A lot of programmers are mediocre because they don’t treat programming like the hobby it is : the art of creative problem solving.Programming and electrical engineering are actually not that different. But DIY hacker culture is dead in programming because it got over-saturated with normies who think they will get a nice paycheck.I hear "programmers" say things that always surprise me. They will say "I have this problem, I wish there was a software to solve this".How about you write that fucking software?I can understand when it’s a complex problem but sometimes they say that for the most trivial of things that they could easily solve with a script written in 15 minutes.Programming, software development, is an art. It’s creative problem-solving. How can you be good at creative problem-solving when you constantly ignore opportunities to apply creative problem-solving and wait for someone else to solve your problems?You ask novice programmers what they have made and often, it’s very little.And I’m always surprised. When I was young I would write Python/Lua scripts to automate literally thousands of things. Just because I needed it. I didn’t wait for someone else to make a software or script for me. Back then script kids relied on shit languages like BASIC/Visual Basics, but they were still much more creative and DIY than current generations.Young programmers have no DIY attitude. They only start to work on personal projects when they realize they need a job. This is why they are for the most part, mediocre. A real programmer should organically have a lot of ongoing projects at once and many many little handy scripts. Not because they need an internship, but because they identified problems they needed to solve.Identifying problems by itself is also a skill.Musicians practice music hundreds of times to get good. Composers compose thousands of songs. Painters paint a lot.Programming is no different.
>>102459094most people learn programming at school instead of as a task-solving endeavour, hence their minds morph into submission or a client mentality, seeing things outside their sphere as hard or impossible, whereas a techgod in the making doesn't know what is possible or not and isn't conditioned.
>>102459094>Programming, software development, is an art.this is the difference in people who play music for fun or do it as a "job" and were formally trained. If they are formally trained they aren't creative. They generally only read sheet music, and do covers of songs. They have no ability to create their own music. Yes there are exceptions but in the countless jam sessions I have had, the only ones that can jam are usually the least trained.
>>102459346Meanwhile...
>>102459346continued... Additionally people who can jam, cant jam with everyone no matter how talented. Tons of examples of famous musicians that just couldnt play together. The ability to have a formal set of training and understanding allows greater cooperation among people. This also creates boring predictable shit. Any programmer that made their own shit and didnt adhere to muh rules cant be hired to work in a corp. See Minecraft. I'd say 80% of the time the thing you enjoy shouldn't be a job, you will soon not enjoy it anymore. If you love solving business solutions for their bullshit needs that have no technical merit... I don't know what form of tranny autism that is, but its making more since why these programmers are trooning out.
>>102459426>Meanwhile...using Ray Bradbury, The Veldt tech to copy paste and auto generate art is not a counter argument. kys
hacker culture died with the proliferation of FOSS
>>102459094>the art of creative problem solvingThis is why I got into computers in the first place. Nothing beats the joy of finally figuring out how something works completely by yourself.
>>102459094I didnt even get a computer till my late teens
>>102459346> If they are formally trained they aren't creative.so the entire history of Western art music, from plainchant to Palestrina to Bach to Beethoven to Brahms to Debussy, a millennia of development and refinement, which was all composed by people who had formal musical training but they weren't creative? Stravinsky wasn't creative?
>>102459602how
The demoscene exists just for this. Go check pouet if you want to talk with creative people.
>>102459901I grew up poor
>>102459094I've thought about creating a USB device for niche use-case but I have no idea where to even begin with prototyping something like that.Like it's possible to be done just in software, you'd have to have some kind of physical programming on the board.Or maybe I am just retarded and it is actually possible.
>>102459094It won't get better, man. I don't want to spread pessimism and lethargy, but I don't think you can revive hacker culture. The people at Berkley and MIT, who gave birth to this culture are either dead or have so little influence to the scene, that they are practically dead. I don't think all Millennials and Gen Z are a lost cause, but most of them don't have the same spirit. It was not only a mindset of DIY, but also against unjustified authorities, centralization, doing the same work over and over again, copyright and in favor of freedom of information and KISS solutions for problems. Of course it's not only an attitude towards computers and society, but also the will to work hard and learn day and night, just to get things done or learned, that you're interested in. I don't know if it's nature or nurture, but there is something most, even the more sophisticated, computer programmers lack these days and I doubt you can just revive it, even you tried really hard. On a side note: Imageboards were spawned by the same culture and built on the same principals and look where we are now. Stallman was right about this, being kicking dead whales off the beach.
