Current head of russian orthodox church is a litteral former KGB agent and tabacoo smuggler.Where did it all go wrong ?
shieet I thought it was an interesting subject althought a bit provocative.Why do you snubb me /his/ ?
>>16887045Daily reminder that the Romanist, Oriental and especially the Palamite church have demonstrably false and historically inaccurate doctrines and interpretations that are completely different from early Christians that were created by theologians centuries after the fact who don't understand the context that the apostles were writing in. So these theologians use different frameworks/hermeneutics/philosophies that are not original and anachronistic to the context of the apostles to get a new meaning from the texts. They do this to justify their church institutions for political and personal gain. "Church Tradition" is a code word for interpreting it 100% wrong all the time.
>>16887570based and protestant pilledbecause certainly us protestants can't be making the exact same mistake right now
>>16887585Protestantism is a vast sphere. The odds of finding a true doctrine are higher with it than with monolithic entities like those mentioned in the post you've replied to.
>>16887499Try it again in a day or two, Im interested to see takes on thisI imagine it's got something to do with the fall of Constantinople but I don't know
>>16887045They were Russians.That’s where it went all wrong.The majority of Jews escaped the Soviet Union at a certain point because they couldn’t take it anymore
>>16887597Wrong
>>16887045>gets kicked out of mount athos>claims he left willingly and doesn’t elaborate why>builds 21 extremely lavish multimillion dollar monasteries in america >no one knows where the money comes from>accusations of cult-like brainwashing and control>him and his virgin closet gay monks demand husbands and wives live as brother and sister>people commit suicide and descend into madness at his compounds>even many within, including priests and clergy of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America say yeah this guy is a cult guru >his followers call him a saintit’s a very strange, ethnic sect and I wish more westerners would get over this shit already
One day the pope was like "I'm gonna excommunicate you if you follow the nicene creed as it was actually written btw give me more money these prostitutes are expensive" and you tribal retards who care more about aesthetics and politics than tradition or theology ooga booga'd right along behind him.
>>16888432>who care more about aesthetics and politics than tradition or theology >muh filioque >muh azymes >muh beardsall the shit the east REEEEEs over is just silly. also>pope bad>elders good
>>16888487>who cares about the nicene creed? just go with it, this politician will send you to hell if you dontblow it out your ass
>>16887045>Where did it all go wrongIt went to shit when the M*scovites usurped it from the Greeks.
>>16888432literally no one follows the original Nicene Creed "the way it's originally written"
>>16888536russian culture is the natural evolution of greek/ruman culturethis is why the ruman empire collapsed as russia now is, btw
>>16888378isn't that seraphim rose?
>>16887045But that's not proven
>>16888378the benefit is that he's not the infallible pope.>>16887045both churches have fucked up adherents but catholic imagery is sensual and extreme and its history is sensual and extreme.kids come out of catholic school as vengeful sadomasochists.>le corrupt leadershipit's polycephalous..as opposed to infallible, corrupt leadership.the reason westerners don't "get over it" is because everything the western mind associates with cruelty and corruption with regard to christianity is derived quite naturally from the mistakes of catholics and protestants.i'm not saying the eastern church hasn't made mistakes but westerners don't know them.
>>16888570no, it’s elder ephraim of arizona. seraphim rose (closet fag) was better but not by much.>muh aerial toll houses
>>16888505get over it already it’s all mumbo jumbo
>>16888674>closet fagFirst of all - what's the optimal, christian way to handle homosexual urges?Secondly - why are you so gay?
>>16888684>why are you so gayyou’re defending a man who admitted being a raging homosexual and became a priest-monk to run to the closet, and who told people demons are going to torture them after death. he even wrote a book about it. yeah I’m gonna trust this larping fag, ok
>>16888690Why wouldn't I defend a guy who hypothetically reacted correctly to his homosexual urges?Is it better to be a "closet murderer" or an actual murderer? The stuff about demons is irrelevant to the topic.
>>16888695I think you just lionize these monks
>>16888710I just choose not to judge people for what goes on in their heads and am skeptical of the accusations of impassioned 4channers.
>>16888733what accusations?
>>16888738The closeted homosexual accusations.
>>16888742in a way you’re right cause the noble hieromonk admitted he was gay, before he became a priest-monk of course. so he ran back into the closet, to be clear. I wonder how much he was tortured in the aerial toll houses he never shut the fuck up about over his faggotry, what do you think?
>>16888756Incredibly bitter and vindictive post. What's the proper way to handle homosexual urges, much less your own bitterness? How did Jesus treat prostitutes and tax collectors?
>>16888763what’s bitter and vindictive about it? I’m just stating facts about your beloved monk man
>>16887045Stupid pic. The Syrians introduced bloody Jesus to the west.
>>16888772how? genuinely curious
>>16888768Why shouldn't I love him? Why shouldn't you? What would Jesus do?
>>16888777by the way the aerial toll houses were just plum made up by another one of your elders that you worship
>>16888788what's an aerial toll house got to do with this discussion about homosexuality and love?how do you know what's "made up" and what isn't?
>>16887045go on x and ask Jay Dyer about that nigga
>>16888799the guy was gay he admitted he was gay period end of story I think the fact that some old monk made up the toll houses and seraphim shilled for them is the bigger problem both with him, your elders you adhere to like charles manson, and your denomination
Good to know Eastern Orthodoxy annoys jews just as much as Catholicism
>>16888799Nothing at all. He's part of the same group that make aggrevation bait towards every mainstream religious group and shits it out on /his/. He won't post any sources to back up his slander
>>16889916>everything I don't like is jewsweird that you follow a semitic religion while saying things like this. The king of the jews wouldn't like that.
>The pope answers to no one Chu-
>>16890002>the king of da joos For the Love of Christ, please read John chapter 18, versus 33 to 36
>>16889905I dont believe thats the end of the story. You say he "closeted" himself and then you say he "admitted" it was his identity, but I dont think you understand what these words mean.Homosexual acts are condemned by christians and homosexual urges are as well. But in christianity what matters is what you do with those urges.Can you provide his words on the subject?I also understand that you dont like his ideas about these things called toll houses but you cant seem to explain why. "He made them up" is a statement that requires some backing up. You can say the same thing about the gospel. It didnt come from the mouth of jesus but that doesnt need to happen. Saints write these things.
>>16890002Well, are you jewish and annoyed?
>>16888053Jews left because they got a shiny new ethostate to murder goyim with
>>16890238Wouldnt you appreciate a state that looks after your ethnic interests the way every other state in previous centuries did, to the existential endangering of jews?
>>16889919I appreciate that. One has to wonder if exposure to consistent argumentation wont seep in eventually.
>>16890210Yes he ran back into the closet when he converted after his relationship with Jon Gregorson. This is not a controversial fringe statement. You just sound like a zealot retard
>>16890502If it isn't fringe then why won't you post a SINGLE source the entire thread?
>>16890506www.google.com, very easy anon
>>16887045Nothing in that image is true lol
>>16887045historylet and brainlet here, did the Western church go through some revolution of some kind in the past? or was the church always so detached and powerful over nations?
