Everyone is already familiar with what was recently released, there's really no reason for me to go over it...CHG mixture.the simplicity of CHG-EHG=PIE has been refuted and we can conclude that there was actually a kind of Caucasus-Lower Volga cline+Progress-EHG cline.i.e. the Sredni Stog were the PIEbut hey? Have you already deleted all your maps about old PIE migration from the gallery using Yamnaya as a base? I already collected them all and my printed abstracts are in the trash.
>>16539458Sredni Stog were a Yamnaya group
>>16539462Not.Pre-yamnaya
Serednii Stih was le based
>>16539474Is that the same I2 Slavs are descended from?
>>16539462>>16539458Khvalynsk weren't much different from the Sredni, well, mixing with EHG really changed some things.it was confirmed that the Sredni PIE had fragile skulls compared to other populations, including the Yamnaya themselves.
>>16539474Kurgans I-2 (WHG)... it seems that the farmers did not really exterminate the HG, to the point that they were kurgan elites. and the previous theories were right;it's very trite to attribute kurgans as an invention or something inherently IE. however, they were wrong to say that they were CHG, in this case they were WHG or EHG burials
>>16539458>Have you already deleted all your maps about old PIE migration from the gallery using Yamnaya as a base?sadly yes ;(my maps were beautiful and very informative... some were actually incredible, but they are using the wrong premise, they will have to go.Rest in peace yamnaya, a father who was never truly father of his glorious children.
>>16539458So:EHG+Khvalynsk= PIE Sredni StogSredni stog PIE+CHG=yamnaya, the second IE large territorial extension group.So, yamnaya>corded ware and etc etcI m right?
Yamnaya created some branches of IE languages. Sredni Stog is ancestor of Yamnaya. >>16539474Locals, not elites. Suvorovo males were SS elites. >In his earliest discussions Telegin interpreted the Novodanilovka graves (his term) as a wealthy elite element within the Sredni Stog culture. Later he changed his mind and made them a separate culture. I agree with his original position: the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka complex represents the chiefly elite within the Sredni Stog culture. Novodanilovka graves are distributed across the same territory as graves and settlements designated Sredni Stog, and many aspects of grave ritual and lithics are identical. The Suvorovo-Novodanilovka elite was involved in raiding and trading with the lower Danube valley during the Tripolye B1 period, just before the collapse of Old Europe.40
>>16539489No. The key is Progress/Lowe Volga-like. EHG+Central Asia + Progress = Khvalynsk Dnieper Donets + Progress = Sredni Stog Sredni Stog with high Progress = Yamnaya
>>16539489Khvalynsk is irrelevant. Study says that Serednii Stih was 4/5 CLV and rest UNHG. Alos some usatovo was added.
>>16539493And about the CHG?You are the same of the other topic?
>>16539498CHG was already heavily infused into progress.
I hope it's not another trick of some biased studies...just like the trash from southern arcand yes. You can insult me now, I won't read it or even respond, who cares about people who used stone axes? my business is everything from the Iron Age onwards
>>16539490Usatovo wasn't even rich in I2 so not sure why you think it would be them you absolute mongrel
>>16539506Usatovo and Suvorovo are two different cultures.
>>16539498CHG is in reality South Caucasian HG. We haven't found CHG in North Caucasus, all the samples are mixed.
>>16539458No dummy, the real PIE is the progress actually.
>>16539502Indo-anatolian, babyCope
>>16539458PIE emerges precicely at the very year that the final sinking of the last remnant of Doggerbank sank.PIE is a result from the violent last survivors migrating east where their massive increase in resources combined with radical island survivalism mixed into a new form of expansive rivalistic survival cult.Osiris/Oannes were similar figures that fled from people that ravaged the north sea area when they lost their lands and shrines.
Sredni Stog? The weak skull people?Maybe they were a little farmers
>>16539522'Dnieper' and 'Aberdeen' are the same exact word, but with the parts 'river' and 'flooded' switched to fit the local word order.Modern shy etymology will tell you that 'Don' is celtic for river, while ignoring the fact that Ebr is the actual celtic word for river, in order to evade the need to explain the difference that would open peoples eyes to the western origin of the word and how it has a direct equal and proof of the meaning within the word Aberdeen itself.
>>16539458It's still barbaric and kids with Legos make something better... but it's infinitely better than any piece the Yamnaya ever had, in fact, what decent structure did the Yamnaya make? anyway related photo
Corded Ware women more mobile than their men (Sjögren et al. 2016)women with steppe ancestry contributed to the formation of populations associated with the eastern culture of corded ware,The same with the SS
>>16539462This
>>16539458>Anatolian IE left from the steppe Eneolithic> sredni stog reserved the rest>southern btfo arcists completely like Anatolia with steppe Eneolithic was found
>>16539573C
>>16539576no.A-West was so mutt a long time ago that it's ridiculous to use him as the basis for somethingA-East makes more chronological sense, especially from a POP point of view.
>>16539580Why are you reading what you wrote? animal.The Eneolithic (let's pretend you know what that is) "steppe" is northwest of the Caucasus, and East works well if you gradually move it south, location of the PIA.but who said you understand anything? Again, northwest*****
>>16539586It looks like someone here is American, right? Steppe Eneolithic is the North Caucasus hahahyour argument falls apart when you don't have the slightest basic historical knowledgeYou lost
>>16539594your hopes die with basic geographic information that with a simple Google search, you could learn:Steppe Eneolithic is EVERYWHERE from south of the Volga to north of the Caucasus, the area you used to "disprove" me. try again sweetie
Sredny Stog meant several things. In Ukraine it was EHG/WHG but in southern Russia(Don river) it was EHG(+some CHG) but only a substrate in PIE populations. None of these researchers have figured out anything new no matter how many samples they have it's all just the same old meaningless inconclusive word salad. All they have to do is say PIE is a meta-ANE language from between the rivers Don and Volga which is violently alien to the Caucasus.
