Can anyone explain the logic of being pro-treaty in Ireland? Like the entire point is to stop having to fight the British but as half of your fellow countrymen don't agree with you then you will end up fighting your own people instead so you might as well have joined them in being anti-treaty from the start and both fought the British together instead of killing your own people. Is there any reasoning behind this, why aren't there more conspiracies about it and why have Ireland moved on from it so easily like people in America still wave confederate flags after their civil war why can Irish people celebrate two contradictory groups is it simply because they aren't taught their own history?
>>16879084what happened is that the military radicalized to a point where smart people (notably De Valera) wanted to exploit it. he also didnt trust the british one bit in keeping the peace in Ireland and wanted to achieve full irish independence with northern ireland too. if anything the real "cultural devide" that the irish civil war created was northern ireland, the UDF formed during the first irish uprising to defend Ulster and kept around during the civil war becoming the unofficial defence force of Ulster supported by the british. the civil war in irish ireland though didnt have a serious cultural effect because most of the population was left out of it, plus it was mainly a political strive and not a cultural one
>>16879084It's funny how they have held on to their hate of the British while importing millions of Africans and middle easterners.
>>16879116go back to pol cancer we dont give a shit about your blacked fetish
>>16879084There were two veins of Pro-Treaty opinion.>ModerateThis is the less sinister one. They were sold the Treaty as a compromise; as a stop to the fighting with heavy concessions, which they could use to later fully achieve independence. Few here actually *liked* the Treaty, but were instead loyal to the leaders such as Collins who espoused it as a long term solution. This is also where the guys who voted out of fear of British military threats go.>Counter-RevolutionaryThe backbone of the Pro-Treaty Camp, and the guys who took charge once Collins died. Opposed to the more revolutionary side of Irish Nationalism, they saw the IRA not as a national liberation army but as a dangerous threat to their administration. This group was made up of everyone from pro-British political leaders to hyper conservatives who would later go on to join or even lead fascist movements.The way the Pro-Treaty side won is that the Counter Revolutionaries scared people into the moderate side. >>16879110>military radicalized to a point where smart people (notably De Valera) wanted to exploit itDe Valera was generally opposed to IRA violence until the end of the war, but tried to step in as a leader of the IRA's campaign at the end.>the real "cultural devide" that the irish civil war created was northern ireland,But the Irish in what became Northern Ireland weren't any different than the rest of the island, and for many that's still true today.>the UDF formed during the first irish uprising to defend Ulster The *Ulster Volunteers were founded in 1912, in response to the likelihood of a successful Home Rule Bill.>kept around during the civil war By this stage the Ulster Special Constabulary were more central to counter-insurgency in Ulster. They had been from 1921.>the civil war in irish ireland though didnt have a serious cultural effect It wasn't a cultural war, it was a political one. It defined Irish politics for decades and the affects of it are still felt today.
>>16879084Also:>Is there any reasoning behind thisPeople do often forget that the alternative posed by Britain to the Treaty was immediate and massive military escalation, at a time when the IRA were extremely short on weaponry/ammunition. Of course, we'll never know if it was a bluff.>why aren't there more conspiracies about it The Republic of Ireland's entire history is based on the acceptance that the Pro-Treaty side were correct. Establishment Republic of Ireland wants you to think that it was the intended outcome of the Irish Revolution, rather than a repainted British Dominion.>why have Ireland moved on from it so easily Well to be fair anon, the Republican movement never went away. The Provisional IRA waged a 30 year war against Britain on the principles of the Irish Republic which the Treaty dissolved.Sinn Féin, the largest party in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland, rejected the Treaty and have never accepted it as legitimate, espousing anti-Treaty rhetoric-albeit while still revering certain Irish revolutionary heroes who went Pro-Treaty, such as Collins.
