Is vertical farming a game changer or was it a scam all along?
Nah it works - corn gets pretty tall, I've seen it
>>2844513it works at small scale intensive hobby gardening. it is semi-economical in a gigacity to grow local greens. doesn't work well for anything that isn't salad greens or strawberries.
>>2844513The solar punk versions are economically impossible. For a limited number of use cases, you could set up in a warehouse outside of a high density area and possibly make enough from sales to the neighboring population to cover costs and maybe even be profitable.
>>2844513Its basically a meme. Why invest in all that infrastructure and high cost bullshit when you can just grow stuff in dirt?
>>2844513If it uses natural light then it's great. Even better if it's aeroponic.
>>2844562Urbanites dream of a future where they no longer have to reply on rural hicks for their food while reserving everything outside of the city limits for the wealthy.
vine plants can easily be grown vertically. cucumbers, tomatoes, melons, etc. without much trouble. hanging baskets for other plants are simple enough also. no need to complicate things, you don't need a high tech facility to grow more in less space.
>>2844562Because they want to sell it all to China for representation or some shit.
Depends for what. We used it in Antarctica with success. But if you have land use it.
Other than a few cities with geographic constraints like being on an island or surrounded by mountains, even the largest, most densely populated megacities have plenty of low density areas in which farming could take place. The added costs for going vertical are just too high for it to make sense.>>2844822Think all of us, myself included, are somewhat conflating vertical farming and hydroponics, probably because the former pretty much requires the latter even though the reverse isn't true. Guess it also depends on what can be considered vertical. There's an aquaponics farm in Detroit that grows greens on the ground flood and has a bunch of tanks for tilapia in the basement. Technically that is vertical farming but likely not what OP had in mind, and Detroit has no shortage of empty lots.
The soil acts as an immune system for the plants as well as a resource broker. Without the soil blight spreads unchecked. I was told the large scale operations were using a nutrient rich water that was recurculated; filtering it would take out the nutrients. Hydroponics is like giving your plants aids, works for Micheal Jordan not for Freddie Mercury
>>2845824what about aquaponics?
>>2845824>a nutrient rich water that was recurculated; filtering it would take out the nutrients.Filtering doesn't remove nutrients and recirculated water is filtered.
>>2845825It's difficult to keep everything in balance, especially the water quality. Fun as a quirky hobby, but other than in some limited applications of near self sustainability, you're better off going to the market for your fish and greens. The large scale systems you see are subsidized in some way, either with research funds or through some kind of "green initiative".
>>2844513It can't compete with traditional soil farming economically. Too many inputs, too much energy, too many manhours. It might work for some low volume niche crops, and the technologies and techniques will be important for space exploration, but it isn't replacing large scale farming for subsidence.
>>2845844I put an early model Aerogarden on a Kill-a-Watt unit and found that growing basil in the winter is worth the cost but for stuff like lettuce or strawberries, especially during warmer months, it's not anywhere close to being worthwhile.
It has some notable applications, but is not replacing monocrop grains. Rabbits are raised for meat in vertical hutches, some of them are large like 5x3 and are installed in rows outdoors and indoors.
>>2845867Now you've reminded me of the pig high rises in China.
>>2845867Meat rabbits are very profitable and breed like rabbits. Hutches are a simple woodworking project, just cabinets for rabbits made of wood and wire. Rabbits are very quiet creatures and can live in hutches, but they do need fresh air and socialization now and then to keep them happy.
>>2845871kek I was thinking about those the other day, looks like a apartment complex for humans, a khrushchevka for longpig
>>2845874Building hutches ("luxury apartments") for quiet office workers, but they do need fresh air and socialization now and then to keep them happy.
>>2844513The only way vertical farming can be a game changer is if we actually modify crops themselves to become taller.
Examples where it workshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0B3ZWo2wGKUhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZghkt5m1uYAnd does nothttps://grist.org/agriculture/appharvest-indoor-farming-morehead-kentucky/So if you have a clear niche or want to chase seasons it is a good idea.
>>2845840https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEzDA5zbSho
>>2845883Look up walking stick kale
>>2845879At this point why not just start building out of pallets.