>>16539462>>16539487>>16539520>>16539561acephalous, Sredni is the father of Yamnaya.read the fucking article
>>16539521Indo-anatolians from the volga of course.
Do we know when Steppe eneolithic formed and how, where?
>>16539604Are you mad, baby? Didn't mom make your lunch today?Firstly, you worm, I don't know you to come here calling me adjective things for no apparent reason, secondly you are retarded.why?this disgusting and probably biased study, They "term" Sredni I was Ukrainian *Hunter Gatherer* which contributed 10% of ancestry, all maternal, to Yamnaya. again, you disgusting creature, 10%, and again for luck, 10%*******Yamnaya destroyed them, retard.
>>1653961618000-5500 BC. Nalchik sample from 5000 BC is too Anatolian. All EHG have at least some CHG generally around 5% so we know there was a contact zone early but it probably continued until Georgians and such migrated from Anatolia and caused pure CHG to go extinct.
>>16539622Yep.all of this happened because larptom jive pagan made a post with retarded statements and now the idiots here are passing this distorted information, like the OP.I can say that Also not all was maternal actually.If we speak of Dnieper donets people. I2 proves this, obviously.>>16539616Yes.
>>16539622>>16539629Lol sources???
>>16539622>>16539604Why are little girls fighting? Do you realize that deep down one agrees with the other? as I said at the beginning of the topicYamnaya/Sredny Stog is 80% Eneolithic/Progress according to the study, rest UNHG and Trypillian.I don't know how difficult it is to understand this
>>16539632what sources do you want your mule in a state of putrefaction?Do you need me to teach you how to read simple, abstract 2-paragraph texts?I'll take it easy, okay?Sredni I is Dniepr Donets + farmers.An Eneolithic group from the eastern steppes conquered Sredni. (what formed the yamnaya)Yamnaya formed from steppe men and Sredni women.but the Sredni component is only 10-30%.why? the retarded as you ask, because all maternal seen with the lack of I2 in the steppe, but the presence of U5.get it now? I can literally draw if I want, its fool..
>>16539648the tough man avoiding the question...what then is I2 in Yamnaya? Is it from the Eneolithic steppe?Or was it your aunt who was the Yamnaya's wife?
>>16539648Russian Sredny Stog = EHG+CHG2013 Russian/Ukrainian border was the border of worlds
>>16539659What type of disability do you have? or is it the same troll that was prostrating to the god tom le jive in the other thread? imagine being so effeminate that you defend a man with all your strength.and rephrase your question.Yamnaya does not have I2 in the steppe regions. I2 is found in the far west.>>16539664simplistic nonsense
>>16539677avoiding the question again....my last question;What imaginary study are you talking about, strong man? This is a pre-print you idiot haha you don't know what you're talking about.
the study changed the ENTIRE IE structureSredny Stog is older than Yamnaya, carried R1a and R1b, it is not certain that it is the ancestor of Yamnaya, but it is very likely that it is the direct ancestor of the ancient European CWC.Yamnafools lost, again
>>16539687Those resemble the Sredni I people. They disappeared after the Steppe eneolithic invaded them.
>>16539677Brutal race fact. Time to educate this woman-brained baboonette.Target: Russia_EN_Srednestogovskaya:NEO174Distance: 2.8999% / 0.0289994184.4 RUS_Sidelkino_HG9.8 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic3.6 ITA_Villabruna2.2 TUR_Barcin_NTarget: Ukraine_N_Mariupol:NEO268Distance: 5.6006% / 0.0560058464.2 RUS_Sidelkino_HG30.4 ITA_Villabruna4.0 TUR_Barcin_N1.4 Georgia_Kotias_MesolithicYamnaya and Corded Ware were zero-dropping Ukrainian Sredny Stog but not Odesa TrypillianTarget: Corded_Ware_CZE_early:PNL001.mergedDistance: 4.6513% / 0.0465128068.0 RUS_Progress_En:PG200419.8 Russia_EN_Srednestogovskaya:NEO17412.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110Target: Russia_Samara_EBA_YamnayaDistance: 2.9375% / 0.0293753274.0 RUS_Progress_En:PG200414.8 Russia_EN_Srednestogovskaya:NEO17411.2 UKR_Trypillia:I2110
BruhAnother topic on this rubbish?we need to explain that the SS were.... WOW!! hunter-gatherers with almost 90% EHG ancestry and other rubbish like agoutis and WHG???? Super revolutionary new study proves that the Yamnaya came from EHG populations, damn! This is new, huh?you idiots, this is super well known
>>16539708Yamnaya didn't came from EHG. >>16539703They actually say the minor farmer admixture in Yamnaya is from some neolithic Caucasians.
>>16539708they are arguing that Yamnaya is the result of something on the line between Berezhnovka and Neolithic Armenia, mixing with something like UKR_N.
>>16539717They say it because they refuse to completely debunk the Armenian model because that would too racist or whatever so they leave it as a slim-chance scenario. The Armenian shit was packed also with Iran_N and Mesopotamian-Levantine shit which sticks out unless you don't want it to. Nalchik adds very little to the models and even if it works sometimes as a minor source it could be because there was so much related ancestry within Nalchik that it outweighs the alien elements.
