>>2884079 (OP)
>raising goats for meat
>not chickens
NGMI

>>2884079 (OP)
chicken and fish are far more efficient ways to become self sufficient for meat protein intake.

No, that's why people who had this diet in middle ages were rich, ugly, and had feet so fucked up from gout + gay pointy shoes that they couldn't even walk, because rich people didn't need to do that.
Carnivore diet is decadent trust fund baby diet, you're a moron if you for even one moment thought that it could be good way to live.

>>2884099
>>2884112
Red meat has more nutrients and fat.
>>2884137
There are many people thriving on it and don't have diseases like gout, the point of this thread is very different.

>>2884218
>muh heckin nutrients
>muh heckin fat
fat is an antinutrient, the less, the better

>>2884219
>muh heckin nutrients
So you're trying to say that your body doesn't need nutrients? Can you please explain how that works?
>fat is an antinutrient
Proof?

>>2884222
your fat, weak body is proof, fuck off faggot

>>2884223
I'm feel reall sorry for you, the malnutrition is making you so emotional that you lash out at others.

>>2884225
that's just my overly high testosterone level, sorry

>>2884079 (OP)
Are we talking like a desert island survival thing or a real life thing? We get through a whole year with 40 cornish cross chickens and putting 2 lambs in the freezer. That is feeding two people as much as we want to eat while giving some away. Of course also egg laying chickens. Planning on a milk cow in the next year or two. I would want my meat and milk to be two separate things. Cow bred for milk and goats bred for meat. Dual purpose stuff does not work well unless its mad max time and you dont have access to breed specific livestock. You dont want to raise a broiler to 5 pounds in 5 months when you can raise on to 10lbs in 9 weeks. Same with the goats. Get goats that are bred for meat.

>>2884229
>a real life thing
That.
>40 cornish cross chickens and putting 2 lambs in the freezer
You're eating only that? Please explain how exactly and for two people at that, it's really important to me.
>Cow bred for milk and goats bred for meat
Obviously that would be optimal but it's too costly in the beginning.

>>2884137
a meat diet won't give you gout, it requires fructose

>>2884263
Cornish cross come in at at least 9lbs per bird. That is 360lbs of chicken but more like 390 or so because some are 11 or so lbs. 2 lambs puts at least 120lbs of meat in the freezer. Those are processed at 9 or so months old. That is around 510lbs of meat or more. 510 divided by 365 is 1.39lbs per day. We also have 4 dogs and freeze carcass meat and organ meat which cuts dog food cost in half.

>>2884219
>fat is an antinutrient, the less, the better
Oh, interesting, could you explain further or point to a study I could read on the topic?

>>2884274
no idea bro, it just seems like athletes try to minimize bodyfat in their body because fat is literally not good for you or something

>>2884275
But that's nonsensical.
It's almost lysekoist reasonming tier.

Athletes generally seek to reduce their bodyfat because it makes their power to weight ratio a little better.
but athletic performance and health are two seperate objectives.
in some sports fat acts as padding and a support structure protecting the organs from damage.

>>2884279
He thinks eating fat makes you fat even though it increases your testosterone which is known for the opposite effect. You're not replying to some that's mentally sane.

>>2884280
Is this more of the legacy of ancel keys perverting nutritional science for food industry backhanders again?

>>2884271
Okay but can you raise these chicken purely through pasture(excluding winter)? And how exactly can you time their slaughter so you don't run out of meat and don't have to freeze it either?

>>2884281
He's a vegan.

>>2884280
>it increases your testosterone
that's probably true if you have femoid level of testosterone, otherwise no, it never did it for me

>>2884283
I don't think that explains enough of it, vegans love their, fats from crops like avocados olives, coconut and palms.

>>2884079 (OP)
Cost.
A dairy kid goat will start around $250. An adult dairy goat will start around $500. You can get a pullet (hen) for like $10. If you are able to wait, you can get day old chicks for like $2-5 each. You would be better off just using goats for milk and chickens for meat and eggs. Also, goat milk is fucking disgusting, unless you like it I guess, so it might be better to put that goat money into a dairy cow. An average dairy cow will easily produce 5+ gallons a day. Dairy cow cost about $1500.

>>2884297
>6 to 12 weeks
That's too much, is not as nutrient dense and can't be pasture only.

>>2884282
LOL we vacuum seal and freeze it like normal people. Thought we were not talking mad max. I get my broiler chicken in the last week of August and process them the first week of November. Best time for us, done with summer heat waves and its usually nice here until December.

>>2884281
Don't eat milk cheese or any dairy. Don't eat any meat. Don't eat avocado, coconut, legumes, or any natural oils.

Enjoy being fat free.

>>2884313
The largest most expensive nutritional trial ever conducted, the womens' health initiative found only one single statistically significant result. That women who REDUCED their fat consumption by 10% were actually 26% more likely to die from a heart attack

now when will you present actual real data to support your position on fat consumption being bad?

>>2884315
you'd need a lot more than 10% reduction to do any damage to yourself, fatass

>>2884318
Could you stop with the childish insults, I'd like to debate the actual scientific evidence.

If you somehow feel personally insulted from what I have so far outlined then I think you need to reappraise your position.

I am willing to substantiate my position with hard data if you are willing to do the same then we can sift through it and come to a mutually acceptable conclusion.

>>2884320
The scientific evidence is in two redditspaces for 3 sentences.

>>2884310
>Thought we were not talking mad max
Some people prefer to save the nutrition.

I have goats and chickens, my parents used to have pigs and rabbits.
I'd raise rabbits and pigs if I were you, mix the meat and eat it like that or just buy a whole cow and a big ass freezer and save yourself the trouble of raising cattle.

