There, I won WW2.But no, Italy and Japan had to be fucking retards and drag Africa and America into this as if fighting vast Russia wasn't enough.Axis? More like retardxis.
>>16813054Japan tried to challenge soviets prewar and got their shit pushed in at a border conflict. That is the reason why they decided against it. Soviets also kept some of the better divisions in the far east, just in case. Even if Japan attacks Russia, they get Vladivostok, then get bogged down with impossibility of logistics moving westward. Lendlease is still pushed, now taking a bit longer going through Murmansk. Italy participated in Eastern front with a total of 450k troops. They had their own problems and why would they commit their entire force if they were not standing to gain anything from it anyway. From the moment germans attacked USSR, their fate was sealed and nothing could have changed it. Quantity is quality.
>>16813054>Japan tried to challenge soviets prewar and got their shit pushed in at a border conflict.Month and year?
>>16813054Shitalians are niggers in modern warfareIf they simply didn't bring americans in, japan and nazis would've raped russians
America is dabbing on Russia rn by launching ATACMS at their beach towns. I say that America does it the best.
>>16813054Lake Khasan and Khalkin Gol mindbroke the Japanese so hard it made them believe they stood no chance against the Red Army.
>>16813664The real answer probably has to do with climate conditions and material gain. It was the Anglos that came beating down Japan's door to open up trade against their will and again sanctioned them when they needed trade. Rubber and softer metals in the south along with oil were probably more interesting than the mild amount of oil to their immediate north. Still, Japan probably should have focused in on the USSR.
>>16813098Yes but the Soviets were already at war with the Axis by Pearl Harbor (Barbarossa began early the same year in the summer), so why not just join their allies and pincer the Soviets?It's not like the Soviets are going to not aid the Chinese to destroy all of the Japanese mainland holdings after being pulled into the war.
>>16813098>That is the reason why they decided against it.No. It's because Germany betrayed Japan by signing a non-agression pact with the USSR. Japan agreed on a ceasefire a few days after that.
>>16813054The problem with the Axis was each major member had different geopolitical interests. For Germany, it was securing land/resources in the East and a buffer against Britain in the West. For Italy, it was expanding their empire throughout the Mediterranean because Ancient Roman memes. For Japan, it was securing resources and naval bases in the Pacific. This meant each had different primary adversaries, while Germany's aligned enough with Italy's to help them they obviously had to devote most of their resources to fighting Russia and Britain. Japan meanwhile had no interest in a fruitless slog through Siberia to help a distant ally who would never be able to send aid in return.
>>16813098Soviets were only able to fight off the germs from taking Moscow because of neutrality pact with Japan. So they recalled alot of troops from far east, originally intended for defending from Japan.Khalkin gol was a skirmish, and Japan was not at their full strength. and USSR wasn't at war in Europe yet.
>>16813685This. Hitler was talking all about anti commie alliance and yet he allied with USSR against anticommie Poland.
>>16813619>>16813701Japan used human wave attacks against numerically inferior Russians in the Russo-Japanese war at the land battles of Port Arthur and Nanshan.The Russians slaughtered the Japanese.Japan was only saved from collapse by the Jew Jacob Schiff giving them emergency loans because Jews hated Russia for antisemitic pogroms, and the British built Meiji fleet at Tsushima which Japan financed by exporting karayukisan prostitutes to foreign non-Japanese men.Schiff and other Jews lobbied Theodore Roosevelt to support Japan.
>>16813574Battles of Khalkhin Gol, May-September 1939
>>168130541941+ USSR smokes the IJA in a land war. The japs were already feeling the pinch from sanctions limiting their campaigns in China and the Indian Ocean and you want them to land an expeditionary force in Russia?
>>16813701>Japan was not at their full strengthIn what ways would you say the IJA of summer 1941 had improved from the force they had in summer 1939? For the Russians you can say they had vastly improved their mechanized forces and anti tank capabilities.
>>16813619>>16813701>>16813928The Japanese lost more dead than the Russians at Port Arthur and Nanshan. The commanding officer ordered the Russians to retreat for no reason at Nanshan after mauling the Japanese Japanese soldiers climbed in their own comrades bodies when charging Russian machine guns in trenches at Port Arthur in massive human wave attacks.Japan also used human wave attacks at trenches in the battle of Beicang and lost more dead than their enemy
>>16813054Why didn’t American and Uk invade Russia too instead of invading Japan, Germany, and Italy?
>>16813054>still debating things which have been settled since the 2010sCome on, /his/.
>>16813098>from the moment germans attacked USSRit was sealed from before that, that's why they attacked
India solos them, even without karna's arrows
>>16813054So let's say they win? Now Japan has less forces in China and the pacific. Italy the med has been lost as Italy and Germany couldn't send the necessary forces. And now when the US enters. It will be far easier for it to move its forces.
>>16813054You’re pretty mentally ill, so there’s no real possible discussion to be had with you.
>>16813700>expanding their empire throughout the Mediterranean because Ancient Roman memesYou have s Childlike understanding of history. You’re probably underage. In reality, from the country’s inception, Italy had always wanted to expand in the Mediterranean. It was the natural and logical place for Italian expansion to take place. Expanding into the Balkans, North Africa, and Turkey were part of Italian foreign policy since the 1880s. Italy fought several wars to take territory in these areas. All of this existed long before Mussolini. It wasn’t “the Roman Empire”, it was simple economics and geography.