>>2844513I'll bite. Modern agriculture depends on non renewable resources, beyond being unsustainable, food grown in a pot just to save space but pumped with artificial fertilizers are going to be lacking in nutrition not to mention flavor. Vertical farming with permaculture (permanent) design practices is possible, and was applied by Bill Mollison in New York City back in the 70s iirc. I'm sure there's some resources out there for the curious. As long as you are feeding the soil and giving plants what they need, veritical planting can work. Some plants grow really well together, see picrel "3 sisters" method. Where the corn becomes a trellis for the beans and you have a ground crop occupying the same space - three plants occupying one location. Beyond the vertical structure, they are all adding to the soil's nutrition or drawing nutrition to the surface via roots for the other plants to use and when their yield is harvested can be left to compost back to the soil again.
>>2844562>just grow stuff in dirt?Because growing stuff in dirt requires a lot of hydrocarbon
>>2846000And meme vertical farming doesn't?
>>2845844If agricultural workers had to be paid at least the federal minimum wage instead of $3/hr then most crops would be grown vertically. Pretty much everything that couldn't be harvested by combine. You don't realize how much Mexican labor it takes to run an American farm.
>>2845871Imagine the smell.
>>2846252>Imagine the smell.Probably smells better than the rest of china.
>>2845900the subs are hilarious
>>2845966Don't forget deforesting the land and fucking up the nation's water tables.
You get a high yield per meter but a poor production efficiency. Anyone can stack two hydro plots on top of one another, it just makes them hard to handle. hauling water and vertilizer halfway across the country for no good goddamn reason.You know who loves this shit? the kind of urban vermin who are trying to destroy the countryside so fear being cut off from food. it's a marxist food lifeboat
>>2845825Been there, done that. It doesn't work unless you can keep the water temp above say 65f/18deg C at all times (the plants won't grow) Also the system will always, ALWAYS be deficient in SOMEthing, no exceptions. It's an enormous waste of time, money and resources for the amount of produce that comes out.
>>2845874Pigs are easier to breed, by far.
>>2845871>Man made horrors beyond your comprehension
>>2846826>Pigs are easier to breed, by far.There's a joke in here somewhere...
>>2844513I remember reading from someone that some of the largest companies who invested into it within the last fifteen years basically got wiped out due to one of these things:>fungus or mold went wild in moist closed enviroment>too much chemicals to kill above, killed the plants>trying to keep everything not sterile enough>keeping everything too sterile>no good bugs>too many bad bugs>not enough of some mineral>too much of some chemical and not enough fine tuning>no natural regeneration of the soil>failure to use sand as a base material>etc And consequently some companies basically lost insane amounts, 20,000sqft of crops dead in warehouses, massive losses and tons of money flushed down the drain. Some of which sounded like scale issues, where they can do it on small scales, but as soon as they start trying to do warehouses to feed a lot of people, suddenly things start going horribly wrong.
>>2844541what if we plant them in parking garages? we can put mirrors on the ground around the perimeter and on the ceilings and walls of each level to reflect the light throughout each level
I have an ebb and flow setup with a plastic tote and an ikea plastic bath container full of leca clay balls. Two 25W strip lights are enough to get lettuce to grow normally. Small aquarium pump turns on for 15 minutes 4 times a day to flood the ikea tub, then it drains into the tote below. I don't think any flowering plants like tomatoes would survive though.Someday I wish to have a greenhouse with one section dedicated to hydro and the rest to normal growing.Most businesses fail because of cascading failure due to scale. I don't think anything beyond a greenhouse is feasible.
>>2846884>fungus or mold went wild in moist closed enviromentThat reminds me that mushrooms are grown in what are practically vertical farms.>do not need light>like dark, cramped, moist places>sensitive to chemicals, do not need any for growth
>>2844513They kind of already do that with the espalier technique, but its a pain in the ass because you have to 'train' the branches to move in the direction you want them to go.
>>2846908As a consumer, if I had the option to park in the Corn Garage instead of the Hobo Garage, I'd take corn every time. You're on to something here.
