> Pir Sultan Abdal (born Haydar) is an important religious figure in Alevism of Turkmen origin, who is thought to have been born in the village of Banaz in present-day Sivas Province, Turkey. He is considered legendary among his followers. His life is reconstructed from folkloric sources, especially religious poems which are believed to have been composed by himself and transmitted by ashiks.> During the Ottoman–Persian Wars, he supported religious heterodoxy and the political subversion of Anatolia which got him hanged
>>16529197just another shia causing damage
Why is borderline Ali worship so common? I've seen so many Islamic sects put him equal or above the prophet himself?
>>16529225Muslims already worship Muhammad and Ali is just Muhammad but cooler (or more accurately Muhammad plus Jesus plus the Saoshyant), so it's a pretty obvious conclusion.
>>16529251>Ali is the SaoshyantIs this unironically what persian converts thought
>>16529225he's cooler. That's why he gets the sects that think he's god or something
>>16529225it's insane. Even groups like mazdakites latched onto Ali to remain relevant
>>16529505What?
>>16529225Read a biography of Mohammad and a biography of Ali and think of which you would rather follow
>>16529549the khurramites were mazdakites who fused shi'ism with mazdakism
>>16529554>biography of AliAli the God-King/Master Sorcerer has very little in common with the historical Ali
>>16529212Based
>>16529565I thought the khurramites were Zoroastrian rebels against the abbasids
>>16529582No their beliefs were a mix of mazdakism and shi'ism
>>16529569> Ali the God-King/Master Sorcerer has very little in common with the historical AliMuhammad the prophet has very little in common with the historical Muhammad
>>16529585How do you know
>>16529590Because every chronicler says that about them .
>>16529590We know they praised Mazdak and had similar beliefs to the mazdakites. We also they had imams and both Muhammad and Ali were part of their beliefs with many khurramites believing their imams to be reincarnations of Muhammad and/or Ali. Depending on the chronicler, there are slightly different descriptions with some saying the shi'ism was an outward face to assume an identity of muslims in the caliphate and others just saying they had mixed beliefs from mazdakism and shi'ism
>>16529607Can you name some chroniclers
>>16529619Isn’t mazdak another form of Ahura Mazda
>>16529622https://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/korramisjust read this it's a decent summary
>>16529627>Isn’t mazdak another form of Ahura Mazdano he was a guy who created his own sect and in the late sasanian period
>>16529637Was he like mani
>>16529649I guess but the similarities are superficial in the both founded new religions and were killed by the sassanid state. If you want a book that describes all these heterodox movements.The Nativist Prophets of Early Islamic Iran: Rural Revolt and Local Zoroastrianism
>>16529655ThanksDo you know anything about AlevisI’m not sure if they’re Muslims or their own religion
>>16529691>Do you know anything about AlevisSorry I'm don't really know much about them
>>16529251What makes him cooler?
>>16529827buckbroke the Persians
>>16529251Even non muslims respect Ali
>>16530012that second comment is copium. Just because your religion changes from its origin doesn't remove that origin. Otherwise why would you worship "Imam Ali"
>>16529587And what is a mere prophet to a God/Wizard? The two aren't remotely comparable
>>16530141What difference does the title makeSunni Muslims literally worship Mohammad (piss be upon him)They call him the most perfect man and blow themselves up if they hear someone criticize him
>>16531212>What difference does the title makeIt's not just a title. Shia believe their imams are the lynchpin of the cosmos
>>16532190Isn’t that like Hindus who believe that Krishna is an avatar of shiva
>>16533062I don't really see the similarities
>>16529856I thought that was Umar
>>16533886he's referring to shi'ism in persia
>>16533976Do Shias worship Ali or notWhy doesn’t anyone give a straight answer
>>16534867I mean its rather obvious
>>16529197>tfw soulful folk Ali worship was destroyed by soulless islamic legalist shit
What is exactly is the appeal of Ali? What prompted various groups across the ages to worship him
>>16529827he had a cool sword
>>16536299Probably because Muhammad was a cuckhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wSTsrXJ9wLM&pp=ygUQRGlkIGFpc2hhIGNvbW1pdA%3D%3D
>>16533886>>16533976Did Persians become shia because of their hate of Umar?
>>16531212you're not a muslim if you hate the prophet, you can't even be shia.Btw shias only promote Ali to get attention from mainstream muslims. It's just iranis trying to be special
>>16538263>you can't even be shiaMuhammad's only purpose in shia islam is to legitimate Ali.
>>16538421So is Muhammad like John the Baptist to themDo they have their own book of Ali sayings
>>16538645>So is Muhammad like John the Baptist to themMuhammad is still officially number one in shi'ism but its obvious that on the ground Ali is the real number one>Do they have their own book of Ali sayingsYes they do.
