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Best controller

>>2842096
not a safety controller fan but am an Allen Bradley fan
like my processors mature though
nothing like that PLC 5 smell

How do we bootstrap an industrial civilisation?

ABiggers need to be gased

>>2842116
Go suck some Siemens

>>2842007
if you work as an industrial electrician how did you get started: trade school or did work train from scratch?

>>2842122
2 year associates degree in Automation Engineering.
But mostly it was on the job training, was hired half way through school.
I'm not technically an electrician at all but it doesn't really seem to matter at my plant. I do the job of one all the same.

>>2842122
Im a controls eng by education, moved to software design first and at one point said I’ll do the commissioning myself because it’s fun and pays extra. Learned the electrician part from the site electricians but still I’ll leave most to them if I don’t need something changed asap. The trades guys are much better with glands and tie rips and cable tray

>>2842105
I prefer a separate safety controller but these are $1k which is about the price of the most basic pnoz

>>2842126
> I'm not technically an electrician at all but it doesn't really seem to matter at my plant. I do the job of one all the same.

This is common. Once you can read a drawing an carry a laptop you’re a “technical guy” and some managers think you can do anything. Was doing a conveyor install and some production manager would ask if I could program the factory hvac to be a bit cooler in the afternoon.

I'm a cripple and I desperately miss the trades. Is there a segment of this industry where someone who can only walk in short bursts for short distances, cannot sit at a desk, and cannot bend/lift? I'm asking genuinely. I fucking hate working from home, doing remote work standing at a desk wearing a back brace making shit money and getting fat. I've played around with PLCs for fun, I've done lots with MCUs both for fun and for past jobs, I'm a comfortable but shit-tier programmer, and I'm comfortable with household electrical work, and I wouldn't balk about going back to school if I have to.

Just graduated EE undergrad. Would like to get into FIFO oil rig biz. What's the path here?

I was registered for an ind. engineering tech program this fall, but just pulled out
Almost fell for another 'welders are in high demand!'
Indeed reports plant managers in my area are at about $24 / Hour

>>2842236
crane operator??
press operator? lot of manufac. jobs that are just pressing a button.
quality control?

>>2842096
Electronically controlled relay.
Those were neat in the 60’s and 70’s.
Not quite as advanced as the typical microwave oven’s controller though.
Now it’s just being gatekept for a boutique and dying discipline.

>>2842339
cope
ladder 4 eva

>>2842339
> electronically controlled relay
Except it speaks tcp ip, ethernet/ip, OPC-UA and a ton of other shit. I’ve seen the fancy pants “industrial embedded computers” from beckhoff and others shit their pants many times on a small power surge, lose persistent memory or die from a small heat wave while this bad boy survives 400V on the 24V supply line and 60+ Celsius for hours

>>2842367
> ladder 4 eva
Exactly… they developed a new, retarded, non-standard diagramming standard and acronyms/language to keep outsiders from decrypting their writings and have a side-industry for selling their disciples certifications.
> “let’s re-purpose the capacitor symbol”
The IEC tried this shit with the actual logic symbols, too, and got their asses handed to them.
>>2842524
> ethernet, 24 V, surge protector
Oh, they’re up to the 1980s now with 1 Mb/s ethernet and have a few MOVs across the supply rail. Whoopdee friggin doo.
You realize telecom-grade uses 48 V eh?
Impress me with your POE caps.
I thought not.

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>>2842543
ah you're the same guy that crashed the original /ind/ thread a couple years ago aren't you?

>>2842544
Probably.
Electricians are worse, they still call relays “contactors” for some idiotic, antiquated reason, and don’t know what a relay even is.

I’m trying to encourage people to branch out, or die out. Don’t necessarily limit your designs to over-priced pre-fabricated, black-box modules.

>>2842553
>Don’t necessarily limit your designs to over-priced pre-fabricated, black-box modules.
b-but my sales rep brings me donuts

>>2842325
Thanks anon, I haven't looked into manufacturing jobs before, now I will.

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some stuff i did while working for a big German train company you guys think i did ok 6 month in training

I'm looking at dust collectors for a seed mixing area (we currently use a crappy woodworking collector with 10yr old cartridge filter). I've got my eye on something like the donaldson 2-2 or 3-3, only issue is that my location doesn't have 3ph. How much should I expect it to cost to either get a phase converter or to replace the motor (and maybe some of the controllers?) With single phase ones?

