If we use precision machining to machine components for precision machining machines, then how did we build the first precision machining machine without any precision machining technolojees?
>>2880169Aliens
>>2880169A rough machine could build something much more precise than itself. Then use that machine to make something even more refined. Hell if you can just get a flat surface to gauge off of you can hand scrape something extremely precisely by just bluing it up and knocking off the high spots until it all comes into flatness.
>>2880169Most machine tools are ground The tables, ways, tool holders, spindles all that shit is precision ground
>>2880169Look into the work of Maudslay and Whitworth. Maudslay's work with screw threads and whitworth's invention of the three-plate method of creating a flat surface set the stage for everything we have now. The invention of the lathe and it's development into the engine lathe was the piece that put it all together.
>>2880169It's not hard as long as you don't need specific dimensions, consistency is the important part.
>>2880191Lathes predates the works you mentioned by millennia. The invention of the micrometer also was a major contribution to precision instruments. Firearms development and mass production also had a significant contribution to this all.
>>2880169standardization.a millimeter is meaningless unless it's standardized.a inch is too. all measurements are arbitrary.when the first precision machines were standardized is what your thinking and not the first machine.I think railroads might be a good example big enough to see that precision is just an agreed upon arbitrary value. before the standardization of railroads we had competing track widths, sizes, etc.that happens with a nut, a bolt, to an entire car. all cars on the road look the same now, not because they are precision engineered, to measure any of them, but because they are standardized.
>>2880223Last part is a strange excursion. Cars nowadays look mostly the same due to aerodynamics and companies having the tools to properly model against it.
>>2880191
>>2880191Check out thishttps://ericweinhoffer.com/blog/2017/7/30/the-whitworth-three-plates-method
They do this with compilers in computer science. It's called "bootstrapping". You write your best effort by hand in assembler and then re-write in the language and compile with the compiler you just built. Precision machining can't be too different so long as your initial version is good enough.
A book to read:https://archive.org/details/foundationsofmec0000waynTwo videos to watch:https://youtu.be/NjbvOTUSqdI?si=aGOsjVlt2JZCdpfghttps://youtu.be/OWa3F4bKJsE?si=FElwEobt0wUcApMs
>>2880169Thank me later
>>2880240 hereActually those videos, whilst valuable, are not what you need. Try this:https://youtu.be/gNRnrn5DE58?si=PtY5LRztuQa2oOEp
>>2880169Copernicus lenses
>>2880169>If we use precision machining to machine components for precision machining machines, then how did we build the first precision machining machine without any precision machining technolojees?Well "we" kinda didn't in the sense that you aren't part of the "we" because the "we" who did it is people with triple digit IQ which excludes you.
>>2880226car may not of been the Best example, but it's something everyone seems to have access to and can understand the world is built on tolerances and not precision if they get a tape measure out. hell compare two tape measures close enough.precision is an extremely niche need and all I'm trying to say is I don't think the machines are as precise as he imagines.I don't know a good way to explain this. I hope it makes sense tho.a foot is a foot cause we said it's a foot.a millimeter is a millimeter cause we all said and agreed it's a millimeter. all measurements are arbitrary. if I'm working outside doing fence spacing, I'll cut a board the length of the space to keep the. even. it's a arbitrary measurement, I could call it 1 post, 1/4 post. 1/600th post. 0.6post. I could just arbitrarily start the idea of "precision" or as I been calling it. standardization.weight is interesting. a metric ton vs an imperial ton were never agreed upon or standardized down to a ton and remain two different weights.
>>2880226>due to aerodynamicsalmost.aerodynamics certainly do not favor the enormous monstrosities which have taken over the roads. safety is partially a factor but mostly down to what car companies think customers want which ends up being people who buy new cars which is unfortunately is usually stupid wives of middle earning men.the driver is cost. there are plenty of cars now who, due to monopolization of different marques by mega brands, share the same chassis and parts. which..actually i don't really know what anons point was sorry...