>>16539743LolSchizo pol
>>16539625>All EHG have at least some CHG generally around 5%Does the Karelian EHG have CHG?
>>16539695>>16539687The Don guys are core yamnaya + Sredni Stog (in other words, excess UKR_N) according to the article.The Kalmykia Yamnaya I2 is the yamnaya nucleus
>>16539743God it feels good to be right and that browns failed with thier IE theories.
>>16539750Progress doesn't pick Armenia_N and they were quite different anyway. It seems like there was a series of counter-clockwise movements. CHG into Lower Volga, Lower Volga into Don, Don into Nalchik. Not necessarily in that order.Target: Nalchik_Eneolithic:NL122Distance: 3.5866% / 0.0358655837.4 Russia_EN_Srednestogovskaya:NEO17427.8 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic:NEO28121.4 Armenia_Aknashen_N12.8 TUR_Barcin_N:I07450.6 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3Target: RUS_Progress_En:PG2004Distance: 5.4422% / 0.0544221642.6 Russia_EN_Srednestogovskaya:NEO17436.6 Georgia_Kotias_Mesolithic:NEO28120.8 RUS_AfontovaGora3:AfontovaGora3
>>16539743Eh, the Armenian model is pretty much dead. >>16539752They all show some if you model them as WHG-ANE-CHG. It might not be CHG but that Central Asian ANE+Iran thing. The mixing probably happened long time ago. The J1 EHGs aren't different from others.
Kalmykia.??????
>>16539762Não entendi nada hahahaEu não sou o cara que você respondeu ok?Então, os verdadeiros e gostosos PIE eram os progress? Devo me ajoelhar aos progress agora? E não aos yamnaya?
>>16539781Why are you speaking Angolan to me? get lost
>>16539774>>16539754The population of Kalmykia is excluded from Core Yamnaya. See Data Table 2.
>>16539788Responda minha pergunta.
>>16539770Okay, thanks for explaining. This is offtopic, but i came yesterday across this gpAdm model. I'm quite simple Fingoloid, so there's couple things that catch my eye. One; is it true that southern Europeans have that kind of CHG element (or whatever that Caucasian/ Iran is) and 2; Seemingly most Europeans have quite clearly different proportions of EHG and that of Caucasus/Iran than Sintashta had. Am i completely mixing things up, and that Caucasus/Iran has nothing to do with CHG?
Here's what happened. >Lower Volga Orlovka HGs(PIE) pick up CHG from North Caucasus over millenia but mostly before 6000 BC>also retain high ANE due to natural barriers>invade Lower Don to form Proto-Repin by 5000 BC>conquer Odesa to form Usatovo by 4500 BC>Usatovo and Repin maintain contact but both refuse to mix with Ukrainian Sredny Stog so they dodge their WHG almost 100%>mature Repin has Trypillian admixture from Odesa and splinters into Yamnaya and Proto-Corded Ware by 3600 BCThere's other details to it, there was additional Caucasus admixture in many of the Usatovo samples but not the oldest which are more like Yamnaya with slightly higher EEF. They were probably just importing women like the Yamnaya outlier from Ozera but this was inconsequential.
So, is Sredny the ancestor of progress?
>>16539953The opposite.
>>16539953Probably not. Looks like it there was a Khvalynsk->Don Sredny Stog->Dead End Ukrainian Sredny Stog cultural transmission but all of this was just a side-show to Volga Delta Orlovka IEs. I think people keep freaking out about Sredny Stog ITT because they don't know any other words. Don Sredny Stog is definitely an important substrate in PIE but not the core.
>>16539530…
>>16539967>Volga Delta Orlovkado you have samples?
Who is thePIE?
>>16539691It is possible, but so is a shared origin of Sredny Stog (the steppe group). It doesn't matter now as it's all Steppe Eneolithic
>>16540773Sredny Stog (Steppe).They had R1a and all types of R1b. Yamnaya with brown R1b may be too low a sample size.
>>16540803retarded, They were mostly I2 with a little R1a.in fact, there are more r1a clades in yamnaya than in SS, which is still low.but I don't know if they really are PIE.
>>16540773>>16540803progress ruined the disgusting dniepers
>>16540821I didn't understandThey were extremely clandestine. Like the Mongols. Different cultures are dominated by different Y-DNA and older, more dominant haplogroups are often replaced by newcomers.
>>16539476No, Slavs are in CTS10228, which is separated from L699 by over 15,000 years.
Who cares about the real "pie"?I'm glad the CHG-EHG meme finally died and now they talk about the Progress-EHG cline, which is the real steppe cline.
>>16540773There are many samples of Yamnaya, but they have always been considered PIE for reasons of availability basically. yes, 80% of the maps are rubbishThey are literally a single dead-end tribe whose descendants are less than 15% Greek and Anatolian.Yamnaya became famous because it was tested first and because it fell into the mouths of /his/ and pol in 2019, knowing that here 70% are probably on average, 60% Mayan.anyway if Kumsay was tested first everyone would be talking about Kumsay etc etc etcNow that we have many samples, we can see who really did what and who is the father of great culture.It was the relatives of the Yamnaya who lived in the North who spread across Europe and the world and whose children would eventually displace the Yamnaya, who were already a very small tribe, probably descended from a single family that moved from the north of Russia to the south.the Yamnaya were just a tribe of their own, as useless as the Tocharians or Dacians
>>16539987by your skull you idiot, not ancestrymaybe they were a bit farmersHave I ever been their gracile skull?
