the villainous mutant group and one of our own members of X-men leveled the city and killed hundreds of people, but I don't understand why the world governments are afraid of us?!
>Why is the world so unfair to me? I pinky promised I won't hurt any innocents, its not my fault I got possessed by evil space god and now have the motivation and capability to destroy planets!
>Demanding a superpower registry for the most powerful mutants is just evil and wrong and nazi camps!
X-men is like the teenage angst audience it used to appeal to: Cool when you were younger but gets more and more retarded the older you get.

>>154975057
>She saved Spider-Man's life,
how did she do that anyway
how does stopping someone from moving stop the blood from flowing
or are we to assume her mindcontrol extends to the cellular level and she like, stopped the bleeding or whatever?

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So it is okay for Jean to mooch off Peter's feel good memories but when Dr Ock did it he was the bad guy huh? Curious

all women are monster no human no accountability parasitic. I am gay because e this I less likely to get rape abuse and men are usually innocent gentle and I consider all straight ment hypnotize by pussy abuse

>>154977007
I assume she manually breathed for him/ forced his body to function and all that jack

>>154977011
I think what kind of memories these were is relevant

foid reason apple from tree eaten and get man in trouble cause so much trouble for innocent humans (men are the only humans) since day one and zero reason existing for them we get abuse rape and they get away and no one cares we are oppressed

Was there any reason why he was doing a The Other in relation to mutants showing up?

>>154968149
punishment like that only makes sense externally when you don't care about the person that's facing it. prison for a serious crime is essentially spiritual death, your life and potential is over. it makes sense for society to impose it of course but for the perpetrator there's no growth or redemption there. no one grows as a person by spending 10+ years in a cube.

>>154964990
why did she even go for blasting in with a tank? Or busting Scorpion out?

She can almost instantly jump across people within 30 ft of any other person, in one of the densest population centers, and instantly read their minds. She could have infiltrated Damage Control covertly with almost zero effort and zero risk and reach the head honcho without anyone knowing anything was amiss.

Jean is a hot mentally ill redhead so she can do whatever she wants and it's all morally justified. Yes, this is how it works.

>>154972897
Our want of retribution and "settling the score" is a literal evolutionary measure that has been naturally selected into us. So saying it doesn't do anything is incredibly, heinously wrong. The "truth" of how to handle criminals aside, trying to make people believe that want for justice is wrong is like trying to make them believe that their amygdala waking them up when they feel water is wrong. It's a deeply flawed way to look at the world.

I think we should want to punish people who do bad things. Whether we should is a different things, but I fully believe everyone should want them punished for our collective good.

>>154964990
the bomb was only for the damage control center not sure how many of them were innocent

>>154977647
cute makes right

>>154977764
I fucking hate empathy as a basis for morality, both because I firmly believe how all human actions should be guided by rational philosophical principles, as I see our ability to reason as what differentiates us from the common beast, who also display the capacity for empathy, but lack reason like we do, and thus I see humanity deriving its morality from its ability to reason rather than from empathy as a prerequisite for humanity to truly prove itself as a species of greater moral agency/capacity than any other animal on Earth.
And the second reason is because not every person feels empathy, or at least doesnt feel it very strongly and is thus very weakly guided by it, I myself am amongst the latter where I only ever feel empathy in regards to thoughts of killing or seriously maiming another person, and even then it is rather easy to overcome if I wanted to, and thus I am of the opinion how society that bases its morality upon empathy fails these people and dooms them to either a life of criminality and anti-social behavior, or to a life of loneliness and isolation, wherein they feel disconnected from everyone else in their surrounding as they find themselves incapable of living their life according to principles that guide others.

>>154978129
lot of words to say you have autism
all our high-mined ideas about law and justice are derived from empathy, the desire to protect your loved ones.

>>154977764
Yeah, and yet the natural impulses are often faulty or stupid. Punishment for crimes also has long since been shown to barely if at all impact bad behaviors in the end. So many crimes are either crimes of passion, crimes of desperation or the would-be criminals think they're such a galaxy brained master thieves that they won't be caught anyway, so in all cases the potential punishment is never considered.

Many countries still have death penalty, cutting off the hand, infamously brutal prisons, yet they still have loads of criminals.

>>154965410
Did any of them, for no actual pragmatic reason, just shits and giggles, control an innocent civilian and let them get run over?

>>154978704
to be fair I think she was expecting Spider-Man to save him and he had been standing there for a few seconds and that Taxi driver was still going full speed so he deserves some of the blame too

>>154978610
Compassion =/= empathy, I value and care about others, because I realize that their lives have value as rational thinkers, and because their presence provides me with certain things that makes me invested in promoting their wellbeing, as doing so is in my own self-interest.
All empathy is, or more specifically emotional empathy, is a herd mentality that activates dopamine release signals within neurotypicals brains as a result of engaging within pro-social behaviour, and thus despite all the waxing neurotypicals do in praise of empathy, empathy does not in any capacity make you any more selfless than an individual without empathy, it merely brainwashes you to to instinctively prefer pro-social behaviour, which works well for those who have that, but is terrible for those of us who for whom that mechanism is impaired, and is especially frustrating to me because it is rather simple to show why pro-social behaviour is an objective moral good from a purely logical and philosophical perspective, which would immensely help those who lack that, and would also show great maturity for humanity as a species wherein we are shown capable of developing our own values through pure reason, instead of through brainwashing that nature had imposed upon us.
Not to mention how the way empathy evolved in humans is inherently tribalistic, and results in active antagonism towards those the empathy signals view as "other", which results in pointless conflicts that create immense suffering for all groups involved, making it inherently unreliable even for a 100% neurotypical society, without even taking neurodivergent folk into account.