>>2884301
>is not as nutrient dense
not important if you have more than you need
>can't be pasture only.
that goes for most farm animals.

>>2884331
Fuck raising pigs. Smart ass mofos always looking for trouble. Never again. There's a reason farms have them behind heavy steel.

>>2884332
>that goes for most farm animals.
Which is why goats are my choice.

>>2884344
Goats are escape artists. Sheep are way easier and taste way better.

>>2884369
I thought about them too but can't decide, really. The goats have better milk and is wanted more.

>>2884079 (OP)
A chicken egg is 70 calories. 2000 calories is 28 eggs. A 4 laying hens will give 3 eggs a day. So 22 chickens.

>>2884377
I can't eat just eggs. Ten at most and raw at that.

>>2884369
>Goats are escape artists
hobble or stake them on the feed. pretend youre a 3rd world shitskin and put them out on the highway right of way for free pasture
>Sheep are way easier
meadow maggots are about the dumbest animals. you need a flock to keep them from leaving the country
>taste better
[x] doubt
lame that had a heartbeat the morning you eat it is delicious but old sheep is fucking gross

>>2884375
>The goats have better milk and is wanted more.
Wat?

>>2884383
More nutrients.

>>2884385
Are you a goat fucker?

>>2884390
No, what's wrong with you?

>>2884380
Yes you need to keep a flock which is not a big deal if you are raising sheep for food and sale.Yes they taste better. very few people have even had meat lamb most eat dual purpose new Zealand wool sheep mutton. Our lambs are Dorper/Katahdin crosses banded 2 days after birth and processed well before a year old. zero grain all grass fed. Processed, vacuum sealed and frozen taste just as good as the day they were processed.

>>2884380
>but old sheep is fucking gross
what's your problem with mutton?

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You may like it, but this is what peak performance looks like.

>>2884322
I'm sorry anon, I thought I needed to space it out for clarity since you seemed to not be able to read it properly.

>>2884079 (OP)
>half a kg of meat a day
What the fuck are you, some kind of furry larping as a wolf? You need half that at best, the rest you can do from grains and shit.

>>2884558
grains give me dandruff

>>2884560
Just shave it off, baldie.

>>2884079 (OP)
>Is it really mathematically possible to be a self-sufficient carnivore?
Of course it is. Even if you ignore the possibility of hunting, there's tribes like the mongols that live off their own herds.
>maths
A guy I know lives off his own chickens (and sald, and nothing else... ripped, but also weak af). He's got 25-30 hens that he swaps out each year, meaning he'll raise about 60 chicks, slaughter the old hens, then the cocks, keeping the young hens for the next year and swapping one cock with another keeper to prevent inbreeding.

>>2884099
>>2884079 (OP)
i would need 1 chicken a day maybe more. so i would breed 30 new chickens every month and maybe have 150 chickens at same time.

and i would need maybe 10 breeder chickens for eggs


i think there is no way to be a selfsufficient carnivore

>>2884229
>We get through a whole year with 40 cornish cross chickens and putting 2 lambs in the freezer.

not enough meat/calories
thats maybe 3 month of food for 1 person

>>2884079 (OP)
i guess the only way is a forrest with a big deer population and hunting

>>2884591
wait lambs not even goats. thats barly 2 month of food for 1 person.

To be honest you're self sufficient goats and chickens are too valuable for slaughter unless you have many. Eggs, milk and cheese and a small amount of meat should be ideal for you

>>2884629
The problem is how to manage the meat part which is the point of the whole thread.

>>2884589
>1 chicken a day
If you're seriously eating 5-10 kg of meat and organs (which is what an average meat or two-use chicken will have) in a single day, chances are you're way to fat to keep animals in the first place.

>>2884652
He sounds like a city slicker in which case he's only interested in the muscle meat
>>2884649
This is how it breaks down, a goat will give you around 20lbs of boneless meat if it's an 80lb animal. Consider how long you can store that for. If you want to keep it frozen for 6 months to a year then I'd say slaughter 2 goats and you could have around 400grams allowed per week for a whole year. 800grams per week if you have 2 goats frozen for only 6 months.

>>2884680
Can't get lower than 500 grams of meat a day. I already calculated that it's around six goats a year, the problem is how to do it without running out of goats.

>>2884079 (OP)
Your animals convert the vegetation you cannot eat into food and store these perishables until it is convenient for you to eat them, so yes. the Answer is yes

>>2884715
Okay but how to do it considering what I wrote.

You just need enough land and then it's feasible.

>>2885049
Which is acknowledged in the post.

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>>2884591
Dude you are retarded. Its 600lbs of meat. It gets us through an entire year for 2 people.

>>2885057
Are you saying your lambs weigh over 200 pounds?

>>2885091
Im saying my lambs come in at 150lbs at 9-10 months. My birds come in at at least 9lb a piece some in the 11to12lbs.

>>2884079 (OP)
Rabbits. Buy 3-6 and in a year or so you will be getting one lb a day.

>>2885141
Rabbit starvation is a real thing.

>>2884079 (OP)
I hear that domestic pigeons breed exponentially quickly, as long as they have sufficient access to food, water, and nesting sites.

>>2885157
Yes. Rabbit can't be your only source of food but it can make up the bulk of your meat needs if care is taken to get your other macro needs, especially fat, met. Most people would get bored eating only rabbit anyway.

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>>2884137
>Carnivore diet is decadent trust fund baby diet, you're a moron if you for even one moment thought that it could be good way to live.
The mongols disagree.

>>2885157
Don't eat half starved wild rabbits in the winter as nearly the whole of your diet.
Don't be a fucking retard

>>2885167
I want red meat.

>>2885057
meat lasts for a whole year?

>>2884219
Can you explain how are you getting in fat soluble vitamins w/o eating fat?

