Obviously the only way possible would be through pure grazing which is my plan but how can that be done properly? My plan is to use the goats/sheep for milk and meat, the chickens for eggs and the bees for honey. No vaccines, antibiotics, dewormers would be used. I just wonder how to plan it and which breeds to look for.
What's the best small livestock to produce fat?is it pygmy goats? how much fat can a meat rabbit out on?
>>2842108Mangalica, small, fatty, and tasty. My grandfather used to own one, compared to regular pigs it barely eats, so you don't need more than your cooking and dinner leftovers, and casual grazing.>how much fat can a meat rabbit out on?I presume you meant "How much fat can a rabbit meat put on", and the answer is none, they're as lean as chicken breast, never base your diet solely on rabbit meat, you'll die from protein poisoning.
>>2842291according to a paper on meat rabbit's i found kidney fat level has a high heritability. so it seems like you could select for fattier rabbits
>>2842310Yes, but it's not even enough to barely match your nutritious needs, you'll need something to supplement the lack of fat from the rabbits meat. It's easier to keep some small breed of pigs, or to make your own butter from milk, since you're already eyeing to keep a few pygmy goats.
>>2842100what you describe is very close to what Wife & I do. we raise dairy sheep which we also butcher & process for wool & hides. we raise chickens, ducks, turkey, guinea fowel, quail and rabbits.we live on acreage. Doge & I pasture shepherd most nutritional needs for our flock. we do buy some alfalfa/oat blend hay. a round bale will last us 3 months. 18 - 22kg finished cut weight at butcher & 6 mos. of dairy @ 5,000 - 10,000g per day from our flock. you'll want to treat for parasites. their diet and approach to feed guarantees infestation. they require periodic maintenance for health and the purpose of production. 's just Ivermectin... I take it, not afraid of it. it works.our pasture is sufficient to fully support our flock, but it's not fully fenced, so doge and I must shepherd. time is the constraint. will fence it in in a year or two.we also keep bees. this year was just establishing a healthy colony. next year they should begin producing excess hone for us. they will pollinate our garden & orchard.we do it on a single income.we can talk breeds and such if you actually care, but I've rambled enough for now.
>>2842328I want to eat the meat, dairy and eggs raw so no treatment can be used.
>>2842341if it's ivermectin it's human safe
>>2842341I do all of that as well. we do cook *most* of our red meat (rare) but do consume some raw and a fair amount salt/smoke preserved. I'm all about personal choices, so you do you, but we treat for parasites, because I don't want worms, etc. living rent-free in my ass & stealing my nutrition. that goes double if you consume it raw & rare.I eat raw eggs every morning in a kefir/fruit smoothie. but we also don't that chickens for anything, really. we had a mite infestation once. I think it was ivermec, but that was years ago, so don't remember.dairy has never been cooked, pasteurized or otherwise ruined, on our farm. it is consumed as we collect it, natural.lamb, hogget & mutton are all quite lean. can add some hog fat or beef tallow or fat if wanted. there is *some* fat, and we eat it, but many retards don't like ovine & caprid fat.as long as you observe meat/dairy/egg withholding times, there's nothing wrong with using some occasional treatments. I mean, it's not like we're doing preventative injections of antibiotics or slamming them full of BGH or Progesterone.
>>2842344>>2842346The problem is that they are toxic and affect especially the organs.
Sheep are orders of magnitude superior to goats.
>>2842375goats are better for scrub but yes
small old sheep breed only 24" at the shoulderhttp://www.oldeenglishbabydollregistry.com
>>2842321Domestic rabbits have fat. And it's not like it's hard to get even more fat from other animals or harvesting nuts.
>>2842383Utterly depressing picture
>>2842383found pic of rabbit murderer
>>2842386Yeah that paved road in the back is a real killer, ruins everything
>>2842422>the prius>the terrible shoddy chicken coup that could be built better and nicer in a single afternoon>the shitty transparent plastic tarp>ducks not even fenced in>shitty plastic sawhorse just lying around randomly>random baby buggy>a single glove randomly lying around>disgusting plastic buckets that serve no purpose everywhere>filthy as fuck butcher table>redditfaggot didn't even finish gutting the rabbit before standing there like an absolute retard clown taking a picture of his absolute disgusting mess of a """farm"""
>>2842100I keep hearing that alpacas are the way to go.
chainsaw
>worms in your ass, rent freeHans eat the Sauerkraut.