>>2880489The key is understanding that "accuracy" and "precision" are two different things...often related in practice, but not the same thing.Simply put, accuracy is about meeting standards set forth in the design/plans for what you are making...a 5" widget has to be 5" long, a second on a watch must be one second long. With time and skill you can usually achieve that goal using the simplest tools.Precision matters when you need each widget to be identical enough to replace any other widget. It's about reproduction and repeatability.Gunsmithing is a great illustration, for a long time the mechanisms were quite complex and intricate, or could be...but they were one offs and even if you had two guns of the same model most parts were not interchangeable without some fitting, if at all. It wasn't until precision machining came along that you could quickly produce parts that were similar enough to be an easy in/out replacement by a layman.Machine tools are the same way- the operations like milling and drilling and turning are ancient knowledge and acheivable by hand, eventually machines were developed to speed the process and exert forces beyond what a human could generate- but still ( and until fairly recently) those machines were built the old way so that each one's parts were uniquely fitted to itself and if you needed a replacement part it would be made from scratch or modified from an existing one off a similar machine.It's only been in the post ww2 era that achieving precision in machines like that has become easy/cheap enough that a non-machinist can keep them in parts and do the work to install them. 1/2
>>28805162/2Small arms manufacturing got there earlier but still had/has issues with the exacting tolerances needed for them to function at peak performance...the tradeoff for cheap universal parts is usually lower tolerances.Look at analog timepieces and they are probably the most complex and precise mechanisms ever devised...and were mostly made by hand one at a time and still need individual replacement parts to be hand fitted by a skilled technician.There's little point to trying to up the mass manufacturing precision and interchangeability of parts on fine chronographs the way it was with firearms...and even now the precision required to do it may still be mostly unattainable at any reasonable cost, and may add nothing to (or even degrade) the timepiece's accuracy as a measuring tool, which is priority #1.A modern lathe or milling machine has benefitted from the advancements in precision manufacturing used to make it, but how well it performs in manufacturing identical parts isn't as dependent on that as one might think. Where it helps is that the modern ones are versatile and easier to keep running- old school machines may have only done one or two things really well and if you needed more you built a new machine...and fixing them was more like building than replacing.
>>2880223cars are not standardized and it's actually a huge fucking issue, you clearly have no clue what you're talking about
>>2880524Honda and Toyota does a pretty good job following standards Just shit like bmw, Tesla, Ferrari, lucid, rivian, Mercedes, mcclaren and other actors just say fuck that we want our own bullshit That and like all of fucking Stellantis locking out their diagnostics and bmw charging mechanics a monthly fee
>>2880524It's true in the sense that there are established STANDARDS that allow for things like nuts and bolts and tires and fuel formulations to be reliably the same where it matters, and also allowed a parts/accessories aftermarket to thrive rather than be strangled by proprietary differences used to try to hinder cheap/ easy repair and maintenence.>By 1916 SAE had 1,800 members. At the annual meeting that year, representatives from the American Society of Aeronautic Engineers, the Society of Tractor Engineers, as well as representatives from the power boating industry made a pitch to SAE ***for oversight of technical standards*** in their industries. Aeronautics was a fledgling industry at that time. Early supporters of the concept of a society to represent aeronautical engineers were Thomas Edison, Glenn Curtiss, Glenn Martin, and Orville Wright.
>>2880178Yup, and getting a perfectly flat surface is something that can be done with caveman tech if you use the Whitworth triple plate method.
>>2880531Modern aluminum extrusions are made very straight by the extrusion process, and then grabbing the ends and pulling them with tons of force so the aluminum stretches a bit.Kind of like a line level except it’s an aluminum rail rather than a string.
>>2880169Does that kid look like AvE?
>>2880548>are made very straight by the extrusion processSmall detail: Extrusions are not AT ALL straight coming out of the die. They look like something out of a play dough press until they're stretched.
>>2880548Oh they are straight, but they aren't micron levels of flat that you need for precise machining like you get with the whitworth method. Not to mention Aluminum isn't temperature stable. It's why surface plates are usually made out of cast iron or granite. Temperature changes don't cause distortions that would throw off a job. A good surface plate and patience are all the real tools you need to make an accurate machine tool from scratch.
>>2880551we don't know what he looks like but AvE was also the first thing i thought when i saw this
>>2880574That machine and shop is far too clean to be AvE's
>>2880169If the first attempt at making a drawing board had failed, what would we go back to?
>Haas>precision machiningThat's a good one, like grounded aviation or deep sea astronomy.
>>2880169Read this.
>>2880574I do know what ave looks like.In the early days, he used to show his face from time to time on youtube.Back in the day, he has a mini-series on making your own tiles, and he had some kind of kiln as I recall. He also when through a gold refining phase.Unusualy guy.Once, he actually made something with an arduino!!!
