Hang on. How do they know what date the etchings into the stone were made?
a) radiometric datingb) analysis of the patinac) epigraphic analysisd) content and stylistic analysis
>>16801359That’s terracotta, retard…
>>16801359It's funny that you mentioned this because according to Russell Gmirkin, the Tel Dan inscription has the signs of a forgery, because the writing artificially stops short of breaks in the rock and occasionally continues beyond the breakage. In other words, somebody took a stone slab, broke it into pieces, and then tried to put natural looking inscriptions on it, but they kept carving too short or too far at the breakage lines. They should have made the inscriptions first and then broke the slab. Perhaps that would have made it more difficult to control the content of the fragments though.https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/09018320210000425
>>16801396I'm no expert but it really doesn't look like that to me.But yeah, several people have accused it of being a forgery.
>>16801378You can date the stone. You can't date the carvings though. You lying deceitful bitch.
>>16801448I literally gave you 4 ways to date the carvings.
>>16801425The problem is that nobody has been given access to it in order to verify Gmirkin's observations. I don't think the people who own it want it to be scrutinized.There's quite a few people who desperately want the smallest historical confirmation of ANY biblical narrative. The cultural legacy of the Old Testament is a source of pride in Israel. There are many people who would become irrationally upset if David was debunked as a historical person.It's also worth mentioning that even if it's real, it has alternative interpretations where it doesn't support the historicity of David at all.
>>16801475I mean the rock is right there for anyone to see.
>>16801477Inside a glass case. If someone wants to take Gmirkin seriously, they need real, close-up access to it and expertise
>>16801378>a) radiometric dating>b) analysis of the patina>c) epigraphic analysis>d) content and stylistic analysisThese can all easily be faked.
>>16801498Why aren't you rich, then?
>>16801396>>16801425Whats the consensus on it? Because if you are gonna go cherry picking academics you can probably get any opinion you want.
>>16801509Because you need to have the right background in order to pass your fake shit off.
>>16801516The consensus is that nobody wanted to take the claims seriously and nobody has been given access to it for this type of analysis.All Gmirkin did was point out reasons for why a careful analysis was needed, but at the time he could not get closer than the glass enclosure would allow.
>>16801425
>>16801820This is a big deal but nobody gives a fuck because jews and Christians eat it up. They need King David to be real. It's a nice sideshow attraction.
>>16801931I fully agree. It's irritating from an actual historical view because king David supposedly rises up during the Bronze Age Collapse, when every other civilization is in free fall and only Egypt really survives with any cultural continuity. There's no way two superpower could rise up in the most tumultuous fulcrum of the region, where everybody is invading into.
>>16801564Why cant they just do some 8k scan at least and let academics have a go at the files
>>16801564>nobody has been given access to it for this type of analysis>>16801958>Why cant they just do some 8k scan at least and let academics have a go at the filesWhy indeed.
>>16801983dead sea scrolls are damaging to jews and the mainstream christian narrative because of what they containboth the jewish religious authority and the catholic authority would like very much for them to be forgeries or denounced as forgeries
>>16802003This is blatantly false. The Israeli authorities forked over the DSS over to the Catholic church. The Vatican spent most of the 80s fixing them up, doctoring them, and handing them back over. Notice when the Israelis said they had discovered them they suggested they could go back to around 500-600 BC making them the oldest Biblical sources in the world. After the Vatican got finished approving and modifying them the date pushed back to a few decades after the Septuagint was written, making the Catholics the oldest Biblical tradition in the world. They're all fakes to begin with so it does not matter.
>>16802010The original archaeological find was authenticated and the contents authenticated. I suspect that subversive jews or christians created forgeries to discredit the entire find. The original cache of material was authentic but forgeries were created and sold off to willing buyers who were willing to pay high prices for supposed relics. you can read further here about the scrolls from a reputable source:https://www.britannica.com/topic/Dead-Sea-Scrollscan read further here about the forgeries here (pic snipped from article):https://www.cnn.com/2020/03/15/us/bible-museum-dead-sea-scrolls/index.html
>>16802003>the dead sea scrolls contain things that damaged jews and christians!!!Such as?
>>16802103>I suspect that subversive jews or christians created forgeries to discredit the entire find.The frauds were produced by Kando Jr. The originals were produced (found? lol) by Kando Sr. Do the math there. My reputable sources are the half dozen men who already searched the area a century before and found nothing, and knew they were wasting their time to begin with.
>>16801983>>16802010I think you're just confused. The core collection of DSS held in Israel has never been called fake or put under suspicion. It's just after the initial collection was found, certain untrustworthy individuals kept "finding" more and selling them. Many of these secondary scrolls ended up in private collections. None were kept with the main collection. Kipp Davis talks about this on YouTube.
>>16802115>Such as?Such as the story in Enoch about the chosen race being chosen specifically because they are descendants of the fallen angels, etc. The scripture in question has always been preserved continuously by the Ethiopian church, but the dead sea scrolls (the authentic ones) verify that the story is not a later fabrication.
>>16802116pic related is a snip from the article I linked before. The forgeries were created later to mimic the originals so they could be sold for obscene profits. But I believe the real motive was to try and discredit the entire original and real collection because of the damaging nature of their content.>>16802123exactly
>>16802123>The core collection of DSS held in Israel has never been called fake or put under suspicion.The forgeries that were exposed were lent directly by Israeli authorities. They had been "authenticated" a decade before their lending to the fundamentalist museum. They just never expected American fundamentalists to yield to scientific scrutiny.