>>16879084>Finishing a bloody war against the British who at the same time was a war closely chained to WWI>Wanting more war just because "Erin go Bragh"
>>16879116Save it for /pol/ but those are different groups of people, they government and media loath Irish people and our love of our country they hate all western nations. Sure they will throw the odd wink wink to republicans to try get some votes but they don't care, they might critizie England but you will see very clearly that critique is of the entire west including Ireland. They want Ireland destroyed they simply hate nations, they hate nationalism in all forms. If you are anti-immigration you are the bad guy because you love your country, end of story
>>16879210>Finishing a bloody war against the British who at the same time was a war closely chained to WWIIt wasn't necessarily finished, though. The Irish War of Independence started after WW1. It wasn't fought blindly but along a very specific set of principles outlined in the first Dáil Éireann and in accordance with Sinn Féin's 1918 election manifesto. The Civil War, likewise, was in adherence to them. So it wasn't them wanting "more war", just that suddenly many political leaders and some military leaders were now calling for the dismemberment of the Irish Republic that they'd just spent years fighting for, with the only justification being:>I'm sure Britain will simply give us back the north and give us freedom later on!>If we don't say yes and swear fealty to Britain, they'll be even nastier to us!So of course the vast majority of the IRA, Cumann na mBan, and the Irish Citizen Army all rejected the Treaty. Which is why the Provisional Government had to make an entirely new army and fill it with British veterans.The Civil War is framed as a war between two factions of the IRA, when in reality it was the vast majority of the IRA vs a small splinter and a new British backed counter revolution. The IRA lost.
>>16879170>espousing anti-Treaty rhetoric-albeit while still revering certain Irish revolutionary heroes who went Pro-Treaty, such as Collins.This is partially my confusion when I say people in Ireland manage to celebrate both side which would on their faces almost seem contradictory. Obviously life isn't so simple so nobody will be perfect on either side but these people literally killed each other like you can't agree with both sides
>>16879256Yeah, it is completely contradictory.There are annual commemorations of the 1916 Easter Rising, and yet both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil will *always* condemn the likes of the Provisional IRA without reserve. There is a phenomenon in Ireland known as:>the "Good Old IRA"which is in essence the notion that the IRA between 1919-1922 and the Irish Volunteers in 1916 were good, decent, noble patriots but the IRA from 1923 onwards were terrible evil terrorists. The Provisional IRA or other Republican belligerents in the Troubles are vilified.This makes no sense, because the IRA in the 1920s had its fair share of civilian victims. Irish Republicanism threatens the Republic of Ireland's entire reason for being; both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have built their entire political standing on the idea that fundamentally, the Pro-Treaty side were right in the end and the IRA are just troublemakers. Sinn Féin try to monopolise on all Irish nationalist history to form a broad umbrella group, but it's still odd.
Bumping with colourised Civil War photos.The National Army's uniforms were great.
I am not exaggerating when I say that I think an enormous amount of Pro-Treaty sentiment depends heavily on the fact that they looked cool.
>>16879084>Can anyone explain the logic of being pro-treaty in Ireland?The treaty secured Irish independence and the alternative was deciding to fight for unwinnable goals with a high probability of losing everything. >Like the entire point is to stop having to fight the British but as half of your fellow countrymen don't agree with you then you will end up fighting your own people insteadIf your "own people" decide to attack the government there's not much alternative, is there? I don't get what your point even is. If the US Army tried to force the government to attack Iran would you think suppressing them would be bad because they're Americans and fighting foreigners is better?>why have Ireland moved on from it so easily like people in America still wave confederate flags after their civil war why can Irish people celebrate two contradictory groups is it simply because they aren't taught their own history?Are you fucking retarded? The civil war has singlehandedly defined Irish politics for the past century. You think it isn't taught?
>>16880185>secured Irish independence Dominion status with the monarch as head of state and with British miltiary installations still in Ireland and heavy British oversight.>If your "own people" decide to attack the government there's not much alternative, is there?While the IRA made the first move against the Provisional Government, some would argue that their actions weren't really much different to that of 1919; yes, they were taking action against Irish politicians/leaders but they were agreement to disbaned the Republic you'd been fighting for since 1919 at the demand of Britain. In 1919, it was the RIC. Then, the Black and Tans. Then, the National Army, etc.