>>2885414
>whatIsAFreezer.png

>>2885492
i thought even frozen meat only lasted a few days and as soon as it gets sticky it's getting bad

>>2885493
Im eating meat that is 3 years old and vacuum sealed. Tastes just as good as the day it was sealed. Get a good sealer. Weston is what we use.

bump

another bump

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>>2884079 (OP)
yes.
chickens are how you do it.
I live in the woods and this is basically how it works.
chickens give me eggs. they get old, before they get too old and sick I eat them.

chickens are the only animals you can reliably count on. it's difficult to recover from predation with red meats like goat. beef require special processing equipment and storage.


I literally free range about 200 chickens and when I get hungry I go grab one. if predators come through and they get some the recovery time of replacement is around 3 months and I'd some terrible happens 200 birds have around 6 or 7 different flocks or units.
it would take a extreme act beyond recovery to ever lose all of them even to something like disease. these flocks rarely interact.


they force multiple.
2 chickens becomes 8, becomes 40, becomes 200 in less than 2-3 years.


red meat is genuinely a meme. I eat it but nature provides it as treats.


if anyone tells you otherwise they are lying. I can provide evidence of me living off these birds.

please feel free to ask any questions you might have, but chances are I'm going to be a dick if your right leaning or just wanting to LARP some weird Andrew Tate red meat thing you heard online.

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>>2888873
here is evidence of my processing.

no one else in this thread is going to have proof for their weird fake independence meat larps.

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here is the red meat I referred to as a treat.
I don't freeze much of it. I like to dry most of it.

I genuinely prefer jerky over steak.

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more processing.

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>>2884079 (OP)
>how to be a self sufficient carnivore
Ethically, existing as a member of a functioning eco-system + applying permaculture design principals to the storage of water, nutrients and other resources on your property to promote abundance/fertility of perennial foods.

In practice, several acres with fish farms, food forests and annual gardens plus large livestock not necessarily for meat, but because they are part of a functioning system. Manure, pest control, etc. etc.

All of that depends on your biome/zone of course.

>picrel
my garden buddy. We don't eat meat but keep a pretty mean garden

>>2888874
I mean meh. Who wants to go grab a chicken scald it, gut, pluck why not raise a batch of 9-14lb real meat birds yearly do a 2 day processing event and have all the chicken parted, vacuum sealed and frozen? We do 40-50 birds every year. Use an electric plucker and two people. It takes us two days. We can do it in one but that a lot of chicken laying around in the kitchen.

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>>2888895
I cut the breast and legs out and throw the back and wings to my dog, cats, and then assorted wild life.

it takes less than 2 minutes. it takes longer to bleed them.
I'm living, I'm not filling the freezer. I let the birds exist till I need them. op talked as if he was looking for a natural lifestyle where you could sustain on meat.
I think it's a relatively bad idea to bulk freeze meat.

I will still claim you are all larping till you show evidence otherwise.

>>2888927
We use kill cones, yes I can part a chicken quickly under 3 minutes and thats boneless breasts. Vacuum sealing saves us tons of time and ensures we always have meat. We vacuum seal the backs and lamb bones and organ meat. I grind it and mix it for our dogs we have 4 and it cuts the feed cost by half.

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>>2888873
Red meat is the best.

I have 175 of these momma cows and keeping back more every year. I could eat steak breakfast, lunch, and dinner if I wanted to.

>>2888963
>kill cones
What are those?

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>>2888963
you got a single picture of anything that won't reverse image search?

I got a reverse for these animals, they die for me and keep my family fed. the idea of taking one prematurely just to put it in the freezer seems cruel in my world.

my chickens free range and supplemental food for 200 birds is probably 15$ a month overall once it's spread from just winter across the year. I get around 6-10 dozens of eggs a day even during winter.

the dog eats scraps with a supplemental food bowl that they refuse to eat. I buy one bag of dogfood a year cause I'm worried it might get moldy or gross even when stored safely in a brute trash can, but I could go off one 50lb bag for probably 2-3 years. they rarely even eat any of it.


end of the day, most people are demanding and want something for nothing. these birds ask nothing but freedom and I really respect that.

I always black swan them. when I slaughter I go out at 3am before their awake. I only ever take 1 or 2 st a time and sometimes I'm not sure if they even wake up.

it's the definition of a black swan event.


I'm a skeptical person. I'm not calling you a lair, I'm just saying I won't believe you till I see something that isn't saved from a image search.
this is 4xhan and let's me honest. 9/10 of racist apartment dwelling loser failson and fatherless faggots.


the second someone talks talking about the merits of red meat you can almost guarantee they are s larping lying fag.

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>>2888981
I mean most of the people who raise animals could.

after not eating red meat but once in a while, I notice that when I eat it. my throat feels oily, I get queezy, and I overall feel bad.

jerky doesn't do that for me.

no tineye return, id be interested in seeing more of your livestock and your infrastructure. I worked as a butcher for 12 years before I left society and the cheapest I ever seen someone able to slaughter a cow is with an engine hoist chain. this doesn't even dip into the space, time, effort, and water needed to support a large quantity of over consuming animals.

I can literally field dress a bird anywhere and be eating within 20 minutes with no need to store anything and no electrical need after the fact.
I spent around 4 or 5 years to come to the same conclusion our ancestors did anywhere in the world for the last forever.
nothing will ever best birds, they can take 1 units of feed and turn it into 3 units of food.
3 years of daily fold followed by 16-10lbs of meat.
self propagating.


it really is true, for ever unit of energy you put into a chicken, if send back 5 units.


