This is a thread for pictures of powerful women who for one reason or another abbandon their adventurous jobs to do something more mundane. Why be an adventurer when you could instead be an office lady, a flight attendant or a homemaker? Lewder jobs are also fine.
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maki!
>I'm your new secretary. Nice to meet you, hope we work well together.
>Hm? Y-yes, I am THAT Tatsumaki? What about it? I retired. That caped baldy keep on beating all the villains so there's no work for pro heros anymore.>If you want to stay on my good side, don't talk about it again, "Sir".>Much better. Keep treating me like that and I'll be the best secretary you'll ever get.
>Hmm? Am I THAT Tatsumaki? Funny you ask that. Nobody has noticed in years.>Yeah, those days are long behind me.>Turns out hero work wasn't that good for my health. I'm a lot less stressed now. This isn't that bad.>I- Of course I still have my powers! I'm just as strong as I was in my prime!
>Hello sir! Welcome back!>Everything been going smoothly while you were on vacation sir. I see you brought souvenirs for the office?>Oh thank you! You're so considerate!>I've changed since I retired?>No, no, I don't mind. I guess I just didn't notice it before.>You're right. I wasn't really able to come into my own until I got away from all the danger and hero drama.>I like it better here.>My powers? I'm still an esper, but I'm out of practice.>You want to see me lift something? ...Okay, how that for you? I can write with it like this too, pretty cool, huh?>Don't be silly! There's no way I could lift a car or anything like that anymore!
>>10977581>>10977586I don't get it, isn't being a whore what Erza does everyday?
>>10977882Don't be silly anon, Erza is pure. If she wasn't, why did she decide to become a nun?
Good end is where a villainess becomes a devoted housewife.
>>10977990Counter pitch: good end is where the villainess gets mindbroken to the point where she believes being a devoted and loving housewife is essential to her evil plot.
>>10977937Pure? Pure slut.
>>10977990>>10978035What if that was always the plan?
washed up miku
a warrior made healer.
“Aura, give out free samples”
I've got a thing for defeated CEOs. The company she's spent her life building, the product of so much effort, snatched away through duplicitous means and a hostile takeover. Forced into working for her victorious rival. Made to attend an auction of her former company's holdings and assets as a sexy bunny waitress, forced to watch and listen as her life's work is callously sold off to the highest bidder while simultaneously attending to the every whims of the rich and powerful world she's just been torn away from. It gets worse when she realizes her rival's ensured that every person she's screwed over on the way to the top is attending this auction to get something back.
>I-it wasn't my first choice you know! I-I don't like being all girly and being spoiled with cute plushies and fluffy super adorable dresses!>n-now please pour me some tea and take care of me, if I-I'm going to be made a Princess then I expect to be treated like one n-not that I enjoy such things it's just p-part of of the look okay?>I...I am n-not smiling, jeez if you call me cute one more time I'll...make you my prince! that means you'll have to buy me lots of sweets and dolls and take care of me every day I-I bet you'd hate that j-just as much as I would!
honestly bowser is full capable of properly running the kingdom
>fashion shows? no way I far to shy for that, I'd rather stay home and binge anime all day.
>I'm a succubus how am I able to even BECOME a magical girl? that's utterly ridiculous!
>regular school? but, wanted to hunt for requza...
>"make a mess" nah I'd much prefer to clean up a turf war personally, it's much more satisfying to clean.
From an honorable knight, to nothing more than a useless dairy cow maid
>Princess? No, not any more.>After my father died, my mother married King Dorephan. Mipha is the royal heir now.>...My life is to protect and serve the princess now. My own nobility is behind me.
>>10978148honestly good for them, botw zelda did not like being a princess
Most of these girls don't seem too upset by their reduced stations. Aren't these supposed to be bad ends?
>>109781851. It's hard to find images of characters as unhappy housewives2. I like seeing girls enjoy their new mundane lives.But fine, for you. Mina wasn't made for hero work, and evidently wasn't made for office work either. How much lower could she go?
>>10978192I’d say about 12 stories if she burns through the floor
Your uniform determines your place in this world. Just because there are no stars or life fibers involved doesn't change Satsuki's position now.
Job change with level drain or without? Which do you prefer?
I'll tell you, it is good to have adventurous girls in your debt. You could tell them to do just about anything and they would succeed.