>>16813054There's a fuckton of things the Axis could've done differently that would increase their winning chances. JAPAN:>don't attack China>don't attack Russia when you're clearly not ready yet (Khalkhin Gol)>anticipate US' oil embargo --> develop wood-gas facilities for land transportation and stockpile more oil>go with Hokushin-ron (attack on Russia), instead of Nanshin-ron (what they did IRL)>officially support the nationalists in China (not to anger the Americans), but secretly supply the commies with weapons, so they all kill each other, with a slight communist advantage>when Russia is conquered (together with Germany, Italy and possibly Poland [that will come up later], send the battle-hardened army from Siberia to China, to destroy the communists, who barely won, with your helpThere you, you have the Russian far east and China in your control. Who knows, maybe they could've even avoided the oil embargo, since the Americans were seething about the japanese conquests of western colonies, but would probably have no problem with the fighting the USSR.GERMANY:>do everything you can to sway Poland on your side >if this doesn't work, ignore them and attack France first (I made a whole thread about this aspect: >>16801175 )>build up logistical facilities more and wood-gas tech (same as Japan)>maybe even play around with producing methanol from wood pyrolysis (I'm not an expert, but apparently it can be done quite easily)POLAND>don't fall for the fairy tales of British assurances and don't go against 2 huge empires that you BORDER>either ally yourself with the Axis, or sign a neautrality pact with them>when France is conquered, join the Axis and go against Russia And here you go, the Axis wins WWII, and we live in a better world with lesser jewish power in Europe, and unpixelated porn in Japan.
>>16813054>italy doing anythingyou really want the guys who had to be bailed out against fucking greece helping you against russia
>>16815242What is your age?
>just burn wood lmao
>>16815242You cant say dont attack china retard. Thats like telling hitler to not attack france or reunite with austria. Its the whole fucking party. Japan is in WW2 to maintain its empire of which the jewel is china, japan literally isnt in WW2 without its invasion of china. You might as well just say Britain won the revolutionary war, its more realistic than your dumb shit,
>>16815242And I didn't mention the obvious things like a way more closer cooperation in technology sharing, geopolitical movements and intelligence.
>>16813054nothe only reasonable way to stop them was to stop the lend lease. look at how the Ukraine is able to hold off Russia right now, endless supplies from from the west.
>There, I won WW2.
>>16815281>don't attack ChinaHow are you going to convince the Army not to go through with the Mukden Incident then dumbfuck. You keep on harping on about not invading China but you keep on forgetting about the Mukden Incident and the creation of Manchukuo.
16815281
>>16815281Why you are offended by my >>16815255 question?
>>16815299They could still go with creating Manchukuo. Just don't escalate beyond that, it's not necessary at this point. And next time add some more insults, it will make you sound even more dominant.
>>16815317You gave the impresion of a typical redditor, who's focusing on talking shit about anyone, whose opinions make them angry. And it's 29, since yesterday.
>>16815325>You gave the impresion of a typical redditor, who's focusing on talking shit about anyone, whose opinions make them angry.Is it common for redditors to ask each other age? Didn't knew that.>And it's 29, since yesterday.Well, then i'm not sure what to tell you. Since you are clearly very sensitive person, it's probably for the best not to tell you anything. Enjoy your stay on 4chan!
>>16815318Your answer already failed one of the basic premises of your fanfic ( don't attack China ) and you're assuming that China would be happy to leave things as it is with the creation of Manchukuo and not be emboldened to go after Japan now that they have a reason to go against them. You're pretty stupud aren't you?
>>16813054Axis just didn't trust each other as much, which is a given since they were all schemers trying to upset some other order.
>>16815327Go ahead, I'm curious what wisdom you can share with me. And also, spare me the passive-aggresive tone, that's how females talk. >>16815333>you're assuming that China would be happy to leave things as it is with the creation of ManchukuoYou do know that "China" was in a state of civil war at the time? The nationalists were fighting the communists, led by Zhedong. Japanese aggression caused them to put the civil war on the side for a couple months and fight the Japs. So by "China", whom do you have in mind? You have no knowledge about the issue and you have zero understanding of how (geo)politics works. You're not worth my time.
>>16815404>Nationalist China gets its shit together and wipes the floor with the CommunistsWhat do you think will happen next sperg-kun.
>>16813054Why didn't Italy join the allies before Barbarossa? Instead they chose to be completely cucked by Hitler's foreign policy. Even if Hitler succeeded they would at best be his vassals in the New Order.
>>16815442Because they tried already back in 1935 with the stresa accord, but the meeting was an absolute disaster since france was indecisive and britain outright hostile towards italy after their invasion of ethiopia. Italy stopped making decisions for themselves after the failed invasion of greece, by the time of barbarossa they were a full fledged puppet
>>16815442Pasta expected a lot of loot as France collapsed. The decision was so rushed that they lost a considerable portion of merchant fleet which was in allied ports when they declared entering the war.
>>16813574lmao kinda showing you have no historical knowledge there my dude."the Soviets invaded Finland? GONNA NEED A SOURCE"
So much talk about Khalkin Gol.Khalkin Gol was a skirmish, not even authorized by the military command. It was also a tactical victory for Japan in terms of material destroyed.If Japan was determent to attack the Soviets, why would this discourage them? It's like saying Finland would be discouraged by the Winter war. They werent.The Japanese plan to attack the USSR was called Kantokuen. It doesnt even mention Khalkin Gol.The debate was entirely strategic. The debate was whether Siberia was simply worth the effort given that Japan was running on oil stockpiles in 1941 due to the embargo. They needed oil and Siberia had none. Their nation, their military, and their empire would collapse for the sake of Hitler.The debate was whether the military could make plans, preparations and execution before the weather turned. The Japanese foreign minister actually met with Ribbentrop in early 1941, and Hitler had ordered not to give them any information on the Barbarossa plans. Hence Japan only found out about the plans on June 22 1941, hence they could only begin planning and preparations on this date. It simply wasnt enough time before mud and winter season begins.The debate was also whether the army or the navy should recieve priority. Japanese was very unimpressed with the army in China since the war was only getting more intensified despite victories. The navy simply had more prestige, more resources and more authority to press their case. Japanese command was very reluctant to authoritze another "endless front".But again, Japan actially made extensive preparations to invade the USSR once they found out about Barbarossa. The nail in the coffin was the allied oil embargo. Khalkin Gol was barely mentioned.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kantokuen
>>16813054Here's how you should actually win WW2Germany and Russia join up their forces and conquer the entire world, isolating the US, and destroying it eventually.Bam, the good guys win. Shrimple as that.
>>16815508Great points. What Japan failed to foresee is the geopolitical aspect. The USSR was a common enemy, in a world war. If they manage to beat Germany, it's only a matter of time when they go after Japan (who was, at least on paper, an ally of Germany). And in that scenario it doesn't matter where the oil is, you're not getting any of it. Had they executed Kantokuen, the probability of beating the Soviets rises dramatically. And if that happens, China is for the taking. If that fails, or the army has enough of fighting, you have Siberia (or just the far east). Better than nothing.