>>16879084>civil wars are violentwho knew??
>>16880217>Dominion status with the monarch as head of state and with British miltiary installations still in Ireland and heavy British oversight.Fig leaves which the Irish state junked within a generation of independence.An independent state was everything. The treaty achieved that. The rest was window dressing. The anti-treaty forces chimped out over shit that not even the British ended up caring about.>While the IRA made the first move against the Provisional Government, some would argue that their actions weren't really much different to that of 1919; yes, they were taking action against Irish politicians/leaders but they were agreement to disbaned the Republic you'd been fighting for since 1919 at the demand of Britain. In 1919, it was the RIC. Then, the Black and Tans. Then, the National Army, etc.I can see their argument in principle. However they were proved wrong by subsequent events. The Free State ended up securing Irish independence from British rule.
>>16880239>Fig leaves which the Irish state junkedAfter the reorganised anti-treaty political bloc got into power in 1932, something which many within the Pro-Treaty Camp were ready to oppose via a military coup.Also>window dressingPartition isn't window dressing, anon.>Anti-Treaty Forces chimped outThe "Anti-Treaty Forces", aka almost the entire IRA and vast majority of all other Republican combatants, did the same stuff they'd been doing since 1919.If I recall correctly it was the National Army that became infamous for extra-judicial killings, as well as for recruiting British military veterans to put down the IRA.>I can see their argument in principle. However they were proved wrong by subsequent events.Yes, hindsight is 20/20. Dismissing their position due to how it played out is wrong.The Free State had a ruthless counter-revolution in the 1920s, was thrown into turbulence by the ascension of Anti-Treaty politicians in the 1930s, and both marched toward the centre and gave up on partition. The Republic of Ireland is a repainted Free State, not a restored Irish Republic.
>>16880185>You think it isn't taught?Not really, all people in Ireland seem to know is 1916 and the famine. After that it's pure ignorance, obviously you went to a good school. The way the government speaks to you guys it's clear they know how ignorant most Irish people are of the realities of your past but you all fall for it hook line and sinker
>>16880279Don't be too harsh. It's easy to criticise from the north or from outside but for those within the ROI it is very blackpilling stuff.
>>16880273>After the reorganised anti-treaty political bloc got into power in 1932, something which many within the Pro-Treaty Camp were ready to oppose via a military coup.But they didn't. Because de Valera and FF accepted the treaty in government, admitting that the pro-treaty side had been correct. >Partition isn't window dressing, anon.Two points. The obvious one is that all of Ireland would still be under British rule today if the government had insisted there could be no Irish freedom anywhere without all of Ulster.The second is that even given the above, Collins commanded an IRA offensive in Northern Ireland AFTER signing the treaty. The pro-treaty government did not envisage partition as permanent. The Free State was a bridgehead to achieving unification at a later date. >The Republic of Ireland is a repainted Free State, not a restored Irish Republic.This is just meaningless scholasticism that no one actually believes outside of a handful of Marxist cranks. Even the Provisional IRA and its descendants accept the Irish republic nowadays.>>16880279Ordinary people are well aware. Just because they disagree with your narrative doesn't mean you know more than them. Sorry to burst your bubble.
