>>16886903
>suffering bad
Most of the time, yes.

>suffering good
Some of the time, yes. When someone deserves it.

>God
Irrelevant. You can ponder the nature and value of suffering without believing in any theology.

>suffering must exist because it's a "precious gift from God"
People who say things like this are retarded, indeed.

>Buddhism places no positive value on suffering
Indirectly it does, through the belief in just punishment via entrapment in samsara, for those who can not commit to right action and tranquility of mind.

>Suffering is a flaw in reality and has no positive value
Without suffering the consequences of your actions when you do something wrong, most people would continue to do wrong things, because most people are stupid. Suffering is valuable in that it teaches people lessons.

>>16886903
Who whores after suffering? Who seeks it out?

>>16886934
Masochists. Try dating one to experience suffering worse than any sadist can inflict.

>>16886921
So here's the thing about deserving suffering. Only the evil deserve suffering. Evil is defined by causing someone else suffering. If suffering never existed in the first place, evil intentions could never accomplish their goal. Thus, evil people wouldn't suffer a punishment, either, and we'd have a reality where simply by virtue of existing one would get to be happy and not suffer. I think this would be a better reality, but God did not create that realty for some reason (I think God couldn't have done any different). Furthermore, a Buddha's compassion extends to those who are malevolent. They don't want even evil people to suffer. God must be at least as good as a Buddha, so this furthers my case that God cannot end all suffering.

>Just punishment via entrapment in samsara
Buddhism teaches we are trapped because we are ignorant. We believe the phenomena of samsara have intrinsic existence whereas in reality they are not real and samsara is more like a dream.

>>16886937
I believe masochists, such as girls who like to have their ass spanked during sex, are experiencing more pleasure from the spanking than the pain they experience from it. They don't want you to stick a knife in their ass. It's just some weird biology-neurology thing, but it's still hedonism.

>>16886939
>We believe the phenomena of samsara have intrinsic existence...
Irrelevant.

>we are trapped because we are ignorant
And this necessarily leads to a life in which you experience suffering, until you can liberate yourself from the cycle.

>>16886953
It's not irrelevant because we crave illusions which change and escape our grasp without fail. Liberation, unfortunately, is not easy and requires decades of meditation, especially in a dark retreat. But this is going down the Buddhist rabbit hole. Frankly, artificial superintelligence will arrive before anyone has time to attain enlightenment, so we can only hope it helps us attain it instead of kills us all or something. But again, I was talking about how Christians thinking suffering is good is gaslighting.

>>16886944
I've dated a few of these types too (used to attend a lot of weird drug parties, and used FetLife for a few years in between LTRs). Many of these girls were far outside the realm of simple spanking. I was engaged to one who wanted waterboarding, and an occasional punch in the face. We would do other things that I don't think I can describe on this board.

I think it is more complicated than pleasure vs. pain for a lot of them, and that the more extreme ones are often trying to purge trauma through re-enacting childhood abuse, or entering states that the abuse generated in them (which is also the case with many sadists, but from the opposite end of course).

I have also noticed, with these more extreme cases, that they have a tendency to build up resentment toward those who fulfill their masochistic fantasies, over time, and that their masochistic urges can even disappear for the most part, after they have participated in a sufficient number of experiences, or a single experience of remarkably high impact.

>>16886996
jeez, didn't think it got that crazy. I still have this belief that the more severe a pain is and the longer it lasts, the more negative value it has and the greater a pleasure is and the longer it lasts, the more positive value it has (with eternal pleasures being the best, which is why religion dominates society, since that's what they advertise). Hedonism in its most enlightened form, basically. So maybe those girls were trying to get over trauma so they could feel better afterwards, that's still hedonism. Going to the gym (suffering now for a greater reward later) is hedonism. I don't think there's any rational argument one can make against it except "short-term pleasures for greater long-term pains is bad" which is not true hedonism anyway. True hedonism is "no human seeks out value/utility by stabbing themselves repeatedly in the eyes with a knife", which is true.

>>16886982
You left a lot of room open for discussing other issues. I spent some years living, meditating, and studying with Buddhists (a mix of Vajrayana, Zen, and Theravada practitioners), so I'm not unfamiliar with these ideas. My point is only that, ultimately, suffering is intrinsic to the cycle of samsara. Most people find their way to a sangha with the purpose of mitigating this suffering, or learning how to exit the cycle. In this sense, suffering is valuable, because it can lead people to the Dharma.

>I was talking about how Christians thinking suffering is good is gaslighting
Carry on. I did not intend to hijack your thread.

>>16887023
my "Dzogchen sage" chatgpt bot agrees with you that suffering has instrumental value in leading people to the Dharma, but also says suffering has no intrinsic positive value. Otherwise, we would not be trying to escape it through Buddhism. The video I posted in the OP, while not perfect (the guy doesn't understand Buddhism fully), makes some really good points on how although suffering teaches you the most valuable lesson, which is that suffering has no value, that doesn't make suffering valuable. He calls it the paradox of suffering.

>>16886996
>>16887012
I'm one of those mentally ill turbo masochistic people (not a girl albeit). It's always been pretty simple for me, somewhere in my head a wire got crossed which made certain types of pain feel good and that's about it. I don't really have any trauma and if I do, these urges preceded it. I agree with the anon calling it hedonism. If it creates positive feelings more so than negative ones, then it's still pleasure-seeking behavior and not suffering in the true sense of the word.