>>102459094There is nothing more boring than a reductionist midwit repeating the same tired old shit on 4chinz again and again.We had a couple guys like you recruited recently with that shit know-it-all attitude. One quit, the other started throwing tantrums in meetings when he couldn't grasp the existing codebase. He sort of mellowed out recently though.Any worthwhile software engineering is gonna involve diving into some big legacy codebase, be it the Linux kernel, LLVM, etc.You don't have the luxury of "writing everything from scratch" while everybody is waiting for you to catch up. You have to be able to understand complex systems written by someone else. Or you can GTFO.
>>102459556FOSS was hacker culture in the first place
>>102459094Won't ever happen, hacker culture is permanently dead.Most programmers are in it for the money. Easily >90%. Every single programmer I meet these days has no emotional attachment to their job, their tools, or their craft as a whole. They work whichever language the boss chooses, because the boss chose it, and nothing else. If they were to have a software idea, they wouldn't even be able to execute it. Just like gentleman science, hacker computing was killed by normie suffocation. And I honestly don't see a solution, except maybe a gigantic crash where everyone gets fired and only the hobbyists keep their programming habits.
>>102459889you listed composers, that is a completely different thing, than one virtuoso trying to play with another. Those 2 would also likely just read the music of a composer. Hand those composer fags an instrument and tell them to just play...
Where is this "hacker culture" at? All non-normie websites/platforms/online communities like mastadon/alt tech are either leftish troons or chuds. Theres no middle ground anymore
>>102461017People have to learn to differentiate their hobbies from their jobs. Simple as that. Idiots always try to merge the two and quickly learn that a job needs to be profitable, and have a reason. A hobby is for personal enrichment."Hackers" are alive in the demoscene, single board computing, and open source community. If you cant find it, its because you are considered a fucking normie who can't research or dig or needs their ass wiped for them.BBS/ Telnet/ usenet/ shit like that exists still, but if you are addicted to coming here, redit, telegram, or any other familiar place of poison and controlled opposition, you get what you deserve. If you have the curiosity and caution to seek that shit out, you win and find a tiny crack where you can view freedom from within our prison planet.
>>102459094People are too mentally ill because of weird shit that they are exposed throughout their lives.
>>102459094A lot of devs treat the software that the end user touches like a black box solved problem, so they see no point in trying new things or coming at it at a new angle, which is why Friendsterr is the most popular social network, web development is primarily done with Adobe Dreamweaver, and >>102457217 people are indifferent to logo changes
>>102459376that's what /cumg/ was before it got banned
>>102461496>over 90% of devs are in it for the money>"If you cant find it, its because you are considered a fucking normie who can't research"You're not addressing the point I made, you're just being a little faggot with random insults. And reddit spacing.Please, go back.
>>102459094for that we need to revive 4chan. This place is fully automated kek
>>102459094Art isn't important, it's just catering to people's opinions, which are always wrong unless they're mine, in which case they're facts
>>102459094What is even hacker culture? Using Emacs or something? Fuck off.
>>102462346It's a shit-tier wannabe general centered around lust-inducing images, nanobot trooning and attentionwhoring bc "muh pursucushun"
>>102464071It's being willing to build tools to solve your problems rather than expecting to be spoonfedthose old fucks hacking on PDP-10s and VAXen of course had to make all their own tools and systems; modern "developers" would never survive in that environment
>>102462019Thats two people you are complaining to. I'm "do research guy" and you are so thin skinned that you took a comment about people being unable to do research as a natural filter, worded crassly as a personal insult. You called someone random on an anon ib.Reddit spacing has existed since the days of BBS.You should gas yourself.and die.alone.or!There is hope!You can return to normalcy!And realize the internet will not cater to you!You can then grow as a human! You can do this!or you can just remain static.You can be miserable.You can be an ass.You can fuck off.You twat.Even then.You are Loved.Because you are human.Because as a human you have Value.That value is that you can grow and adapt.Its something very amazing.Don't waste it, anon.Goodbye.and nothing can stop,the slamjam.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1UuEHmxG0U-----Don't waste time being so serious. It's pointless in this arena.