175 exceeds your personal needs and turns into a business rather than you eating. I assume this is your livelihood. each their own, but now someone controls your water price, your feed price, and your animals are locked down on the land without thousands of dollars to drive them somewhere.

you need trailers, gates, hoists. you need a way to dispose of the scrap.

cows are just alot of trouble for little payout which is why it's considered such a luxurious thing.


a dozen eggs and I disappear forever with a new flock within 4 months anywhere in the world.


more pics plz.

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not gonna lie either.
a chicken is just flour away from being fried chicken.

everything I need to make friend chicken is on the bird aside from flour.
fat
meat
eggs

I grow potato's and make potato flour
again, 20x easier than grains.

I just think it's interesting that a chicken is basically just a self contained bucket meal.

>>2889038
Anon would you mind watching this talk?

>Dr. Anthony Chaffee - 'Plants are trying to kill you!'
https://youtube.com/watch?v=j1cqNDDG4aA [Embed]

I appreciate that the speaker is somewhat biased in being an advocate for carnivore dierts and I don't inherently agree with all of his points, however he does raise certain issues we must reconcile if eating plants.

>>2889049
*sorry I think I slightly misread your post your issue is purely with red meat?

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>>2889034
Sure my freezer stuffed after lambs and chicken processing.

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>>2889069
thanks.
you never know who is a 19 yr old Nazis larping his fantasy and who is actually doing it.

>>2884079 (OP)
>if you let only three goats give birth every three months
>controlling when goats get pregnant
retard way to go about it. only way to do it is either control their exposure or chemicals and the chemical way has a good chance of fucking up their heat cycle. better to just let them breed when ever and separate once you are sure theyve been bred.

A good breed of goat, and good lineage, will breed like crazy. Some breeds will only kid once a year. Spanish goats are good for two kiddings a year, and good chance (25% ime) of them throwing twins. To be comfortably sufficient, Id want a herd of 12, 10 breeder does and 2 bucks. Realistically, 6 does and 1 buck could do it. but that doesnt give you wiggle room if your buck gets nabbed by a coyote or kills himself during rut.

>>2884112
chicken is the least efficient feed:meat animal there is. a couple hens for eggs sure but purposefully raising chickens for meat is just shit. turkeys look worse on paper but in practice put a lot of meat in the freezer and are far less wasteful to feed.

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>>2889049
I reviewed a little of him and his credibility isnt there.
he's doing pseudo science.
>>our ancestors are nothing but meat
verifiably untrue.
what does he mean by ancestor? I can trace farming in my family back quite a ways.

he's using undefined words and letting you place the definition on them to help validate and justify what he is saying.

the people I know who have done the carnivore diet complete using red meat have a foul odor, the woman's pussy stink to where you can smell them through their clothes and they sweat 24/7.

this is coming from a guy who doesn't eat veggies honestly.
bread
potato
chicken
water
and if I ever go into town I always grab 2 of those ultra process buffalo chicken rollers at speedway.

I'm 40, my "figure" is attached.

this was built on breads.
chicken.
eggs.
and root veggies.
with the same evidence Anthony has, I believe a healthier diet is simple foods.
the potato over the potato chip.
chicken meat over chicken nuggets.

>>2884263
>Obviously that would be optimal but it's too costly in the beginning.
do not start off with your max number. trust me. figure out how many head you are going to keep and then get a handful of high quality does and a good buck to get started. breed up to your head count or buy some more later on. It is much easier to figure out the pitfalls of keeping goats when you got a handful of them versus when you got a whole herd. for instance you would much rather find out that your fencing was shit while you had 4 goats instead of when you had 15.

also, figure out how many your land can sustain and never ever go near that number or youll be looking for a bankruptcy lawyer when ever the next drought hits. You'll go poor real fast if you need to buy food for goats.

>too costly
I havent checked in a while but meat goats werent that much last time I looked. Search local the prices you see on internet listings are hot garbage (you absolutely do not need to get some pedigree'd quadruple testicled boers)

>>2884313
>w-why wont you goys starve your brain

>>2884369
>Goats are escape artists
if the fence is good they aint getting out. only thing is good fence aint cheap and installing it well is major fucking work. But if there is any weakness in the fence they will find it and exploit it.

>>2884430
I thought about raising meat guinea pigs but they were impossible to source when I was looking.

>>2884079 (OP)
Raising goats for meat is literally why Africa turned into a fucking desert. You're too stupid to be self sufficient.

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I see op is larping. he is dead set on red meat with literally no plan beyond "it should work".

he's uncomfortable with the idea and needs advice even if it works out 100% with no issues.
no disease.
no predation.
no birth defects
no accidents
controlled birth
and he is still unsure how to go about it with a perfect world.


if he ever got goats they would walk all over him and leave constantly with him bitching about how he hates these dumb animals as they proceed to outsmart him daily and break his windshield for fun.


>>2889348
what does this mean?
you source them by having a male and a female and then letting them fuck.
why would you do a hairy ass low meat tiny bone rat when there are other options?

>>2889338
I can raise cornish cross hens from chicks to 9-13lbs in less than 9 weeks. Chicken is a super efficient way to put meat on the table s long as you are choosing a true broiler breed. Feeding some dual purpose bird for 6 months it get 3lbs of meat is tarded

>>2889351
What should I raise instead?
>>2889354
I didn't reply to you so far but yes, I want red meat because it's the only food that can satiate me and in that case it will be even more important. I don't know why you're being so negative. That doesn't mean that chicken are not good, they just simply aren't in the long term.

>>2889341

anyone can make the realistic assessment that plants do not want to be eaten and will devise a plethora of chemical and physical means to prevent themselves being eaten.

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>>2889437
so for real. I'll stop being a dick for a second.

I'm being so negative because it's a fanciful idea based on the information you've given and the knowledge you've shown.

your just going to torture animals for a year before selling them to someone like me.

here's some key take aways of actual advice.