>>2842100Didn't you just post this thread last week? Cause I'm pretty sure I wrote half a novel under the same OP and image already.
>>2842498I did but most of the threads were deleted.
>>2842498mods made an oopsie and fatfingered half of the site
>>2842100No vaccines, antibiotics, maybe your animal being dead
>>2842539They didn't exist until like a century and a half ago. How did people managed to raise animals before that?
>>2842100The pros of living in a heavily regulated area is they provide checklists for requirements like area per animal, type of fence allowed, animals that can share space etc.Call or email your local government and possibly get in contact with someone with experience A neighbor or someone at a husbandry fair or retailer.
>>2842541The environment has changed, Anon
>>2842563So much that's impossible to live without them? That sounds really strange? Are you completely sure about it?
>>2842539unironically thiswouldn’t be surprised if glowies just infect your animals and kill them that way, or if another Ohio train derailment just happens “randomly”.
>>2842541Lots of critters just died.
>>2842660So I assume you got all the boosters, right?
>>2842664Look, you have to remember that if your fucking animals all died, it was an easier matter to reasonably replace them before your mode of life was severely disturbed. YOU probably can't just go trade something to your neighbor for some animals from the next litter. Take the time to read old animal husbandry and see all the super arcane and even toxic methods we used to treat illnesses in our animals, particularly the working ones. The more things change, the more they stay the same
>>2842695>>2842341
>>2842712>>2842660
>>2842541Only the strong survived, those with weak immune systems were weeded out. this is actually a big reason why modern highly selected sheep breeds have such large parasite burdens while the growing resistance to anthelmintics is forcing breeders to select for better immune system genes again which had be compromised to redirect the energy into growth before
>>2842541>How did people managed to raise animals before that?If your animals died, you went hungry. The thing is there was a safety net, as >>2842695 points out. And the world you live in is very different from 100+ years ago. Wide spread travel has propagated diseases that would have remained very localized back then. We have more live-stock diseases to worry about now, and they are spread a lot faster. Go read up on how England fought to control hoof-and-mouth outbreaks and try to imagine any of your neighbors lifting a finger to protect your herd.
>>2842100learn permaculture for optimal cost:benefit ratio
>>2842613Prevention is better than cure, if one animal on your farm gets sick it will spread to the whole herd, it is important to use antibiotics in moderation
>>2842617I'm not saying antibiotics will make farm animals immortal, I'm just saying that if antibiotics are used, farm animals will have a very high survival rate.
>>2842499Well, not gonna write the whole novel down again, so here's the tldr:>get enough land to keep your animals with bought fodder>borrow land from old people / village officials / nature loving fools for grazing, maybe even get paid for it. I started with a jar of honey per year for 2000m2, from an old woman who couldn't farm it herself anymore>get goats AND sheep. Sheep eat gras, goats eat leaves. Having just one will make them ruin the grazing for themselves, having both means al plants except poisonous ones get eaten. Those, you'll need to cut and compost by hand.>get large breeds. Large chickens can defend themselves from birds of prey and their roosters aren't as loud, large goats are less likely to jump fences.>with the bees, you'll have to use acids if you don't want complex chemicals.>for planning, you need to know how long your land can sustain grazing before needing rest. That depends on climate, mostly.>>2842341>I want to eat the meat, dairy and eggs raw so no treatment can be used.If you're eating meat and eggs raw, if your animals have any parasites, you're gonna consume them. That's how you get trichinosis. Same with bacteria like salmonella.Doing without preventative use of antibiotics is safe (and you could, in theory, avoid all antibiotics by just killing your entire herd every time an animal gets sick...). But salmonella vaccination and regular parasite treatment are absolutely necessary if you want to eat things raw, and a good idea even if not.
>>2842923How are the pigs for mett treated to be safe to eat raw?
>>2842100not this stupid thread again
>>2842100>No vaccines, antibiotics, dewormers would be usedThat seems like a really bad idea. I would be very hesitant to listen to the RETVRN permaculture/crunchy hippie influencer types, they have zero idea what they are talking about. The covid vaccine being bad therefore I have to let my sheep have their intestines filled with tapeworms is a really bad heuristic.
Why does /diy/ give me the feeling that it's 98% retards talking outside their speciality as if they're experts and a few guys who actually know what they're talking about but getting ignored?