>>16813054By the way, did Italy have any real contributions to the Axis' cause in WWII?
>>16815838Are you asking out of genuine curiosuty or are you just trolling? Because this thread is already a carousel of schizoid rantings and poltard trolling, i think giving you an actual answer would likely be a waste of time
>>16815827You still dont get itIt's not about what they want and dont wantIt's about what they can and cannotThey simply couldnt attack the USSR because once the allied embargo was in place, the entire Japanese society, the entire Japanese military, the entire Japanese empire, was running on stockpiles. Basically, they could only muster enough for one offensive so they have to choose; the southern attack to the Dutch oilfields (and a war with the US), or the northern attack into Siberia. To attack the Soviets would have been committing suicide for the benefit of HitlerThey also simply couldnt attack the USSR because they were given no time to prepare. The time window before mud and winter season was too short. The Germans never informed Japan about Barbarossa, they only found out on June 22 when the Germans invaded. The Germans needed an entire year to plan and prepare for Barbarossa, the Japanese would have had to do it in less than 2 months before its "too late" for the weatherThe failure of Japanese intervention is due to circumstances outside of their control, so it never was a "le stupid Japan should have done this instead of that" argument which is what most anons are debating hereHad they executed Kantokuen, then who is to say the Soviets wouldnt simply just ignore the Japanese front and the let the distance bog them down until stockpiles are depleted, and at that point, millions of Japanese civiians will begin to starve and freeze to death.I guess the best case you can make of this is that the majority of Lend-Lease came through Vladivostok, so with that city captured, it would have severely disrupted US aid to the Soviets. Alternative routes through Iran and the north sea would have to be expandedThe Japanese did aid the Germans greatly even without invasion. The preparations for Kantokuen swelled the Manchurian army to nearly 2 million men, which forced the Soviets to maintain huge armies in Siberia that couldnt commit to the war with Germany
>>16815508The Japanese army was defeated multiple times in China in 1938-1940, at Taierzhuang, First Changsha, West Suiyuan and Kunlun pass.Kunlun pass forced the Japanese into French Indochina which triggered the Allied embargo.
>>16813940>>16813574lmao why are you commies so shit at war on your own territory?
>>16815242>attack France firstA major reason that Germany defeated France was that its army had developed an effective modern war doctrine and the French army hadn't. Invading Poland beforehand gave them an opportunity to test and refine the blitzkrieg against a country with some modern weapons that were mostly French supplied. The German army's performance in France was already astonishingly good even with that experience under their belts. Without it, they would have been testing their military doctrine for the first time against the biggest and best equipped land army in Western Europe.
>>16815999Many historians argue that Hitler in fact felt cheated by the Munich Agreement because he wanted a war with Czechoslovakia, specifically because he wanted to "baptize in blood" the wehrmacht and felt that Czechoslovakia was the best place to do it since the Germans had a very strong case, a moral highground, and outside intervention was very unlikely.In fact, historians argue that Chamberlain called for the Munich conference because he aswell was aware of this, so the Munich Agreement was a manouver to deprive Hitler of an opportunity, while simultaniously giving himself the benefit of being able to paint Hitler as a warmongerer in the future, thus preparing the British public to accept confrontation with Germany by giving Britain the moral highground in the event of war.The Appeasement policy was myth was sold by Churchill after the war in order to create his own cult of personality, basically Churchill wrote in his novel series accusing Chamberlain of simply being naive and stupid for signing the Munich Agreement, and that the world would have been a better place if everyone had just listened to Mr Churchill from the start about confronting Germany already in 1938 because Churchill was always right and knew whats best.In reality however, Chamberlain was a very schrewed politican and understood the reality of the situation, and politically outmanouvered Hitler by avoiding confrontation when Britain wasnt ready, and enabling confrontation when Britain was ready.
>>16815325>29Why are you in 4chan instead of spending time with your wife and kids?
>>16815954I think you're not quite getting the big picture. Japan was embargo'ed, BECAUSE they went after western colonies and continued their war with the Chinese. If they decided to go with Hitler against the USSR, the western colonies would be left alone, and they could tone down their efforts in China (maybe even completely abandon it, for the time), thanks to which there would probably NOT have been an embargo. And with the American oil, Kantokuen could've been executed properly. Well, at least in their assumptions.
>>16816050>Czechoslovakia was the best place to do it since the Germans had a very strong case, a moral highgroundAnd what was that moral highground?
>>16815508>>16815964
>>16813098>Italy participated in Eastern front with a total of 450k troops. They had their own problems and why would they commit their entire force if they were not standing to gain anything from it anyway.Defeating the big baddie would lead to the big gains. It was the war winning condition, you know.
>>16813674>Rubber and softer metals in the south along with oil were probably more interesting than the mild amount of oil to their immediate north.If getting the resources that make warfare possible is one of the objectives of your war... you're not getting anywhere.
>>16816322You're essentially rewriting the entire war at this point. So the question is not longer "why didnt they attack the USSR?". The question is rather "why did they wage war on China"? Simply for the sake of rewriting the entire course of the war so that your attack on the USSR can be made possible, an attack they had no knowledge of until it had actually happened, and you're essentially trying to create a scenario where they are given the right circumstances to attack the USSR even before the Germans themselves had made such plans.You're also putting a heavy emphasis on Indochina being the sole and root factor of the embargo, when in reality it was a continuous act that began already in 1939 when USA forfeit their treaty of commerce with Japan, citing their war in China, and the US embargo in July 1940, before Indochina was invaded. The US embargo dramatically accelerated when Japanese influence did, but it wasnt a triggering factor.You're also omitting that the embargo was a join effort by both the British, the Dutch and the US.Could it have been avoided if Japan simply did not conduct its war in China? Sure. But again, you're completely rewriting the entire war for the sake of shoehorn a potiential situation that only you with hindsight is aware of. It makes very poor discussion.
