What are you guys' thoughts on Christian Universalism?I guess this is kind of a general thread but whatever. Please keep this as civil and polite as possible!!!For Context: Universalism is the idea that all people are reconciled back to God in heaven, and that all is made perfect again, usually via Hell as a purgatorial fire than an eternal one. It was espoused by some of the Church fathers, most famously Origen, Clement, and Gregory of Nyssa. There is an incredibly small group of "Primitive Baptist Universalists" that uphold that the punishment for sins takes place here on Earth. They're belief isn't the main focus here, but it is here for completeness.Universalism has caught on with theologians over the years (such as David Bentley Hart and Robin Parry), due to it's logical solutions to things such as the problem of evil, it's historical basis, and having some scriptural basis within the original texts.To Clarify: - Universalism is NOT the religion known as "Unitarian Universalists" - Universalism is NOT considered a *damnable* heresy (although whether or not it should be a heresy is debated) - Universalism does NOT argue that all religions or lifestyles are right, or that sinning is ok. Christians are expected to strive to be as righteous as possible, with righteousness as it's own reward and less time in the purgatorial hell. - Universalism is NOT usually anti-mission - Universalists hold to trinitarian beliefs and conservative beliefs on other non-hell issues - Universalists uphold that the purgatorial hell is not pleasant and of unknown (albeit limited) length, and still argue for the repentance of sins
>Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
>>16834637While not a universalist myself, I've heard universalists say that most people will fall short of the lord (such as Rom 3:23) and thus be led to this purgatorial hell.There was one guy who stated that the later phrase of "I never knew you" shows great mercy to the sinner by casting them away and ignoring their evil.Also, while not a universalist thought, man theologians think that this is a parable given by Jesus, and that it wouldn't make sense to think of it as a numerical calculation for who is saved (especially since other parables, such as the wheat and tares and 10 virgins would contradict the small number of saved.) Other verses, such as Rev 7:9, would contradict this and Rom. 5:15-20 would refute this.Many theologians seem to view this as similar to the Mustard Seed parable, saying that the church is small (in Jesus' day), and we should grow it and let many more people find the door.
>>16834386>all people areno
>>16834684I think the "I never knew you" guy was quoting Brian Zahndhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Nq0ulqOLfMThe only "argument" against this view that I've seen is someone who misunderstood Isiah 45:7 where God creates "evil", which are harmful natural events to discipline, and not moral evil, which God did not create (the misunderstander thinks that God created moral evil, and thus sin, which is definitely not the case.)"knew" also means to signify intimacy (ex: Adam knew Eve), showing that the person does not know Christ, even though Christ knows them. Since intimacy has to be 2-sided, when Christ tells them to depart, it is out of mercy for them and letting them come into his company when they finally know him. This also means that know does not violate Gods omniscience.
>>16834747There are technically some Calvinist universalists who uphold that all people either are or join the elect, and Calvinism itself doesn't technically violate universalism (although universalism is generally far less common among Calvinists).There's also the Primitive Baptist Universalists who are Calvinist universalists (although the PBU theology is very unique.)I am not of the reformed tradition so I don't know for sure on this, but I highly respect it, and think that it is a good theology.I do have a copy of the Institutes of the Christian Religion but I haven't finished it.
>>16834784>all people*ftfy
>>16834386Universalism is a form of demon worship and has nothing to do with Christianity. It involves God taking people who do not want to worship him and then forcing them to worship him forever in eternity. It's completely the opposite of what the Bible teaches.
>>16834803Universalists don't uphold that people are forced to worship God against their will. Universalists uphold that all people will turn to God and profess in Christ by their own realization and that God will have mercy on their unbelief and sins. This is why a purgatorial hell exists instead of an eternal one - One is cleansed of their wrongdoings and brought to a perfect world, not out of torturing them into submission, but out of genuine love for them and showing them the joy of righteousness. Universalists assert that once someone has seen righteousness, unbelievers will accept God upon seeing the beauty, love, and reality of him.In other words: “Where sin increased, grace increased all the more.” (Romans 5:20)People are not forced to worship an evil God, but are reconciled back to their original sinless state by him out of love. Through this, they realize the love of God via their own free will, and are thus allowed into paradise by their own admission.God's justice to the sinner is temporary because he loves them and wants them to not dwell in sin, which would make them suffer since there is no goodness there, away from God.
>>16834841Universalism is the heresy that salvation by the Christ is or ever was meant for all people.
>>16834843Why do you believe this?
>>16834843They believe that everyone gets saved in the end, you fucking retarded Calvinist.
>>16834386It seems like it would lend itself well with the idea of reincarnation. Reincarnation as retribution for past actions and sins until the reconciliation of your soul.
>>16834747>>16834795>>16834843I guess this is mainly an atonement issue. Most people assert that if Jesus died for all people, than universalism is a possibility, with most people hoping for the redemption of all but accepting the possibility of eternal damnation (usually for a hopefully small amount of people). (the exception to this are those fundies who think that most people are going to hell for not being fundies and that the only salvation is through Independent Baptists, with God just ditching the "unlearned" or otherwise moral people I guess.)Limited atonement people seem to reject universalism. There are some who hope that the elect are most people (just usually not all).
>>16834935That's an interesting idea, I've never heard anyone espouse that as a hypothetical.Reincarnation doesn't really work in traditional Christian thought, but a very cool idea nonetheless and would be a very cool idea of (a) "purgatory" action(s).
>>16834963>That's an interesting idea, I've never heard anyone espouse that as a hypothetical.Isn't that how it works in Buddhism with Karma?
It's pretty clearly the authentic teaching of christianity, taught from paul to the cappadocians onwards. The fact that it's still a prevailing sentiment in eastern orthodoxy, the closest receivers of the early church, is testament to this fact. Unfortunately it may take a couple centuries for the wider masses of christians plebs to realize they were wrong for so long and turned away from the message of gospel so early, but nonetheless they'll all submit to christ eventually.