>>2845848I had one of those until the pump died and it make more sense economically as a room light replacement on a shelf, so I was getting lettuce for free, freeish. The capital cost was huge so in the end I probably paid like 5 bucks per pound for lettuce even if the electricity was free
>>2845840>The large scale systems you see are subsidized in some way,All intensive agriculture makes use of extensive subsidies
>>2847817True though I'd be curious as to the amount per unit produced as field based agriculture produce copious amounts of food while these more intensive systems can produce food more densely, the amount produced per unit of subsidy doesn't seem like it would be a good return. As other have pointed out, they can be viable in places where transportation from field agriculture location is expensive. >>2847403If you view it as a sort of hobby and get enjoyment out of it or just want greater control over your food sourcing, a set up like the one you have seems pretty ideal. I often fix things around my house with 3D prints even though from an economic point of view, I'd be better off buying a part or replacing the entire item rather than spending time modeling the part and going through a couple of iterations to get it right. I get satisfaction from fixing things instead of throwing them away. Certainly is some non-economic value in that.
>>2847940"field based agriculture" is a form of intensive agriculture
>>2845876You mean shortpig
>>2844513It’s a meme. Gardening is not hard and there’s no shortage of retards trying to over complicate it. Compost is king, and easy to make: just pile organic material up and watch it break down, turning it every now and then, and then till it into the ground when it’s ready. Or fill a raised bed, whatever. Grass clippings, coffee grounds, shredded newspaper, mulch, tea leaves; if you’re not making compost for free, you’re doing it wrong. Unless you’re indoors using a shitload of bay lights with a high Kelvin rating, then an army of towers outside is just casting shadow on other valuable space. Hydroponics isn’t worth it unless you have no other choice. Keep chickens if you can, rabbits are even better for decent meat and endless cold compost manure.
>>2844569>doesn't realize vertical farms are the most affulent yuppie shit imaginable next to skiingThis but outside are cities are murderous loser wastelands like in Judge Dress, like they are supposed to be.
>>2847413is mushroom even nutritious?
>>2850634Wildly.
Video on why they fail.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLiuS0VRawMtl;dw: not economically viable and/or poor management
>>2844513Its a useless scam. They can only grow nutrient deficient leafy things. There are already plenty of vining plants that do more in less space, with far less infrastructure and energy requirements. I I have a 12 ft by 31ft alley style backyard and I grow shit tons of cherry tomatoes, squash, melons, etc. I also trellis grapes, peas, and beans. I live in 7a. Absolutely no reason to look outside nature for these things. Basically any growing niche you can think of already has hundreds of edibld plants all across the globe you could grow in an area.
>>2845966I tried this, but my beans and peas never grew up the corn stalks, and my squash just grew over everything, including the corn. A few stalks even died, the squash vines grew up the stalk and formed enough squash on it to snap them.
>>2846908You want fragile structures around multi-ton vehicles that blind everyone when its bright?
>>2846908>>2850982Just use LEDs
>>2844513Enormous expenditures of materials to relocate production slightly closer to consumption is not a solution. The only economically viable vertical/urban/dense farms might be lettuce and greens - but then you're eating vegetables grown in Brooklyn air and water.
>>2844562Because land area is finite and we want to make farming like other industries that you can scale as much as your capital allows
>>2850977Did you plant everything at once?
>>2847413fungiculture is gonna be a game changer for the west, not purely in the sense of self-sustainability (which we're good at already most of us), but also in indivualized farming and health. I'm surprised it hasn't already skyrocketed in popularity.
>>2845966>Practiced by the IroquoisIt was also practiced by nahuas in the central valley of MexicoIt was more complex with other crops in the mix, most details are probably lost
>>2851157No, across several weeks. The corn first, it was about 8 inches tall after 3 weeks. Then I planted peas and polebeans. After those sprouted and started connecting to the corn I planted the squash.
>>2851021
>>2851324A bottle contains a colony of bacteria and enough nutrients to colonize the whole bottle. The colony has a doubling period of one minute and will completely fill the bottle at exactly noon.>What time is the bottle half full?A miracle has happened: The bacterial colony finds three whole new bottles complete with nutrients.>What time are all the bottles completely full?>Can you apply this idea to anything other than bacteria?
>>2851007>but then you're eating vegetables grown in Brooklyn air and water.Yeah but muh NYC water that makes the pizza taste good
https://disnovation.org/farm.php
>>2844513We already have it, it's called silviculture: grow shit under trees which also have shit you can harvest.
>>2851508that's obviously not the same thing, retard
>>2851598Why not?
>>2846249Farming Corn is close to not even requiring any human labor.
>>2851742Only if you have enough land to justify the cost of a harvester. You can hire people to work your field for you, but then why not just buy your food at the store?