>>2843032
You might want to look into geting a vfd that does 3 ph out.

>>2843032
is it possible to get a 3 phase connection from your utility company? in the long run thats cheaper than a workaround for every piece of gear

>>2842543
>>2842553
There’s a time and place for PLCs and ladder and a time and place for PC based stuff.

> Exactly… they developed a new, retarded, non-standard diagramming standard

Who are they? Didn’t they tell you that ladder is just a relay diagram but sideways.

> acronyms/language to keep outsiders from decrypting their writings
Anon just read the book slowly and practice you’ll learn eventually

>>2843253
NTA

Yes, but it depends on a bunch of factors. If you have 3 Phase running past your address. If you have the poles already installed, how far away from the road you are, cost of wire and transformers, and the amperage you would need. When I was quoted for my small machine shop it was mid 5 figures, so instead, I got an electrician and had Single Phase 400A service run to my shop I slapped VFD's on everything and called it a day. It was much cheaper to do the VFD/static phase converter route than have 3 phase service put in. Then again, I opted out of the RPC route that would have been even cheaper because those units are louder than I wanted and would have needed an extra containment box with padding because of their noise (Osha regulations stipulated that because my air compressor, machines, and RPC would have put me over the legal limit.)

>>2843253
>>2843317
We have a 3ph 600a transformer on site but at a different building. I think the last time we asked it would have been about 30k to run the cable to where we need it, not counting running it inside the building to the breaker boxes. Just looking at how cheap and soon I could get it before we build new facilities with more 3ph at the start.

>>2842236
A LOT of companies are beginning to pay for adjustable desks. Not the high-dollar ones, but you could easily stand at you desk, in an office. I THINK PLC guys are sometimes required to get out on the floor and work on the controllers (not just write up ladder-logic), but I don't know that, for sure.

>>2842122
OJT. Trade school after as work leaves gap in knowledge.

>>2842553
>Electricians are worse, they still call relays “contactors” for some idiotic, antiquated reason, and don’t know what a relay even is.

Contactors are obviously for line power carrying purposes. Anything over 15 amps.

https://www.wevolver.com/article/contactor-vs-relay

ofc you already know this dont you

>>2843387
>>2843317
>>2843253
>>2843032
I would remind you that even if you can get them to run 3 phase service they expect you to actually use the service frequently enough to justify it. It is its own meter after all. If you are only using one or two machines just go ahead with some cheap chinese crap if you can.

>>2842007
So I've been interviewing like crazy with not much being thrown my way other than a possible frontend web dev job. Pay is decent with the option to be remote and starts around 100k, but they are taking their sweet ass time.

Some personal shit has gotten in the way and I'm currently burning through savings between mortgage and helping family out. I'm pretty burned out, but the show must go on.

About a year ago, I had an offer to take on a controls engineer position with a family friend's company and I pretty much turned it down because I was already working and relocating. Fast forward a year and some change and I'm looking for work. Another potential offer I have is working broadcast for a news station that is also a union shop.

Anons, what is the best route here? I'm not too sure of the trajectory of the broadcast gig, but being in a union sounds like it could lead to some more stability and the pay is the same as starting in controls. On the other hand, the controls guy is still hiring and I could potentially reach out and try to get the offer back and grind it out. Its not union, but it seems like the payscale could go a lot higher in that field (automotive supplier).

Has anyone worked in these fields? Whats it like? Both starting about 80-85k and I need to fucking work. Figured I'd ask DIY since it seems to be the most rational board on here.

>>2846228
> I THINK PLC guys are sometimes required to get out on the floor and work on the controllers
Nah hardly. I slap a wifi router into the cabinet as soon as I enter the building. But I do have to get up to watch the machines sometimes or crush 500 bags of potato chips because I forgot to debounce the sensor. Process controls has the comfy seats in offices, in manufacturing you’re usually in a folding chair

>>2846528
Don’t work for family friends’ companies. If you want to do controls, OEM is often the faster money but a lot of travel until you become senior. Factory pays OK if you’re willing to work shifts. When I started web dev was the better career option for me as well, but it was so boring I decided fuck it. Ymmv

>>2846483
We already have the transformer and meter (and get billed $450/month for the privilege), but are trying to wait for another new building to be built to house some milling equipment before we run cable. Suffering from success.