--Start with smaller, easier to work with animals and work your way up.

--the entire idea that red meat is the only thing that can satiate you is ridiculous. you never been hungry or read too much propaganda from the beef industry. liver king comes to mind. just do steroids.

--the cost of larger and mid range animals, like goats, often exceeds the value of the product you would otherwise get.
ie, your probably better off working at McDonald's and using there cash to buy meat.

--you need a safe quiet place for slaughter, you will have cops called ln you by yuppies for animal cruelty and depending on how you do it, they might be right.

--poultry is king around the world for a reason, if you want red meat, get duck, but theyre harder to process and require wax dips if you want the whole bird. poultry also provides eggs, which take it's to a magically area where you can get more than you put in.

--get comfortable with killing and you will make haunting mistakes. the first time I slaughter a goose I fucked up. it tried to jump away and I didn't break the neck on the swing, the blade hit the neck guide and just cut halfway through it. it was 3 minutes of a body spinning and jumping spraying blood all over me, the area, my face, as I held it down.

--you will be injured with larger animals.
your killing them, it's only natural to try to defend yourself.

--you need storage

--you need hangs for cleaning

--you need a butcher area.

--you need to deal with the leftover carcass. chickens are easy, dogs then bones and shit over the hill.
nature cleans them up faster than I can eat them. not so much when I do larger animals. you need a compost pit.

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>>2889588
--you need a means of protection from predation and you need plans for if it ever fails. a pack of coyotes could wipe out your food as you sleep.

--you need clean water sources.

--you need winter infrastructure.

--you hold a legal obligation to animals you raise and you need to be aware of your obligations even if you disagree with them.

--you need time, no more going out to drink or hanging out with friends, your running food bud.

--you need money, take whatever price you think it cost and triple it.


--you need basic biological medical knowledge for both the processing and for medical needs. it also provides you information on safe vs unsafe meat.

--make friends, you will need help someday with something. my neighbor has an excavator, he dips for me, I can't justify ever owning one

--if you store meat you need a backup power force for your freezers if it ever goes down.


I can't suggest strongly enough, to get away from the idea of has to be red meat.

aside from the poultry I eat deer, root veggies, and sometimes rabbits.


I'd suggest you start with rabbits and see how you feel and where it takes you.

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you get the general gist. I hate cellphones and I'm old. ignore the autocorrect mistakes and misspellings.

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also keep in mind the process of propagating goats is much more complicated and time consuming than leaving an egg to under a bird or too close to the oven.

I'm literally shuddering at the thought of a breaching goat at 3am.


i think it be wise to consider red meat a luxury food based on the conditions needed to provide it.

rabbit probably be easy enough to get away with that it be reasonable and you wouldn't need rich parents for a hobby farm.

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>>2889594
>I'm literally shuddering at the thought of a breaching goat at 3am.

>>2889588
I think you can't comprehend the fact that if you have to literally be self-sufficient means that you have no other food than that.

>>2884279
>It's almost lysekoist reasonming tier.
welcome to internet

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>>2889652
you didn't read a word I said.
op is asking about meat and goats.

you want me to talk about my root veggies and cistern?

>>2889631
thi

I let my guard down for a split second to give real bullet pointed advice and I just wasted my time on another larping faggot.

I guess if you could do it, you'd already be doing it.

he can't ship you to Iran fast enough.

>>2889778
>op is asking about meat and goats.
Yes, and how to be self-sufficient through them.

>>2884279
>It's almost lysekoist reasonming tier.
Lysenkoist
[fucking typos]

>>2884399
>very few people have even had meat lamb most eat dual purpose new Zealand wool sheep mutton

Plenty of the flock in NZ has meat rams put across them for terminal cross lambs with better yielding carcass. And there is expanding flock of wiltshire dorper cross kind of things, hair sheep, because the economics for wool aren't great. The works makes no differentiation between breeds only grades but there's a very clear difference between meat sold as lamb or as mutton. It's when the first two big teeth shoot out around 1 year of age that the meat can no longer be called lamb and they do check this. We make a further distinction where two tooth sheep is called hogget, any further teeth and it becomes mutton

>>2885102
>Im saying my lambs come in at 150lbs at 9-10 months

Those are some big fat lambs but surely, half of that is meat yield half is guts and skin and such. You aren't getting 150lb of meat from a lamb unless the thing weighed 300lbs which would be an absolute unit, some rams will get that big in adulthood though.

>>2889778
>he can't ship you to Iran fast enough.
I'm literally shuddering at the thought.

>>2889950
>half of that is meat yield half is guts and skin and such

I read back and see you did say as much in your numbers. But yeah, terminal cross. It's often done across commercial nz romneys merinos etc. Its not a bad idea too if you want to keep a dairy animal and not keeping many replacements but you want to eat the progeny and get better carcass from them. I've seen good lambs come from for example an east friesian dairy sheep crossed with a Suffolk. I don't know a hell of a lot about goat breeds but I'm sure there is some kind of equivalent you could do with a milking goat. You can do the same with a house cow too, breed it with an angus or hereford bull, and raise a good crossbred beast for the freezer. Semen straws don't cost a hell of a lot for just a handful of them, another option

>>2889346
Sheep are pretty good at this too especially where they are born and spend their young lives climbing through wires wherever they feel like it. The rest of their lives they will be looking for gaps they can fit through, because they know it's possible. Goats are next level cunts though that will climb over angle stays and such. At least where I live, you might as well raise sheep and find some feral goats to shoot. You make friends with the right guy with some farmland with goats on it, he might just let you go shoot as many as you like

>>2889338
What are you talking about? Chicken is pretty much the most efficient that there is other than insects and some fish.

>>2885141
>Rabbits
Calm down, Legosi.