>>16813928>the British built Meiji fleet at Tsushima which Japan financed by exporting karayukisan prostitutes to foreign non-Japanese men.Damn, couldn't they send some quties to FDR so he lifts the oil embargo?
>>16816487>You're essentially rewriting the entire war at this point.The main point of this thread is exploring different alternative war scenarios, which kind of is rewriting history. >so that your attack on the USSR can be made possible, an attack they had no knowledge of until it had actually happenedSince the very beginning, the USSR was considered the arch-enemy. Everything went south after Ribbentrop-Molotov, where Japan's ally all of a sudden made an alliance with a country that was considered anything but. >You're also putting a heavy emphasis on Indochina being the sole and root factor of the embargoA quote from my comment: "Japan was embargo'ed, BECAUSE they went after western colonies and continued their war with the Chinese.">You're also omitting that the embargo was a join effort by both the British, the Dutch and the US.What of it? You either get embargo'ed or not. The Japs did, the circumstances are irrelevant.
>>16816487You're arguing with a historically illiterate retard in his late 20s who's just assmad that no one is taking his fanfic seriously and the ones that do so are blowing him out of the water. Just cut your losses here and let this thread die.
>>16813706>and yet he allied with USSR against anticommie Poland.Literally poland's own fault.
>>16815993>this is considered an 'astounding defeat" and "giving japan a bloody nose"bahahahaahaaha
>>16816579>The main point of this thread is exploring different alternative war scenarios, which kind of is rewriting history.That depends on the scale. I accept a discussion where we can debate a specific decision such as why Japan didnt attack the USSR and what would have happened if they did. I dont accept a discussion where we can debate the existance of an entire historic era. It's completely pointless and I am honestly bored already. If I want to talk about the fourth Crusade striking Cairo instead of Constantiople, I dont want to talk about the new possible circumstances if we simply remove the existance of Jesus.>Since the very beginning, the USSR was considered the arch-enemy. "Since the very beginning"? What does this even mean? The beginning of time? The beginning of the Japanese nation? Japanese foreign policy does not start and stop with Russia. Encroachment with China and Korea was something that goes back hundreds of years in Japanese history, as was competing over influence with western colonial powers.Japanese government and political culture may have despised communism but then again so did virtually everyone else including the western democratic powers, it did not suddenly dictate their foreign policy and it did not suddenly and completely dictate Japanese foreign policy.>Everything went south after Ribbentrop-Molotov,So again it can be argued that Japans decision not to invade the USSR was overwhelmingly influenced by events outside of their control.>What of it? You either get embargo'ed or not. So it was multiple parties that wanted to limit Japanese influence and expansion. You make it sound like everyone would have been perfectly fine with Japan helping Germany winning the war even if we remove China from the equation.
>>16815242Niggas will play hoi4 once and think they have the decret to change all of human history in 5 simple steps baka
A japanese invasion of Siberia seems like a logistical nightmare, specially considering how strained they where on their other fronts. Italian support wont do shit because, for one, they already sent thousands of men IRL and it did nothing, and Italians in general are either incompetent or inmotivated to participate in the war, plus the african campaign served a purpose in keeping the allies from having a stable foothold in the mediterranean, so just abandoning it was a bad idea.
>>16816714The Africa campaign mainly served at keeping Mussolini in power.The moment allied shells and boots touched Italian soil, Mussolini was out.
> Skip Africa> UK and France does a landing on Sicily from Malta/Tunisia immediadly
>>16816627Yeah, tactically speaking Soviets were able to push back the Japanese and consolidate. And that was pre-reforms after Winter War, when Soviet Military was mostly composed of Civil War era cavalry commanders.
>>16813054There was extremely little cooperation between Japanese and the European Axis. The Emperor "hinted" that he thought attacking Russia via China would have been the best option but the militarists wanted to attack the USA.The Axis was not a wall, just like the 1st World War, it was Germany carrying a bunch of retards.
>>16816618>it is Polands fault they wouldn't give up land to a nation run by a man who backpedled on every treatyLol lmao
>>16813054Russia was under a dictatorship like themselves why attack them?
>>16816677>Encroachment with ChinaJapan lost all of those before the Meiji restoration >>16813928
>>16816322>>16816487Japan was embargoed because they decided in the southern invasion of SEA in 1940.The US, UK and Netherlands knew that if Japan invaded French Indochina, that de facto signaled Japan chose war with the western Allies instead of the Soviets.Japan attempted to sever China's remaining land borders with the Soviets and French in 1940.At the battle of West Suiyuan, Japan aimed to capture Ningxia, Gansu and Qinghai to set up the Huihuiguo puppet state, which would completely sever China's border with the Soviets in Outer Mongolia and Xinjiang.At the battle of Kunlun pass, Japan aimed to sever China's borders with French Indochina.Britain already closed the Burma-China and India-China borders on Japan's request in early 1940.Japan lost both West Suiyuan and Kunlun pass, with the Japanese commanding generals killed.Japan either had to invade French Indochina directly or the Soviet Union directly to sever China's last land borders, and obtain oil since Japan was rapidly running out of oil while fueling its tanks and planes against China even with the Dutch and US selling oil and metal to Japan.Japan would need to consume the entire output of Dutch and UK oilfields in SEA and not just the portions the Dutch and UK sold them, otherwise Japan's mechanised forces woul collapse in China.Japan invaded French Indochina in 1940 after China defeated Japan at Kunlun pass.This publicly signaled to the western Allies that Japan was preparing to seize all of SEA. They imposed the embargo and sent the hull note to give Japan one last chance to avert war.Japan ignored the Hull note and proceeded with the plan.The US knew Japan was going to strike once they rejected the Hull note, but didn't know exactly when.
>>16813054Ukraine is learning the hard way: Don't start a war with Russia.
>>16817326Shit bait.