>>16890867It's not powerful at all brainlet
>>16890873well i don't mean today. It was definitely very powerful in the middle ages
>>16887045>eastern valuesMore Christian>western JesusMaybe slightly more Christian>Ecclesiastical headsBoth are attempting to usurp power from God and using his name to do it too
>>16890878there were persecutions until constantine the great and then theodosius made it the official religion then byzantine empire was the most powerful empire for about 500 years then franks and catholics made friends and then there was the schism and vatican see kept power over the new empires since they needed a unifying force then protestant reform killed catholicism then atheism killed protestantism and here we are today. only the orthodox church matters now
Eastern christianity is a russian intelligence operation being pushed by useful idiots for the kremlin
>>16887045>Current head of russian orthodox church is a litteral former KGB agentand so is the head of the Orthodox Polish Church. Orthodoxy is corruption to the core.>>16887570all churches are historically inaccurate, the difference between Catholic/Orthodox and Protestantism is that the former has this opinion that they hold the "ancient" ""tradition"" when it certainly what they preach today does not mirror the ancient beliefs. The more we learn about history through archeological findings, more we see that Christianity was nothing like that. Meanwhile Protestantism claims to hold a "reformation" or even "reconstruction" of what was the true faith, but they certainly hold beliefs that are closer to the developments in the Catholic Church more than anything. Protestantism is Augustinianism on steroids.Christianity as it was in the early days is a dead faith, it's not the same religion. In fact, most "Christians" only define themselves as such because that's the religion they grew up with.>>16888378once, back when I was still professing Christianity, I provoked an Orthodox priest asking why certain saints with questionable lives (including those who are probably made up and not real historical people) are so important for some Orthodox, saints that we can't even affirm that they were saved. He simply said "well, which saint to worship is not a doctrinal matter. so let them be worship".Then I realized that Orthodoxy is just like Catholicism "dance along with the song and you are fine, but don't you dare to leave the ballroom!">>16888378>the benefit is that he's not the infallible pope.two wrongs don't make a right.>>16890867Just read about the Investiture Controversy. In a way, just like in the East, the West also had bishops being appointed by kings rather than a Patriarch/Pope. The difference is, the Catholic Church had more political power and basically created the separation of church and state. That lead to the "golden age of papacy"
>>16890970preat
>>16890878Answering you, continuing from >>16890970Basically, we have to go back as early as Charlemagne to understand the relationship between Church and State in the West.In the East, it was symphonia, that in practice means that the church is almost a cabinet of state for the emperor.For example, there are no Orthodox Monarchs nowadays, but for a long time the monarchs were so important for Orthodoxy that they were allowed to stand up and take the bread and wine with their own hands in the altar, because no priest could be above the emperor.In the West, the Franks were very reverential towards the Bishop of Rome, the Pope. And that allowed the Church to amass a lot of power. For example, the Franks made the Church of Rome a landed church with the Pope as a monarch, this is unheard of in the east.The Investitures was a controversy when the HRI emperor was appointing bishops on his volition without consulting the pope. Appointing bishops meant secular influence while appointing the Pope too, so the Church was under a lot of political influence. A certain pope wanted to drain the swamp and said that only the pope could appoint fellow bishops. The story is long, having some antipopes popping up but the church wins this one in the end. That was around the 12th century.The period inaugurates the triumph of Papacy, especially because we would have a period of crisis in Europe by that moment (black death, "little ice age", wars) and people would resort to the pope as monarchs seemed weak. So Papacy was popular and after the crisis, we have Renaissance, which will be the period of massive power of the popes.The popes will be crucial in the great navigations since he will be working closely with the Portuguese and Spanish.The excessive power of the popes will upset many people, so you have religious uprisings. The golden age of papacy will take a heavy blow by the Reformation and come to end by the time of the the 30 Years War.
>>16891041>t. learned history from his pedophile priest
>>16890970We've hit full russophobia when someone can't be a Christian because they worked with the Russian government
Orthodoxy is like the most intellectually barren of all major world religions. Not a single notable piece of theology, not a single intellectual idea, a notable clergyman or thinker ever came out of it. It's mostly just a rote performance of rituals and little more than that.
>>16891055I'm not Catholic at all, been in the church for a lesser glorious time of my life, but most of my days were me being brainwashed by Calvinists. Nowadays I have no religion.Like I was saying, the power of the popes brought religious uprising (Waldensians, Lollards, Hussites and finally, Luther and Calvin) because the catholic church is not just a corrupt institution, it's THE MOST CORRUPT INSTITUTION IN HISTORY. That makes Orthodoxy less corrupt? Hell no! It's even worse.What? Do you think they lost it all because the Arabs were too powerful? Nah, they were too busy with weak emperors trying to kill each other for power and the Arabs and Turks had their way.>>16891076>We've hit full russophobia when someone can't be a Christian because they worked with the Anti-Christian Soviet governmentfixed for ya>>16891077yup, it's all about saying magic words in greek and doing a number of rituals. we have this orthodox surge nowadays but I think it's just a fad. I mean, orthodoxy doesn't even hold relevance in Russia, Romania, Greece and such. It's like being German and Lutheran and saying "my parents used to come to this church, I was baptized and married here, so I come here every now and then". People don't believe this stuff at all.
>>16891089>>We've hit full russophobia when someone can't be a Christian because they worked with the Anti-Christian Soviet governmentSome of our greatest saints were once sinners. St Augustine used to cheat on his wife and then he abandoned her.
>>16891096You can believe whatever you want, you are free to do so. But don't push me that these guys actually hold their office out of faith and sincere heart.I mean, I believe that even the ones who have a "clean religious CV" most often don't believe these shenanigans. Any powerful church is a political institution first and before everything else.
>>16891102>Any powerful church is a political institution first and before everything else.You don't want me to push a narrative of sincerity but you're going to push your own narrative of absolute universal corruption. Examine yourself.
>>16891112No, I do not view "absolute universal corruption".Everyone seeks power. At least some are sincere about it and don't play the "for the greater good" card. Your church leaders hides its lust for power behind a cloth of meekness and asceticism.
>>16891133>I do not view "absolute universal corruption".>>16891102>Any powerful church is a political institution first and before everything else.>Any powerful church>these guys>Everyone seeks powerAre you projecting? They need resources to save souls. It's not that hard of a formula from their perspective. It's a wonder why they don't grab more resources and become more political to complete the mission.>Your church leadersI'm not Orthodox. I'm not even Christian. Examine yourself.
>>16891150>They need resources to save soulsthat's not in line with their own religion since Christ had nothing.>It's a wonder why they don't grab more resources and become more political to complete the mission.But then you are implying they have a mission. I talked to a Russian Orthodox priest, he basically said that the church should not spread, that the "great commission" was an one time thing given to the apostles and therefore the church don't need to preach the gospel to save more souls.All my opinions about this church is based on experience talking to a couple of priests and a dozen of followers.It's about power. Just read the history of the Orthodox Church, it's undeniable that it always was a cabinet of state for Constantinople and then Moscow.
>>16887045Wow. As a catholic I'm just not gonna let you insult the eastern traditions of Christianity. Do you realise they were catholic traditions before the schism? sorry but eastern icones are sick and their tradition is far richer than submitting to the authorities
>>16890502Hypothetically speaking - Knowing this, what is the Christian reaction? Do you embrace homosexuality or do you put it away? It sounds to me like he did exactly what you're supposed to do, and that he helps others to do the same. That's not a hateful thing at all. That's commendable.Did you know that Jesus broke bread with sinners and helped them repent? That's the whole point. If being a "zealot retard" (no judgement lmao >>16888768 ) means forgiving sinners and hearing good advice, then I can only hope to nurture and develop such instincts.I'm not saying it's controversial or fringe, but that I'm skeptical of new information received from impassioned, judgemental weirdos.>>16890823that's called a search engine. it's not a source. it's actually beneficial for you to post a real source so that you can defend yourself consistently.