>>2884558
>the rest you can do from grains and shit
You eat shit?

>>2889453
As well as that lots want to be eaten to spread their seeds in poop

why not a pig?

>>2890561
>As well as that lots want to be eaten to spread their seeds in poop

You can eat me and spread my seed in your poop...

>>2890650
Can't rely only on pasture.

>>2890685
>rely only on pasture
mud hut brain mentality
theres a reason 3/4 of livestock husbandry is securing superior feedstock. plus knowing when and what to feed and to finish an animal before slaughter
subsistence agriculture is a holistic thing. you dont just raise meat. you have to grow crops for feed as well
starved animals dont breed well or throw strong offspring. they suffer and die when it gets cold. it quickly becomes a devolving system if you dont put the effort in

>>2890695
This is not minecraft.

>>2890728
>minecraft
keep playing
your not even ready for the responsibility of a house cat yet

>>2890730
You didn't even read the very first post.

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this thread devolved into useless men shitposting pretty fast.

I'm literally shuddering.

how's feeding yourself going?

>>2884079 (OP)
>Is it really mathematically possible to be a self-sufficient carnivore?
Yes, but it as ever depends on the amount of land you have available.

Also how do you define self sufficient. Given that humans are a tribal species interdependent on each other for aid what matters more I think is the community you re part of..
Being self sufficient for what you can be self sufficient and trading for other things is about our best option.

>>2890751
Sadly that AI is not advanced enough to read below the title.

>>2884275
Professional athletes destroy their bodies for performance during competitions, you shouldn't look to them for health advice.

Rogan does it and has time to talk shit all day and run a comedy club.

>>2892034
How?

>>2889453
All this is solved when you realize that earth is your dominion and some plants/fruits are meant to be eaten.

>>2892092
mechanical elves

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Eat mor chikin

>>2884315
If you don’t eat fat your liver will make it from the raw components you get through your diet. This is an energy taxing process and protein while a good nutrient takes energy already to process.

>>2890561
that's what we in the business call "fruit".
fruit can be quite species specific and toxicto non target species

>>2884079 (OP)
>>2884218
>>2885230
Humans are not carnivores and you have to be beyond retarded to look at a naked human and think
>ah yes this is clearly an animal that survives by using its superior strength and sharp teeth and claws to kill and eat other animals
All felids have similar diets. All snakes have similar diets. All primates have similar diets. You are a primate. What do other primates eat?

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Can I has chesburrger?

>>2892632
isotope analysis disagrees with your naivete

humans were hyper carnivore for megafauna

>>2892647
And how many millions of years of evolution did your digestive system undergo before reaching that point? You could feed an orangutan a diet that's mostly meat and it would survive. It wouldn't thrive, it would develop various diseases, it would have a shortened lifespan - sort of like humans who eat a diet that's mostly meat.

Like many retards who have a surface level understanding of human history and evolution as it relates to nutrition, you think that because you can single out one point in our history where certain populations ate a very meat heavy diet, that somehow means that this is the optimal diet that should be emulated despite the fact that this period is bookended by much, much longer stretches of much, much lower meat consumption.

You already know what you want to eat and you're cherry picking data to support the diet you want rather than actually considering the evidence. Is a naked human or even a tribe of naked humans killing any "megafauna" with their bare hands? Of course not. Did humans spring into existence with the knowledge of advanced toolmaking and hunting techniques? Again, of course not. What do you suppose these human and pre-human hominids with long, delicate fingers and detailed color vision ate during those awkward millions of years before we ironed out the intricate details of crafting spears and bows and arrows?

How long do you think it takes your digestive system to adapt to a radically different diet? If we kept breeding those orangutans and feeding them nothing but meat, how long would it take to produce a truly carnivorous orangutan? If we tried breeding lions to be herbivores, do you think we would ever be successful?

>>2892652
how big is the orang's or any other of our great ape relatives gut?

>>2892659
You could spend 5 seconds googling that yourself, you know.

>Both humans and orangutans have a simple stomach, small intestine, small cecum, appendix, large intestine, rectum, and anal canal
>Humans have a higher proportion of gut volume in their small intestine, while orangutans and other apes have a higher proportion in their colon
>The bacterial colonies that populate the chimpanzee intestinal tract are mirror images of those found in the human gut

The difference in gut volume is relatively small, with humans having around 55% of total gut volume in the small intestine whereas apes tend to have around 45% in the colon. So there's a difference but it's relatively mild compared to the difference between humans and actual carnivores
>length of lion small intestine: 3-7 feet
>length of human small intestine: 12-22 feet
or herbivores
>human: single chambered stomach
>cow: four chambered stomach

What you should take away from this, and what a comparison of the human digestive system with those of our closest living relatives (orangutans, chimpanzees) is that you should be eating a typical primate diet (omnivorous frugivore) but with some of the more heavily fibrous parts of the typical chimpanzee or orangutan diet (leaves, bark) replaced with animal foods. There is flat out fucking zero reason or evidence to suggest that humans should be eating either of the retarded extremes shilled by people with eating disorders (carnivore or vegan diets).

>>2892662
outside of tropical regions how readily available is fruit?

>>2892670
Humans are tropical animals. Any region where fruit isn't in season year-round is not a natural human habitat. Again, you're assuming things based on technologies (clothing, shelter, controlled use of fire) that took literal millions of years to be developed. Tropical regions are the only places a naked human can survive and humans were naked for a very long time before we started making clothing.

Here's some more homework: compare the circulatory system of humans to that of animals that naturally live in cold regions. Why can a wolf comfortably stand in the snow while a human doing the same will quickly develop frostbite? Pay special attention to the positioning of arteries in the arms and legs. You may notice that animals that are adapted to cold environments have an adaptation that provides much more efficient heat transfer to the extremities.