>>16539476Slavs, Oddly, have Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer I2 which they share with the Goths.the I2 in Scandinavia today is again, oddly, originally from Scotland.It is as if there was shift about 500 miles eastward in all of Northern Europe sometime in the late Neolithic.
Could someone explain it to me straight? Did Yamnaya come from Stedny Stog or directly from Progress? How do Usatovo, Suvorovo and Khvalynsk fit into this?
>>16540879if the links are correct, I'm seeing a lot of R1b-L51+ in Yamnaya groups, finally Hungary, Romania, Don, Kalmykia, Serbia
>>16540881>>16540879don't listen to the retardthe main cline is EHG-Progress.what we would call PIE would be SS. see my text above. and The date has been postponed for the progress and the sredni stog as sectors of PIE. Yamnaya is just another branch.>>16540859
>>16539462So true.
>>16540867>Oddly, have Scandinavian Hunter Gatherer I2Nigga prove this. That would actually make a great deal of sense but I don't think that's the case. >the I2 in Scandinavia today is again, oddly, originally from ScotlandThis would also make perfect sense, as basically all the R1b-L21 in Scandinavia came from Norwegian kings inviting whole families skilled in fishing to settle the uninhabited coastline and north in the late Viking Age and in waves after. But I've not seen any evidence of this claim either.
>>16539487Even if Sredny were the true PIE speakers, Yamnaya was still a IE-speaking people anyways, and still can be considered the ancestors of all IE branches with the exception of probably Anatolian and perhaps Tocharian.They were still the fathers of their glorious children.
>>16540901Corded Ware comes from Yamnaya, when in fact they are sister cultures, both likely ultimately coming from Sredni Stog
>>16540899Not much of an explanation. What was all that talk in the study about BP and PV groups? If I'm not mistaken, the only difference between them was proportion of EHG-CHG. If that's the case, how can you say any one of them was the ancestor of SS? Couldn't one have just picked up some of the other component during its migration to Ukraine? And what's wrong with the old theory that Khvalynsk is the ancestor of SS?>inb4 WSHGAn early branch of Khvalynsk split away before the WSHG arrived. Why not? The material cultures seem to fit.
>>16540923>>16540927The chronology of all this seems strange, were CWC a Yamnaya branch? Were they direct paternal descendants? Because a few months ago I was hearing a totally different narrative typically (from online schizophrenics).
>>16540923>>16540923I already talked about it here;>Even if Sredny was the real PIE speaker,Actually the language will still be debated, but given the fact that they are the ancestor of Yamnaya and Corded Ware, it makes sense that they spoke at least a PIE dialect. tongues do not sprout from the ground.>Yamnaya were still an IE-speaking people anyway,>e can still be considered the ancestor of all IE branchesnot genetically. this post belongs to the SS, it is the oldest, yamnaya is a branch, you are using the logic of the people in practice in Anatolia...>They were still the fathers of their glorious childrenno.
>>16540955be more coherent in your question...well, see yamnaya and corded as close strands, from an older base. who did not necessarily speak IE, in this case, SS.
>>16540859This is literally my exact post with a handful of words changed
>>16540976>be more coherent in your questionWhat exactly is incoherent about those two questions?
>>16540950I think you are asking the questions the wrong way.Basically, the eneolithic samples from Ukraine are on a spectrum from the Ukraine_N type to more of the Yamnaya/Progress type.The type of website, which features individuals like Yamnaya, is based in Ukraine.
>>16540913>prove this>evidence thatWhat do you mean? Look at the wikipedia, Eupedia, and Y-treefull trees for I2.
Nobody answer me...Who is the PIE?
>>16541005No. Spoon-feed me. I have no way of knowing the esoterics of I2 clades. And it could just be that they share a similar ancestor from the neolithic, rather than some Slavs having a SHG origin. The coming from Britain into Scandinavia in the middle ages seems far more plausible than that.
>>16541009What do you want to know, you idiot?It's simple;Sredni Stog is probably where the Indo-European languages form. They were an early WSH population, and they had a lot of WSH ancestry.Yamnaya and Corded Ware were brothers.
>>16541020what is your basis for confirming this exactly?no one stated categorically.What do we know about language?
>>16541038>>16541038are we going to destroy the 14 year old qu33r?1.>From the linguistic perspective, it is worth noting that the Sredni Stog culture, with its limited evidence for agriculture, potentially offers a better archaeological fit for the basal, Indo-Anatolian language community than the eastern Yamnaya culture, which shows no traces of agriculture. This may support a scenario of linguistic continuity of local non-mobile herders in the Lower Dnieper region and their genetic persistence after their integration into the successive and expansive Yamnaya horizon.2.>In-so-far as linguistic evidence can be employed to elucidate human genomic prehistory, the reconstructed vocabulary of core Indo-European culture suggests that the source populations for the steppe ancestry in the earliest Bell Beaker and Corded Ware groups should be sought in the Pontic rather than the Caspian steppe and forest-steppe zones.PIE=SS
Yamnaya cope lost againLol
>>16541045????what an idiot you are hahaThis literally doesn't prove your point, especially the second text.let's try again partner: what is your source for making such a statement?