>>16890970quality post overall>including those who are probably made up and not real historical peopleyou bring up a very good, often overlooked point. countless of these people are missing from the historical records and their alleged biographies read like very convenient theological fiction>Polish Orthodox Churchshould be called “Russian Orthodox Church in Poland” cause that’s what it is, there is even a black eagle on their official emblem >this opinion that they hold the "ancient" ""tradition"" when it certainly what they preach today does not mirror the ancient beliefs.tradition is not history. like when they say georgia and ethiopia and assyria were christianized very early on prior to constantine, no, they weren’t. “muh tradition” is meaningless in reality. and many of these Orthodox like the jackass in this thread who can’t accept stone cold facts about a certain california convert hieromonk put these elders on a pedestal even above their alleged man-god. they are infallible to them.
>>16891077the last time I attended an orthodox liturgy was the feast of lazarus. i was in florence at the time, and I decided to check out the greek church that was nearby where I was staying. I had not attended an orthodox liturgy in a couple years. it was literally three full hours of old ladies chanting in greek and italian and the priest walking around in circles. it was more of a performance than anything else. I left saying to myself>that’s enough orthodoxy for me
>>16890939Orthodoxy isn't papal - the different regions don't have to answer to Russia the way Catholics do to the Vatican.
>>16890970>I provoked an Orthodox priest asking why certain saints with questionable livesThat's not provocative at all. Saints are saints because they repented for their questionable lives. It's not about where you start, but where you finish.
>>16890970>>the benefit is that he's not the infallible pope.>two wrongs don't make a right.That's not the argument, though. The argument is that the orthodox have the correct orientation toward corruption by not treating corrupt people as infallible.
>>16891160>that's not in line with their own religion since Christ had nothing.Christ didn't need resources to save souls. That's why he's Christ, and they would insist why he was part divine.>But then you are implying they have a missionNot even a little. You can entertain an idea without accepting it. For understanding the motives of others, it's absolutely necessary.>I talked to a Russian Orthodox priest, he basically said that the church should not spreadOkay. Seems like a non-sequitur. Following your previous point, I take it you expected some rebuttal? If that's what he thinks his job is, that's what it is. I've known three Orthodox priests and they all had different views even among each other, but there are a large number of ideas on the subject. A camel through the eye of a needle, and all that. >Just read the history of the Orthodox ChurchThey had synarchy as a result of requirements by the Russian Imperial government. Symphonia, they called it. One of the priests I spoke to said he was against the idea, but for the life of me I can't see why. I suppose he was avoiding politicking. The historical purpose was to align politics and society and forge a nation for Christian peoples.>It's about powerYou are still putting the cart before the horse. They need resources to do their jobs, like anyone else. To do a bigger job, you need more resources, and religions that proselytize have a tall order. Now let me tell you, I used to be an Episcopalian and watched that church elect a black man in their head office and a head of public affairs who is a female Mexican American and in short order the church turned around and established a myriad of funds for intersectional personalities. Scholarships, funds, general charity- only to be applied to non-whites, non-males. They used the churches coffers to support their social agendas. That was corruption. I know what you're talking about, but what I see the Orthodox churches do is nothing near that order.
>>16887045caesaropapism(unsure if it's been posted already in the thread)
>>16891234>Not even a little. You can entertain an idea without accepting it. For understanding the motives of others, it's absolutely necessary.>>16891160I actually misread through this part, I thought you said I was on their mission too, but the rest of it still holds up. Priests have a lot of leeway in what they think, contrary to reddit atheismos views of Christianity.
>>16891089>I think it's just a fadoccidental ortholarpers don’t even bother to look up modern church attendance statistics in orthodox countries especially the Slavic ones, and have spent no time amongst eastern Slavs at all, they are just larping. I am very surprised that Western Orthodoxy / Western Rite Orthodoxy / Anglo-Orthodoxy has not really taken root in this fad yet, it is the zenith of non-easterners pretending to be orthodox, pic related, some claim England was totally orthodox and Harold Godwinson was defending english orthodoxy and is a passion bearer. I have only ever seen one Western Orthodox institution, in upstate New York, I don’t even think it was a church I think it was some type of shrine. I wish I went to it for research purposes
>>16891241I feel like the Pope was tired of getting called a power grabber so he made up the term to attack othersNo evidence, it just reeks of Catholic background.
>>16891191you can type all that multiple times and screech but you can’t go to google and type “seraphim rose gay” huh? I have to do it for you? go back to r*ddit where playing that card is a sick pwn
>>16891248as far as i know they're all terminally online incels who think Orthodoxy will get them a virginal 16 year old Slav tradwife in a white dress in a wheat field
>>16891193>stone cold facts about a certain california convert hieromonk put these elders on a pedestal even above their alleged man-god.Again - what is the correct Christian response to repentance?
>>16891249>EtymologyFrom caesar + -o- + papism,[1] probably modelled after New Latin caesaro-papia, coined by the German ecclesiastical jurist Justus Henning Böhmer (1674–1749) in his work Jus ecclesiasticum Protestantium (Ecclesiastical Law of the Protestants, 1714–1736).[2][3]he was a prod, I think
>>16891258not concerned, couldn’t care less. I gave up your jew god-man and his corrupt ahistorical drivel a long time ago
>>16891234>Christ didn't need resources to save souls.The gospel is full of people who fed and supported both him and his disciples.Jesus was both fully man and fully god. In being fully human, he used human resources and "needed" things like air and water, which it seems, he chose not to manifest, in order to give human beings a free choice to supply them. But then that's also why his sacrifice was possible. He couldn't have died if his human nature didn't need things.The human beings who continue to maintain his church continue to need resources. God provides.Are you a christian?
>>16891254I can, but I don't. Why do I need to?I can also lie, but I don't.
>>16891282>Are you a christian?No.
>>16891282repeat the dogma harder goy
>>16891286>Why do I need to?cause you’re very demanding of a source for these facts as if they’re some esoteric hidden thing when you can find out for yourself in mere seconds instead of making childish demands. it’s not my fault or my problem that you refuse to accept such things. figure it out for yourself man
>>16891256assuming makes an ass of u and mi.there's no need to be this mad and vengeful about people literally giving you the time of day and the benefit of the doubt. you can make an actual case here. you can show a willingness to be reconciled with others.>but i won't be reconciled with sinners!then you can make an effort with love to guide them to repentance.if you're a christian that is, and not a hateful, possessed weirdo.
>>16891268if you weren't concerned about repentance or god himself, that would explain a lot.>>16891289you can make mistakes and you can be forgiven, it's a beautiful thing.>>16891293i haven't really demanded a source, i've just been skeptical of your phrasing.nevertheless i've repeatedly given you the benefit of the doubt so we could confront the issue of the man's character head on.let's say you were right and he "was gay" - what would be the righteous course of action from there?
>>16887045>we may be in communion with universally condemned heretics like Nestorians and monophysites, claim Muslims and Hindus follow the same God as us, allow for the blessing of gay couples, admit papal supremacy is an accretion that we're actively trying to brush under the rug, openly follow the heresy of the filioque despite agreeing to several councils to not add it to the creed and are in communion with churches who venerate saints like Photius and Gregory Palamas, have a homosexual epidemic in seminaries and clergy, and believe in lunatic "saints" who threw themselves down wells and thought they were girlfriends of Jesus... but at least we're hecking aesthetic and don't have communist agents as bishops (except when we did)!Being a tradcath must really be a pathetic existence when all you can rely on is aesthetics and MilitantThomist tier arguments to defend your faith. I will pray for all of you.
>>16891320I am concerned with God himself. You k not concerned with your faggot elders or your kike man-god. >let's say you were right and he "was gay" - what would be the righteous course of action from there?first of all accept he was gay. just accept it. look it up yourself and accept it already. secondly, I don’t believe there’s a particular “righteous course of action”, but it’s more admirable to just accept being gay than to convert to a foreign religion and become a monk to run away from it, and having the audacity to tell others what to do with their lives and they will be tortured by demons after they die. it would have been much more noble to just live a gay life. there’s your answer you wanted so bad. in fact, I would say eugene rose was a coward for what he did.