>>2892685
>"Archaeological evidence does not overlook the fact that stone-age humans also consumed plants," adds Dr. Ben-Dor. "But according to the findings of this study plants only became a major component of the human diet toward the end of the era."

>>2892632
So you're telling me the way my body reacts to it is wrong and I should be eating in a way that's making really unhealthy?

>>2884219
fat is incredibly important and has been scientifically proven to be very important to hormone production (more testosterone in men, more estrogen + testosterone in women)
i dont recommend making some retarded diet where you only eat meat or only eat plants or eat no fat or eat all fat
your body has evolved to eat lots of different stuff and the best thing you can do is have a balancedish diet with none to minimal processed slop
its best not to try and optimize it too much anyway since there are probably plenty of other things you could be doing to optimize your health or whatever

>>2892688
see
>>2892652

Your quote is from an utterly trash meta analysis by a team of Jewish researchers at Tel Aviv University which grossly simplifies an extremely complex subject.

We know that many pre-human hominids ate a wide variety of foods. Australopithecus is thought to have eaten mainly fruit with the occasional addition of easily caught small animals. Jumping ahead a couple million years, Homo Habilis ate more (likely scavenged) meat but ate enough fruit that tooth fossils show erosion patterns consistent with regular exposure to acidity aka fruit. Homo Erectus comes along a bit later and is the one we think of when it comes to hunting megafauna to extinction but H. Erectus teeth show much heaver wear than the earlier Habilis, telling us that they were actually eating more tough plant foods than their predecessors even if they were also eating more meat.

Much later, Homo Sapiens arrives and rather than doubling down on meat, instead introduced cooked tubers:
>A key difference between the diets of Homo sapiens and our closest extinct relatives H. neanderthalensis is the ability to effectively digest cooked starches, with some evidence found linking cooked starch and a further increase in H. sapiens brain size.

Our ancestors had a pretty consistent diet until we left the tropical regions we arose in and spread to harsher environments that necessitated adaptive diets. Step back 10,000 years, which diet would you assume is more natural, the one eaten by humans living in equatorial Africa or the one being eaten by humans in Northwestern North America? Hominids are extremely good at adapting to different environments and this is a big part of why we've been so successful but don't mistake an adaptive diet for an optimal one.

You have long, slender fingers for picking fruit, not holding a spear. You should be eating meat but you are not and have never been a carnivore.

>>2892783
see
>>2892892
>You should be eating meat but you are not and have never been a carnivore.

You need to understand that your autism is making you want to see diet as this stark black or white choice between eating either nothing but plant foods or nothing but animal foods. Meat is good for you and you should be eating it but you're an omnivore, not a carnivore, and that means that meat should be a component of your diet rather than the primary focus.

Humans and our ancestors have had extreme diets at various times and places throughout history but those were driven by necessity, not preference. You can always ignore your biology and force yourself into a diet you're not adapted to and you can survive just fine doing this but you would be much healthier if you ate according to your biology.

Bears are a nice example of this. Virtually all bear species are omnivores, eating a variety of meat, fruit, honey, leaves, roots, etc etc. with two notable exceptions. Polar bears live in an extreme environment where there is very little to eat except meat and as such have adapted to a diet that is 90% meat. Pay attention to that number, "humans are carnivores!" people. Even the most extreme example of an ursid hypercarnivore only gets 90% of its calories from meat. Polar bears have still been observed to eat berries, moss, seaweed, etc.

At the other extreme we have panda bears who are carnivores, literally have the digestive system of a carnivore, and yet eat bamboo for 99% of their diet. They've adapted to this diet in various ways but it doesn't change the fact that they are literal carnivores and would likely do much better if they could somehow be convinced to start eating meat again.

If you were a bear, which diet would you do best on? The omnivorous diet that the vast majority of your family follows or the carnivore or vegan extremes picked by members living in extreme environments that leave them little choice?

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>>2892632
Our closest relatives, chimps, eat primarily meat and some fruit, and then plants/bugs when resources are scarce (ie they're poor)

Great argument fag

>>2892909
>Our closest relatives, chimps, eat primarily meat and some fruit
Why do you people lie about things that are so easily disproven?

Our closest relatives are chimpanzees
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee#Diet
>The chimpanzee is an omnivorous frugivore. It prefers fruit above all other food, but it also eats leaves, leaf buds, seeds, blossoms, stems, pith, bark, and resin. A study found that 64.5% of their feeding time concentrated on fruits. In addition, 19% of feeding time was spent on arboreal leaves. While the chimpanzee is mostly herbivorous, it does eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs, and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates.

and bonobos
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Diet
>The bonobo is an omnivorous frugivore; 57% of its diet is fruit, but this is supplemented with leaves, honey, eggs, meat from small vertebrates such as anomalures, flying squirrels and duikers, and invertebrates.

which, as you see, are both omnivorous frugivores which just so happens to be the diet I've been advocating. I don't know who told you that chimps eat mostly meat but you should really double check stuff like that before you start making a fool of yourself.

So I found this study which concluded that human ancestors spent 2 million years being primarily carnivorous with only a shift to partial plant consumption technologies 40-100,000 years ago

>>2892895
So once again, you want me to be unhealthy? I have no problem eating fruits occasionally but you're completely retarded. Humans have high acidity exactly because they consume a lot of meat.

>>2884079 (OP)
If you only want meat, chickens and rabbits are the easiest. They'll mostly feed themselves if you have a healthy yard for them, and growing some grains to feed them is pretty easy. Anything grown for them doesn't really need processed like it would for human consumption. I grow a mix of corn, barley, and millet for them. They'll eat grass clippings, and most compostable kitchen waste.