>>2880626The place I work at holds stuff down to 5 tenths or so with HAAS. When it absolutely needs to be right we use the Matsuuras and Kerns however
>>2880667Quite pathetic, the cheapest workhorses Mazak sells for the price of a Haas will effortlessly do half that all day long.If you buy a HAAS you're just clueless.
>>2880719If you think a HAAS can't hold a tenth or two reliably, you've really drunk the kool-aid. Accuracy isn't their issue, it's heavy cuts on hard materials.
>>2880729Unless you have a low hour haas you’re not holding a tenth on it… unless you think a tenth is 0.010”
>>2880818Maybe you can't.
>>2880729OP’s HAAS is only used to make novelty copper hammer heads and novelty grill plates for BBQs.+/- 2mm is fine.
>>2880827A tenth is 0.0001”…. You’re holding that on some CRT equipped linear railed, umbrella tool changer ass haas? The government requires gps lockouts on controllers with processors that accurate because it can be used for nuclear weapons manufacturing… your telling me some clapped out haas is in need of a gps lockout?
>>2880919That's not a tenth of an inch you fucking retard, go back to /fa/
>>2880933Tenth of a thou, dipshit.>>2880919>you're holding that on some CRT equipped linear railed, umbrella tool changer ass haas?Unironically yes, used to make X-ray components on a Haas from the mid-90's that had .008" of backlash. Could still get shit within .0002" because some of us actually know what they're doing. And no, it wasn't a "1 out of 10 parts are good" the scrap rate was under .1%.
>tripcunt with skill issuesMore at 11I understand Adam has made good use of his HAAS and I'm willing to bet he's holding tenths all day everyday.
>>2880919> gps lockoutsHAAS are the guys caught selling stuff to Russia.Enjoy them while they last and you can still get parts for them.
>>2881045>HAAS are the guys caught selling stuff to Russia.Through multiple shell companies in China. Do you think they have the time or manpower to investigate every single order?
>>2880216only because bongs have a narrow vocabular. There is an ocean of difference between the pole lathe and a screw fed saddle lathe, one requires a true master of his craft for precise copies, the other a mere taught operator. The Moment you swap decades of experience for written instructions is when it all took of>>2880624people used the floor and made 1:1 scale drawings on it
>no precisionhitting it with your hand>some precisionaffix a blade using twine or sap or some such>more precisiondevelop something to bind it more strongly - like wedging it into a crevice>more precisioncreate something fixed sufficiently that you can get a repeated shape>more precisionmake a repeated shape that allows you to construct something that lets you affix things into a stonger position>more precisiondevelop unrelated technologies, like blacksmithing, that let you make things more precise by using better materials>more precisioncreate a machine that can generate reasonably precise cuts repeatedly>more precisionMake something more precise than that>more precisionmake something more... you get itrock in hand = roughrock attached to other rock = less roughmetal attached to metal = fineit just goes progressively. We are continuously breaking records of precision even to this day.
>>2880493>but mostly down to what car companies think customers want*mostly down to what the government coerces them to make
>>2880246Better video from the same channelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djB9oK6pkbA
>>2881003So when I say accuracy I mean whe you type in g54 g01 f50. X-0.0015 That it will always hit that same spot within a tenth. Yeah glass scales, absolute encoders are accurate but only to a certain level of build quality Haas has enough slop in their tail components and flex in their less than ridged setup that not every part is going to be precise Sure you can dial in your first article that’s skill but once you hand it off to an operator, it won’t hold that tight of a tolerance part to part The fact that you don’t know that is kinda sad
>>2881078Accuracy, repeatability, and precision are three different things.>Sure you can dial in your first article that’s skill but once you hand it off to an operator, it won’t hold that tight of a tolerance part to part We would run thousands of these parts.
>>2881084Repeatability is accuracy Your measure of a good machine is it can do a good part if you baby it…and a great program is 1 in 4 good parts my measure of a good machine is set it up an run it on a parts robot that’s why we are disagreeing I have Japanese level quality standards You have Mexican level quality standards of good enough
>>2881203You're such a stupid, fucking cunt. Literally nothing you said is true, or accurate to what I've said.
>>2880169It depends on how much you want to ignore your metrology department
>>2881222Okay beaner I’m sure your parts work just fine in Mexico