>>16891343yes I know I made a typographical error calm down I’m sure you’re bursting at the seems to point it out
>>16891296>if you’re not a christian you’re weird and possessed!You’re disgusting
>>16891350Well no, I talk with non-christians all the time and we get along great. Many pagan philosophers and ordinary people were inspired and exemplary human beings. Heroes have existed for eons. But you're not those people.The reason I used those words to describe you, specifically, is because you're totally emotionally possessed.
>>16891193>you bring up a very good, often overlooked point. countless of these people are missing from the historical records and their alleged biographies read like very convenient theological fictionYes, one example that I'm fond of is Thaïs of Alexandria. As most of those ancient hagiographies, it's very morbid (a courtesan converts and then she is locked in a cell for years until death). However, the similarities between another Thaïs that was a courtesan of Alexander and burned Persepolis is noticeable.>>16891193>“muh tradition” is meaningless in reality.Yes, it is all made up. Then we see guys like Pageau defending the "dog headed saint" with sophisms about tradition being this concept between "reality" and "myth", but all I see is a modern mind trying to convey rationally something that superstitious people from yore actually believed. They weren't saying "it's a symbol to celestial realities", they actually believe that there was a dog-headed guy that converted to Christianity and that's it.>>16891216>it was literally three full hours of old ladies chanting in greek and italian and the priest walking around in circles. it was more of a performance than anything else.Yeah, it's like some "mystery cult" that we read texts about ancient hellenic religion. Some apologists will say something about it being a "tuning in with the celestial realm". But well, I particularly been three times to an Orthodox liturgy and I felt emptiness.>muh beauty connects to godyeah, it's also beautiful to see an orchestra playing, a ballet or watching a good performance of a shakespearean play. Secular art can also produce fiery sentiments and come out of it inspired, changed and clear-headed. However, I'll be honest and tell you straightforward that every time I've been to a liturgy, I just wanted to get done with it.
>>16891343I'm interested in treating people decently, so please be nicer. It actually takes a lot of discipline to be a monk, of any faith, and so I think they're yet more deserving of patience and understanding, whether or not someone happens to worship them.the reason i'm skeptical of your phrasing, apart from your language generally being cruel, is this -christians don't usually talk about homosexuality as an identity - meaning, like it's a thing that you "are" or "were". they usually say things like "i struggled-" or "I struggle with homosexuality".which is fine, actually. human beings are fucked up and there are much worse things to struggle with. what christians believe actually matters is what you do with your bad impulses.and yes, we believe homosexality is a bad impulse.and among impulses, the sexual drive is potentially the most overpowering in a man, and so making an effort to control it is actually heroic, not cowardly at all. it's hard work, my friend.caving in isn't a noble thing.i know that suffering happens on the other side of nobility as well. but suffering alone doesn't make you right.
>>16891248>and have spent no time amongst eastern Slavs at allHere is my experience with a Russian Orthodox I met when I was going to an Antiochian Parish. He is an expat and this is a mid-sized town and said that he was an "amateur missionary" too.>"hey man, since you are russian, have you seen this statement by medvedev about nuking warsaw, crazy right?">yes, he replied, poles are so racist and they stepped the line>wdym i ask>so he goes on saying how great was communism for poland>and how much poles should be thankful for russia but they choose to write mean things online about poor poor russia>so i reply yeah but nuking over online comments is bad isn't it>no he says because racism and hitler and what not, we have bunkers in russia>whatabout le christ, i said>christ approves, he concludes it and i stop replyingIt's fucked up.I also used to talk to this russian girl online, she was like 35 and not married and totally digging on me. She also larped as an orthodox, posting pictures in church and all. but one day she started to talk shit about poland and how evil they are I said "well, Katyn". She blocked me saying I am a spreader of western propaganda.I studied in Poland and have many friends in there, that's why I casually bring Poland as a subject, and as you can see, the Russian Orthodox don't see Poles as brothers at all.To the point that it's funny to see catholics saying "oh, my based Orthodox frens!" having no clue what the Orthodox out west thinks about Catholics/Protestants.
>>16891256I've been to an online orthodox catechism and I tell you: they are like this.Most were men, some clueless middle aged housewives and two girls that were being simped beyond oblivion.I obviously didn't stay there for long.
>>16891431the whole point of church is that it's for people who sin. and everyone sins. you don't go to be with the cool kids.
>>16891397>every time I've been to a liturgy, I just wanted to get done with it.lol, same. I even felt like a moron as he priest walked around in circles and we all had to slowly turn our bodies around like in resident evil, and bow to him. It did feel empty.>no0oOoo it’s MYSTICAL!!!whatever
>>16891417some people are gay
>>16891479I left because doctrine was silly. The prayers and all the ritualistic was a waste of time and pure LARP.And honestly, I don't even believe in jewish fairytales anymore. I was just coping in a hard time of my life, thought a hardcore church would be the solution and didn't take long to realize that it's all bullshit and it's better to live with pain.>>16891512>we all had to slowly turn our bodies around like in resident evilkek that's exactly it.>It did feel empty.precisely me. "what am I doing here again?"
>>16891427I grew up in the largest post-Soviet immigrant community in America, as a Polish American with roots in the kresy wschodnie. I am not surprised at all by what you are saying. I dated many Russian girls and they all made sure to tell me how Russians were “the main Slavs” and so much better than Poles
>>16891525I empathize with you completely. I now realize and accept that I wasted years and years of my life on meaningless rituals and the larp. and I still always felt out of place. I even took up icon painting, taught myself how to prepare boards from scratch and gild. in the end it did jack shit for me and it was a waste of time.
>>16891538>>16891525I know, I know. You didn't get your virginal Slav tradwife in a white dress in a wheat field which is really what you thought you'd get.
>>16891543yeah that must be it
>>16891543first off if Russian anons on /int/ are to be believed there are no virginal females there older than 12 anyway
>>16891562this, it’s true. they also get abortions like it’s a bodily function.
Orthodoxy in NA is pretty retarded in general. On one hand you've got these converts, they tend to congregate in convert-heavy churches and avoid the ethnic ones because they get bullied out pretty quick. On the other you have ethnic churches which are rapidly dying because cradles simply don't give a shit. The converts as a whole are not even close to replacing the cradles so Orthodoxy in NA is shrinking despite what online trads say. It's pure cope, Orthodoxy in NA is shrinking rapidly and is already tiny and largely irrelevant in the NA religious landscape.It will also never be unified, all the difference churches (GOA, Antiochians, OCA, ROCOR) will never merge because despite the piousness of the converts, they are all ran by Old World ethnic clubs that are corrupt as fuck and engage in the exact type of abusive shit you see in the catholic church. Yes that's right, you slowly hear more and more confimations of pederasty and shit like that at the highest levels. There is no money in a unified NA church, so there won't be.But all that is not relevant to the truth of the religion, right? I more or less saw it as bullshit once I started the classes. The problem of hell, the problem of a completely overarching God and human free will, the core issue of it all being jewish. These are all theological problems with Christianity in general, but Orthodoxy specifically too. The hypocrisy in their teachings on one hand, and what they say and do in both church and the classes is stark. So much just ranting bullshit about Prots, saying lovey shit like "we don't know, just pray for them" and on the other loving shit like the Anathema chants which is really condemning someone to hell for having opinions you don't like.It was all super gay. You have to load up on a fuckton of copes to make it work, even more if you are a convert in the west.