>>102464761This
>>102461475>Where is this "hacker culture" at?Pockets remain, specially in old school stuff and also /ham/, where phreaking and the micro revolution started. Woz made blue boxes.
>>102459094Finally, a fucking based thread.
nah, you can be paid for the project but making a dive into a "sturdier base" or something even slightly related to it.i think this is the most reliable way of completing side projects. for example nginx is made like that, author had other responsibility, other than writing web server.more so, historically, there are examples where side projects survived better because they were one man made
>>102459094>Programming and electrical engineering are actually not that different. But DIY hacker culture is dead in programming because it got over-saturated with normies who think they will get a nice paycheck.That is just part of the problem. Management didn't want to pay premium for old school programmers who considered this somewhere between art and science. Instead, management and HR wanted fungible pieces that could be paid less and better yet, outsourced.
>>102459094>programming is an arttrvthnuke
>>102460608>Breadboard>Strip old usb cable and use it to interface breadboard to PCNow you can try a bunch of different chips and hardware. I'd start with taking apart a currently working USB device and getting the components working on your breadboard. You'll need some kind of chip controller. I really don't mess with hardware too much.
I want to quit my job. It's non essential and consumes my soul. OP is right, programming nowadays is considered jeet enterprise. I started my career a bit early (19 y.o.) and six years later the only thing that comes to mind is how good it would feel to just quit, study and program for a solid year, not as a corpocuck necessity, but as a healthy outlet that leads to exponential learning.I hate webdev and fintech. I just want to sit down and study math again, then go through the basics and dive deeper into programming itself. I've wanted to sit down and prepare myself for SICP, TAOCP, CLRS and properly expand on the little I know. I don't want to be stuck working on rushed abandonware startup software predating me for decades, I just want to perfect the basics and solve problems.
I only read this as>Waaah! I can't get a job writing trivial hobby projects in C! T-The industry is fucked! Millions must die!
>>102472171>Waaah! I can't get a job writing trivial hobby projects in LISP*! T-The industry is fucked! Billions must die!This, but unironically
>>102459094I was just thinking about this the other day. I think a large part of the problem is the corporatization of the internet, though I cant really put it into words...or maybe its just a cope. We need a new hacker manifesto (and i'll make the logo)
but the emac guy told me that hacker culture is bad though...
>>102459094Perhaps the closest you can still get to this, is DSP assembly programming in RF systems.
>>102472171>Waaah! I can't get a job writing trivial hobby projects in C! T-The industry is fucked! Millions must die!Yes.
>>102472171The irony of your post lies in the fact that the truly trivial dull boring shit is done in work life.
i am trying to revive hacker culture but /g/ doesn't care about hacker culture they'd rather have a six figure FAGMAN career.
>>102474713You will find some of it over in >>>/g/cyb and also >>>/diy/hamAlso see >>102469206
all the low hanging fruit has been taken, i wrote out my own implementation of galois field multiplication for AES and compared it to the elegant solution provided by the actual AES library, it was like comparing dogshit to tiramisu, jensen is fairly accurate about the future of coding (beyond niche stuff like OS scripting etc)
bro we got castrated at an early age with your "don't touch that you are going to break it", you don't know what you are doing !" even college felt like some sort of castration with ; things are done this way not the other, I got to enjoy labs fucking around with electronics here and there but, it also feels that its filled with people that only want to get shit working ASAP, or that won't share shit because I am some sort of le genius and the rest of you get fucked. can't build a community around that
>>102474713>implying anyone in /g/ is old enough to remember hacker culture as it were
>ChatGPT, write a script to solve this problem for me
>>102459094>A lot of programmers are mediocre because they don’t treat programming like the hobby it is : the art of creative problem solving.Strong agree.>I would write Python/Lua scripts to automate literally thousands of thingsI do this all the times, I was working on a script today actually.
You write your DIY code kept up by duct tape, I will use AI to brute force all my code.
>>102461475anon, please, who is that?
>Not because they need an internship, but because they identified problems they needed to solve.What if I don't have any problems...
>>102474751You have a fixed mindsetYes your implementation is trash, but that's just an opportunity to learn more from the AES library.Look at your implementation, the one from the AES library, and think about what you should have done differently or how you were supposed to think.