>>16880338>admitting that the pro-treaty side had been correctNo, they just abandoned abstentionism-and many didn't join them. I agree however that they too fell short of being actual Republicans.Just as we don't really know what would have happened if the Treaty was rejected, it's impossible to know how hardline the Ulster position was. The IRA offensive by Collins if anything was an act against the Treaty and a few months later he'd have been rounded up and executed by Nationals for ordering it.>The Pro-Treaty Government did not envisiage partition as permanentSo why didn't they take any tangible steps to end partition, anon? Why did they execute so many potentially vital people for unification, like Erskine Childers? >meaningless scholasticismIt isn't at all, though. Sure, dissident movements against it have faded since 1998, but there's a reason that the whole:>a United Ireland shouldn't just be the Republic of Ireland+6 countiesidea is so massively popular.Every government in the Republic of Ireland has extremely hypocritical about its relationship with the IRA, and with Republicanism.The Ireland we have today is the one we have because of the Anglo-Irish Treaty. It doesn't 't really resemble what was proclaimed in 1916, it demonises revolutionary soldiers here and venerates them there, and it continually commemorates actions carried out by the army it worked so hard to suppress.It's very weird.
>>16880338>Ordinary people are well awareNigga half your population aint even Irish anymore they certainly don't know. I'm sorry most Irish people have no idea what the Civil War is and why it was fought, it's a confusing narrative but don't act like they all understand it
>>16880119>>16880125I agree on their uniforms. The Black and Tans looked pretty cool too
>>16880119>>16880125This is just generic early 20th century woolen military uniform though, it doesn't have a special design.
>>16879084You seem to discard the possibility of the British escalating the war and conducting a brutal, but successful, anti-insurgency which may have very well defeated the IRA entirely. The British Empire had already crushed the Boers in South Africa only 20 years before, the threat of the British Army taking off the gloves and going full Murderkilldozer mode wasn't something they took lightly.
>>16880587Was there a chance of this happening though? It seems a lot easier for Britain to do that to some Dutch speaking people in Africa rather than to the English speaking Irish right who live next to England.
>>16880598They didn't have crystal balls, they couldn't predict whether the British state would go hardcore or not, but when you're dealing with the lives of millions it's not the type of thing you play chicken with. Realistically speaking, from our POV today, yeah we can deduce that the chances of Britain going that far on Ireland was unlikely (as, despite all the memes, the Irish were very much considered a "proper European people" and not brown colonial savages or isolated Boer bumpkins to bully around)
Britishers genocided the Irish and out britishe agents in charge of Ireland and still rule it today very sad
>>16880554Yes, but the aesthetics of its use combined with the very nice Irish symbols make it more popular than the IRA, who looked like civilians with guns a lot of the time.>>16880546Black and Tans were a mixed back usually depending on how much RIC stuff they used. Some of them did look pretty good, like picrel.>>16880587That is the argument, and it goes both ways. Hindsight is 20/20, but:>No way, they're only doing this because they're desperate>They'll absolutely escalate since they've held back thus farWould have both been valid arguments at the time.I don't see it a similar situation to the Boer situation because this wasn't a far flung colony, it was the very heart of the Empire and multiple attempts were made during the war to enforce a political resolution by Britain.
>>16880714>This is what potato-niggers actually believe.jpg
>>16879121>your blacked fetishEnough about libtards
>>16880741That's black and tans?
I don't care what anyone says, Great Britain and Ireland (unified) belong together.
>>16882146Manchester should be the capital, fpr maximum autistic map painting aesthetics
>>16882146It’s called the British isles for a reason The fact people who get butthurt about that name can’t come up with a better alternative is demonstrative enough (“these islands” and “north Atlantic archipelago” are the best the entire Irish government could manage lmao)
>>16879084Anti Treaty ideology is Republican Romantacism. Northern Irish deserve self determination. If they wish to join the Union we ought to fight for a 2-state solution in Ireland with a democratic mandate which may hopefully lead to unification one day, given both sides want it.
>>16879084I'd say the Irish War of Independence is more stupid as they didn't have a good reason to become independent in the first place.
>>16880706Boers were certainly considered a proper European people, which is why Britains aggression against them stirred up anti-British sentiment across the continent.The real reason Britain wouldn't have gone gloves off against the Irish is the same reason they didn't go gloves off against the Turks or the Bolsheviks, the largest conflict of all time had just ended and the war-weary British public didn't have the energy or motivation to fight the new enemies that kept popping up.
