What are your thoughts on the following article?https://wordsandbuttons.online/the_real_cpp_killers.html
Zig can inline C++, C, and Assembly.
>>101579718Beef is the only valid C++ killerDlang could also quality
>>101579744Ye but zig has memory aliasing problems lol.>>101579762Clearly didn't read the article. Same for >>101579744 but whatever.
>>101579718C
>>101579718I don't see how any of the three alternatives suggested will replace C++, at least in its entirety. Maybe for HPC you could use those three, but what about desktop applications or business logic which isn't just algorithmic efficiency but also about maintainable, structured code? I just can't imagine writing a game engine in numba or whatever.
+1 for Zig
>>101579847Most desktop applications don't need C++ unless they are doing HPC. Numba should be compatible with python libraries too (not sure, since I don't code much on python, I do mostly C myself).
Java killed C++ 20 years ago and everything since has been one big cope>Minecraft autists are playing the game with giga-shaderpacks that graphically beat out any AAA game you could come up withThere's no excuses anymore
rust is the best
>>101579907the language choice isn't what made java edition superior.
>>101580019>compiled bytecode is easily accessible, decompilable, and moddable, making the game extremely easy to mod despite Mojang's attempts to obsfucate the bytecode before they gave upBack in the day, you had to mod the game by directly opening up the JAR and editing the files. Only Java made that possible and without Java there wouldn't be the shaders that beat out AAA games in graphics (and sometimes even performance).It was absolutely only because of Java, the C++ version is a complete joke because of this and is filled with microtransactions for kids and people too stupid to know better
>>101579907You sunk time into a crappy language time to move on.
>>101580051okay hipster boy go learn the next memelang im sure itll finally take off and displace what have been industry standards for decades
>>101580050Lmao AAA games coded in Java, can you imagine?
>>101579718This is the problem of the new c++ killers you just have way less control and more training wheels. Like none of these so called languages make it easier to write clean and effective code. They just give you less control. I’m talking more about rust. I haven’t looked too much into zig that’s more of a c replacement.
>>101580072Minecraft is an AAA title.
>>101580092It's as AAA as Angry Birds desu. I mean games for adults (lol but seriously).
>>101580137>>101580092>>101580076>>101580072>>101580065>>101580051>>101580019Please to not feed up retards. Let them be alone. Keep discussing the topic on hand.
>>101580076They literally do, most of the languages are higher level because it is the only way to keep the code portable and performant at the same time.The lower you go either:a) your code is less portable because it targets a specific hardware orb) it is less performant because it has to restrict to a generic solution that works all the computers.Saying that you can write clean code on python or in a more abstract assembly is retarded. It should even easier to write simpler code in python than it would be on C (less code) and both C++ and Rust (those have complex semantics, especially C++ which has some weird edge cases).
>>101580137Not an AAA title, but higher quality than one anyway. All JavaTM.
>>101580327that works in all*Saying that you can't write*
>>101580076>"make c++ less retarded">ok we'll amputate some tumors here.... and there....>"NO WTF put those back i need them"
>>101580092>Minecraft is an AAA title.AAA title. Hahah, AAA title he says. It is not. Just because a game got popular, doesn't mean it's AAA class.And the Java version also runs like absolute dog shit.
>>101580065Java is still relevant?
>>101579718C++ is only going to get more popular I'm afraid, nice try tho.
>>101580491>And the Java version also runs like absolute dog shit.Sorry you still have an integrated GPU.>>10158052490% of the internet runs on java. All big data processing is handled by frameworks like Apache Hadoop and Spark are built with Java. The majority of Apache projects are Java, and every big company and almost all backends are powered by Java. Java is the Atlas holding up the world and you're a bird dropping turds on his shoulder.
>>101580573Web browsing is literally the most basic computer task in existence. You can literally browse the web on some modern microwave ovens.
>>101580611>You can literally browse the web on some modern microwave ovens.....with Java. thanks for proving my point
>>101580573>Sorry you still have an integrated GPU.The original was doing software rendering you fucking dunce.