>>102476241if you are a human being, you have problems.humans are meant to problem solve and find problems.
>>102475866I don't know. I found the photos on /int/. I like how they look like they were taken on film
>>102474751In your case there was a clear way to defining what is the best software because algorithms like the ones used in cryptography are closer to mathematics.But most software is not like that, when it comes to most applications, protocols, scripts, programming languages, operating systems there is no way of saying that one is better than the other and it's more about design and aesthetics than raw quantified efficiency, this is why computer science is not a science and is not engineering but more like an art.Try to approach the field with more creativity.
>>102471832I want to do the same. Wanna do it together?
>>102477120Let's do it bro. I'm quitting next month
>>102471832>I hate webdev and fintech. I just want to sit down and study math again, then go through the basics and dive deeper into programming itself. I've wanted to sit down and prepare myself for SICP, TAOCP, CLRS and properly expand on the little I know. I don't want to be stuck working on rushed abandonware startup software predating me for decades, I just want to perfect the basics and solve problems.I cannot express how much I relate to you
>>102474713How are you trying to revive it?
>>102475730AI code is only useful for a laugh when I get burnt out after 100k lines
How do i contribute to le hacker culture
>>102460740You didn't understand the complex system written by someone else, that is the original post. Get rekt son.
>>102459094things die anon. its not coming back. you are complaining that kids dont know how to ride a horse when everyone is learning how to drive a car.
>>102459094>gaslighting retarded nerds into working for freeHR finally figured out what FOSS really is all about.
I rather take a solid codebase with standards than a hackjob with ""creative"" implementations and tools.
>>102479809Solid?
>>102477497making gimp's engine (GEGL) a symbol of free speech and liberation from big tech. reviving 2000s internet culture one shitpost at a time.
>>102480450are you affiliated with the american association of homosexual negroids?
>>102472663James Gosling or Richard Stallman?
If you guys didn't promote shitty tech youtubers like linustechtips and those asian tech gurus maybe this wouldn't be a thing nowadays. I've seen countless times people who are indeed skilled programmers promoting these scums over here and other corners of the web
I have no problems to solve. All the programing I do for fun is just little puzzles like advent of code. I cannot imagine anything useful I could build.
>>102476925yeah but in that case it just becomes a linear exercise, there is no way to be creative about pascals triangle for example if ur a avg person like me>>102477067there is no "definitive" answer for those things but there are industry standards: the world largely uses TCP/UDP (not the obscure pre internet protocols), C lang (cus it practically works with every cpu's asm lang), the unix based OSes (not prolog or lisp or multics machines), anything substantial for applications or scripting requires dedication beyond a mere hobby (think scripting in bash every single day maybe)The only thing i could think of for linux scripting would be a convenient script to brute force kill processes (probably didn't write it properly) or wipe & format drives asap (didn't finish that), but beyond that someone more intelligent has not only made a GUI solution but also a more intelligent one.https://github.com/zlw9991/gkill
>>102459094smart kids run businesses nowthe barrier to entry is too high to have meaningful impact in computers any moregotta phdmaxx for that
>>102461475>>102459094Unironically tranies are hacker culture. I guess it just naturally comes with their usual lifestyle, such as sitting home and doordashing food. I don't know if you guys sit on forums or follow anything but literally every second guy in hacking is a tranie or a tranie-furrie. All normal people are too busy fighting modern world problems, you know. Don't have time to sit in a basement tinkering with programming languages.
>>102484269Isn't that hector Martin?
Problem with your analogy is: You won't find realization, illumination or even a tiny bit of life meaning writing your compiler or learning assembly. Whereas I could find peace and fullfilment playing bach in the morning on my piano.I can't find it right now but I saw the news of a super nerd guy who programmed some very instrumental thing about C or whatever. He was found dead in his house, alone. No family or anything. I don't want to be that guy.Why would I delve so deeply and autistically in something that's not going to fill the voids of my existence? I only program so I can have money to not die and help my family. You're asking too much for something that is not worth it in the end.
>>102484369BasedAll this cyberpunk shiet is nonsense and delirium in which people will commit suicide
>>102484269 >All normal people are too busy fighting modern world problemsWhat problem? And how to fight them?