>>16816677>I dont accept a discussion where we can debate the existance of an entire historic era.Oh, so we all should adjust ourselves to what you accept. >"Since the very beginning"? What does this even mean? The beginning of time? The beginning of the Japanese nation?Are you acting dumb? Or is it really how you think? What could possibly be the beginning when we're discussing the preparations for WWII?>So again it can be argued that Japans decision not to invade the USSR was overwhelmingly influenced by events outside of their control.Not overwhelmingly, but that was a big factor, probably the biggest. Had Hitler not completely ditched the Japs and actually tried to work with them, who knows, maybe he wouldb e able to sway them on his side. Now that I think about it, it's shocking how much Hitler screwed up, diplomatically wise. He wanted to btfo everyone by himself, and it ended the way it did because of that. >You make it sound like everyone would have been perfectly fine with Japan helping Germany winning the war even if we remove China from the equation.Where do these comments come from? In a world war, it's not about being fine with something, it's about what can you do.
>>16816944How about not giving any land to Germany, and at the same time not aligning yourself with Germany's enemies?Geopolitics is a little bit more flexible.
>>16816606on a scale 1-10, how angered are you by his comments?
>>16813054Attacking Russia was pointless.Best WW2 outcome scenario is Hitler and Stalin teaming up against the "democracies" together.
>>16818603>Attacking Russia was pointless.Without Japan's help and with insuficient logistical capabilities? Yes.
>>16818847Its not even about Japan or logistics.Russians and Germans were rather similar and had same enemies. The banker-controlled "democracies" had a lot of resources and territories that Russians and Germans could share.
>>16818234>Oh, so we all should adjust ourselves to what you accept.Let me rephrase it then: Your what-if discussion is retarded and boring so it ends now.>What could possibly be the beginning when we're discussing the preparations for WWII?Because ww2 is rooted in previous conflicts, interests and decisions such as the one in 1894 which is in terms rooted in previous conflicts, inteerests and decisions, which helps to understand how and why nations foreign policy was the way it was and why things happened the way they did.To paraphrase: You are retarded to think ww2 can only be understood if it's framed within a vacuum because it's only within these conditions that your retarded what-if scenario works.>Not overwhelmingly, but that was a big factor, probably the biggest.Thanks for this very useless input.>In a world war, it's not about being fine with something, it's about what can you do."Being perfectly fine" means it is a desirable outcome, and if it's not a desirable outcome you take preventive actions if it's within your power to do so.Germany defeating the USSR was not a desirable outcome for Britain. Is this a shocking revelation to you?Can we end this discussion now? Because you're boring as fuck. No one wants to talk about your "bro what-if Japan wasnt Japan" alt-history bullshit.
>>16815242This is just so awful and low quality. I really hope you’re still in middle school. What a bunch of garbage.
>>16818925>Can we end this discussion now?Noone's keeping you here by force. >No one wants to talk about your "bro what-if Japan wasnt Japan" alt-history bullshit.Don't project your own feeling onto other anons. If you don't want to participate, just fuck off and don't poison the thread with your low IQ comments. vdagw
>>16818952You could've as well written "this post makes me angry because I hate the evil nazis".Would've been more honest, and the contribution to the discussion would've been the same.
>>16818244Explain how they could have the strength to say no to Germany without allies hm
>>16813054>Italy and Japan should have died for GermansThere was nothing in for Italy and even if Japan had captured a large chunk of Siberia, it was a howling wilderness.
Italy did attack Russia. Japan attacking Russia would just bog them down even worse than they already were in China. The Japanese well remembered they got their asses kicked by the Russian army when they tried to go into Manchuria a few years prior
>>16819632What is the anticomintern pact?
>>16813701Peak retard. They recalled 7 divisions from the far east to defend Moscow. Those were the 26th Rifle, the 21st Rifle, the 92nd Rifle, the 32nd Rifle, the 78th rifle,, the 58th Tank, and the 60th Tank. https://www.operationbarbarossa.net/the-siberian-divisions-and-the-battle-for-moscow-in-1941-42/Those 7 divisions were less than 7% percent of the forces defending Moscow. There were 98 divisions deployed as such; and if you assume the independant brigades operated normally (i.e. 3 brigades to a division) that adds another 3.25 divisions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow_order_of_battleSomehow, I think that all those other vast majority of the Soviet forces would like to claim the bulk of the credit for defending Moscow, but here we have Anon saying it was just those 7 divisions from Siberia, Amirite?
>>16813664Japs won at Lake Khasan
>>16819499>strengthThey wouldn't need any. Why would Hitler want to attack them if they had a neutrality pact with Germany?
>>16818879>>16818603Braindead idiot
>>16819254>y-you only say that because y-you hate NAZIS!Kek, what the fuck. Lmao at the shit I see here. Only on 4chins.No retard, I called you worthless because it sounds like you have severe comprehension and logic issues. If you aren’t in middle school then you are severely mentally handicapped and I wish your caretaker the best. None of the things you wrote had any bearing in reality. Theres no discussion to be had with you because you are so uneducated on the topic that it would be one-sided, likely with you being obnoxious the entire time.
>>16819632>even if Japan had captured a large chunk of Siberia, it was a howling wilderness.The goal of a war is not going after natural resources, but defeating your enemy, because if you don't, they'll come after you. Let's assume the perfect scenario for Japan: the US doesn't impose the embargo, they conquer China and all the islands they want. Guess what - Barbarossa still fails. After the USSR defeats the Germans, do you believe they'll let Japan - Germany's ally - keep what they conquered? IRL, even despite the neutrality pact that Japan had with the Soviets, the latter betrayed the former and attacked them. And they didn't even let them keep half of Sakhalin.
>>16820598It wouldn’t have mattered. A few extra obsolete shit Italian armored divisions wouldnt have made the difference. As it was, their presence in Russia wasn’t worth much. Japan couldn’t have made a decent impact even if it wanted to, and its excesses in Siberia would only lewd to poorer performance in the pacific, whereupon the allies would gain the upper hand and be able to devote more resources to europe.Really Italy shouldn’t have been involved in the war at ALL. Japan made the right decision by not attacking russia. The most important contribution Italy could have made to Germanyw as by remaining neutral and not sucking many motorized and armoured divisions into africa and the balkans, divisions which were well equipped and needed elsewhere. Not to mention the luftwaffe.