>>101580616What do you mean? It's not up for serious tasks, it's for getting granny to see a cute cat photo on Reddit on her tamagotchi watch. It's a failed language outside of baby tier use cases.
>>101580651>software rendering is bad because uhhh i said so okay?????? it doesnt matter of hundreds of thousands of people have nostalgic sentiments for how the game looked back then its bad because i just said so!Oldschool Runescape was using software rendering too, sped. Millions more have gotten value from that game than whatever gay shit you do
>>101580669Yeah exactly it's for actual baby stuff like Runescape and Habbo Hotel. You don't think so?
>>101580665>Alexa google Big data>Alexa google what do companies use to process big data>Alexa what powers Facebook and Google and Twitter and also Apple>Alexa what does Android use as its programming language>Alexa what is the Apache Common Library>Alexa what happens every time I do a google search (answer: it uses Java)Sorry you have some meme job and you aren't building the infrastructure the web relies on
>>101580696Yeah exactly, baby stuff. As in, it's not serving you ray traced AAA graphics, it's serving you a mobile phone screen and search engine page.
>>101580076>you just have way less controlThat's one of the selling points of Zig. You should check it out.
>>101580669Lol, you sound rather angry there, chief. And all that nostalgia shit - irrelevant. None of this changes the fact that Java version of the game fundamentally ran like dogshit compared to the C++ version.
I forgot:>Alexa what powers Netflix>Alexa what is spring boot and why do most companies that arent js/ruby/python shops use it>>101580717>As in, it's not serving you ray traced AAA graphics>my baby toys are better than YOUR baby toys!I was going to post a vid of minecraft with raytracing but you're so retarded it would be an ineffective point. You wouldn't even be able to use the internet right now if it wasn't for Java and yet you don't even grasp how important it is.>>101580727Again - Sorry you still have an iGPU. I got a real computer when I was 14, maybe you have a birthday coming up and can ask for a better PC? IDK what so say, except for the fact that I do, and it's because minecraft is single-threaded, not because of java, but because they're too lazy to fix itSo again, you're an uneducated retard. Go write more C++ templates and maybe you'll feel good about yourself
>>101580773>Again - Sorry you still have an iGPU. I got a real computer when I was 14, maybe you have a birthday coming up and can ask for a better PC? IDK what so say, except for the fact that I do, and it's because minecraft is single-threaded, not because of java, but because they're too lazy to fix it>So again, you're an uneducated retard. Go write more C++ templates and maybe you'll feel good about yourselfi hate nocoder zoomers so much
>>101580773That's what I already said about Minecraft... it's a little kid's game that looks like a browser game... It isn't a serious title with raytraced AAA graphics... And it needs a supercomputer to properly run it at high graphics, despite looking like... well... like that...
>>101580823>my baby toys are better than YOUR baby toys!Your basedslop cyberpunk 2077 shit is actively damaging the human race, while minecraft is a creative game for kids. Are you really trying to argue superiority here. Java can run Quake and if you need anything more intense you're a faggot.
>>101580852But why though? Why is "GTA VI will be coded in Java!" never words you will hear? Why is it solely used for baby games and serving up cat videos to the elderly?
>>101579718GPU code was only C++ for a short time between dx7 and dx9 after which it moved almost exclusively to shader languages with some context binding code in a variety of languages math code has practically never been targeted to c++ until the algorithm was understood well enough to write it efficiently and integrate into a real world task. most math code these days is done in some version of Matlab or R and only ported once the nerds have made an absolute mess of things.his comment about assembly languages is insane and boring. there are dozens of bytecode vm formats out there with macro assemblers for each of them; java, python, llvm, spirv, just to name a few popular ones.c++ isn't dead, it isn't dying, and it isn't slowing down. despite the many tales of its death, new programmers are readily entering the fields that c++ owns because c++ code is fun and c++ programs do cool things. sure maybe in 50 years when robotics or microcontroller firmware is as normal a task as centering a label on a webpage we'll see some new higher level languages associated with left wheel 50% forward, but things where you need both precise control and high level concepts will continue to be c++ for another 50 years at least.I'm honestly amused at all the many words written about a language that "nobody uses".
