Was this necessary?
>>16880473Would you prefer if the Americans and Soviets turn Japan into a meat grinder?
>>16880478Yes, then we wouldnt have tranime
>>16880481It would've happened somewhere else regardless, most likely korea
>>16880473>necessaryyes to avoid needless deaths by USA troops conquering that islamestimates 2 million USA deaths for ground invasionfuck thatlet the nippers die instead
It was not enough
>>16880473If the United States hadn't used the bomb first, the Russians would've and that would've tipped the onset of the Cold War in the Ruskie's favor. Even before the end of WWII, American Generals and politicians were under no misconception that they'd eventually be squaring off against the Soviets in carving up the post-war international order. Also the Japs deserved it for anime.
Firebombing was similarly destructive but didn't quite have the same dramatic flair to it. So perhaps it was.
>>16880473yes
>>16880473Operation Teapot was necessary.
>>16880503I think this is true. You can say "more people died in the firebombing of tokyo than at Hiroshima and Nagasaki put together" until you are blue in the face, but it doesn't have the same impact as "we have weaponized the atom and have vaporized two cities."
>>16880473Yes because if they didn't even more people would have to dieWhich is why Russia should just nuke Ukraine, because otherwise even more people will dieWhich is why you should give me your wallet, because otherwise one of us will ide.Completely morally justifiable.
>>16881519Not to mention do they mean one bombing run or all the bombing runs as a whole? Because the fucking nuke did it with one plane and one bomb, imagine a squadron dropping dozens.
>>16880473no the japs were ready for peace under very few conditions. But the US wanted unconditional which in the end was a bad decision because the soviets gained enough time to involve themselves to get North Korea and the northern islands
>>16880473NoBut it did probably contribute greatly to the development of the nuclear taboo, MAD and their public perception as world-ending weapons, which is why these are still the only deployments of nuclear weapons in a conflict. If the first deployment were to be an exchange, instead of a show of strength like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think there wouldn't have been a cold war, just a Soviet-American hot war.
No. The entire war was unnecessary.But Japan JUST HAD TO congure all of Asia.
>>16882285They could have just accepted unconditional surrender earlier.
>>16882372They couldn't. Removing the post of emperor is a big no no to them and it would've lead to only more violence and casualties.
>>16882381Unconditional surrender doesn't mean removal of the Emperor.
>>16882381>it would've lead to only more violence and casualties.I doubt it.Consider how Hitler's cause died with him.
>>16882285The conditions being they get to keep all the territory they had conquered and were still holding and that their war criminals don't get put on trial. Fuck em.
>>16882391>war criminals don't get put on trialThis happened in even though Japan surrendered unconditionally.
>>16882384it's what Japan feared and what the allies actually planned to some degree
>>16882406Many war criminals were punished, but others (some for basically arbitrary reasons, probably because a bunch of foreign prosecutors missed relevant stuff, others to protect the imperial family) got away with it
>>16880481Tranime existed before WW2 retard
>>16882510Irrelevant. They should of asked instead of assumed
Why didn't they make the emperor step down and put the son in charge instead? It's what they did in Iran and their only crime was they kept trading with Nazi Germany
>>16882617Good question.
>>16882617To the Japanese of the period, the Emperor was a divine figure. For men to impose their will on a divine figure is unthinkable. >>16882387Different nation, different mindset. By the end, Hitler blamed the Germans for losing the war and took no responsibility, so it was easy for people to abandon him. The Japanese military was in a similar position, but the Emperor himself took on full responsibility for the war, despite not really having much power himself. This endeared him to his people and MacArthur who was the original weeb
>>16882617>>16882637the southern court descendant (from the 14th century, the last time a shogun imposed a change of emperor) actually came out during the occupation and waved his family history around, but got no takersHirohito was a better collaborator than anyone they could possibly appoint, so they had him exonerated
The first bomb was. The second one wasn’t
>>16882510Not true at all. The emperor factored into allied plans as early as 1944. The only question mark is *which* emperor. This is the crux of the issue: Hirohito was an egomaniac and wanted *himself* to stay in the throne. This was the primary consideration, always, and explains every second of his behaviour from august 15 until the ratification of the MacArthur constitution.
>>16882697Exactly this. Hirohito was collaborator par excellence. All of his behaviour during the occupation was calculated
>>16880473No. Japan was already willing to surrender with the only condition being that the emperor would keep his position, which is what happened anyway. The only this did was kill a ton of innocent people and delay the end of the war long enough for the communist subhumans to come in and ruin East Asia.
>>16880503>>16881519No firebombing wasn't. Hiroshima + Nagasaki had 1/7 the (prewar) population of Tokyo. To even mention them in the same breath as Operating Meetinghouse requires that the atomic bombs be (and they were) substantially deadlier in effect. One also notes that there were 60+ cities targeted by firebombing raids, and yet Operation Meetinghouse is all anyone talks about.