>>16891543EXACTLY, most of the converts i see don't really give a shit about theology or understanding or even spiritually... What they wanna know is "Is the church based ? Does it forbidden trannies from using the woman's bathroom?"
>>16891591that and trad pussy.doesn't exist, not really. But don't tell these 19 year old converts that.
>>16891591No sane person does this. Orthodoxy is tied to the nation. The most serious church is the russian orthodox church and it's a pure joke of a religion based on worshipping the Russian state. According to them if you kill orthodox ukrainians you will go to heaven and the same applies to ukrainian orthodox church. But the joke doesnt stop there. You cannot have american orthodox church or austrian orthodox church but you have to accept your status as a religius colony and be a part of russian or greek Orthodox church or serbian in case of austrians. So dumb americans worship an entity of another nation completely controlled by politicians
>>16891608There were several plans to establish an "American orthodox church" absorbing all dioceses in NA, ironically enough it was the Russians who wanted to give the American church independence but the Greeks and Antiochians fucked it all up.
>>16891611One more point like you said is political scheming and letting other countries decide who gets to have an orthodox church and who doesn't. Any time churches separate they excommunicate each other. Ukraine russia , serbia Montenegro etc. Even if tomorrow all croats decided to become orthodox we would never get an independent ortodox church due to "politics" and serbs because its totally rational for croatia slovenia and austria to fall under serbian Orthodox church. There is a croatian ortodox church but it isnt recognized go figure because they dont hate their own country and dont consider themselves serbs.
And this to all ortholarpers: The entire idea of orthodoxy is sucking priests cocks.Priests in my cunt tell people that they shouldn't read the bible because they might misunderstand it.
>>16891629>Priests in my cunt tell people that they shouldn't read the bible because they might misunderstand it.Catholics do that where I live too
>>16891629Do you still go to divine liturgy? I still go but i don't know for how much longer.
>>16891642I used to go when I was a kid and that was a long time ago. When I started growing up I read and understood more realized that most of the priests were actually ex-criminals or simply people who tried to make a living. Most of the people that actively follow the church are gangsters that believe stealing from someone and giving part of it to some fat rich priest will cleanse their sins.
>>16891608To be fair to you, I think its pretty obvious that the Ortho church is a bunch of ethnic cliques. That’s how it is with most churches that broke from the Catholic faith early on. Even some associated Catholic churches suffer from the same problem, Chaldean and Armenian churches come to mind. They serve one ethnicity. It has it benefits and drawbacks I suppose. Hostility to outsiders allowed them to survive in Muslim dominated lands, but now it segregates them in Christian majority countries and limits their growth.At least in Russia, the Ortho church serves the interests of the Russian people and their leader.
>>403325593Orthcucks created nothing of value in their whole history. They lost their headquarters to muslims, their art is shit, they hardly spread their religion outside of 1 corner of Europe, their leaders are decentralised nobodies, their holidays are ignored by he global zeitgaist. All around failures.
Every time I watch Catholic and Orthodox streams or sermons, they spend 95% of the time talking about philosophy, church histories, commentaries, politics, and never do integrated Bible studies and when they do talk about the Bible they'll take like 1 or two isolated verses and then go back into talking about philosophy and the writings of some obscure monk from like the 9th century.
>>16887045Has nobody noticed that OP’s pic is likening the Anglican Archbishop pf Canterbury to the Pope?
>>16891611a Russian also responsible for the advent of so-called “Western Rite Orthodoxy” in the early 20th century, to try to shill yo Anglos. I believe it was Tikhon? and he told the tsar about this genius plan and it was approved
>>16891623There’s a Celtic Orthodox Church too. There’s a French Orthodox Church, there is “Appalachian Orthodoxy” in America now, it’s all nonsense
>>16891629I like when orthodox priests get furious when you try to read Revelation. Try it for yourself, tell one of them you were reading it, they’ll flip out
>>16891666>the writings of some obscure monk from like the 9th century.They care more about these alleged monks and purported saints who have very little of any historical truth to even their existence than they do about anything else, their Jesus, the Bible, literally anything
Catholicism is a terrible religion that serves Satan, but they're generally transparent when it comes to doctrine. Most questions can be answered by the baltimore catechism. Although there will always be some faggot claiming that without an excathedra statement by the pope nothing is official.Orthodoxy takes a different approach. They're very big on rituals, but part of making sure that the autocephalous heads don't get in fights is not to create a paper trail. So take for example Roman Catholic teaching on birth control and abortion. It is rigorously defined and justified to the point where with the exception of a few disingenuous individuals (that Jesuit in Chicago comes to mind) a Catholic priest is capable of saying "The church says x,y,z. about birth control and abortion". This wouldn't work in Orthodoxy because they don't operate that way. They'll talk to you about liturgical practice and prayer, but when it comes to a moral teaching they shrug because the Greek patriarch knows that if he articulates his thoughts too far on the matter a patriarch from Moscow might accuse him of overstepping his boundaries.
>>16891688the different approach is that because they are a schismatic sect composed of national churches in and out of communion with eachother, they have no dogma and cannot make a definitive statement regarding dogma. they cannot even come up with a coherent explanation for the church hierarchy, and so they make blanket statements like church father teachings, the councils, whatever that means, the saints, etc.in my experience these ortholarpers on the web today are Americans who have converted to "orthodoxy" from their Southern Baptist upbringing because they have authority issues.notice how no one here is going to tell you about the fact that the patriarch of constantinople is a joke office that has been for 600 years or about meletius metazakis
>>16891335>Muslims worship the same GodI mean technically, the idea is they follow a VERY misunderstood/twisted idea of Him>Literally everything elseSources cited: crack pipe, stereotypical southern bible thumping pastor, voices inside head
>>16891775yeah your conception of the jew god is better than abdul’s conception of the jew god you rock
>>16891841what difference does it make which ethnicity reveals the truth to you?your morality is derived from greeks, italians, and germans. your technology from japan and china.it is what it is.
>>16891522that's not what i'm contesting.the issues here are:1) how the monk phrased it2) how he should've (and did) address it
>>16891662what does a butthurt rant like this accomplish for you
>>16891629when you're this belligerent and prideful, that's a guarantee.you need it to be taught to you.
>>16890867As the Roman Empire fractured, the State Church fractured with it. As the Roman State still existed in the Eastern Mediterranean, the State Church naturally remained a part of it, answering to the Emperor like it always had since Emperor Constantine had consolidated the loose confederation of local church leaders that was early Christianity, with his well defined and bureaucratized State Church. The Western Bishoprics on the other hand, were left in the lurch, as the complete destruction and absence of the Roman Empire in the West left them with no State for them to be the State Church of. This led to the Bishop of Rome, who had become by far the most powerful and influential western bishop, and already more or less who all the other Western Bishops looked to for leadership, to take for himself the Emperors position as "Head of the Church" and Pontifex Maximus. Wherein he reorganized the Western bishoprics into a kind of "State without a State" with himself replacing the Emperor as the man in charge. Now of course this didn't happen all at once, and the long years of fracturing meant both groups diverged from each other on several theological issues even before they formally denounced each other.
>>16891894he was a coward who ran away from himself to a foreign institution because he couldn’t deal with being gay, then spent the rest of his life repressing his homosexual urges by telling laypeople how to live. that’s it. I’m not playing this game with you anymore holy roller
>>16891931>from himselfthis is the identity issue we're talking about.if you "are" a pedophile, is it cowardly to resist the urge to molest kids? are you really "running away from yourself" by repressing bad urges?