>>101580879This is equally as retarded as a question as asking "why won't Google/Netflix rewrite their entire backends with Python? why?"IDRC about your embedded self-masturbatory wankery. No, you couldn't make gta v or rdr 2 in java. However, you could make something equally as good and equally impressive by simply deciding to not think that expensive graphical embellishes are the most important thing in the world, and to simply be minimalist with graphics. Do you want to know why Minecraft is the no.1 selling game in the world? That's why. Notch wasn't trying to make Minecraft a serious game with ray-tracing, dynamic terrain deformation, sunspace ambient occlusion, etc. He took a tool he knew and tried to make good something out of it.This is why Java killed C++. You are admitting, maybe not to yourself, but to everyone who is listening, right now, that you are going to be obsolete. You write legacy software. The only reason C++ is used is because it just "happens to be" the most well-supported language for writing high-intensity computational graphical programs, such as AAA goyslop. As soon as hardware progresses to the point where that type of efficiency simply isn't needed, your language will disappear. It will be viewed as similarly archaic as most people view assembly today. It's already happening. Unity, Godot, etc, and C# have been rapidly overtaking your marketshare for over a decade now. You will be hard-pressed to find a single successful indie developer working with C++ over C# is. Do you know what C# is? It's just Microsoft Java. Face it. Admit your present and your future. You're going to be extinct.There's no excuses anymore.
>>101580355based starsector
>>101580953>As soon as hardware progresses to the point where that type of efficiency simply isn't neededthis will never be the casenot just games, but most performance critical software has to give up features or precision or computational complexity because the hardware and algorithms simply aren't fast enough. the moment "hardware progresses" is the moment high performance programs can do more complex computations, once again eliminating the ability for slow languages to catch up.
>>101580915shader languages are C++. in the case of CUDA and Metal this is 100% accurate, the shading language is C++ with a few minor extensions. even glsl and hlsl are mostly C++.
>>101581049No, software complexity is not going to increase forever, retard. We already hit the limit of where we should have stopped needlessly wasting time with graphics tech almost 10 years ago, and by now Java is fast enough to run most of what was written with C++ then.By the way, I hear that modern AAA games aren't even caring about how well their game performs and are just relying on gay upscaling tricks to do the work for them, so your point doesn't even really hold up in the industry as it stands right now. They're plenty happy to make their software sluggy and unperformant on the hardware because it can just fixed later. Why not just go ahead and force them to use Java or Microsoft Java, where their issues will be fixed simply by hardware advancement instead of shitty upscaling/filtering "technology"?Answer this desu
>>101580915The article doesn't mention C++ being dying. As matter of fact, it says it will never die.Not all GPU code isn't rendering code. A lot, if not most used currently, is writing CUDA or OpenCL, which, if I am not mistaken, their usual APIs is using extensions over C++.
>>101581083fair, I consider them more DSL languages though, since most of the syntax wouldn't typically compile without significant modification>>101581099software complexity will increase to fill the limit of hardware performance forever. who cares about games, I've personally got at least 5 different production robotics algorithms that make massive tradeoffs to be performant because hardware isn't fast enough and there's not enough memory to store all the necessary data I have to process.
>>101580953>No, you couldn't make gta v or rdr 2 in java. However.So it's crap and not up to adult tasks... Just for making Roblox and 2D retro style games, which is what you already knew.
>>101579718Good article. It drives home how clever engineering and tools can beat raw C/C++/Rust style performance obsession without making an effort.Personally I think Rust is step backward. It tries to keep the sometimes false promises of C but making everything more complex and forcing the programmer into some sort of BDSM relationship with the compiler.