>>16820826And also, had the Japs and Germans defeated the Soviet together, who's to say that the Japs couldn't go after China? The western colonies would probably be a no-go, because it would piss off the Americans.Their response to Japan attacking China is a question mark, and I suppose they wouldn't be happy about it because they wouldn't want another empire by the Pacific Ocean. But with FDR dead at that time, who knows...
>>16820784>trusting HitlerLol.
>>16820976You can trust his willingness not to waste resources and manpower in a useless war. Also, Poland was weak militarly at that time, the chances that they would attack the Germans was low.
>>16813054WW2 is an excellent example both for the right and wrong way to fight coalition warfare.The Axis didn't trust each other further than they could throw and each secretly had their own goals. The Allies, were able to somewhat set aside their differences to fight towards a common goal, even if relations broke down almost immediately afterwards>>16813619>wrong info>current eventspls fuck off
>>16821070Which is why the Germans unjustly invaded Poland in our timeline, they saw a weak nation they could easily bully. Which is why a neutrality pact wouldn't matter and why the Polish aligned themselves with England and France
>>16820826>>16820862Chinq literally forced Japan into war with the US >>16817320The very reason the US imposed the embargo is because China defeated Japan at kunlun pass, which triggered Japan's plan to invade SEA because China defeating Japan at Kunlun pass, West Suiyuan and Changsha was causing them to expend oil at unsustainable rates>Japan would need to consume the entire output of Dutch and UK oilfields in SEA and not just the portions the Dutch and UK sold them, otherwise Japan's mechanised forces woul collapse in China.
>>16821920Maybe Japan should have just given up rather then double down on their retarded war.
>>16813054What about the Pasta bros? The whole discussion here is about Germany, Japan and Poland, but could the Italians have done anything better, or make some better decisions?
>>16822202Italy made numerous and considerable errors. The problem is that most of these errors have a common source: Mussolini. His government resembled in a lot of ways those tinpot little dictatorships in Africa or South America; an ostensibly popular and all powerful strongman, but one with no institutional legitimacy and constrained by all sorts of competing power structures within the state and customary rules of engagement.What that effectively means is that Mussolini only gets to stay Il Duce if he can keep other people in Italian politics from eclipsing his prestige. And that in turn means he pushes out anyone who looks like a threat/rival, and often shuffles governmental appointments to prevent subordinates from getting too good at their jobs. That in turn, is what created the constant organizational chaos within the Italian government and messed up their military performance.You can try to fix individual blunders like demobilizing a third of your force set to invade Greece weeks before the attack date or neglecting harbor defenses in Taranto. But you're going to keep seeing similar ones if you don't remove the root problem.
>>16813098Japan could've gotten away with a lot if they just didn't do war crimes.The whole pan-asian thing might have gotten somewhere and they could've been at the head of it, but they couldn't resist the alluring ankle of Nanking.
>>16820621Against 1938 Russia. Post winter war Russia was far better equipped and organised for modern war
>>16818603That doesn't sound realistic, one bit.
>>16813611>Shitalians are nigg-*BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP*
>>16821150>WW2 is an excellent example both for the right and wrong way to fight coalition warfare.>The Axis didn't trust each other further than they could throw and each secretly had their own goals. The Allies, were able to somewhat set aside their differences to fight towards a common goal, even if relations broke down almost immediately afterwardsInteresting how it's still happening nowadays. On the left, they NEVER break ranks, they always support each other, even if they might hate one another. On the righ, it's the opposite - all the time someone chimps out, or wants to be the dominant figure, and betrays the cause. That's the reason why the good guys always keep losing, including the Axis.
>>16821394>they saw a weak nation they could easily bully. Which is why a neutrality pact wouldn't matter and why the Polish aligned themselves with England and FranceCompletely wrong. He saw a nation which wason good terms with Germany, until the marshall's death. When Beck took over foreign policy, he started flirting with the Allies, and ultimately made an alliance with them. Had he stayed with the path that Poland and Germany were walking on, there would've been an alliance. There's some info about that in pic rel.
>>16822283Did he have the support of the monarchy? Did the king have a lot of power, legally wise?
>>16823504>one of the things that outraged him the most during his tenure was the fact that the French foreign minister didn't greet him at the train station during his visit to France.As if this diplomacy wasn't too obvious. Poland really fucked up, should have went with the Krauts. You lose Danzig, but might gain a lot of land in the east, like in the Commonwealth's times.
>>16824004Danzig wasn't controlled by Poland you dimwit
>>16824005It was a "free city", some kind of weird 14th century Italy-style entity. It was a matter of time when someone anexes it, and it being within Poland's borders, it could practically have been considered Polish territory.
>>16823497>>16821150You’re way oversimplifying this, and the other guy talking about modern politics… just, no. First of all, look at the Spanish Civil War. Great example of left wing factions not working together, and right wing factions working very closely together. Second, the lack of communication between the Axis was only a problem in the very early part of the war. That was it’s most important part, but it still only occured at the beginning. By 1941 the European Axis were working very closely, going so far as to imbed their units within one another as best they could on multiple geographic fronts around the world. The Allies are not wothout error either- they similarly exhibited poor communicative behaviors in the early part of the war. Poor communication was more a result of the lifespan of the war rather than of the alliances themselves.Lastly, and most importantly, the Allies had a great advantage in maintaining communication that the Axis simply did not have. That was language. The western Allies were the Anglosphere, simply put. Units could act without any communicative disruption if they so chose. The Axis OTOH were PLAGUED by inability to communicate between units, especially at the lower tactical levels. Italian officers needed German speaking liassions in order to communicate. These were actually few and far between. When these people were killed in battle, units acting alongside German ones often became functionally radio silent. There was no way to give or recieve info. The same problem affected Romanian actions, too. Only Hungary, and to a lesser extent Slovakia and Croatia, were free of this paralyzing problem- that’s because of their histories in thr Austrian Empire, where officers and NCOs had historically always been schooled in Getman as a second language, or were German themselves and spoke Croatian/Hungarian as a second language, and who still made up a huge portion of officers still alive.