>>2842929Depends on the farmer, but every single one is checked for trichinosis, salmonella and a bunch of other foodborne diseases before the meat can be sold. Though to save costs, they normally mix samples from 5-20 pigs, and if it comes back positive, sterilize the entire meat (excess heat over 140°C that'd make it unpalatable for humans) and use it for pet food. Not really something you can do if you're only slaughtering one or two animals a year.How'd you figure out I'm German, btw?
>>2843295I want to consume the meat, milk and eggs raw so these things can't be used.>>2843305Is there someone specifically you're talking about?>>2843321You said it in the previous thread. Though you said nothing about the vaccines, antibiotics or any other medicine they use on them, if.
>>2843327>You said it in the previous threadKek, guess I forgot about that.>you said nothing about the vaccines, antibiotics or any other medicine they use on themYeah, missed that part of the OP in the first thread.I've had my chickens vaxxed against salmonella, and make sure any meat I eat is cooked all the way through, so I don't have to worry about parasites that much. I would deworm if it was necessary, but haven't needed it yet. There's medications that get digested fully within a few days, so you just miss a few days worth of eggs.For other parasites (red and grey bird mites, feather mites) I try to use oil traps and silica dust (which you really shouldn't breathe - use PPE), but those already failed me once. At that time, I went with chrysanthemum extract / pyrethrum, which is similar to permethrine in that it is a strong contact poison to bugs (and cats), but gets destroyed by UV light within a few hours, so there' no risk of it getting into the eggs or meat.I'm not exactly an expert on sheep or goats - don't have any myself yet, and only know what I picked up from people that do - but I'm pretty sure there's similar stuff for them too. You just have to research what medication you can safely use. Hell, one of the typical deworming cocktails used around here is made from garlic juice, pepper and a few herbs. If that isn't antural enough for you, I don't know what would be.Refusing any and all medication seems pretty stupid to me. Even where there were traditional solutions, they don't necessarily work anymore. For example, trichinosis used to be dx'd by taking a thin blade and cutting extremely thin slices of meat from the shoulder muscle. The cysts would grind against the blade, and you could hear and feel it... Until another form of trichinosis was brought in from asia, which doesn't form hardened cysts at all and can't be diagnosed without chemical digestion and a good microscope.
>>2843358How do the Amish do it?
>>2845389They vaccinate their animals
>>2845492That's not true, the Miller's farm doesn't, for an example.
>>2842386>>2842431Okay shlomo.
>>2845556It might not be true for every Amish person, but vaccines aren't forbidden to the Amish and they do use them. A farm that doesn't use vaccines is more likely to lose animals and could lose the entire herd or flock.
>self-sufficientIf you mean paying your bills, farmers often have to pay for land as well as the costs of raising animals.Raising animals for a living requires you to make a profit, if you own the land then your cost of living may be very low, allowing you to live on not much money let alone money from animals. This is called dirt farming, making a living farming the land without hired help or tenants. As opposed to sharecropping, working for a planter or landlord in exchange for a share of the crop.Some crops and animals make more than others given the space, time, and resources available. Pigs grow quickly to market and make a good return, herbs are a "gateway crop" as they make a good return with little space, like chives. If you do raise say sheep or goats, go for a high quality breed of the animal specific to your type of farming, whether it is meat or milk or wool, using the space you have, otherwise you will be competing with factory farms.
>>2845579>sharecropperTenant farmer working on rented land.>dirt farmingWorking the land yourself as a farmer and making a living.>freeholdOwning land privately for life, no rent or mortgage. Reduces costs for farming, farming reduces taxes.>leasingCropland and pastureland rented out for cash, under $100/acre per year, for running livestock and growing crops.>Section 502Rural development loans from the USDA for farms with single family housing units. Must make below 115% of median household income.A farm is a business that can be unincorporated, such as if a spouse operates and makes a living on a farm as an unincorporated business then they file as Schedule F for taxes.
>>2845587>such as if a family* operates and makes a living on a farm as an unincorporated business then they file as Schedule F for taxes.If a family between two spouses operate a farm and make a living from that without incorporating it as a business, it is a Schedule F.The household income of owner-operator farming households is about 95k or 28% higher than the median household income, which is primarily in suburbs. Some farms do well, but some farms can also go bankrupt and be foreclosed on.