>>101581143C++ is a niche programming language for relatively uncommon applications that just happen to need the very specific performance it can give (in certain circumstances).Yes, I agree with you too
>>101581134I agree focusing exclusively on fowardcom was a bit insane. However, I understand why it would so so:1) LLVM is what already what everyone uses and the LLVM IR is not comfortable to handwrite.2) You can't write bytecode manually (sure, there could be a textual representation of it), but most bytecodes solutions aren't just JITs..
>>101581154>just for making actually good gamesI also agree with you, friend!Roblox uses C++, btw. Mixed with Lua.
>>101581178>uncommon applicationsevery single time you use a computer you interact with c++ code
>>101581210>kernel>operating system>browser engine (the same ones that search the web with java)>like a pdf viewer (ahhh yes very mission critical)Like 0.5% of devs work in these fields. Nobody is writing their own kernels and OS unless they think its a divine temple
>>101581241so then why all the noise about a language nobody uses?
>>101581285>but.... why are you here? ponder this.Nice try but im a stoner so your mindtricks have no power over me
>>101579718this does not address the c++ issues people commonly face. In fact it just shows project that have novel ideas though I am quite sure there are a bunch of numba clones that work better for all kinds of platform not just cuda. Even nvidia has 2 or 4 taichi clones which is quite funny. Spiral sounds interesting I think however its more of a compiler problem not language problem.
>>101580953Omg this dude.
>>101581375What other numba clones are you aware?
>>101579718The article had an interesting premise, in that what we need is FASTER software with more control and not more abstractions.It completely lost me though when the three languages it brings up are an academic wank language, "python but fast", and a shallow wrapper around ASM.Software isn't slow because there's an redundant instruction in a hot loop, its slow because we have mountains of abstractions everywhere, which is VERY encouraged in most C++ codebases. What C++ should be is more like C. The biggest problem in software developement is unnecessary complexity and useless dogma that encourages abstracting everywhere and everything for any reason.
>>101581485taichi, weave, triton and there are some others. python dsl + jit for gpu is quite common. Nothing works as well as cuda of course if you want top of the line performance but those are more than enough for prototyping and sometimes deployment as well. I guess torch or jax count as well? I don't know much about the whole ecosystem only a little about the gpu part. Not sure which one was first but I remember some drama by the taichi dev accusing one nvidia team of missing attribution or something like that. I am quite sure if you investigate the "minds" behind all these jit frameworks its some chink or slav. Anyway I don't think the problem with c++ is speed the article misses the point of rust and co.
>>101581588>What C++ should be is more like Ci try to do this in my codebase, but it's a little more than that.C++ should be written like C but with custom algebras, that's where it shines.if we threw away all OOP design principles and only kept composition and polymorphism, I think we'd reach a golden age of software design
premature optimization <- academics seem to stepped on themselves with iti can do that too, C++ killer is - Assembly language, write pure binary codes and then decide dynamically which branch to run, spending years on puny projectsnah. im clicking those links, i cant even see how #1 candidate looks like..can those academics just simplify existsing build systems? ima been critic of sir Hoare but he at least understood and said that any supersede idea is doomedregarding those Rust/Zig/Stuff author expressed useful thought, the same base they have and only compete in the simplicity of the build
>>101579718anyone who publishes an article on the internet but doesn't add a date/time should be lined up against a wall and shot
>>101582651okay, i finished reading. #3 is assembly. author should ask himself why building and build tools exists.yes, assembly bzzzt compiled, very good, very simple and maybe very optimized (again, how would it be auto-optimized for different platforms)build exists because of dependencies. C++ exists because C needed string and C exists because those macros were useful in assembly.. and todo anything useful have to depend on OS api and other libs, performance goes 3rd or much later wagon
>>101579820>Clearly didn't read the article. Same for >>101579744 but whatever.It's 4chan, you seriously expect me to read through an article ?... Anyways, beef it is.
>>101582891He's Ukrainian. Putin will take care of it.