>>16823531Yes, he did, sort of. Mussolini’s regime was very much tenuous, from the onset. It wasn’t a true dictatorship with absolute power. It was more like consent from other members of italian politics which allowed him to remain at the helm of the state. When Mussolini was arrested in 1943 he was, moments before, simply ‘fired’. He was kicked out of power by a vote of no confidence- the same ejection process that takes place for any sappy prime minister.So, it wasnt just the king. The parliament and the state that existed before Mussolini came to power was all still there. Things were bent to Mussolini’s wishes, but they fundamentally were unchanged.It was very starkly contrasting to Hitler’s dictatorship, which was total true definitional absolutism, the kind that would make any ancient ruler jealous.
>>16824357>That was language.Did you really just claim that the language barrier was a problem between empires in the XX century? Also, the lack of teamwork between the Axis countries was on a fundamental level, not specific battles. For example - the decision to go against the Soviet Union together. All it took was Poland siding with the allies - and everything fell apart. He signed a pact with the USSR, the Japs got pissed and also signed a pact with them. Had Hitler asured the Japanese that he is planning to invade the Soviets (but later), the Japs would probably not go so far into China (not to waste resources needed for Kantokuen - attack on the Soviets), which would probably prevent the oil embargo. But no, Hitler had to do it all by himself. He ignored the Japs completely, which cost him the war.
>>16813098>>16822289>rich oil>Japan is bigger FinlandSoviet Union has collapse on two front.
>>16824096>it could practically have been considered Polish territory.Source: my headcanon
>>16824425>Did you really just claim that the language barrier was a problem between empires in the XX century?Yes, and it’s a fact accepted by all WWII historians, and written about extensively by military commanders. And I just explained to you WHY it was an issue, which you seemed to ignore (peobably because you’re purpsoefully doing it so you can set up a strawman, as you didn’t actually address the argument with a rebuttal in your post, indicating that you don’t have one). Liassons men would often die, leaving company leaders without any ability to communicate with accompanying German units. Again, this is a subject extensively written about.>the lack of teamwork between the Axis countries was on a fundamental level, not specific battles.Strawman argument. I see what you’re doing here. I never said “specific battles”. The fact is that by 1941, coordination between the European Axis was growing seamlessly as was the Allies’. Try to disprove this with examples.>All it took was Poland siding with the allies - and everything fell apart. He signed a pact with the USSR, the Japs got pissed and also signed a pact with them.an example from the very early war>Had Hitler asured the Japanese that he is planning to invade the Soviets (but later), the Japs would probably not go so far into China (not to waste resources needed for Kantokuen - attack on the Soviets), which would probably prevent the oil embargo.Doesn’t make any sense. China, not the USSR, was Japan’s objective. Skirmishes against Russia in Mongolia were over China- not over Japanese expansion into the USSR. Hitler informing Tojo about Operation Barbarossa would have not changed anything. Furthermore, the United States governments goal was to find Cassus Belli to enter WWII- its reaction to Japan with embargo was not isolated or limited to Japanese movements in China. Japan would have tastes the embargo whether she expanded or not.
>>16813701>Soviets were only able to fight off the germs from taking Moscow because of neutrality pact with Japan.Tge Germans never even tried to take Moscow, they just got near it. Moscow was not just some unguarded village you could walk right into and plant a flag in red square. It was the most fortified city in the world, and a hub for tge entire Soviet rail network. So long as it was able to keep from being encircled there's no reason to think a battle of Moscow would have played out differently from stalingrad.
>>16824425>He ignored the Japs completely, which cost him the war.This has been the entire oremise of your thread which you’ve maintained for over a week without ANY argument or evidence on your part whatsoever.Please demonstrate how Japanese intervention in Barbarossa would have won Hitler the war. Let’s actually debate about this. I garuntee you’re going to run while you’re being challenged.
>>16824450Proponents of the Japanese invasion theory in this thread have NEVER actually wargamed it out here. They refuse to tell us what units specifically would be involved in the invasion, how it would be conducted, where the oil for the operation would come from, ETC.We are arguing with literal middleschool children.
>>16824454>argument or evidenceAre you asking for evidence for a hypothetical operation succeeding? That's probably the biggest logical fallacy you can think of. There's only probability of success. And in this case, it would be quite high in my opinion. And also, I've noticed that only jews and midwits ask for "evidence", regardless of context, as if there weren't any other counter arguments. >Please demonstrate how Japanese intervention in Barbarossa would have won Hitler the war. Could have. And secondly - isn't it obvious? A 10 year old child could deduce that if the Soviets had to fight on 2 fronts, it would be significantly harder for them to defend themselves.
>>16824459>They refuse to tell us what units specifically would be involved in the invasionThose that would've been created if Japan decided to go against Russia, instead of SEA (IJA would've gotten the war toys instead of the IJN). >where the oil for the operation would come fromJapan was embargoed because it was waging war against China, but mostly because thy went after western colonies. If they decided to attack Russia, none of that would've happened, ergo, no embargo is imposed. And even if it is, they would've stockpilled so much that it might've been enough to make Barbarossa succeed.
>>16824450If you can actually encircle the city, the communication gets cut off completely, and the Germans could then march onto Siberia and finnish Russia off.
>>16825161>Japan was embargoed because it was waging war against China, Japan was embargoed for occupying French Indochina in 1940, after China defeated Japan at Kunlun pass.Japan would either be forced to quit the war against China, invade Soviets for oil or invade SEA for oil after Kunlun pass.US and Netherlands supplied the majority of Japan's oil against China fron 1937-1940.It wasn't enough since Japan was defeated by China at Kunlun pass, West Suiyuan and first Changsha and they needed to consume ALL the output of the Dutch East Indies oilfields instead of what the Dutch sold.
>>16825146>>16825161This is somebody who doesn’t know amything about Japan’s military. He doesn’t know what forces were available for any possible offensives, because he’s an idiot and a midwit. He literally does not known anything about the war.Why would anybody want to discuss a topic with somebody as infantile as you?Describe what forces specifically would be slated for the invasion please, retard. Go on. If you don’t reply to this post your mother will die in her sleep tonight
>>16825939So you quoted half of my sentence where I talk about China, and you avoided quoting the "western colonies" part. And your answer to that quote was about French Indochina, which is a western colony. People on this board really a bunch of autists with minimum reading comprehension after all.