>>2845588So say you work a job or raise a small amount of animals that nets only 30k, but you own the land so you pay only 300 total per year in property tax as your housing cost, under 50 bucks a month.Utilities, groceries, maintenance, you don't really have much pressure to survive and can live in a very slow pace with the seasons and the animals.
>>2845591>So say you work a job or raise a small amount of animals that nets only 30k30k is not a small amount, but you get the picture, the median of the owner-operator farms that are functional and successful is about 90k per year, lot of people way out in the sticks just work normal jobs as well like police officer or carpenter
>>2842375if you have green pastures sheep will give you more milk than goats, if you live in arid lands with lots of thorny plants then goats are superior since sheep are very picky. However goats are rebellious and will drive you insane if you aren't hardcore.
>>2846185And another advantage of goats is that they make the best manure available which doesn't need to be composted, you can use it straight out of their pooper, if you have crops you need to add that to the equation.
>>2842100The more important question is do you have enough land for grazing. You need to draw your paddocks and sections on a map and calculate what you could support. If you can't do it year round then you need to think about structures/deep bedding/feed for when you don't have grass, and pick livestock that fit your situation. Chickens/pigs lend well to eating table scraps, deep bedding, and putting on weight with feed. I tried pure grassfed rabbits (Californian breed) and they lost weight on good pasture if they didn't have pellets. If you are serious about sheep without deworming, see Greg Judy's YouTube channel. He uses st. Croix hair sheep, but the key is they don't get grain and never spend time in a barn, they are moved at least every 2 days year round.
>>2842909No.Eugenics.Those who survive will thrive.
>>2842383there's a huge taboo here about slaughtering in front of living animal
>>2847338I didn't have the space to do it anywhere else at the time. Otherwise I risked doing it in front my of neighbor's children. It didn't stop the ducks and chickens from eating the unwanted bits.
>>2847338I would agree with that if it wasn't in front of birds. Lots of people online slaughter rabbits in front of chickens and they try to peck at the carcass while they are processing. I coop my chickens up just because I don't want to be tripping on them when processing.>>2842383Why not hang the rabbit when processing? It's so much harder to prevent fur contamination in the meat using the table.>>2842291Nobody is going to die of protein poisoning in the modern era. Most chicken and rabbit recipes start with butter in the pan. Chickens and rabbits are an economical protein because of subsidized feed. I still prefer red meat but growing meat rabbits saves a lot of money. If you did have to survive, you could survive on rabbits as long as you eat the body cavity fat and the organs.
>>2842383fuck you
Bump.
>>2845389The Amish don't see technology used for absolute good (disease reduction) as bad. It's hard to imagine a sane, especially religious, person, thinking it's wrong on at least a conceptual level.
>>2849333Vaccinations fucks up natural selection and makes us dependent on a technology that can only be produced in a lab.
>>2849378You are a retard.
>>2843295What means the term heuristic? I always see it and it makes me curious
>>2849471https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heuristicit's basically the idea of accepting a "good enough" solution without understanding the details. In this case, anon learned that vaccines released halfway through development withoutn proper tests (or in one case, falsified tests) ended up doing more harm than good to the people vaccinated with them - and extrapolated from there that applying properly tested vaccines to animals might harm the people consuming their eggs, milk and meat.He's wrong, btw, as classic vaccines (=deactivated or weakened viruses or bacteria) cannot have an effect past the immune response. To be fair, the initial immune response might still be lethal if the deactivation / weakening was done impossible, which is why the oral poli vaccination tripled polio rates in the west over 50 years, for example. But once the aftereffects of the vaccination are over, with those vaccines, there's nothing left behind.mRNA vaccines are a different matter, as those will make vaccinated cells create part of the virus, which can lead to autoimmune complications (immune system may associate your cells with virus, start destroying them, and kill you).
>>2842386City slicker detected
>>2849486Nobody trusts you.
>>2849486Why are "classical" vaccines good?It will only breed a populas that can handle a lower grade infection (vaccination) over a full active/alive infection.This leads to a populas that can't handle real infections from nature but will be dependent on a industrial laboratory made weakened infections (vaccines).What if the access to these vaccines will not be possible in a near or far future?Vaccines may be good in short term on a individual scale, but in long term it may chase devastating effects on the entire populas.