I wish the patriarchy thread was more like this and not just some knockoff slavery thread
>>10978754The slavery thread is nothing but anons talking about how much they want to be slaves and slave mentality crap, and it's patriarchy thread offshoot is nothing but anons talking about how inferior women are and globalization shit. You wanna talk about, you know...sex slaves and powerful women being enslaved and slave auctions and all that? Well then you get to eat shit. What a sorry state of affairs.
>>10978367Definitely with level drain, I love when a capable warrior woman ends up as some weak run-of-the-mill goon that's just completely useless when working alone. If her personality also changes into a total scaredy-cat, even better.
>>10978717Truly a fate worse than death.
>>10977579>be lecherous ugly bastard boss>grope new chick constantly for months>know she hates you with burning passion>discover she's retired adventurer>has a combat class that's 3x higher levels than your primary middle manager class>shit bricks>guess it's time to move!
>>10978367I prefer to think of it as "prestige"ing into another class like how in fire emblem when you reach level 20 you can then pick another job to enter, as for stats they'd be seen as basically useless like loosing all your str for charisma as an example or straight up weird made up stats that aren't practical for fights like say "daintyness" or "hair care" and the like
a quiet life on a farm in a peaceful world isn't so bad.
>>10979218The way "jobs" generally work in Final fantasy games is that you can use one at a time and freely switch between them, but once you level them up far enough you unlock a permanent bonus that applies no matter what class you are using.>"Bunny waitress" job level 10 perk>Automatically enter "Seduction" stance when groped or molested>Note: You cannot move or attack while in the seduction stance.>Next perk at level 15>Automatically give drinks targets that request them as a free actionEven if she quits now, she's past the point of no return. No matter what she does, she'll always act like a bunny waitress. And there's so many more fun perks to unlock! Not to mention the other jobs the bar is going to have her start leveling.
>>10979358dragon quest 7 does something akin to that but only certain skills carry over if it's compatible with that class like a sword user can't use every spell but they get some spells and a mage user can't use sword skills like flame sword and whatnot. (though some skills are character specific)in a fetish context that could work as well, like say serving drinks could be transferred to the "damsel" job but it'd only serve tea and would loose any "perks" of the bunny waitress job unless you respecced into that job again and only certain damsel skills would be able to go to the bunny waitress like let's say "cute charm" wherein they bat their eyes and act sweet just as an example.there's alot of fun to be had with skill/trait/job swaps especially when some of them could be transferred to other jobs.
>Champion Cynthia?>No, I've left that stressful life behind a long time ago. I don't even go by Cynthia anymore.>I'm surprised anyone still recognizes me.>Please, just think of me as a loyal maid faithfully serving her noble mistress.>Speaking of her, she bid me make sure that her honored guest was fully satisfied.>So, is there anything I could help you with sir?
Don't feel down Cynthia! Hucows do an important job! Your shift is almost done too. Once we give you your hormone enhancers you can go back to your pen.
Meine valkyrie...
who needs mercenary work when you can be an adorable bunny girl streamer who plays team fortress 2.
maybe not "bad end" but it kinda fits i guess?
>>10982730100% fits>Girls with big difficult ambitious dreams grappling with the fact that they are attractive enough that succeeding would get them less money than modeling or other sexy jobs.I 100% believe that Uraraka would become a cam girl rather than a hero if she knew it would make money.
Turns out there's demand even for giant hero's in the office. Her power makes get great eye candy.
>>10978757Sometimes I just want stepfordization and power loss and shit like that without a bunch of guys who are only there to talk about how they hate women.
>made to change classes to maid>dislikes it at first, but is told that they'll become powerful if they level it up all the way>as they perform basic housework and level up, their personality changes and they become gradually more submissive and obedient>by the time they hit level 99 they're the perfect maid, having no desires other than to serve the master of the household
>>10977830Love it, anon.
>>10978939>I love when a capable warrior woman ends up as some weak run-of-the-mill goon that's just completely useless when working alone. If her personality also changes into a total scaredy-cat, even better.Got any prompt/story ideas for this? I love this type of premise, and there's a lot of ways you could do it. I might write something if anybody has a good enough idea. Other premises like depowering or becoming "ordinary" are fine too, although I'm most likely to do the above.