>>102485587>What problem? Recession, upcoming technocratic totalitarianism, 2 active war conflicts(soon to be 3), climate-based mass-migration to the north and the possible disease outbreaks it will cause, rising cultural tensions, etc.>And how to fight them?It depends on where you live, but for most people I would say the best way to fight them is to prepare for them. If you are not in the position to directly influence any of these issues it's better for you to focus on survival
>>102459094Anon there are not enough people who are naturally hackers to keep up with programmer demand.
>>102459094Anon I know tons of people like this they are underutilized autistic wrecks, or neets. If the system could find a real accomodating way to get these types in the workforce it would benefit. Rajeesh replaced all wozlikes.
>>102461434A composer programs music lol.
>>102474833Kek normies love spouting that shit, it's why they are all gimped losers
>>102459889They actually learned from their teachers, not trained, they comprehended the mind of their tutor, then they started forming the information to suit their style, hence the difference and creativity of everyone of them.Today in the industrial society you get trained in school to be a good boy for the system, anything creative or different is considered false.
>>102485915The system is too big everybody needs to be a polished modular cog
>>102485942True, but that's not a life a you'd want.
>>102459094the industry don't try to improve anymore they figure out that they can make money with frauds and delusions like the recent "AI" shit.this effect the community since any middle class above the age of 20 today don't have time for DIY anymore he needs to get the god damn food on the tableso you describe something that is more comprehensive than a culture shift, its an economic problem
>>102484369What is the meaning of life? If you like playing on piano - then do it, but most of the hackers LIKE programming and hacking. If it is the thing they like the most, then why shouldn't they do it? What makes your hobby more special or meaningful than their work?
>>102459094hacker culture is alive, just not as visible as it used to be because 99.9% of the internet aren't nerds anymore
>>102486841so, where do real hackers meet now?
>>102487075universities, interest groups, irc channels, github they write about their projects on their own websites it seems dead compared to how fast the normienet moves but i'm not sure it's much slower than it used to be
>>102459094the cs majors without jobs will prolly soon turn to cyber crime so you will have your hackers the economy just needs to get worse
>>102471832I took a year off after my bachelor to do some shitty personal project, now I have to find a job but the job market is shit, don't quit your job.>>102487075https://neocities.org/
>but because they identified problems they needed to solveThere is very little I want or need. There is no piece of software that I can think of that I would need that does not exist. Consequently, there is no motivation for me to do projects of any kind unless for job related reasons or for just fucking around.
>>102484369Problem with your objection is that you extrapolate your own personal psychology to the rest of the world. If you read works by actual hackers, you can tell they were having fun.
>>102459094The scene is dead.
>>102487452The job market is shit indeed. It's a founders market, and will remain like that for a long time. I have a list of ideas that I will iterate on and if I hit it big, then it means I'll have enough money to retire anyways. If I still fail, then I have savings for 5 years that allow me to try again autistically hundreds of times, before I have to go freelance again to support myself or sell everything I own to keep myself afloat. Life is too short to cuck yourself with other's people problems. If I fail, then I can die in peace knowing the hacker-to-entrepreneur pipeline was at least attempted with my own vision that let to lots of learning.
>>102487452>https://neocities.org/Can I create a website there and name it "I hate trannies"?
>>102460608STM32 as an MCU comes with a really nice piece of config software called CubeMX which can generate a lot of boilerplate USB device code for you. You can very easily have it show up as a virtual com port for example where u can send arbitrary data
>>102461475>at?Ebonics
>>102489296Please do!
>>102474713>$PEOPLE don't care about my autism, but rather about having six-figure careersWell, that sounds reasonable!
>>102459094The cloud killed hacking
>>102474380Yes, anon, it's work.
>>102459094>"I have this problem, I wish there was a software to solve this"There is, you're just bad at searching.
>>102493122thisI found a lot of cool shit just googling with "github" before
>>102474380Yes. Work is like that. You have a fundamentally wrong idea about the industry.