>>16541076>From the linguistic perspective, it is worth noting that the Sredni Stog culture, with its limited evidence for agriculture, potentially offers a better archaeological fit for the basal, Indo-Anatolian language community than the eastern Yamnaya culture
>>16541087I will teach you how to do a search, first put a link and second, cite ALL arguments. As I said before, nothing is confirmed yet. citing (only) the parts that are part of your convenience is super cringehttps://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0275744>The question therefore is whether it is possible to identify an archaeological scenario that can more satisfactorily account for the transformation that took place between basal and core Indo-European, but without abandoning the connection with the population movements associated with the Yamnaya expansion.Get lost, Sredni cope
>>16541087I thought SS cultivated some grains and possibly tree nuts as well. At least there was evidence of them eating that.
>>16540847There is no PIE without CHG and Dnieper Donets didn't have them before being replaced by Sredni Stog.Both Khvalynsk and Sredni Stog had CHG ancestry.
>>16539474What's the possible sources of the J1 mtDNA that far back? CHG?
>>16541045>>16541020hello friend! copying other people's texts again? There is no guarantee or even linguistic evidencethat any of these cultures spoke PIE. It's a low possibility, but there probably wasn't anything like PIE at the time. MOST modern IE speakers are not descended from them.
>>16541163Holy copethey carried very little CHG, and so much so that the CHG-EHG cline was discarded.they carried steppe ancestry, so "heavy CHG" implies that you mean some CHG tribe separate from them or that the CHG genes dominate in some other way that doesn't happen. CHG was J and was replaced.
>>16540964>yamnaya is a branchIt's a branch that dominated the whole european continent, and thus, gave origin to all the different european branches, and likely even the Indo-Iranian branch.You seem to forget that different modern IE branches have different degrees of separation from each other, they didn't sprout all at the same time directly from PIE. Between PIE and Proto-Germanic, for example, there were some 2,500 years of distance. We all know Germanic, Balto-Slavic and Italo-Celtic were all part of a same macro-branch. Corded Ware is more than likely their ancestors, and their direct ancestors, the Yamnaya, were probably the ancestors of Greek and Indo-Iranian languages as well.
>>16541247>It's a branch that dominated the whole european continentCWC is not Yamnaya.
>>16541247Indo-Iranian came from Fatyanovo, which is a CWC offshoot. R1a-Z93 was found in Fatyanovo in northern Russia.
>>16541247>>16541247I'm not the guy.It probably went like this:Related Sredni Stog - Anatolia (oldest division)Yamnaya -> Afanasievo - TocharianCorded Ware - ancestor of Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, Germanic, Italo-Celtic (yes. you were wrong. Iranian is not Yamnaya).Yamnaya-> Catacomb - ancestor of Greek, Paleo- Balkans, Armenians.Afterwards, the CWC split into the Eastern CWC (Balto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian) and Bell Beakers (Germanic, Italo-Celtic).The Germanic could also be from CWC->Battle Axe, not necessarily from Beakers.
>>16541247Yamnaya copeCorded Ware is unrelated to Yamnaya, as Yamnaya and Corded Ware have different haplotypes and their markers for steppe admixture are also different.Both are almost entirely steppe, however, Yamnaya has more Anatolian and Caucasian, while Corded Ware has more Eastern Hunter GatherersYamnaya did not speak PIE
>>16541249And CWC came from?
>>16541271>The Germanic could also be from CWC->Battle Axe, not necessarily from BeakersMore likely it was both. First wave of CWC became Battle Axe Culture. The next two waves were more Bell Beaker-related. This was essentially proven in the McColl paper from a few months ago.
>>16541280>Yamnaya did not speak PIENo, I'm not saying that. I'm saying Yamnaya probably spoke some variation of PSIE (Proto-Surviving-Indo-European, and yes, that's a real term), which is the ancestor to all the later branches with exception of Anatolian and Tocharian who diverged first.
>>16541291Possibly a common ancestor with Yamnaya. Maybe that's more what you're looking for. They were two distinct groups thoughever.
>Were the people of the Sredni Stog culture horse riders? Without bit wear or some other pathology associated with riding we cannot be certain. Objects from Dereivka tentatively identified as antler cheekpieces for bits could have had other functions. One way to approach this question is to ask if the steppe societies of the Late Eneolithic behaved like horseback riders. It looks to me like they did. Increased mobility (implied by smaller cemeteries), more long-distance trade, increased prestige and power for prominent individuals, status weapons appearing in graves, and heightened warfare against settled agricultural communities are all things we would expect to occur after horseback riding started, and we see them most clearly in cemeteries of the Suvorovo-Novodanilovka type.
>>16541319Yes.Khvalynsk were the original knights
>>16541326No.Yamnaya
>>16541339More like Yamgaya lmao
>>16541339NahOld information
>>16541102Proven wrong by DNA they're a dead end with their farmer tribal settlements genocided by Yamnaya migrants
>>16541102Oh, i forgot to say;I won, againAmong the things publicly available:>Serednii Stih is the main Proto-Yamna group of the Eneolithic North Pontic steppe and has been hypothesized to be ancestral to Yamna based on archaeological analysis [2]. The similarity in genetic ancestry between a Serednii Stih individual from the Deriivka II site and Yamna individuals from Samara was previously reported [53].
Who was more tall and handsome between Yamnaya and CWC? Which one had cooler swords, axes, etc? Has anyone asked these very important questions?
>>16540866What are you talking about, brown monkey?Sredny was a huge EHG orc, they did not engage in agriculture, but were perhaps the very first pastoralists of eastern Europe.
I WILL ASK AGAIN:WHO IS THE PIE????SS? Yamnaya???? Or even Khvalynsk??
>>16541549their skulls were also huge.