>>16802131You need to re-read the Book of Enoch dumbass. The Nephilim are the bad guys, not the chosen good guys. And they all got wiped out in the Flood. This is perfectly compatible with mainstream Christianity and Judaism.
>>16802158>The forgeries that were exposed were lent directly by Israeli authorities.no they weren't. they were purchased by a rich guy from private sellers
>>16802172The suggestion is that Noah was of that angelic bloodline and that all subsequent descendants of that line are traced to them. Noah being preserved because he was perfect, unlike the rest of them who did not do right with what they were given.
>>16802173These were not the sentiments of the time and only now do I realize I should have clung onto all of those old articles. This is not the information that was put out at the time. The official website restates the same, but a myriad of articles from 2017-2020 all said otherwise.
>>16802158>The forgeries that were exposed were lent directly by Israeli authorities. They had been "authenticated" a decade before their lending to the fundamentalist museum.The fake scrolls I am aware of were private transactions between individuals who were not associated with the original archaeological find.Did someone actually authenticate them? If Israeli authorities eventually obtained them, they were still produced via a private transaction first (a scam). Regardless, these are not associated with the original archaeological find. You need to understand this. The same guy responsible for discovering these fakes attests to the authenticity of the original ones.https://archive.is/AszGK>The new findings don’t cast doubt on the 100,000 real Dead Sea Scroll fragments, most of which lie in the Shrine of the Book, part of the Israel Museum, Jerusalem. However, the report’s findings raise grave questions about the “post-2002” Dead Sea Scroll fragments, a group of some 70 snippets of biblical text that entered the antiquities market in the 2000s. Even before the new report, some scholars believed that most to all of the post-2002 fragments were modern fakes.
>>16802209>Did someone actually authenticate them?So the answer to this is no.>If Israeli authorities eventually obtained them,And this never happened.
>>16802205>>16802173So for example, Art.news and NatGeo said this:>"“Once one or two of the fragments were fake, you know all of them probably are, because they come from the same sources, and they look basically the same,” Årstein Justnes, an antiquity researcher at Norway’s University of Agder, told National Geographic"This is directly opposite of the case we see now, where there were supposedly multiple sellers. The story is wildly inconsistent. I distinctly remember one article saying that the Israeli authorities were embarrassed by having lent them out and a few months later they started claiming this was part of some unrelated post 2002 group that was not really tested. They're clearly distancing themselves in an active campaign.
>>16802209>The same guy responsible for discovering these fakes attests to the authenticity of the original ones.He is in no position to do so, given that he has not studied them. Even so, expeditions to the caves were already done previously and nothing was found. The caves have been flooded multiple times over the last two thousand years. They could not have held up in those conditions. The cave with the original seven full length scrolls was completely flooded at twice during the medieval period.
>>16802221He has studied them though! He went there in person (maybe with his PhD advisor?)
>>16802215Your purpose is simply to create the impression that there is reasonable cause to suspect all dead sea scrolls are fake, create the illusion there is a debate about it. I get it, and you will succeed with morons and that will be enough if you keep at it. I find this sort of manipulative game play fascinating, what is your angle?
>>16802234>The Israeli government's entire existence is predicated on the veracity of the dead sea scrollsit isn't, but why do you think it is?
>>16802229Not sure we're talking about the same person.>>16802231I'm going to rewrite this comment:Your purpose is to suggest they are realistic to give a sense of historical reasoning for the Israeli state existing. They need historical artifacts otherwise the genocide they're committing would be understood even among themselves to be psychotic. Their entire system would break apart and tens of millions would lose their faith overnight. There is no debate however. They are all universally fakes. I don't make money from this. I don't get to genocide people and take their land for this. The people who purport the Dead Sea Scrolls to be real do gain those benefits. I'm clearly only after the truth.
>>16802240>it isn't, but why do you think it is?Jews aren't ancient, therefore the geopolitical powergrabbing of rabbis is frivolous bloodmongering.
>>16802249The dead sea scrolls have not one thing to do with Israel existing and even if they were all forgeries, which they are not, then that still would not alter in one iota anything to do with the geopolitical circumstances of the region.
>>16802255>Jews aren't ancientBut they are. They are a historically attested iron age people. Even if their connections to earlier Canaanite civilizations is tenuous or even unprovable, we know from various historical and archaeological sources that they lived in Palestine/Judea 2000 years ago as an established kingdom at the very least, which more than qualifies for "ancient" designation. Proving whether modern Jews are related to those historically attested Jews is, however, more thorny. The cultural traditions of the Jewish diaspora create an unbroken link back to Judea, but blood is a different story.
>>16802249Kipp Davis discovered the Museum of the Bible scrolls were fake, and he attests to the authenticity of the original DSS.He has studied the DSS in person.He continues to study DSS on a regular basis as part of his work.His job literally involves studying high resolution scans of DSS and occasionally going to see them in person, yet he isn't in a position to evaluate their authenticity??What is so hard to understand about this? There's ~100,000 of the original scrolls and ~70 fakes from decades later. Where is the payoff for these 100,000 scrolls? This isn't some low effort scam. Nobody got rich off the original scrolls, yet you'd need a TEAM of forgers to make them. Did such a team ever get their payday? No.The motivations and effort involved in the later 70 fragments are clear. One guy can do that and make money. (In fact, we know the scam worked and he made money!)