>>16887059
>Although suffering teaches you the most valuable lesson, which is that suffering has no value, that doesn't make suffering valuable. He calls it the paradox of suffering.
I think that accepting and contemplating paradox is an important part of experiencing non-dual states, and is often an essential first step, so this line of reasoning is very nice for me. I try to simplify systems as if working completely outside of them (as much as this is possible) when communicating with others, but we are probably on the same wavelength. I will say that most people (especially 'debate me bro' types and other adamant ego-clingers) have a huge amount of trouble digesting paradox, and that it often catapults them into fits of violent stupidity.

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>experiencing badness is a bad experience
>God wouldn't put me in a bad experience unless it was unavoidable
>so either God is powerless to control his creation or bad experiences are necessary for some reason

bro these were deep questions in 300 BC I guess but this is the moral equivalent of the flat earth debate, catch up man we've moved on

>>16887656
It's still better than many of the other religion-oriented threads on here.

>>16887656
you didn't even give us your opinion on it. people seem to go berserk when I say bad things are bad (or the more extreme version: reality has a flaw and it's called suffering). probably most thinkers are not willing to say creation is flawed, because it just... it just can't be! yet they will try to avoid suffering and seek pleasure because when they take *no* action, like just sit there, they suffer (start to get hungry, etc). So intelligent agents take actions in the world to change the world, proving that the world is not perfect (or we wouldn't need to or want to change it).

>>16886903
Suffering is not good or bad, it is simply inevitable. It should be lessened where possible, but living your whole life or structuring society merely to avoid suffering will cause more suffering in the long run.

>>16887814
Buddhism says it's not inevitable and we can escape it. The efforts of the Buddhas to alleviate the suffering of all sentient beings is not causing more suffering in the long run. Of course, you have to believe in Buddhism to believe any of what I'm saying and the West is mostly christian and believes martyrdom is wise.

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We live in a corrupted world influenced by Satan. However, suffering is what brings us to Christ, Satan would rather have you all cushy, fat, and oblivious so you don't recognize that this is how he operates. Suffering is what God uses to penetrate through the veil of the world and begins guiding you towards where He will show Himself to you. Whether or not you will accept this or perish back into the void of sensuality or apathy that Buddha suggested is up to you.

Suffering is what brings us closer to Christ and through him the Father.

>>16886903
>Suffering is bad
>Suffering is not good
Do you see how these are different statements?

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>>16887797
>you didn't even give us your opinion on it
There's only two opinions on it, "this is unjustifiable" or "eh I'm grateful regardless" and I've never seen anyone switch sides through internet shit flinging. Any argument I could give you is literally thousands of years old, what's the point?

>>16888316
I'm not grateful because I suffer from chronic pain, bad enough that I want to kill myself. Would you be grateful if you were suffering from chronic pain bad enough that you want to kill yourself? Wouldn't you be infuriated with God, that high and mighty all-powerful self-aggrandizing pretentious fuck who doesn't endure suffering yet subjects potentially infinite beings to torturous existences? Well, I've concluded that God is not all-powerful unlike the retarded christian belief. God cannot stop my suffering. This is the only way I can make peace with God. God had better not be able to end my suffering or I'm gonna fucking kill him.

>>16888445
You're just mad and venting. Don't rationalize anger, no conclusions you make are sound, and you know that. One of Christ's apostles had a chronic injury in his hip iirc, limped and winced in pain while going around performing miracles of healing on others. Taught an important lesson on the patience with suffering one ought to have when the eternity we're staring down is properly took into perspective.

>>16886903
Suffering is Inevitable

>>16888462
Ok, furthering my point that God is not omnipotent, he can't create a square circle. He can't prove 1+1=3. He can't do what is logically impossible. Don't you think maybe it's possible that he can't end all suffering and that's why suffering exists? The option you seem to be arguing for is suffering is good. Suffering is bad and you're crazy (and not currently suffering. When you are again, you will agree with me).

>>16888475
>He can't do what is logically impossible.
How am I supposed to agree with an argument that is literally in opposition to logic? "God can't asdfasdasfadfs so that means I'm right" is beyond meaningless, and identifying with meaninglessness is the root of all suffering.

>>16888489
You're too stupid to argue with.

>>16888498
He's really not, and you are projecting like a 12 year old, because -- get this -- you are a 12 year old.

>>16888498
I mean if you think you're smarter than God naturally you'd think you're smarter than anyone else who disagrees with you. What would arguing even accomplish? You're mad 1+1=2, I'm not, what about it?

>>16886903
From a species-level lens, suffering is important. Pain tells us to avoid certain stimuli which will harm us and not allow us to breed, the same way satiation and satisfaction tells us which food is good to eat.

Christian belief that suffering is good I believe stems from this. Suffering tells us that which is bad, and forces us to seek good. When a drunk man suffers the socially and physically deleterious effects of alcoholism, he is suffering because, as Christians believe, God is telling him to seek something better.

That is not to say all suffering has meaning. A broken leg is a broken leg, and torture is torture, but overall I believe it is necessary to have suffering so that we can develop and grow positively.

>>16886903
nope, suffering is great, for 2 reasons:
1) it reminds you that you are fallible, mortal being
2) it keeps you out of your comfort zone and develops resilience