>>16541318At least you gave me honest answer, thanks. It's strange for me, I've read for years that CWC is the children of Yamnaya and Globular Amphora together. Where did you read they had different ancestries?
>>16541549>> Sredni Stog skull types also exhibited new features. The DDII population was a single and homogeneous type, with a very broad and thick-boned face of proto-European configuration. The Sredni Stog populations included people with a more gracile bone structure and medium-width faces who showed the greatest statistical similarity to the Khvalynsk population.gracile skulls, you mongolian.you have two options; they either had CHG influence or practiced a bit of farming.>>16541339Yamnaya had none of that.The first domestic horses are synthasha. The closest thing to yamnaya horses ever found is a yamnaya with crushed balls.Their burials are poor and primitive, their pottery is inverted, they did not have carts, etc.They were so lame that synthasha CWC dusted them off and then built arkaim from the dust of their bones.
>>16541586Papers the last three years mostly, that's when I got more into IE studies. The two groups apparently antagonized each other somewhat and had significant enough distinctions in material culture and genes, Yamnaya being older by a few centuries officially. Also another difference is that CWC had been apparently intermarrying with GAC mostly peacefully for quite some time, long before expanding west. I don't think that was the case with Yamnaya and EEF groups, at least there is evidence of outright conquest in some groups like Cucuteni–Trypillia. CWC is more interesting to me because of the likely scenario is that they or their descendants domesticated the horse, or more accurately they perfected horse domestication first. This allowed their greater impact on the world.
>>16541586>>16541586>>16539555No exactly
>>16541625Insults are not arguments, baby.Why am I retarded? That wasn't an argument at all.summarize this in a few lines without using insults.
>>16541638Guess that was mean for the anon above me.
>>16541616>The closest thing to yamnaya horses ever found is a yamnaya with crushed ballsFThat's unfortunate.
The sredni stog is from Davidski.SS: PIE and davidski: pre-PIE. the khvalynsk is from some Russian (literally orcs)match the sample IDs from Anthony's article.
>>16541304>>16541045the SS were massacred by the Yamnaya, why so much love for the SS?the SS were shepherds until one day Yamnaya arrived in their territory and spoke;"you can never stop the Nortenos from bang and strangle"
>>16541616Sintashta is about 800 years younger than Yamnaya. According to Anthony Sintashta developed from Yamnaya -> Catacomb -> Poltavka.
>>16541616they were mainly pastoralists.>you mongolian.I'm whiter than you.
>>16541625the horse was domesticated quite late, and was probably introduced with the expansion of the Srubnaya/Proto-aryans.
>>16541761I think it more implies a long evolution of trying to advance mobility, similar to the process of metallurgy improving and trade networks constantly breaking down and having to be reeatablished. Horse riding has been implied in much older IE cultures. One CWC-descended group found answers that other IE groups hadn't yet.
>>16541761Stupid. There is evidence of horse domestication over a thousand years before Srubnaya.
>>16541846Sintashta, you fool
Serednii Stih was a multicultural mutt society composed of three different populations. The PIE Steppe Eneolithic elite, the mixed commoners, and the Ukraine_N slaves who were dying out.
>>16541949>>16541846Sintashta is a direct descendant of Srubnaya after its crossbreeding with EEF somewhere in Eastern Europe.Srubnaya Ydna(z93) began to aggressively expand from the Pontic-Caspian steppe into central Asia just after the domestication of the horse in ≈2000–1800 BC.>>16541799at the time of domestication, CWC horses had already filled the whole of central Europe, the Yamnaya was killed, only Srubnaya lived in the steppe (and the horse was domesticated in the steppe).
>>16541993CWC didn't have any horses and there were none in central Europe.
>>16541993>>16541993We want your sourcesThe horse was only domesticated in the 1800s with the Sintashta, the Srubnaya being their ancestors or not is irrelevant.The horse was domesticated and used for riding only in the 1800s.not before that.even in his 2000 fanfic, this is very late.
Who were the PIE? SS or someone else
>>16542006Yes>>16542017what sources do you need?Sintashta is a later descendant of Srubnaya and they already used war chariots, however Sintashta did not live in the region where the horse was domesticated (Volga-Don steppe), it lived in the Southern Urals and Central Asia.
>>16542029Steppe Eneolithic. SS and Yamnaya were their descendants.
>>16541993>>16541799There are some WSHG outliers between Sintashta. But culturally Sintashta was nothing like Corded Ware.Cordeds had no carriages, metallurgy, or cities.Different peoples >>16542029The SS were the real PIE.Yamnaya was just a branche
>>16541993>at the time of domestication, CWC horses had already filled the whole of central EuropeSo they were an inferior breed of horse, or is this just anachronism that you haven't worked out? As >>16542006Said and they kept reverting to stone tools and weapons frequently that far west. Are you ESL by chance? The way I figure it is that domesticated horses existed quite far back, but they weren't of exceptional breeding. This Shintasta group or someone like them found a pattern of selective breeding that was superior, so much so that those lines were bred to all others with potential. This in turn improved the trade networks. Many of the more sea-faring groups also improved trade and allowed the constant exchange of goods for copper and tin eventually until about 1000 BC. But this took like 1000+ years to achieve, from 3000-2000 BC of even later. But it led to a uniquely materially rich Europe, due to all of these factors coming together.
>>16542068>Cordeds had no carriages, metallurgyIirc EEF had carts and carriages. And they had metals, but the trade networks broke down frequently and they often reverted to mesolithic tier technology until Bell Beaker times basically.