>>2892998
This is why there's no point trying to explain a nuanced topic to autists. You're genetically incapable of understanding anything other than the starkest black or white position. This is why you keep bouncing from one extreme fad diet to another.

>Humans have high acidity exactly because they consume a lot of meat.
This is a theory, one of many, and the theory is specifically that humans developed a stronger stomach acidity than other primates (though still much less than actual carnivores) due to being scavengers, not due to "consuming a lot of meat". The theory you're referring to posits that humans developed a more acidic stomach for the same reason carrion birds did. Do you eat a lot of roadkill?

The period where this adaptation would have taken place was during the existence of Homo Habilis (2.4-1.4 mya) which is thought to have been the first scavenging hominid and the first to start eating significantly more meat but unfortunately for you, we already covered this topic:
>>2892892
>Homo Habilis ate more (likely scavenged) meat but ate enough fruit that tooth fossils show erosion patterns consistent with regular exposure to acidity aka fruit.
Habilis ate more meat than Australopithecus but still relied very heavily on fruit, since they were less than 4 feet tall and hopelessly outmatched by pretty much every predator that existed at the time.

I'll also direct you to
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
You don't know nearly as much about this topic as you think you do.

>>2893004
>Do you eat a lot of roadkill?
Not that anon, but yes. Just in the past month I've gotten 3 squirrels, a rat, a deer, a goose, and two foxes. That's like $1000 of meat saved off my food bill.

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>>2892642
>Om nom nom nom...

>>2893004
Do tell which animals raise artificial plants for consumption and how edible their wild versions are.

>>2893041
ants?

>>2893004
>This is a theory, one of many, and the theory is specifically that humans developed a stronger stomach acidity than other primates (though still much less than actual carnivores) due to being scavengers, not due to "consuming a lot of meat". The theory you're referring to posits that humans developed a more acidic stomach for the same reason carrion birds did. Do you eat a lot of roadkill?
human ph goes down to fucking 1.5
this is scavenger tier, perrsonally I prefer the theory that human ancestors relied on a big kill to keep them going for a week and adapted the low ph to handle the bacterial load.
also using rocks to smash skulls open to access the brains that nothing else could touch, coincidentally this would provide crossover to develop into using the shards as edged tools like knives or spears

>>2884079 (OP)
>let only three goats give birth every three months
Goats only give birth is spring.

>>2884322
You need to go back.

>>2888873
>I literally free range about 200 chickens
Where do you live? Where I live in south QC, the coyotes, foxes, skunks etc would eat them all in the first month.

bump

>>2893107
We also free range chickens. During the day they do what ever. At night they come back to inside the livestock fencing to sleep with the livestock dogs. Lost several over the years but we are to the point stuff needs to be refreshed because these bitches are getting old and lazy with the egg laying. Refresh next year with 50-70 new chicks.

bump

>>2893004
Why is it that people with this “cite your source” bitchy attitude bring up dunning kruger like its checkmate. You know the other side of it is that the expert (you) is more unsure about their knowledge, maybe you’re still on the left side of the curve.

I just ate a sleeve of keebler cookies and feel irritable, but my theory is that humans will adapt and overcome these dietary challenges

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>>2884079 (OP)
>a year since we are assuming you slaughter

there's your problem, you assumed incorrect. All you need is a heard of about 10 cows and a carpenter's straight draw shave debarking tool.

Each day, you use it to slice off a small section of the cow's flesh. Enough to eat for one day, but not so much that you'll end up killing the cow.

The next day, you repeat this process until you eventually start over at the first cow. Shave off more meat but from a different spot, and continue as before.

By the time you've used up all the "meat spots" on each cow, the first spot has healed, and you can begin the whole process over again. forever.

Ota basically free meat without having to kill. ive yet to hear how this is a bad idea

>>2897465
Thank chatgpt that sounds like a great plan

>>2897465
So that's like the blood warriors that pierce cows to drink their blood while keeping them alive on a new level.

We are half way through our spring lambing and we are at 13. We will raise 2 rams, band them and when the time comes process them. Ewes will be brought into the flock and remaining rams sold off.

>>2897504
>process them
butcher them, you mean butcher them, I don't understand why people try to call it process, it's such an empty word despite their being readily available words easily available for millenia, It's like they're trying to distance themself from the act for some bizarre reason?

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>>2897657
process is the inclusive steps of harvest
butchers dont typically kill/slaughter/gut/skin. their job starts from a chilled hanging carcass
curing/pickling/smoking are also separate entities from cut and wrap
get off the internet and go touch a gut pile

>>2884219
your brain is literally made of fat.

>>2897720
What does that mean in relation to consuming fat as an adult? Not one thing.

>>2897668
>process is the inclusive steps of harvest
No, you picked out two ram lambs to raise and slaughter for meat.

Process could mean potentially anything.
I had to read your post three times because I thought you meant something like having them assessed for breeding fitness. eventually I deciphered it well enough to figure out you meant castration band instead of id band and that process meant slaughter for the freezer instead of putting through the process of breeding assessment.


Anyway what breeds are you using and why are you choosing to buy in ewes instead of expanding from ewe lambs?

>>2884079 (OP)
Start with aquaponics and breeding chickens.
Thats the low hanging fruit.
If you cant handle a chicken your goats are defs going to die.

>>2885230
The mongols ate vegetables too if they could find them and traded for rice and flour occasionally too. It's also much easier to manage livestock in a group than as one person.

>>2884589
>1 chicken a day
Are you retarded or just trolling? One person does not need one chicken a day.

>>2897829
We are not bringing in ewes, we are holding all of our ewe lambs back for ourselves. We raise Dorper/Katahdin sheep and cornish cross chickens. and a shit ton of egg layers.