>>10984021>Samus only took the job out of desperation, with her funds low and bounty hunting jobs scarce. But she's too good at her job, and before she knows it it's paying better than returning to work as a bounty hunter would.>Just one more week, one more month until I quit, she keeps telling herself as her body becomes softer and smoother, falling out of shape as she optimises her performance to get as many tips as possible>of course, she'll always say she doesn't like it if you ask her, and that she'll quit any day now, even though it's been years since she started working there...
>>10984021>>10984023sorry but samus as a maid reminded me of this
>>10984012Finally someone gets it. All submissive scenarios get their appeal from love. If you want to see a girl submit because you hate her, that's not porn, that's something else. I want to see Samus give it all up and become my helpless obedient maid because I like her as she already is. There wouldn't be a point if I didn't. Doing mean things to her is only fun because I like her. Similarly receiving mean things is only good for a sub if they already like their dom too.
Isn't this what 30% of dragon maid is? Sure Tohru loves it, but Elma and Lucoa are both forced into it.
>>10984023maybe she'd be better off marring into nobility.>>10984062personally I'd just want her to end up in a care free world of absurd cuteness
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>>10984023>waitressing pays better than stopping the production of civilization-destroying bioweaponsthe competence crisis is real
>>10984195The saving the galaxy gig is just the groundwork for the Onlyfans.
>>10984125so that's why adam calls her lady!
How about storieshttps://chyoa.com/story/Bovine-Testing.51358mabye a bit ott tho
>>10978079>washed up>has massive knockersits an improvement
>>10984021>I might write something if anybody has a good enough idea. Other premises like depowering or becoming "ordinary" are fine too, although I'm most likely to do the above.Not sure if you want to write original or if you want to write fanfic. I'd love to see curly or a military robot like curly downgraded to civilian specs. Now that her mission on the island is done, she doesn't really need them anymore, does she? It would be hard for her to adjust to not being superhuman though.I would really like to see a villainess domesticated too. We haven't had any yet. Albedo would be good.
>>10984574It probably wouldn't be Curly since although I've played Cave Story I'm not really sure what to write for a scenario on her that isn't her in name only. Would need to think of scenarios in general for showing off her adjusting to being downgraded since there's only so many opportunities to be disadvantaged by a lack of super strength in an ordinary life.>trying to move into her new home and finding that she's now so weak she can't even lift boxes or furniture without helpMy first idea was for her to become a maid, but then that's just Mahoromatic's premise but stripped of her abilities.
>>10984021If you're familiar with Xenoblade 2, maybe Morag? Maybe Brighid is weakened, forcing the two of them to lay low for awhile, with Morag getting too attached to her new life and her cover story to start retraining Brighid once she recovers. You could pick just about any blade and turn them into a human or give them an unadventurous driver and they'll quickly be domesticated. Kora or Pandoria could easily get picked up by a innkeeper and end up a barmaid with no clue of their heroic exploits in previous lives.
>>10985102Morag is already in the worse job timeline. she’s the firstborn but was not given any royalty, merely being a general or inquisitor.
>>10985102Patrician taste
>>10985113She can always go further.
>>10985146I'm tired of the main girl advantage! Nearly every girl in Xenoblade 2 is great! I love pyrah, but I wish more artists would acknowledge the others!Now is the part where I would dump Finch art, but unfortunately this isn't /trash/ and best girl isn't allowed.
>>10978939Status reduction and attitude normalisation are a great combo. It's lovely seeing a staunch heroine react like a normal woman.
>>10984021How about this: some powerful sorceress girl gets her memory wiped by the villain, and the villain makes her believe that she was just one of her weak useless pawns. And since the girl has lost her memory, she doesn't remember any of her magic anymore anyway, so she just figures that she must be really weak then, and submits to the villain.
>>10977579>This is a thread for pictures of powerful women who for one reason or another abbandon their adventurous jobs to do something more mundane. Why be an adventurer when you could instead be an office lady, a flight attendantLove the idea of them being brought down to normal after their specific world-saving job has ended.>or a homemaker? Stepfordization normally scratches that itch for me.>Lewder jobs are also fine.I love and have commissioned a lot of hooker-tf stuff, but it feels more like a subset of moral degeneration.
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>>10985853>she was just one of her weak useless pawns.A pawn of the villain or the pawn of the sorceress?
>>10986101Pawn of the villain
>>10978939Source for that image?