>>16891931>couldn’t deal with being gaySeems to me he dealt with it better than most. Didn't sleep around. Didn't get veneral disease. Didn't get violent and bitter. Helped others to figure out the truth about homosexuality.
>>16892117>>16892120he could have been a genocidal despot who became an orthodox monk and you’d still rationalize it somehow
>>16892170It's simply forgiveness. You use it too. True it gets more complex with matters of murder and rape, because these behaviors are riskier to forgive. But just like you say - facts are facts.If you STOP doing a specific sin, and you help others to stop - both you and the whole world are better off.Even if you were a prostitute, a homosexual, or just rude.I'm starting to wonder if there's someone you have trouble forgiving, and that's why I'm having to deal with your nastiness now. The ability to forgive and to repent makes worlds of difference to people. It kind-of turns us into buddhas, if you'll forgive a non-christian analogy.
>>16887045The Pope functioned alongside the various governments of Western Europe, the Patriarch of Constantinople was meanwhile just a figure needed for the emperor to concentrate both civil and religious authority in his hand. The fact the church was so successful at that is also a reason for why did Rome adapt Christianity btw. but that's another separate topic.As such the foundational thing about eastern christianity is that it's just an arm of the state while for Catholicism it was a separate power structure outside of the state. Part of the reason for why was the reformation so successful is that some German princes decided to harbour the protestants as a card against churches influence and the fact of the establishment of national churches(Lutheran Church of Sweden, Church of England etc.) reflects the fact that the eastern model was replicated outside of the east eventually.The interaction between the church and politics in the middle ages is full of weird things, for instance they often encouraged pogroms of German settlers in Poland during 13th and 14th century. At this point its hard to even figure out why.
It's just more traditional this way
>>16892197you sound like a woman, you know like when they say anything they don’t like hearing is just mean and nasty
>>16892231Well I'm sorry but that's a mean and nasty thing to say.
>>16892239>everything I don’t like is mean and nasty lol so are you a woman or just gay like eugene rose
>>16892243You need to grow up, lad. Everyone's done embarrassing stuff. I was much worse than you.
>>16891256>will get them a virginal 16 year old Slav tradwife in a white dress in a wheat fieldPretty sure the tradlarping subculture has largely died out
>>16891654yet putin seems to suck up to muslims and jews and kyrill parroting what he says
>>16888674I don’t know how anyone takes the man seriously considering his view on the toll houses?Is it because he held a lot of extreme views and TradLARPers associate being strict & even downright harsh with being “traditional”? Or is there something I’m missing. I’ve read a little bit from nihilism but I couldn’t get into him after I found out what he believed about the TollHouses and that he knew of its pagan connects.
>>16890857HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAimagine unironically believing this.
>>16891688Nice dubs.>Orthodoxy takes a different approach. They're very big on rituals, but part of making sure that the autocephalous heads don't get in fights is not to create a paper trail. They are failing on the not getting into fights bit, but you are correct that the Palamite churches have virtually not systematic theology. Put 5 Palamite priests in a room and ask them to answer to basic question about theology and you will get 5 different answers + an additional answer of “it’s a mystery”.That’s why it’s sadly correct to compare Palamite churches more to ethnic clubs because they don’t really have any unified theology other than calling themselves “orthodox” and “luv icons, ate the filiqoue”.
>>16891397>They weren't saying "it's a symbol to celestial realities", they actually believe that there was a dog-headed guy that converted to Christianity and that's it.How do you know?Besides people back weren't any more stupid or smart than we are today, so aren't you being a little uncharitable to claim they actually completely took this at face value...>>16891585>The problem of hellWhat is it?>he problem of a completely overarching God and human free willdidn't Augustine (and later CS Lewis) solve that?>the core issue of it all being jewishthe jews of the time of today have barely anything to do with the jews from the time of Christalso does it really matter if Truth comes from the desert or the moon?
>>16887045Orthodox church in Russia was always in the earthly ruler’s pocket, for example in tsarist era, orthodox priests were basically an extension of tsarist surveillance. It’s telling that when commies took over Russia, not many regretted the priests getting BTFO’d, while in Poland people had much more sympathy for their Catholic priests.
>>16893973>It’s telling that when commies took over Russia, not many regretted the priests getting BTFO’dI heard a lot of propaganda from Western cunts decrying USSR anti-religion campaigns but Russians themselves had quite different take on it.
>>16892965>strict, harshAllowing yourself to hear hard facts because they're true, and confessing hard facts because they're true, is what faith is about.
>>16893973Thats why prince vladimir chose orthodoxy over catholicism. in catholicism, the pope had more authority than the king, but vladimir wanted all of the power for himself, so he chose orthodoxy where he would appoint his own pet patriarch.for better or worse, the catholic system had some checks and balances that prevented the same level of absolutism as in orthodox kingdoms. this is why the byzantine empire and russia were so corrupt.
>>16893991Okay cool, and the hard truth is there is no scriptural basis for the toll houses.There is no evidence for the toll houses in the church fathers.There is however evidence the toll houses is just a repackaged gnostic idea from the Mandaeans.It fundamentally undermines the gospel message and if Serephim Rose seriously believed what he seemed to about the toll houses then I don’t think it would be right to even call him Christian.
>>16894349>okay coolit's no small thing to admit. you need to quit shooting messengers when they say scary things.The scriptural bases for "toll houses" comes from numerous parables Jesus spoke of regarding tax collectors. The allegory is used to motivate people to repent. We are all tempted to justify our sins and to belittle their importance. This toll house metaphor is meant to shake us from our complacency. So, if toll houses sound horrifying to you, then you understand the warning that has been mentioned by numerous saints since the time of Justin Martyr.The teaching has been universal in the Orthodox Church for over 1,500 years.
>>16893271>>16893271>How do you know?If he was a man, people would say he was a man.>Besides people back weren't any more stupidExactly. And no one nowadays believe in dog headed men. But people believe in con artists.>or smarterso if the symbology of a dog-headed man is a "smart" trick, then it was made by people like me and you>so aren't you being a little uncharitable to claim they actually completely took this at face value...In history, we must be faithful to the source document first, then we criticize it. This is historiography 101.Since we have no precedents of "symbolic saints", only "real saints", then we can imply the medieval peasant actually held the belief that "dude had a dog head and Jesus saved him".It's just like bible stories for protestants. Everyone back then, including the reformers, interpreted the 7-day creation, the flood and the "young earth" as realities. The exceptions to the rule are few and often "unorthodox" in belief.
>>16891256Its kind of crazy how many trad online movements go back to not having a gf. If the average trad online person have had a gf would the trad movement even be a thing?
>>16894618That's called an ad hominem attack.No, having a girlfriend is not a prerequisite for saying anything true.No, being a virgin does not disqualify your opinions.This is why celibate monks exist. The world is obsessed with sex and uses it to justify all manner of cruelty.
>>16894618"Have sex" should be the 11th commandment.
>>16894624Here. That was a fast reply.Let us laugh at the incel virgin, brothers.
>>16894349>no evidence for the toll houses in the church fathers.Justin, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, believed that, in general, the saved did not enter heaven until Judgment Day.Tertullian wrote that, even before final judgment, a soul "undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory"
>>16894630You're free to be as petty and superficial as you want. If you want wisdom and respect, you can choose a more disciplined path.
>>16894627According to?
>>16894624Its not ad hominem anon, its more like analysis and history.Anon, im Christian myself and i also have been online for a long time. I seen the development of this movements, you can almost trace a line between anons sadposting about not having a gf to right wing online movements down the line. Even pepe and wojack, which became so common as memes in this spaces were once a variation of memes about no gf.What im saying is broadly a lot of online right wing movements were fueled by a growing frustration that online anons and other groups had with not finding a women (among other issues like wokeness/sjws etc)Apologies if it came off like that, what i meant is more about the broad history of online right wing trad movements.