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>>2842007
OMG it that an Automation? Ive learned all about these in Basedcialism class. Hello! Automation! I wish for a bucket of candy, a wheelbarrow of UBI, and a cure for fat acne.

>>2847312
Go back to your QA testing lab. Youre not allowed to touch the blinkenlichten

How do I find an intermittent CANOpen issue? The Fieldbus Coupler gets overloaded with "too many error messages" and stops working until it recovers by itself.

>>2847572
QALab? he's probably a line worker. most Liberal arts degrees are.

what a good rule of thumb changeover delay between the star and delta contactor?

>>2847601
Set a stopwatch and measure the time from starting (0 rpm) to reaching 80% engine speed. For example, if the full speed of the engine is 1400 rpm, then for 80% of the full speed it is about 1120 rpm. Therefore, stop the clock and remove the time readings. This is the time to switch from the STAR sequence to the TRIANGLE.

>>2848883
thats the startup time, but not what i asked

>>2842106
Now this is a great question.

>>2842616
Looks like great work to me. But I don't even work with PLCs, I just enjoy reading about them lol.

>>2842007
What are some good books to learn this stuff

>>2850161
https://www.amazon.com/Programmable-Controllers-Engineers-Guide-Parr/dp/075065757X

>>2849601
As I already have some experience for working with it, I can say that integrators overloading this hardware with untypical applications as it was developed for from beginning at early 80's, when it used only for simple relay logic replacement.
I faced with projects (mostly on simatic) that had a hundreds of logic and data storage program blocks and thousands of lines of code in it, wroten mostly on assembler. It was so uneasy to debug at field, so sluggish at monitoring online, especially when you have several layers of in-out cykle update time, I mean for example 20 ms per cycle standart time for relays, and at the same time some fast inputs like encoders.
Pure level of debugging: when you fail at writing program jump marks (when copypaste) and make some kind of looping in code fragment, it confidently take working plc in stop (not error, so you cand find it in errorlog) mode without any pointing on bug fragment, so you need check all lines manually.

>>2850204
>Pure
I meant poor.

>>2850204
>I can say that integrators overloading this hardware with untypical applications as it was developed for from beginning at early 80's, when it used only for simple relay logic replacement.

From a hobbyist perspective, I could never really figured out what the fuck a PLC was actually FOR when I first heard about them. That is to say, I understood what they did well enough, I just couldn't figure out why the fuck you'd want to split everything up into a bunch of separate modules. Given how little computing the things usually do, a basic 8-bit microcontroller attached to a shitton of relay outputs seemed like it would make a lot more sense (with all the various industrial design conventions to make the system more-or-less bulletproof, of course).

Does that exist? I mean, surely it does, but it doesn't seem like it's common. Is this just industry momentum or am I missing something? Or is that, in fact, what they've become, just with weird programming languages?

>>2850220
When at some of my S7-300 24vdc d/i modules accidentally came 400vac, it only burnt that module, not the all rack, even neighbor modules stayed functional.
It's first for tough, durability and nevermind the price, not for diy cheap lures.

>Is this just industry momentum or am I missing something?
Industy momentum also comes in some gov standarts that sertifies it for static, electromagnetic interference, resistance to agressive acid fog, dust, overheating, some clumsy personell etc.
Also mileage, plcs that I met, worked already for 10-12 years when I come in mid 2010s, and as for I know still working, only psu's needed a replace sometimes.

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>>2850220
>a basic 8-bit microcontroller attached to a shitton of relay outputs seemed like it would make a lot more sense
The Main principle behind a PLC is it operates cyclic, freezes the input states at the beginning of a cycle, runs its main loop and freezes the outputs for the whole duration of the next cycle.
Cycle length can be set to a minimum time, everything works with frozen states in a set time frame.
A basic bitch micro controller doesn't work like that and by the time you implemented that logic it basically is a plc but with a ton of programming time wasted.
More modern controller obviously have interrupt and a-cyclic loops but that is more niche stuff not generally needed for machine controlling.

Its a matter of, why reinvent the wheel just to use something soigoy mc compsy student was familiarized during university

>>2850220
the long standing king of PLCs is the PLC5
which is fundamentally a motorola 68000
what's important is what's on top
which is an easy to use and troubleshoot while it's running logic system.
You can train monkeys to troubleshoot your process
no one wants to hire uppity "computer programmers" to do the same thing. Plus they don't want to work at factories anyways.