>>10988602Sentai Senki Buster Blue, good h-game with some brainwashing and personality change plot. Very short though, unfortunately.
I actually love this as a concept, god damn. I've always hated bad ends, and while obviously some characters here would feel pretty miserable being depowered or forced into civilian life, that is far and away a better fate for them than so many alternatives.I'm sure some of you all here are familiar with the early 2000s Teen Titans. Wouldn't Terra fit pretty well with this idea? It's left unclear if she >Really is just another girl who looks like Terra>Actually has amnesia>Actually just lost her powers>Is pretending to have amnesia/lost her powers
>>10978939This has been my absolute favourite kink idea in recent times, especially when it comes to enemy conversion. Something about an incredibly strong, powerful party member or heroine becoming another nameless enemy goon satisfies me to no end. If her personality undergoes some changes, either via brainwashing upon being captured or simply tricking her, to believe she'll become far more successful and empowered as a sexy little grunt for the evil villains, that's even better. Team Rocket has always been an old favourite for this, but lately, those lewd shadow bunny girls from Persona 5 have been getting more popular, and they're the absolute pinnacle of this idea to me. >>10984021I've had story ideas for this for the longest time.>It's Persona 5, and the party has gone into Sae's palace>Most of the shadows wandering around are the incredibly sexualized bunny waitresses with microscopic waists and bulging assets>The party ends up being split up and Ann, Makoto, or Haru (or any combination of them) ends up on their own>Soon she gets surrounded by those shadow bunnies and utterly drained of her levels, abilities, and more>Once she's weakened, she's swallowed by and transformed into one of the shadow bunnygirls jiggling around the casino floors as another weak enemy grunt>By the time the party realizes, she's completely blended in with the dozens of other lewd bunny shadows>And picking through each shadow one by one to find the single bunnygirl that used to be Ann/Makoto/Haru is an ordeal >Especially if her new instincts as a shadow bunny compel her keep running away from them, resisting the attempts to change her back
>The princess came from a long bloodline of luminaries who have slain many demon overlords.>However after a foolish decision to back-talk her uncle the king she has been stripped of her luminary title.>She has also been cursed to never gain experience from battle and her combat experience and magic spells have been taken away.>Currently the princess is working jobs to make end's meat.>However with no ability to fight monsters she's restricted to non-adventuring jobs.>She's been thrown out of just about every trade in town.>Every tradesman has lost patience with her holier than thou attitude.>Perhaps I can make an arrangement with his majesty to properly train his neice in service.>I'm certain she'll be desperate for any job after living the beggar's life for a week or two.
>>10992877>incredibly strong, powerful party member or heroine becoming another nameless enemy goonYou definitely should play ¨Operation Dark Side¨ (or whatever the official title of that is) then. What you described happens to one of the magical girl heroines in that game. She's number 072 in this picture.
>>10993179Found it easily enough on f95, and even with a WIP english translation. It looks exactly up my alley anon, and the other scenes all look great too, thanks for pointing it out~ As much as I love capable women becoming maids, secretaries, and more too, none of them really feel Bad End-y like a true blue heroine succumbing to baser villainy~
>>10977579>Lewder jobsjust don't ask the whores to kneel - they've all taken arrows to the knee
>>10993179>Operation Dark SideThis was super good. Thanks for the recommendation!
>>109941082012 called. They want their joke back.
>>10995657sorry let me adjust to modern times. SHE RIZZED SO HARD HER SIGMA JOB GOT SEND DOWN THE SKIBIDITOILET AND NOW SHES FORCED TO DO FANUM TAXES
>>10993179Do you have that specific scene posted anywhere?
>>10995657It's retro now so it's cool again
I don't get enemy combatants and drones. If I'm going to get a cute girl to work for me, why would I strip them of their personality which made me like them so much in the first place? I want to see them adapt to their new job their own way, even if it isn't the most normal.
>>10992877Any more images on this theme?
>>10997552It's not a huge category, but you can find a modest little amount of them on places like R34 now. It's spread out a little beyond just P5 characters, which I always enjoy.
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>>10998447I hope this outfit takes off for crossover images like Rouge's did, and we get to see all kinds of non-persona girls as bunny girl shadows.>Palace guards like that are canonically characters and ideas from the collective unconscious that get ensnared by a palace ruler's distorted mind and forced to serve.>Primarily mythological figures, but it is canonically plausible for the concept of a modern fictional character to wander from the collective unconscious into a palace and get bound to a palace ruler's will.