So let me get this straight.Some recent haploautism research paper has BTFO the so-called "Southern Arc" hypothesis.That's not surprising to me, and I don't even follow this subject any more. I thought it was hilarious to see the legions of coping midwits jumping on the Lazardis pet-theory bandwagon a few years back.Anyone who discounts any of the areas around the Black Sea is huffing paint, it's clearly the locus point for PIE expansion no matter how you cut it. Frankly the reason I'm disinterested in this subject now is because after years of reading and studying archaeogenetics I suspect our technology is STILL too low resolution, our datasets are painfully limited and subject to survivorship bias, and our theories are absolutely hamstrung by archaic presuppositions from entirely different fields.It's only a matter of time before we find another ANE and have to redo everything again. I can remember a time when people said "There are no lost races, the genetics prove it. Stop being racist." But then we found ANE, Denisova, unknown archaic African ghost hominin, etc.
>>16542062>YesFinally acting like a real personHorses= late IE.
>>16542087Retard.
>>16542089>Horses= late IE.this information has long been confirmed.The Repin–Yamnaya horizon probably used large ox-drawn carts, but they did not have horses.
>>16542069your large and useless text is based on guesswork.what is irrelevant, I will write it for you to understand;Horses are descendants of Syntashta, Yamnaya, Corded Ware and their branches until late Sintashta did not have horses for use.and if they did, they were useless and small. to the point that animal abuse would be justified.Herodotus himself comments on these useless horsesdid you get it??????
>>16542087What is your point???Jesus...
>>16542108yes you retard.That's what I've always been saying here, unlike some who use assumptions.Do you want a prize for obviousness?
>>16542112No. And your English is terrible.
>>16542119>>16542107*HAVE SEX*triggered Lizardis fanboys detected*HAVE SEX*
>>16542087Nope. Lazaridis wrote this paper and it's in agreement with Southern Arc.
>>16542131translation: I lost it and I'm going to talk about spelling.your barbarian language is useless and does not even merit a simple admiration
>>16542133reeeeeeeeeeeee
>>16542151You are like a caricature of tweaking eurovision DJs. Nothing you say is remotely coherent in English. But it's entertaining, please continue.
>>16542127Better suck the donkey's dick.
>>16542133Why would Lazaridis team be triggered? He wrote this paper that's in agreement with Southern Arc.
>>16542174>>16542174How does it feel to lose to an illiterate in yoyr barbaric and disgusting language? It hurts a lot, isn't it? your worm
Lazaridis won! Again!
>>16542193Lose what? You just said>Horses are descendants of Syntashta, Yamnaya, Corded Ware and their branches until late Sintashta did not have horses for useTotally incoherent. Absurd even. English isn't my first language but I have the courtesy to not spout words in random order like a fucking idiot on an English forum.
>>16542216Lazaridis is a billionaire, archaeologist, and a geneticist? It's over.
>>16542225still talking about language you bastard?do you just have this to say?Either way, I DARE you to prove me wrong ;).
>>16542146So you are a triggered Lizardis fanboy, interesting.>Nope.But you just proved me right.>>16542187>this paper that's in agreement with Southern Arcit really isn't though, this summary image from the abstract describes *southward* migration of PIAwhereas the southern arc hypothesis considers PIA to have migrated north instead>They argue that genetic evidence from the 'Southern Arc', an area which includes Anatolia, North Mesopotamia, Western Iran, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and the Caucasus, allows the possibility of a West Asian homeland for the Proto-Indo-European language.>In this view, Proto-Indo-European emerged in the southern arc, and was brought to Anatolia when Caucasus/Levantine-related ancestry flowed into Anatolia after the Neolithic, separating the Proto-Anatolian language from the rest of the Indo-European languages. They propose that subsequent migrations from the southern arc brought Proto-Indo-European to the steppes.[note 15]
>>16542254>>16542254Explain this image to me.my brother said that it is done by a geneticist called micha bell and that her "results" were on the OFN hypothesis.then?
>>16542247Mother bitch! You prove wrong wordhorse from Yamnaya, sredny all :) >how does it feel having to read shit like this
>>16542274>The origin of Indo-Anatolian and Indo-European languages.Genetic reconstruction of the ancestry of Pontic-Caspian steppe and West Asian populations points to the North Caucasus-Lower Volga area as the homeland of Indo-Anatolian languages and to the Serednii Stih archaeological culture of the Dnipro-Don area as the homeland of Indo-European languages. The Caucasus-Lower Volga people had diverse distal roots, estimated using the qpAdm software on the left barplot, as Caucasus hunter-gatherer (purple), Central Asian (red), Eastern hunter-gatherer (pink), and West Asian Neolithic (green). Caucasus-Lower Volga expansions, estimated using qpAdm on the right barplot as disseminated Caucasus Neolithic (blue)-Lower Volga Eneolithic (orange) proximal ancestries, mixing with the inhabitants of the North Pontic region (yellow), Volga region (yellow), and West Asia (green).I don't see any "micha bell" credited in the paper.
>>16542290Are you going to prove me wrong or not?