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I want to start a business that requires industrial space. Problem is, there’s no way in hell I can afford both that (+ start up costs) and paying for an apartment. I would be happy to sleep in the warehouse but I’d have to do it with plausible deniability.

Is it viable to buy or rent a warehouse 30-60 mins outside of San Diego? How much would that cost me, roughly speaking? What about elsewhere? I figure owning would be a lot easier in terms of not getting caught/kicked out, but also way more expensive.

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I'm retarded and I like to program ladder logic directly into memory addresses with a 30 year old sysmac programmer console.

>>2850247
> main loop and freezes the outputs for the whole duration of the next cycle
Allen Bradley PLCs are a notable exception, probably others. The IO cycle runs separate from program so inputs and outputs may change at any point in the cycle

>>2850457
For me it’s the S7 313

>>2850220
> Does that exist? I mean, surely it does, but it doesn't seem like it's common. Is this just industry momentum or am I missing something?
There’s the finder opta, controllino and many like them, usually arduino based. Technically it’s very possible, but factories don’t generally trust those small nee manufacturers for their 24/7 operation Afaik the entire Siemens Logo line is exactly that (MCU with relays and ethernet), you see them sometimes in industrial applications. Also relays outputs are not as important as they once were, you just use bus modules these days. I’ve seen some tracking equipment suppliers that just run all their shit on a PC in NodeRED with Moxa instead of using a PLC. It works too but they need a redundant server configured on-premise for it to work, and after 5 years nobody remembers how it was supposed to be configured

>>2851696
>the entire Siemens Logo line is exactly that
the semens logo is very slow and limited although stm32 based. For example it has an ethernet jack but thats only good for the webserver, as plc slave or for fucking modbus tcp (who uses that shit).
Its entire purpose is its cheaper than 4 dedicated timer relays, but you'd have to be fucked in the head to use this on some production machinery, you dont even know in what order the compiler puts your instruction strings (and it doesn't even matter as the thing has to static memory)

>>2851697
*has no static memory

>>2851697
> but you'd have to be fucked in the head to use this on some production machinery
Didn’t mean to imply machinery. I’ve seen them mostly in sanitation equipment (hand washing stations, automated drain flushing etc) and access stuff (automatic barriers, speed doors) in factories, but also sometimes you see a lone conveyor with one

> who uses that shit
Cheap home/small business installations (garages, kitchens, smaller greenhouses). There are a lot of cheap remote IO/relays available for it and it can be used on the existing home network. Also some drives like the Danfoss VLT have an option for it for ‘motion control on a budget’

boomp

There's an IT job open at the factory in my town that I applied to, but the responsibilities section doesn't say what I'd actually be doing. Anybody here with any experience doing that sort of thing in an industrial setting? What kind of OS and/or hardware would I be working with? Any suggestions for projects I can do at home to add to my CV? I'm not sure what an IT role in a factory would look like

>>2852795
What do they make? I only know consumer goods factories they often use Windows, MSSQL, some proprietary labelling application, sometimes SCADA (in touch, WinCC, Factorytalk), a bunch of custom stuff to connect it all (OPC clients, SAP couplings), MES and/or SCADA. Software depends heavily on if they use Siemens/AB/Something else but it’s almost always Windows. Some modern ones are very slowly transitioning to Docker container infrastructure.

Or you could just be the guy that helps people with their laptops. Do they list any experience required?

>>2852823
They make both consumer wholesale goods. I learned from a guy who worked there previously that they were using JDE but are moving to something different, although he didn't know what. There's no experience listed; there's nothing really listed except a vague "detail-oriented, go-getter, etc" cookie cutter description. I've emailed the people in charge of hiring for the position, but they said they can only answer questions in the actual interview.

>>2852971
both consumer and wholesale goods*

>>2851696
>Allen Bradley PLCs are a notable exception
Does this apply to the micro800 line?

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If you'll do next Titan hull crack control system, what will you use? Plc's, sensors, etc.

>>2853233
4-7 Strain sensors glued to the inner and outer hulls ti precisely measure how the ship is flexing. Characterize it with a bunch of unmanned test dives to failure. Abort any dive if it falls outside of parameters.

>>2853162
Not that I know of, those are completely different devices compared to logix

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>>2853412
>>2853162 here, it looks like they've got a semi-classical execution. Unfortunately I'd been looking in the wrong manual, this is from the micro 810.