>>16894665Doesn't matter your religion.Man is supposed to constitute relationship with a woman.Homosexuality happens when one is not in touch with both side of the scales (male self, feminine other and vice versa)It's simple as. That's nature.
>>16894615>fedora tippers are literally all crypto-communistsNta anon and i didn't really read your full comment, but i have to disagree with this claim specifically, the type of person that was the stereotype of the fedora tipper was usually a libertarian, reddit which was were a lot of this types were during the late 2000s and early 2010s, were all for Ron Paul.
>>16894680Ok, but thats not what im talking about. Im talking about the history of online right wing movements.
>>16894665That some people allow sexual frustration to rule them is not sufficient to reject the ability for celibate people to say something true."You are single therefore you are wrong" is an ad hominem attack.
>>16894665>Apologies if it came off like that, what i meant is more about the broad history of online right wing trad movements.I appreciate that you elaborated on this but you're not "noticing incels" without purpose. You and the guy you quoted are trying to damn the current movement toward orthodoxy by associating it with mad virgins.
>>16894692that wasn't the original person you addressed your response about the ad hominem to, by the way.
>>16894636>Justin, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, believed that, in general, the saved did not enter heaven until Judgment Day.Okay cool……. completely unrelated to the topic and hand but nice that you know that.>Tertullian wrote that, even before final judgment, a soul "undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgmentUh huh, and?
>>16894680>Man is supposed to constitute relationship with a woman.You're going to have to back that up. Men and women can grow alongside each other without sexual union.As a christian, you can point to Adam being around before eve, and you can point to christ's own celibacy.As a non-christian, you can point to calibates and eunuchs making positive impacts on society throughout history.
>>16894702Im not trying to do that, im talking about the history of the online trad right wing anon. Maybe this was the wrong thread to bring it up on.>>16894710Maybe this was just the wrong thread to bring this up on, since its not really a thread aboht the history of online movements.
>>16894712The accusation was that toll houses have no basis in the church fathers or the scriptures. I gave you both.If you know what toll houses are, you know why that greentext matters as a basis for them.
>>16894611>you need to quit shooting messengers when they say scary things.Not advocating that. Stop shadowboxing.>The scriptural bases for "toll houses" comes from numerous parables Jesus spoke of regarding tax collectors. Cite 1.>The allegory is used to motivate people to repent.So is it testifying to the validity of the toll houses or is it just an allegory about how people should repent? >This toll house metaphorStop. You just fell of a cliff.Serephim Rose didn’t think the toll house was a metaphor.>So, if toll houses sound horrifying to youNo it sounds like gnostic bullshit that people try and give a Christian coat of paint. It doesn’t terrify me because it’s a false doctrine that contradicts itself. >The teaching has been universal in the Orthodox Church for over 1,500 years.HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHThe “orthodox” can’t even figure out their own teachings let alone keep it consistent and universal.
>>16894737>The accusation was that toll houses have no basis in the church fathers or the scriptures.Yes.>I gave you both.No you didn’t. You said>Justin, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, believed that, in general, the saved did not enter heaven until Judgment Day.Zero mention of toll houses.>Tertullian wrote that, even before final judgment, a soul "undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgmentZero mention of toll houses.There is also zero citation of scripture in that so when you say>I gave you both.You are actually lying to me, plain and simple. Have fun with that on your “toll house” balance sheet I guess.So I am going to wait here for any actual mentions of the toll houses in scripture or in the apostolic fathers.
>>16894740You actually did advocate for it - when you tried to dismiss people being attracted to hard teachings by insinuating that they were cruel i.e. "strict and harsh."Tax collectors are frequently present in parables - though to be fair to you, it's usually in the context of earthly collectors needing repentance and forgiveness. The parable of the pharisee and the tax collector is one of these instances.. Nevertheless, regarding a man who won't repent:>tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.The negative connotation - about the job, not just the person - is clearly a long-running tradition, old testament and new, that has something to do with more than collecting money.>whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heavenIncluding your sins. If you won't let them go i.e. if you make excuses, you'll be bound to them.If you're not willfully obtuse you'll see that in light of the other church fathers it's no great leap to carry the metaphor of tax collection to the "toll house" - a place where what you've bound on earth comes to condemn you.
>>16894740>just an allegoryThat the toll house is allegorical doesn't render it invalid. If God is an author, history itself can be allegorical.If the toll house is about taking you to task on what you haven't repented for - then it has nothing to do with Gnosticism. Orthodox doctrine is clear as day regarding what you bind on earth and in heaven.>hehe lmao the church is inconsistentAgain,>>16894636You have tertullian, justin martyr, irenaeus, and so on leading you up the same stairway to this idea. It's not random or inconsistent.You're petty and you're rude, and I'm being patient with you. Please recognize that there's no need for your animosity.
>>16894758Do you know what a toll house is?Do you know what a "basis" is?Open your eyes.
>>16894809>You actually did advocate for it - when you tried to dismiss people being attracted to hard teachings by….. Stop. You are shadow boxing again.I question why people would believe them see (>>16892965)I finish my sentences with question marks and even directly ask “Or is there something I’m missing”I DISMISS the toll houses because it’s gnostic bullshit. I believe in predestination so I don’t reject ideas solely on the basis of “oh it seems mean”.So again stop shadowboxing.>Nevertheless, regarding a man who won't repent:………Zero mention of the toll houses.This is starting to get sad and boring so I’m going to engage with you less until you bring me what I asked for.NEXT!>The negative connotation about tax collectors is my proof of a 1500yr old tradition of belief in the toll houses.Is THIS honestly the best Palamites have to offer?The ONE TRUE CHURCH in the entire world, and THIS is what amounts to their biblical justification??This is going in my cringe compilation as an excellent example of eisegesis.
>>16887045>russian orthodox churchLiteral criminal organization.
>>16894825>That the toll house is allegorical doesn't render it invalid.Are the toll houses REAL like how Serephim Rose write, or is it just an allegory?Stop doing the palamite dance around the topic, act like a man and confess your beliefs.>If the toll house is about taking you to task on what you haven't repented for - then it has nothing to do with Gnosticism. I forgive you for your ignorance.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_of_LightNEXT!>You have tertullian, justin martyr, irenaeus, and so on leading you up the same stairway to this idea.No you don’t, you’re just ass pulling gnostic doctrine and retroactively trying to justify it as Christian.Notice how you haven’t actually posted a single one of those church fathers quotes. Because deep down YOU know they didn’t believe this crap.If a catholic said “oh yes well purgatory is confirmed by the apostolic church fathers because Justin, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandria, believed that, in general, the saved did not enter heaven until Judgment Day” there is NO WAY the Palamite church would accept that as a legitimate argument.>>16894825>You're petty No, this is serious stuff. You are undermining Christanity.>and you're rudeYes that’s true, however to quote a palamite, (>>16893991) Allowing yourself to hear hard facts because they're true, and confessing hard facts because they're true, is what faith is about.
>>16893981>I heard a lot of propaganda from Western cunts decrying USSR anti-religion campaigns but Russians themselves had quite different take on it.It's because the bishops drive benzies. Even in the poorest oblasti they wear gold and look down on the poor sick and needy. Read Lost Souls by Gogol it'll clear things up.