>>2842100youre gonna need a ton of land so you can rotate fields, the amount will depend on the herd size you are going with. youre also going to need a lot of fencing and some specialized fencing depending on your location. 8+ foot fences to keep out deer and elk, electric fencing to keep out bears. that can get really expensive really fast. if you yolo sheepherder it then you will need weapons to fight off theseeee same animals and that might not be exactly legal because lots of governments make it intentionally hard by making these predators and pesks 'protected' so that smaller opperators cant afford to keeplivestock..
>>2842431>glorious chariot of the gods>a repurposed greenhouse containing a rabbit hutch and containers for fodder and livestock food>pretty standard polyethylene, seen in every modern homestead>domesticated fowl will stay in their area as long as they percieve it as having plenty of resources as all homegrowmen know>bro saw horse standing by incase its needed>make shift diy tool wagon pillaged from a boomer's estate sale, furbaby parents absolutely seeething>anon's glove removed so he can take a picture, providing proof with shoe on head and time stamp>gut bucket, to save gutts for fishing bait and/or compost>empty planter buckets, already served their purpose over the summer and now allowed a season of rest>standard in use plastic table with small amounts of stains strategically placed by one of the op's 5 demigod children>used glove functioning as proof that 4chadder intentionally stopped in the middle of his busy day to interact with anonsthe shrew fears the outdoor appalacian homesteader
>>2849535>Why are "classical" vaccines good?cuz the fucking government wont let you shoot random migrating birds on your property who then spread disease to your flock when they stop to steal some food or share water.
>>2849500What, did you receve that information through your tinfoil hat's antenna?>>2849535>Why are "classical" vaccines good?Are they? I said they were safe if prepared properly. Whether they are good, or whether anything can even be good or bad, for that matter, is a question for philosophers.As for the rest of your rant, you're not completely wrong (though oversimplifying). But why prioritise for the fitness of the population as a whole, when the steps needed to imprve it may remove yourself from it?I mean, if you want to risk your life for some abstract ideal, that's your right. I simply wouldn't recommend it.And yes, Salmonella is real. As is Trichinosis (though that's more relevant to parasite treatments than vaccinations). I wouldn't want to risk either.
>>2842100I have the same question but I am in an HOA so that may complicate things.
>>2852100Fuck your HOA. Become ungovernable.
>>2849985>Salmonella is real. As is TrichinosisIsn't this a non issue if prepared properly (cooking)?
>>2853984Why do you have to prepare the food exactly?
>>2853990It makes it tasty and less parasites or bad bacteria.
>>2853984Absolutely. Which is why OP (who I'm pretty sure by now is just baiting) Insists on eating everything raw.
>>2853999>It makes it tastyHow is it more tasty if it's dry and the texture is destroyed? >less parasites or bad bacteriaOnly if they are treated with vaccines, antibiotics, dewormers, grain etc.
>>2854002>Only if they are treated with vaccines, antibiotics, dewormers, grain etc.No.You just kill it with fire.
>>2854208>No.You have to explain why you think so.
>>2842431Post your homestead, faggot
>>2842100I'm a renter. Is keeping hens in my apartment for free eggs the best way to become more self sufficient?
>>2854580The eggs won't be free because you'll have to pay for their feed. Chickens do best when they're not confined to a cage all day so it would be better if you let them out, but they will cause a lot of trouble in an apartment. I've heard quails are better for an apartment, but I think they do better outside of a cage too. If you decide to keep birds in your apartment then you should add 2% crushed lump charcoal to their feed. You'll have to crush it in the parking lot, but it will cut down on the odor of their manure. You'll also need a way to dispose of their manure besides just throwing it in the trash. Unless you grow a lot of plants in your apartment you'll have to sell it or give it away. I think you would have an better time all around with an herb garden and a worm bin. Herbs are expensive and you can use them with every meal. Container varieties of vegetables like tomatoes, zucchini, and peppers might be worth it for you if you have a balcony or patio. The worm bin lets you generate high quality compost from your food and paper waste, saving you money on fertilizer and trash bags. I recommend a tower vermicomposter which you can make out of tupperware. Make sure you get composting worms and not earth worms because earth worms won't compost you food properly. If you live somewhere with trendy restaurants that sell microgreens then you could get a big bag of seeds and try your hand at it. It will cost more per ounce then store bought vegetables or leafy greens, but if you can sell them then it's worth it.