>>16538843What’s it called?Is it better than the quran
>>16538973you can easily search it up
>>16538973Nahj al balagha
>>16537374Kek Do Sunnis know this
>>16540221Seems interesting I didn’t realize shia culture was so different
>>16542782Shi'ism was the domain of anti-caliphate forces so it makes sense thst it's difference once you dig deeper. On the surface it doesn't seem to different
>>16536299>le chilvalric nice guy warrior archetype with high levels of charisma
>>16533110They both believe that a man is the representative of godSufis seem to have similar philosophies to Hindu gurus
>>16542814Except for the Fatimid caliphate and al HakimThey literally chose the craziest nigga to be their representation of god
>>16544356>They both believe that a man is the representative of godWhat a vague and useless criteria
>>16536304Was it a magic sword like Alexander
>>16529691>t.aleviDepends who you ask, alevi was also used an umbrella term by the ottomans.In general turkish speaking alevis sometimes see themselves more as a different branch of muslims, Haji Bektash is also more important with them while kurmanji/zaza alevis glorify Pir Sultan Abdal (the guy in OPs picture) for his criticism and death against the Ottoman empire who persecuted alevis.Turkish alevis are more influenced by old tutkic and Sufi religious traces while kurmanji/zaza have more zoroastrian and mithraic elements. Both groups adopted some Sufi and Shia some Sufi and Shia customs like the glorifying of Ali, but that's about it we don't go to the mosque and instead have cem which also is something completely else, we don't fast during Ramadan, we don't have to go to Mekka, we don't believe in the Koran etc.
>>16545851Thanks Are Alevis and Alawites the same thing?If you don’t believe in the Koran do you have you own bookWhat’s Mithraism. I keep hearing people say it’s the religion Iranians had before Zoroastrianism but not one ever explains what it was like
>>16545851>old tutkic and Sufi religious traces while kurmanji/zaza have more zoroastrian and mithraic elements.peak larper delusions
>>16547345I mean read it for yourself this place like any other western forum is clueless about the middle east especially when there are no Jews or other Semites involved, reading Wikipedia and posting habloautism is not enough btw. Haji Bektash was of actual turkic heritage, influenced by turkic traditions and elements, and the migration of Oghuz Turkmens was an important part into shaping the Turkish alevism. He was also the first one who prayed and preached in turkish unlike everyone else who did in arabic. Kurmanji/zaza alevism especially in the Dersim/Tunceli region is something completely else and heavily influenced by older religions from that area and other Iranian religions. Some of the kurmanjis are also assimilated Yazidis, but they probably don't even know themselves.As I said the alevism is an umbrella term and the definition for one region of alevis might not be the same for another even if both are Turkish or kurmanji/zaza.>>16547097No Alawites are their own thing and are only in Syria afaik, they are Arabs who are more into the whole Ali thing than Alevis (who are only in Turkey) and identify as muslim, that's not to say that there aren't any muslim alevis. Especially in the late stages of the ottoman empire the Sultan forced alevis into the alevi Bektaşi order to make them more loyal for the ottoman cause, muslimsfy them and to have a better control on them. This was to prevent rebellions which occured in the east most of the time. Alevis don't have a book and a lot of them are also not really religious, I would bet they are more "liberal" than your average chatolic or even protestant, not to mention than your average muslim.Mithaism was a popular cult amongst Iranians and symbolized the sun, when Zoroaster spread his religion he adopted Mithra as one of the yazatas to Ahura Mazda next to Anahita. The Roman Mithraism also comes from here, it spread to the empire after they conquered east anatolia and further Iranian lands
>>16548185>muh religion is too arcane for youYour post reeks of larp. It's the usual /his/ post.
>>16548331You sound like a Reddit atheist Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist
>>16548331My bad that I don't align with your headcanon on how the middle east is patched together. I already said that it isn't just black and white like you want it to be and maybe Wikipedia tells you whatever that might be. Not even our graves are in the standards of Islam where it has to align in direction of Mekka but rather alevi graves at least the ones I saw in east anatolia were all looking to the east in the direction of sunrise. And we are talking about graves here which go 300+ years back in some bumfuck remote villages in the mountains which don't even have fucking internet. It's a custom which the people did in the past till to this day, I really doubt some uneducated farmers and shepherds in bumfuck nowhere, suddenly decided to larp as whatever makes you seethe so much. Suprise the middle east doesn't just consist of the two great semitic fan fictions of an already shit book, christianity and islam
>>16548836If Alevis were classified as a separate religion in turkey, what percentage of the population would they be
>>16548836>some bumfuck hicks don't do this specific thingYou're basing your larp on this?
>>16550026I'm basing it on actual things that was just one example and they aren't the only ones as well.
>>16550026>butt hurt muslim can't accept not everyone in the middle east is muslimmany such cases
>>16545329Do Shia’s believe people can become gods?
Protestant tier religion
>>16550148>dude muh religion is too esoteric for anyone to understandWhat does me mocking you for this have to do with islam? Imagine lacking reading comprehension to such an absurd degree
>>16552759>y-you l-larp dude!!!>no arguments whatsoever>seethes and shits himselfgrim
>>16553929I'm not seething. It's just something I mentioned. That MENA hicks love to pretend to be mysterious. And yes it's all a larp as most of these things were unknown until the west discovered it all
>>16554090Are you a Muslim?
>>16554090>still no argumentsyou never even met an alevi and I doubt you knew what they were before this thread
>>16555323No.>>16556354>you never even met an aleviI don't care dude. You can keep pretending your obscure is too esoteric for everyone but your hick ethnic group to understand.
>>16556738>still no arguments and even projecting nowTalk about larping, I guess this happens when you suddenly ditch your whole culture and start praying to an arab merchant or jewish carpenter for centuries. Impressive
>>16529197Is he holding a lute or a sapling?
>>16557449>dude we wuz *insert ancient thing* we had no idea about until white people discovered it in the 19th century Brown ape