>>16894830>Do you know what a toll house is?I’m SO GLAD you asked. The answer is no because not even the Palamites know.They can’t figure out if it’s an allegorical description of peoples last thoughts as they die and it’s not a part of soteriology (see hierarch Lazar Puhalo), they can’t figure out if unironically real (see serephim rose), they can’t figure out if it’s not real at all and it’s heterodox, I’ve even see Palamites try and argue that Jesus died on the cross to “cleanse the air” while simultaneously believing that the toll houses are a legitimate thing which would make Christs death go from victory to status quo ante bellum
>>16894900the "hundred million" are themselves a lie lmaohard to take anti-communists seriously when they treat a polemic like the black book as a legitimate source
>>16894957Thanks I was expecting some palamite to post that.>prince of the power of the airTHAT is single handedly the BEST they have to offer. That 1 verse + a metric shitload of gnostic theology + eisegesis and you get the toll houses.I won’t really bother to address it because it’s been done to death.>the toll houses are supposed to be literalNOW WE WE GETTING SOMEWHERE!We got a full blown gnostic Palamite in the thread.You should go 1v1 the Palamite who said it’s allegory (>>16894825) lmao.The utter state of the “one true church”.
>>16894636those aren’t the toll houses Gregory, one of your ahistorical monks, made up. There was no Theodora and she never journeyed through aerial toll houses. Just stop. Even if these figures did exist, it wouldn’t make the doctrine any less made up
>>16894885Pride comes before the fall, homer.That's why the "be a man" rhetoric works so well as a pharisaicle trap.I'm not gonna be baited.I don't see how these toll houses are inconsistent with central Christian ideas of repentance and accountability.Seraphim Rose isn't a Saint yet. Time will tell.In the meantime, you'll do well for your own side by not muddying the waters with vitriol. It's way harder to have a discussion and remain on topic with someone so soaked in pride.
>>16895005> Fallible humans on the intent disagree on the expression of the one truth, therefore, there is no one truth.Let's be honest. No one in this thread is a monk.That's why you get wishy-washy responses.It's about expressing humility.>LMAO HEHEHEThat's difficult to do when you're up against a scoffer.
>>16895014>I won’t be baited into confession what I actually believeYeah better to keep that knowledge/gnosis hidden right?>I don't see how these toll houses are inconsistent with central Christian ideas of repentance and accountability.Probably because of 1 of 2 things1) you don’t actually understand what the toll houses heresy isOr 2) you don’t actually understand what Christianity & the gospel is.And I’m not saying that to be rude, I’m very serious I sincerely believe it’s actually 1 of those 2. >Seraphim Rose isn't a Saint yet. He wouldn’t be the 1st person they incorrectly made a saint.From a pedo Serbian to Buddha.>In the meantime, you'll do well for your own side by not muddying the waters with vitriol. And you'll do well for your own side by not muddying the waters with a false gospel.>someone so soaked in pride.I forgive you
>>16895024>Let's be honestYes let’s.>Fallible humans on the intent disagree on the expression of the one truthAnon, I…… I thought we just agreed to be honest. That’s blatantly dishonest.The Toll Houses being a heretical doctrine, or just an analogy to something unrelated to soteriology vs it being a literal and accurate expression of orthodox soteriology is not something that can honestly be reduced to mere disagreement. The fact you are trying to wriggle out of the fact this way is proof you have no interest in honest discussion.
>>16895058You really take respect for granted. I have not acted like swine to anyone here.We need lessons in evangelism.
>>16895058You will never be orthodox.
>>16895084Don’t need to strawman anyone.I’ve represented Palamites fairly.From provided sauces showing the Gnostic connects (>>16894885) to showing that even Palamites can’t figure out what they believe (>>16894920)You are clearly only defending this heresy because you have presupposed it must be.Sad, but Christ warned the faithless would be unable to hear reason.
Do I defend Rose because I love Rose or do I defend him because I dislike slander. Difficult question.
Is orthodoxy as a whole corrupt because people respond to slander this way?Is it corrupt because Some monk attempted to understand the theologians before him.?
It's funny to me how Orthobros will call saints like Augustine heretics and claim half of the entire Church fell into trinitarian heresy while the East was in communion with them for centuries rather than accept the filioque as valid.
>>16895084Thanks man
>>16895102Wtf are you on about?*opinion instantly ignored*
>>16887570>>16887045When Rome got ahold of Christianity a sect went out into the desert called the Desert Fathershttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Fathers
>>16895093>>16895099>or do I defend him because I dislike slander. It’s not slander though. The Gnostic connections are well known and it’s also know that Rose at the VERY LEAST knew of the connections to the tibetian and Egyptian book of the dead.To brush it off as mere slander is slanderous in of itself.https://publicorthodoxy.org/2019/05/08/hart-on-the-toll-houses/
>>16895100They will appeal to >Fallible humans disagree on the expression of the one truthBut will NEVER let that argument slide with any thing else.It’s rank hypocrisy. Try do the in vs of 2 natures and see how they react.
>>16895069>Ephesians 6:12>Luke 12:20More eisegesis.*instantly ignored*When, however, they are confuted fromthe Scriptures, they turn round and accusethese same scriptures, as if they were notcorrect, nor of authority, and assert thatthey are ambiguous, and that the truthcannot be extracted from them by thosewho are ignorant of tradition. For theyallege that the truth was not delivered bymeans of written documents but orally…Irenaeus, Adversus Haereses III.2 (ca. 180 A.D.)
>>16895149The origin of the nonsense doctrine is Gregory and his story about Theodora passing through the toll houses
>>16894727>As a christianI'm not a Christian, I don't believe in Adam or a historical Christ.Man is supposed to be with a woman, period.
>>16895193this, it shouldn’t even be a conversation. the guy you are arguing with is a total retard
>>16895166>The origin of the nonsense doctrine is the story about Theodora passing through the toll housesAbsolutely but it has massive connections to gnostic and pagan ideas, so probably something the original story teller heard and decided to try to baptist.Same with Palamites and making Buddha a saint accidentally.They then try and read it back into scripture. There is a reason ONLY Palamites believe this shit. No one could naturally reach it as a conclusion.
>>16895254https://www.trueorthodoxy.org/teachings/con_toll_house_myth_origins.shtml#:~:text=Other%20Gnostic%20sects%20provided%20amulets,of%20Elder%20Basil%20the%20New.you’re right
Why we so many posts deleted?
>>16887045Epic troll OP.
>>16887045>top leftA fucking woman and some looney old man.>rightStrong, virile men.
>>16895513triggered communists mass reporting info dump about their decades long mass persecution of Christians
>>16887045Because outside of western Christianity the Christian churches have always been very closely tied to the state ruling them, even when that state isn't Christian. Historical Eastern Orthodoxy was closely aligned with the Ottoman caliph and before that took orders directly from the Byzantine emperor.Really, the catholic church and all descendants are the anomaly.>>16888378American orthodoxy in general weirds me out. Seraphim Rose, this guy. Feels like a weird trad-larp and the misunderstanding of a foreign doctrine for American goals.
>>16890970Where does your Picrel come from. I think I would enjoy it.
>>16895193Well, no. You're supposed to be in a heterosexual relationship for the purpose of raising a christian family or youre supposed to transcend carnal desires.Not because christians say so, but because it makes the world a better place. Hindus and buddhists and taoists and zoroastrians agree. Christians perfected the doctrine though.
>>16895532>strong, virile manwho must bow to the sultan
>>16887570Daily reminder that Sola Fide is false
>>16895014>"be a man" is a pharisaicle trapyet online orthobros will tell you how manly their religion is.come on, dont be that patheticalso>lose argument>y-your pridefullmao
>>16887570You forgot to mention that prots are even more misguided in their beliefs and ignorant of early Christianity.Also early Christians didn't have everything figured out. Jesus himself said "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth".