>>10998447Thanks. Been searching, and there's less focus on Makoto than I'd expect. Shame, that.
>>10997552>>10998730My favorite. I like how the transformation is destroying and replacing her clothes, changing her hair, the way her new expression is overwriting her old. You won't even be able to tell it's Makoto by the time she's done. And that struggle between her arms and the mask, and the text too, oh man, there's a lot to love here.
>>10998963There's something so hot about how in the end the old Makoto blue text is talking just like the bunny girl pink text. The old personality isn't simply erased, she's happily indulging in her new personality.
>>10998977I love hearing giving in described like that. She wants it, the transformation and control is giving her the perfect excuse to enjoy being a bunny waitress for her sister's casino.If she's ever rescued, she's going to have some difficult feelings to sort through. I don't think she could return to being a normal high schooler after the experience and finding out what she really wants with her life. Either she's going to throw the infiltration to secure a life as a bunny girl in her sister's mind, or this is her one last job before she quits the phantom thieves and joins a real casino.
>>10999009Yup. If she's rescued, she'd pretend to be all confused and lie about being brainwashed, but in reality she'd be looking for an excuse to go back to being a blonde bombshell.
>>10998977>>10999009>>10999036You zeroed in on the one part of the picture I don't like...
>>10999056Lol. That's how it goes sometimes. What don't you like about it? What you rather Makoto be saying in the end?
>>10999092I'm not that anon (I'm the one who requested more of the shadow bunnies), but I'd say the idea that this is something they secretly desire doesn't do it for me. The fact that they're being turned into something so specific (all because of another person's weird hangups), and forced into that role with all of their being is what's appealing to me. Especially so Iif it's someone with such strong convictions as Makoto.
>>10999167I like "secretly into it" and "discovering her new fetish" scenarios because I like to see girls happy. If Makoto was actually forced into being a bunny forever and she didn't like it, that would be too sad for me to fap to it. Either she needs to escape and overcome with naught but embarrassing memories to show for it, or develop a genuine appreciation for it. Personally I love stories where a girls is forced into it the first time and initiates it the second time. I love the idea of temporary transformations with mind control or identity loss causing lasting effects to a character's desires after they revert. Even though their body and will is back, something in their mind was permanently changed by the experience.>Makoto fell in love with the idea of being a Bunny waitress. She talks about it regularly, has bought outfits and magazines, all of her fantasies are about it now. The the skills and mannerisms from her transformation stuck. When she chooses to use them the similarity is uncanny, like she never turned back into a human in the first place.>Ann learned a lot from being a bunny girl. Ever since she decided to stand up to Kamoshida, she's tried to use her body for herself and take control of people's attraction to her rather than hide from it. She had been less successful though, her nervousness refused to go away. She didn't go bunny crazy after returning like Makoto, but that hypnotized mindset showed her what taking control of her body was in practice. The part of her that was still afraid of being seen is completely gone. When she tries to turn up her charm, it doesn't seem like she's forcing it anymore.>Haru was shocked to see how strongly a few days as Bunny girls had changed her friends. Sure, she would never forget how to walk with that sway, or how to cling to a boy. She thought it was a little fun in retrospect, but it didn't make her want to change who she was.
>>10999452>Hearing Makoto gushing about bunny suit stuff made Futaba feel left out for never getting transformed. The palace is still there... but she could never tell anyone she wants to get droned on purpose! They all make wearing a bunny suit looks so easy now. They never complain about all the inconveniences Futaba finds with it, they don't seem to notice how gracefully they move in their suits and heels.
Why is Cynthia perfect for this?
>>10998716I really hope so too, it's already gotten as little more visible than it was when Persona 5 came out, and everybody loves some slutty bunny girls. Any given fictional character, entity, etc, could accidentally stumble into the collective unconscious mind palace like it's the Backrooms and find themselves melting/morphing into a faceless shadow bunnygirl just like all the other ones they've been fleeing from. As they're merely a figment of the palace ruler's imagination now, they can do nothing as they morph into another one of the shadow bunnygirls trotting around the halls, perpetually bound to the ruler's will>>10998730It's funny what does and doesn't catch on. I think these have all the potential to be another meme fetish that catches on in popular space if it just gets the right exposure.