>>154978129
Nature gave us logic to work (first forage, then hunt) and emotion to act within ourselves. This is how we've evolved and the fact that it is means this was the easiest path to get us here. We'll keep acting like this because this is how we're wired. You yourself are neurodivergent and autistic and are just acting according to how you are wired. But trying to get the rest of humanity to act within YOUR framework is a sisiyphean task that will just keep hurting you.

>>154978680
You on the other hand are too stupid to even grasp what I'm talking about, I pointed out twice I don't care about your point of discussion but you still repeat it to me. Why?

>>154964962
>Women
>Don't understand accountability
I mean, anon, that's such a realistic writing I'm shocked it ended up in Marvel of all places.

>>154977911
Anon there's no penalty that involves getting bombed. But how about the elderly woman in the tank? Or you think she would've survived the exploding vehicle?

>>154964890
That is accurate to the comics so

>>154966279
Most people believe morals are subjective or aren't real at all. It's not a surprise writing is starting to reflect that.

>>154964890
She threw a guy in front of oncoming traffic just to aura farm.
Anyone who thinks she didn’t deserve the bullet is a retard

>>154979813
Most of the time a woman does something nefarious and fucked up, they blame it on their astrology sign
>Oh, I’m sorry. I’m just such an Ares

>>154976829
it does seem odd you think the buddhists aren't the poster children for half-baked philosophical pablum

>>154980469
to be fair that he was standing there for a few seconds before being hit she may have not actually known he was going to get hit and the driver clearly didn't even attempt to stop or slow down and deserves some of the blame, don't get me wrong she endangered people through out the movie and Frank was right to try and shoot her

>>154964890

For the first hour of the movie she is a total menace to every random innocent person she takes full advantage of.

If the movie had any understanding of her powers she'd have stopped completely the moment she jumps into Frank's body. "This guy has issues!" gets completely downplayed when you consider how much he has lost and she is still trying to find her sister who she believes may still be alive. Frank is a thousand times more broken mentally than she is.

>>154981314
yes, if I have one real complaint with the movie it's how inconsistent it handles jean
like, it's very obvious you're meant to sympathise with the movie: that's the climax, that's what peter does. but she's also shown to do a lot of things that are frankly unforgivable. they either had to tone down some of her more callous possessions or put some more disclaimers on her resolution.

The mind control simps are out in force. Involve a firearm or a penis and all this forced ambiguity goes out the window.

>>154981392
it's very obvious you're meant to sympathise with jean*

>>154981256
I don’t know why she would make him walk backwards instead of just leaving his body if she didn’t want to kill him
She killed that dude just to look cool in front of Peter before they actually met. Literally just trying to aura farm

>>154981256
Bait

>>154981392
I genuinely just don't understand the point of the scene with the old man getting hit by a car. Why include that? It feels like it came from another draft of the script where Jean is just a bad guy. There is no asterisk to her actions. She seemingly allowed an innocent old man to get ran over in traffic. He's not related to the villains. He didn't act rude, or do anything.

>>154982436
there will be an excuse down the line that Jean read his mind and it turned out the dude was a notorious serial killer or rapist who never got caught, justifying her getting him run over

>>154980469
>>154981256
>>154981486
>>154981639
it's just an awkward scene they overlooked this movie went through many rewrites don't think too hard about it

>>154982484
Nah, fuck that. Jean is a monster and human rights should only be for humans

>>154982436
>Why include that? It feels like it came from another draft of the script where Jean is just a bad guy
I have genuinely started to think that.
And even if not, I am convinced not a single writer working on this scene thought if this is something Jean would or should do. The only thought was "hey it would make for a pretty shocking scene if the villain has a guy walk into traffic"

>>154964890
I agree anndd spidermans justice is very straight forward and sound in the movie i found it illogical he didnt want her to be arrested it makes no real sense. The only explanation is getting shot threw it all off and he didnt feel right pursuing her for arrest after that.

I could make a /pol/ argument here that society is reinforcing the idea of past conflicts justify horrible actions today due to current year actions by certain groups to maintain their power

MCU internal contradiction
>Iron Man is justified in being mad at mind controlled winter soldier
but
>you are not justified at being mad at mind controller who kills for her objectives
???

>>154982484
yeah I guarantee they will handwave the guy getting hit by the taxi as survived and recovered

>>154982719
She didn't even accomplish her objective, which is the crazy fucking thing. She endangers and potentially kills people, but stops at killing the guy who actually killed her sister. At that point, if I was the old man who got hit by a car, I'd be offended. "Oh, you stop BEFORE getting actual revenge? Thanks, I guess I am in a full body cast for no actual reason."

>>154982674
>he didnt want her to be arrested
her originally did but the people who he handed her over to turned out to be corrupt and had done cruel experiments on her sister (that eventually killed her) for her power. Then he gets shot taking a bullet for her so between no time to do anything after stopping her and the problem of how do you hand her over to authorities without her ending up back in some fucked up lab getting experimented on

>>154982764
Her objective was saving her sister, by finding out what V-MAX is. Killing the head of DODC wasn't an objective, and she probably wanted to torture him in the same chair in which her sister got experimented on. Killing him comes later.

>>154964890
How much do you think the script writers regret having jean get that construction worker hit by a car. (I don't even think he died. Traffic never moves very fast in New York.)

>>154983390
I mean she stopped because of Peter, who told her she wasn't a "killer." When it's like... didn't you watch her toss MJ off a building?

>>154983516
>Traffic never moves very fast in New York.)
Bait, YNs speed through here wheb given the chance because they lack brain cells

Do you even live here

>>154983516
>Traffic never moves fast in the busiest city in the nation
Oh, fuck off.