>>16826686>Why would anybody want to discuss a topic with somebody as infantile as you?You can ask yourself, you've been expressing your anger in this thread since the beginning. And it's kind of amusing seeing you seethe. That's July for you, the time when kids and teenagers don't go to school.
>>16825161>Those that would've been createdOooooh... bad answer
>>16813054Does anyone have that photo of a fat kid playing on a tech deck half pipe and Hitler and his top officers are watching in awe? That photo would be what the war rooms are like.
>>16813054This really should've happened. We were robbed.
>>16827759I’ve only posted a couple times. Multiple people have called you retarded. You ARE retarded. If you asked me for a what if, I could give you names of unit formations, loadouts, manufacturing sources, and more. But you? You suck. You dont know shit. You’re fake. You’re gay.Now apologize.
>>16829645>If you asked me for a what if, I could give you names of unit formations, loadouts, manufacturing sources, and more.Can you explain to me what the "butterfly effect" is?
Y'all are shit. Here's how you don't fuck up WW-II.> don't attack russia, don't even provoke stalin in the first place, maintain good relations> leave america alone> focus on decimating western europe, and having japan invade india instead of america.> give the shitty chinese land to the russians as a peace offering while japan gets the restThere. A german emptire that stays in europe and doesn't try to invade england, a japanese empire that stays in south and east asia and doesn't fuck the pacific, and a soviet union that takes over central asia and north and west china. America becomes too cuck to fight anybody, the military-industrial complex never happens
>>16830225>and having japan invade india instead of america.India was a British colony at that time. Attacking them would've been 10 times worse than what they did IRL.
>>16830001You write and think like a middle schooler bro. Just admit that you dont know what the fuck you’re talking about, sit down, ASK QUESTIONS, and LEARN.>the butterfly effectWhy dont you describe individually the specific units you want to use in your campaign. Then describe how and why the “butterfly effect” would impact them, and in what way.I know you’re in middle school, because by the time you turn 17 your critical thinking skills develop. Right now, at your age, you’re unable to consider small interrelated components of wider systems. It’s Nothing to be ashamed over, but it IS sometbing you should just be honest about.
>>16830225>don’t provoke Stalin>Stalin is busy demanding Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, and demanding German forces leave Finland>just give Stalin all of these strategic overtures so you can be surrounded!Ummm…>leave america alone>america begins waging undeclared war against German maval forces in the Atlantic, just like they did historically>eventually a Uboat captain ifnores orders not to return fire and sinks a destroyer>now America joins the war anywayVery smart, big guy. When are you turning 14?>having japan invade india instead of america>middle schooler who watched kiketube doesnt know that they DID invade India, and were BTFO>decimating western europe>????What did he even mean by this>hey Japan! I have an idea. Give all of your gains in China to a hostile foreign power.What could go wrong?>the military indsutrial complex never happensOML, Do you even know what that is, middle schooler?>>16831505Japan DID attack India. Please learn basic WWII history before commenting in this thread.
>>16831688I've never seen such a schizo kid like you desperately trying to sound smart. And you're failing miserably.
>>16832777I’m a schizo because I’m one of the several people noticing how fucking utterly dumb you are? Idk man. I gave you the benefit of the doubt by calling you a child.Maybe you’re just mentally handicapped.
>>16816736Why was Stalin so obsessed with cavalry?
>>16815245Italian soldiers were decent but undersupplied and their officers had some retard moments. But at the end of the day meat is meat
>>16816163Im gay
>>16815838Their navy was pretty good in the mediteranean
>>16833412>>16815838>>16833412The Italian navy was NOT good. It lacked necessary tactical carriers. See the battle of Cape Matapan. Its presence didn’t do Germany any favors when you consider that the front was only there because Italy opened it in the first place.On a strategic level, however, What the Italian navy DID do is indirectly aid Japan. The reason for this is that Britain’s more modern submarine fleet was based in the Pacific; they were all mostly withdrawn to the Mediterranean in 1940 and 1941 to contend with the Axis in the sea, leaving the Royal Navy eith a glaring weakness in SEA. Their absence from the Pacific in early 1942 immeasurably aided Japan’s advance through SEA and the islands. Had those submarines been there, it is likely that Japans advance would have actually been stymied eith much, much greater losses. Perhaps even thwarted altogether- and perhaps perhaps- even convincing Japanese high command against attacking the European colonies at all, this butterlying away Pearl Harbor.
>>16813054roosevelt and his disgusting kike clique pushed america into to it though op has no knowledge of the war aside from hitler bad movies
>>16833659Italian RM was inferior to British RN in terms of equiptment. For example Italian ships had virtually no equiptment for night engagement and also lacked equiptment to detect, hence why British suprise attacks like at Taranto were so successful.But more importantly, the RM lacked fuel. When Italy entered the war they were cut off from foreign trade, so Romania became the only real source of oil, and Italy simply couldnt compete over Germany for Romanian oil. This is why the smaller British taskforce in the Mediteranian could dominate the much larger Italian navy (the 4th largest in the world), because most of those ships could never leave port.
>>16830225>give the shitty chinese land to the russians as a peace offeringYou can't give land you don't control dumbass.The Soviet Union ALREADY occupied Xinjiang in 1937 with pro Soviet warlord Sheng Shicai. Soviet Union already controlled outer Mongolia China forced Japan into war with the US by defeating Japan at Kunlun pass and West Suiyuan in 1940 >>16825939 >>16815964Japan would be forced to invade either Southeast Asia or Soviets due to their inability to conquer China.
>>16817326Do not of poke mighty bear
>>16833987>>16817326/his'torically speaking, Russia was always the most vulnerable against herself - all the countless revolutions are a testament to that. If history truely repeats itself, there will be another revolution - among the population, or the military. If the west keeps pushing, this scenario is not so unlikely as it sounds.
>>16833666>roosevelt and his disgusting kike clique pushed america into to itI think this aspect needs more attention. I wonder, to what extent did the jews control/influence the highest American decision making during WWII?
>>16833666>rooseveltHow did he personally feel about the nazis?