>>11000510Do you have a preference for what kind of personality and mannerisms they should have? I like the idea of them being clingy but otherwise emotionless.The biggest thing those of us who can't draw can do to help them grow right now is to give them a name that can be used to consistently tag them. If there isn't some official name to pull from, we should pick something catchy. Just "Shadow waitress" isn't good enough.
>Woman having a peaceful home life after struggle and strife is a "bad end"
>>11000534How come Pyra gets to hold her own kid?
>>10999452You're speaking my language with that one anon, this is something I love about this kind of kink too. Being exposed to an all new sexual awakening where, even if she's saved from her 'bad end', something has been permanently etched into her consciousness that she just can't shake the thought of, to show that she can't just brush off a life-changing event consequence free. >Makoto can't help but feel physically uncomfortable if she's wearing anything but a high-cut leotard, even if it has to be under her regular clothes>Ann gained a sassy, seductive little giggle as a subconscious habit>Haru's center of gravity is permanently off balance and feels like she's going to tip over backwards standing on anything less than a 4-inch heel. >all three of them can't stop themselves from walking without the ridiculous gyration of their hips that's burned into their muscle memory And given a little time, all of their bad traits may start to reemerge in each other, leading all three to dressing, talking, and behaving identically anyways, even though they *shouldn't* be. If they're not like Makoto who embraced her bunnygirl desire with a startling willingness from the start that is. Makoto would certainly jump back into the palace to be transformed back into her dream bunnygirl form of her own volition, but this time she'd drag the curious Futaba along to experience the bunnygirl metamorphosis and corrupt her desires too~ Ann and Haru likely wouldn't be able to resist the instinct embedded in their brains to return to bunnygirl for much longer after Makoto did.>>11000533Clingy, emotionless, but very provocative, shamelessly wiggling their assets around since their basic, limited instincts would be to seduce and draw in others. It should be the feeling of an emotionless, inhuman being trying to imitate human passion and arousal. I think shadow waitress works fine as a tag though. It's what they're all tagged as already, and shows they're based in Persona shadows
>>11000543I prefer to keep it softer, just lessons learnt that they have to choose to embrace or slowly unlearn, no instincts or permanent mental damage but yeah, exactly. The idea of Makoto wearing a uniform under her clothes is intense.I do lean heavily towards the "Faceless eyecandy. Busy workerbee who never stops serving" vibes over the "Slutty bimbo who just wants you" direction that some images have. That is the fun part though, everyone can do their own interpretation. Lots of room for waitresses that show more of their original personality too.I guess shadow waitress isn't that bad. Didn't know it was already being used since it didn't show up on gelbooru. I am a disappointed that none of the other palaces had female shadows. Imagine the potential if Kaneshiro's bank had office lady shadows in pencil skirts, or Futaba's tomb had servant girl shadows in loose gowns that could easily be modified by fan artists into more historically accurate topless designs.
>>11000561That's fair enough too, like they've been exposed to a guilty pleasure that they were completely unaware of before, and it's tickled a hidden part of themselves that maybe wants to experience it again. Thus, wearing the bunnygirl uniform under her clothes, so she can walk around feeling like she's the sensual bunnygirl that she feels like deep inside. I don't think they should be acting like whores to get you in bed or anything like that, but they should still be a source of persistent provocation, bending over in an exaggerated manner and jiggling their curves obliviously, just doing those provocative things naturally as they go about their little worker bee routine, because part of their 'serving' is to make sure you don't want to leave. So in short, an emotionless, inhuman worker bee emulating sensual human gestures to draw in those who end up in the palace to become more of them, that's the most succinct way I'd put it. And shadow waitress is what I've been finding the material with on R34. It's short and pretty adequately illustrates what they're supposed to be, especially since I don't think they had a specific name in game. And that is a missed opportunity, Madarame's palace probably would've had straight up nude shadows as art classes do, and Kamoshida's would've been in some saucy, borderline JAV schoolgirl costumes. Maybe Okamura's shadow girls would've been in more western-diner waitress attire?
How long do you think it normally takes to acclimate a heroine to the feeling of cum? I imagine after about a week of service they'll stop being bothered by getting covered in it. Growing to like it can take a lot longer for girls that lack the aptitude.
>>11001770I'd say half that. The urge to surrender is built into them, and there's really nothing that says you lose like having a man pump babymaker inside of you.