>>16882752>muh glorious yankee empire saved jaban from gomunissomkill yourself
>>16882752>The only this did was kill a ton of innocent people and delay the end of the war long enough for the communist subhumans to come in and ruin East Asia.What.
>>16882752The Indian version of communism won. They now control the globe
>>16882637>To the Japanese of the period, the Emperor was a divine figure.Wow. He could have prevented the whole war from happening but didn't.
>>16880473It's impossible for words to describe, what is necessary...to those who do not know what horror means.
>>16880473No but yes. Without them the end of WWII would have been seen as much more of a soviet victory which would shape world opinion. Additionally, if the nuclear weapons were not tested on 2 cities, they would have almost certainly been deployed en masse at some point, as the cold war would almost certainly have gone hot without the threat of MAD and nuclear apocalypse.It was probably for the best.
>>16882786Yes. And he didn't because he trusted his incompetent military leaders. Tbf, they did beat the dogshit out of China so he had some reason to have faith in them
>>16882777I think he's saying japan should and could have surrendered earlier for the same outcome. Konoe begged Hirohito to surrender in february (before the tokyo firebombing, before iwo jima). then they could still surrender before okinawa. then they could still surrender before hiroshima. then they could still surrender before nagasaki... you see how this scenario plays out, but just count all the bodies since february that piled up while the emperor dithered (the war was lost since 1944, everyone knew this). Hirohito kept holding out for a 'decisive win' that would allow him to win a negotiated peace to protect his position. he would have sacrificed all 100 million cherry blossoms, without hesitation, to do so. hirohito is one of history's nastiest creatures.
>>16882759people talk about meetinghouse because it was apocalyptic. it happened in a single night, just like the atomic bombs, destroyed half of a metropolis and killed 150k people. apparently there was so much fire and heat that it created some alien physics, feeding in on itself. but frankly, when people talk about 'meetinghouse' I believe they are simply using this as a metonym for 'area bombing' in general. people bring this up as a reminder that the US air force possessed enormous destructive capability without using the bomb. and of course this is what they did in korea and vietnam, 'traditional bombs'. well, they're very effective. to this is why people talk about meetinhouse, because in fact a lot of people have no idea that almost 1 million civilians were burned to death and an entire country was ruined without the need of the atomic bomb. most people have a very simplistic view of the conflict and this is a reminder that it was complex
>>16882946here's a better map. but I didn't know about this stuff until I read Embracing Defeat and it's obvious that until like the early 50s japan is just in ruins, it's completely fucked. how did this happen, we never even invaded and the country is destroyed?
>>16882759To be fair, it took years to find effective tactics for B-29 bombing raids. So only the raids closer to the end of the war were particularly devastating.
>>16883039>So only the raids closer to the end of the war were particularly devastating.Even then, Osaka was #2 in population, and yet had <20,000 firebombing deaths across multiple raids.
>>16882905Sounds about right. But>they did beat the dogshit out of China so he had some reason to have faith in themthis just reminds me of all the horrific shit happening in China that he didn't seem to mind.
>>16883357They tried to say he was kept in the dark after the war but it was a lie. He was the best informed man in Japan, all information made it’s way to him through multiple channels. He never cared about inflicting death, on his own people or otherwise. The image of him as a peaceful monarch after the war was pure propaganda, and something he participated in to save his skin. Next stop: Disney world
>>16882915that's not the point he made. The point is that the allies insisted on the unconditional surrender which is the cause of the delayed peace and this delay made everything worse. It was in the allies hands to stop it and get the same reslut
>>16883448I don't understand your point of view. japan had opportunities to surrender when the war was lost but before their country was ruined: they chose not do to so. after potsdam, japan had further opportunities to surrender with specific terms: they chose not to do so2 atomics bombs and the soviet entry later, the japanese finally chose to accept the terms. so they accepted the unconditional surrender anyway but they only did it after a fire had been lit under their ass (the ussr intervening; would a communist japan keep the emperor? no.) so they moved quickly to accomodate SCAP and give him a reason to keep the emperor. let's look at the byrnes note (aug 10):>‘The ultimate form of government of Japan shall, in accordance with the Potsdam Declaration, be established by the freely expressed will of the Japanese people.and this is in response to the japs saying:>‘With regard to the Japanese Government’s message accepting the terms of the Potsdam Proclamation but containing the statement “with the understanding that the said declaration does not comprise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a sovereign ruler."so after a long debate, they finally decided on aug 12 (and again on aug 15) to accept the potsdam terms, which they could simply have done in july if they weren't so fucking arrogant. and of course, in the end the people never expressed their will that the monarchy would remain, this was a coup by SCAP and vested japanese interests to jam through the 'Symbol Monarchy' Constitution. after that, fait accompli.