>>102481121xah lee
>>102496151What’d he say exactly
>>102496168He says he doesn't understand the philosophy behind it and thinks it is a waste of time and effort to learn how to use stuff like tiling window managers, you can watch his vod if you are interested
>>102485766I don't think normal people actually care about "survival" or any of that shit
Hacker culture sounds gay nglDidn't read your post btw
>>102478379Make a microwave run DOOM
>>102459094Trvke, it was the hobbyist that created half-life, doom, mods that would become csgo, Minecraft and subsequently laid the foundation for gaming today
>>102478379How do I get maido gf
>>102497982It was also the hobbyist that laid the laid the foundation for aerospace, they didn’t care about money, they were just having fun making stuff fly
>>102477037I would freak the fuck out and sperg out if my place looked like that. I fucking loath clutter with every fiber in my being.
>>102477037Sexooooooooooooo
>>102497982The other side of the coin is the malcontent businessman. If was the corrupt businessman that created software like JIRA or SAP. such software is soulless. The hobbyist though, yields creative energy combined with passion, to create masterpieces like Quake, Roller Coaster Tycoon or Minecraft
>>102459094There's a balance between creativity and practicalityIf you are too practical, you end with these soulless corporate products that have a lot of functionality but it's useless. Like the random stuff that comes with windows and nobody uses, or these dozens ERPs they make but corporations use excel/powerbi insteadIf you are too creative, you end with those overhyped programs that don't do anything, sometimes don't even exist. Like the maid stuff on this board that is a bunch of ideas nobody really put in practice, also crazy AI stuff that never works as intended and so onProblem is that this balance is severely broken nowadays>hobbyists being too insecure to make "inferior" products, trying too hard to fit to useless standards>corporations being pressed by politics, their developers can't even put even a minuscule joke on stuffThe solution for individuals is simple, just stop worrying too much about useless standards and metrics, allow yourself to make "inferior" stuff that might grow into something great in the far future, be TRULY neutral about politics, corporate-neutral indifference instead of "anti-politics" drama. The problem is that so few people are aware of the situationPlus there's the fact that nothing of value is produced when aiming towards a public too broad, but programmers nowadays wants to cover all cases and that their programs/libraries are useful for absolutely everything (and end not being useful for anything!)
>>102498540Also, a thing I should clarify>corporations being pressed by politics, their developers can't even put even a minuscule joke on stuff>be TRULY neutral about politics, corporate-neutral indifference instead of "anti-politics" dramaI think the way corporations deal with politics is sometimes better than when free software projects indulge in useless drama, raising banners of "I'M ANTI-POLITICS!!!" and attracting imbeciles for no reason. But being so worried you don't let yourself put 0xB00B5 in a variable like how Microsoft removed some silly magic words is pretty dumb
>>102498540As the brightest FOSS devs say>Nothing follows function. Just read the documentation.
>>102474833Comply with the heard has been around for ages. If anything its a bit better now since it doesn't lead to death or being hung. We're you're probably getting fucked is that now people pipeline themselves due to all the pressure of modern life and needing to dedicate more time just to eat than before.
Well not trying to advertise or anything but it does feel like now would be a good time to introduce my channel ehemhttps://youtu.be/32LhkcyvbY4?si=WodG4q5WHkI-oXgU
>>102499497>hacker>shares the youtube link with the tracker tokenguess ill check it out
>>102459889tutoring couldn't be further from uncreative training AKA schoolingalmost every genious composer, and any genius in general, in any field of knowledge, was thoughtfully tutored as a kid
>>102461822jannies actively oppose anything other than mindless consoom, offtopic or bait threads
>>102459094Absolutely, there’s definitely hope! As a self-taught programmer, I totally resonate with your perspective on treating programming as an art form—a creative problem-solving journey. It’s crucial for us to embrace that DIY spirit and see coding not just as a means to an end but as an ongoing exploration of our creativity.The current landscape can feel overwhelming, with many just chasing that paycheck. But for those of us who genuinely enjoy the craft, it’s all about finding problems we’re passionate about and tackling them head-on. Writing scripts, automating tasks, or building side projects not only sharpens our skills but also fosters a mindset of innovation.Every line of code we write is an opportunity to learn and grow, just like musicians or painters practice their art. So, while it may seem like the DIY hacker culture is fading, I believe there’s a vibrant community of young programmers ready to push back against that norm. We can inspire each other to dive into our own projects and embrace the creative process.Let’s keep challenging ourselves and each other to identify those everyday problems and create solutions. After all, it’s this spirit of exploration and creativity that will set us apart and redefine what it means to be a programmer in today’s world!
>>102499748fck off with that GPT shit