>>16542254They went over all of this in the study, brainlet. I'll spoonfeed you since you couldn't comprehend it.Southern Arc ancestry in the steppe:>This ancestry was later shown to be of rather Anatolian-Levantine-Mesopotamian origin, and to be mediated not from Europe but from the Caucasus neighbors south of the steppe.6 Such ancestry must have been added following the expansion of Neolithic farmers into the Caucasus, introduced thence into the steppe as a later exogenous element, distinct from the earlier CHG-related one. PIA migrating north:>Settlements at Meshoko and Svobodnoe, dated 4466-3810 BCE,42 provide a temporally, geographically, and archaeologically plausible source, as they exhibit exchanges of exotic stone, copper, and stone mace heads with Volga Cline sites, setting the context for the expansion of Aknashen-like ancestry northward
>>16542337>Southern Arc ancestry in the steppe:you completely left out the fact that this ancestry is associated with FARMERS to the immediate WEST of Yamnayaread, CT culturethere's no way that wasn't deliberate, suck a dick"Third, it was discovered that the Yamnaya had not only CHG-related, but also Anatolian Neolithic ancestry, absent in the early known steppe inhabitants, and derived from European farmer neighbors west of the steppe5. This ancestry was later shown to be of rather Anatolian-Levantine-Mesopotamian origin..."This paragraph is about Levantine ancestry in western Ukrainian *farmers* that found it's way into Yamna through intermarriage and trade with the Cucuteni.
>>16542379You are completely retarded. They are talking about rather Anatolian-Levantine-Mesopotamian ancestry that came to the steppe from the Caucasus and *not* from CT.
>>16542337>PIA migrating north:The figure I already posted describes PIA migrating *south*. It's right there, and you're just pretending it doesn't exist.As for your irrelevant selection, here's the conclusion of that paragraph."Thus, in the north Caucasus there lived, side by side, both “high steppe” ancestry people genetically close to the Lower Volga Berezhnovka population (individuals at Progress-2 and Vonyuchka-1), as well as “low steppe” ancestry people in which the Lower Volga ancestry had been diluted by the greater contribution of the (Aknashen-related) Caucasus Neolithic."
>>16542400You're basically just a shill.>Anatolian-Levantine-Mesopotamian ancestry that came to the steppe from the Caucasus and *not* from CTREAD"derived from European farmer neighbors west of the steppe"DERIVED FROM EUROPEAN FARMER NEIGHBORS WEST OF THE STEPPETHAT MEANS ITS CUCUTENI
>>16542417>The figure I already posted describes PIA It does not show any migration you delusional moron.>as well as “low steppe” ancestry people in which the Lower Volga ancestry had been diluted by the greater contribution of the (Aknashen-related) Caucasus Neolithic.Read this part carefully.>and to be mediated not from Europe but from the Caucasus neighbors south of the steppeWhat part of "not from Europe" do you not understand, retard?
>>16542312What's there to prove nigga? You've just said a bunch of incoherent shit and insulted others for their speculation. Speculation is what you seem to be doing as well. There's no harm in that but you've been passive-aggressive about it. Quite gay desu.
>>16542446>It does not show any migration you delusional moron."Migrations to the west (3) and south (4) ca. 4400-4000 BCE split PIA into the PIE languages and PA languages."It literally says that.You see those numbers in the boxes? They are used to denote migratory influence.
>>16539522Do you believe in the Oera Linda Book?
>>16542510That's text you moron it's not part of the graph. The study said the Caucasus Neolithic admixed with hunter-gatherers population in the North Caucasus and traces the language to them and later they spread out from the North Caucasus region to the west.
>>16542546>That's text you moron it's not part of the graph.The text literally explains what the graph represents. This is an extreme form of cope.>in the North Caucasus You mean the Volga, ofc.
>>16539489>>16540879The Lazaridis model is essentially Remontnoye+Middle Don (GK) for core Yamnaya and SS. Remontnoye is Berezhnovka/Progress mixed with Aknashen or Maikop.Some of the models in the supplement are confusing at first, because they are derivative or anachronistic.They can model SS as core Yamnaya+more Dnipro cline ancestry.They can model core Yamnaya as SS+Remontnoye.They model it anachronistically because they think something like core Yamnaya has existed since 4000BC, perhaps even within Sredni Stog.See their PCA.to visualize the clines.>>16541665One of the leaked Khvalynsk samples should overlap with Csongrad and Giurgiulesti on the PCA.RUS_Khvalynsk_En:I6739,0.120652,0.05687,0.038089,0.135661,-0.052933,0.054384,0.000235,-0.014307,-0.060948,-0.093305,0.006171,-0.005545,-0.004757,-0.04225,0.039087,0.019491,-0.003129,-0.001394,0.002137,0.017258,-0.013227,-0.002226,0.01442,0.005302,0.002155
>>16542537I believe it was a legit headcanon written down by a nonce of the era,- who had the right hunch but no real data other than linguistic gut feeling.Saying I believe in it is the same as saying I believe in /x/. It's simply the compiled canon of some random uneducated old timey Q-conspiracy village.Schizoposting and high effort guesswork isn't limited to the era of the Internet.
>>16542428How did they get this EEF ancestry?is high?
>>16542565>The text literally explains what the graphNo, the text adds onto the graph. In fact the full text says before they migrated west they came from the south. But you'll try to ignore that too.>You mean the Volga, ofc.Extreme cope. Steppe Eneolithic sites are in the Northern Caucasus.
>>16542570To summarize:Anachronistic errors and a lot of doubts
>>16542637>In fact the full text says before they migrated west they came from the south. The summary image I posted says ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about PIA coming from the south.In fact, it says that the PIA homeland was (1 and environs). And that it spread south from there. You have been exposed.Cope and seethe. Have sex.Touch grass.
>>16542631Yamna and CT cultures cooexisted and engaged in trade for centuries with each other before the CT culture collapsed and due to deforestation and climate change related crop failures.Because the steppe pastoralists weren't totally reliant on agriculture, they survived the famine and expanded.
