That doesn't seem rightProtestantism seem so unique and revolutionary compared to the other two.
>>16890879Daily reminder that the Romanist, Oriental and especially the Palamite church have demonstrably false and historically inaccurate doctrines and interpretations that are completely different from early Christians that were created by theologians centuries after the fact who don't understand the context that the apostles were writing in. So these theologians use different frameworks/hermeneutics/philosophies that are not original and anachronistic to the context of the apostles to get a new meaning from the texts. They do this to justify their church institutions for political and personal gain. "Church Tradition" is a code word for interpreting it 100% wrong all the time.
>Look, ma! I can cherrypick as well!
cope
Not even close.That's autocephalous cope.Protestants don't recognize 5 out of the 7 sacraments. That alone cuts them off from orthodoxy.Autocephalous copers can qq all they want about the filioque and the Pope, but at the end of the day that's a VERY minor difference they latch onto because the real division between Latins and Greeks is political.They both recognize the same sacraments, which is of far greater importance.
More like it is Protestants that just made their own wallmart Catholicism
>>16890879>Is it true Catholicism is far closer to Protestantism than Orthodoxy?Which “Orthodoxy”?Old Believer Orthodox (many Old Believers are not in communion with mainstream Russian Palamites in addition to groups such as the Bespopovtsy)?Oriental Orthodox?Assyrian Orthodox Church of the East?Eastern Orthodox on the side of Russia in the current schism?Or Eastern Orthodox on the side of the Constantinople, Alexandria, Ukraine, Greece & Cyprus in the current schism?Or Old Calenderist Eastern Orthodox (such as the Matthewites & Cyprianites)?Or Western Orthodox Churches (such as the Celtic Orthodox Church & British Orthodox Church)?Or “True” Orthodox?And which “Protestantism”?Anglicanism?Lutheranism?Pastor Jim Bobs Radio Bible Hour?Hussites?Old Catholics?Anabaptists?Reformed?Methodists?Baptists?
>>16890972>Protestants don't recognize 5 out of the 7 sacraments. That alone cuts them off from orthodoxy.This is a fundamentally uncharitable argument because you aren’t establishing and agreed understanding of what is a Sacrement. You are pre-supposing your definition of what a sacrament is the sole definition and understanding that exists in the world. From a Lutheran perspective a Church Sacrement is an ordinance established by Christ for the remission of sins.Now let’s looks at the traditionally accepted 7 Sacrements.Baptism - Definitely for forgiveness of sins and is accepted by the Protestants traditions as a SacrementCommunion/Eucharist - The second of the 2 generally accepted Protestant Sacrements (Matthew 26:28, for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.)Marriage - Though universally conducted by Protestants it is generally not considered a sacrament. Marriage was established by God in Genesis and it is not something exclusive to the Church. Pagan marriages are valid and must be respected (1st Corinthians 7:12-14)Confirmation - Not done for the forgiveness of sinAnointing of the Sick - Not done for the forgiveness of sinHoly Orders - Not done for the forgiveness of sinConfession/Reconciliation - This is the one that I disagree with Protestants on, I love confession and do think it is a sacrament that Protestant Traditions should uphold. However I also know they have their own arguments against it so it is an entire can of worms on its own.
>>16891342>This is a fundamentally uncharitable argument because you aren’t establishing and agreed understanding of what is a Sacrement.the Roman, Greek, and Oriental churches all agree on what sacraments are and which rites are sacramental>From a Lutheran perspective talk about a presupposition>Pagan marriages are valid oofSo anyone who appears before a judge to be united in civil matrimony enjoys the effication of grace?Idk about that dude.
>>16891342>Anointing of the Sick - Not done for the forgiveness of sinalso this is simply not truethe last rites are done for that reason, among others
>>16891371>the Roman, Greek, and Oriental churches all agree on what sacraments are and which rites are sacramental1) A false appeal to popularity. Just because 3 denominations have a definition of something doesn’t make that the definitive definition of something. 2) Orientals have a completely unbiblical understanding of marriage.>talk about a presuppositionHow is that a presupposition? I’m literally saying not all Protestants reject X because you aren’t defining X in the same way as many Protestants. For example Y define X as………Where is the presupposition there?>So anyone who appears before a judge to be united in civil matrimony enjoys the effication of grace?No, it needs to meet the conditions set in scripture. It can’t be anyone. It need to be consenting adults, 1 male, 1 female and see 1st Corinthians 7:12-14.>>16891380>also this is simply not true>the last rites are done for that reasonI will grant actually grant that. I had forgotten about that so I am sorry.However last rights is a VERY specific form of Anointing of the Sick. Additionally I’m sure you will agree last rites is not a requirement for the forgiveness of sins, though is of course desirable.Why the aggressive hatred of Protestants?It would be easier and more spiritually health to just admit and make peace with “oh yeah they do define Sacrement differently”.
>>16891413>Just because the three oldest denominations have a definition of something doesn’t make that the definitive definition of something.It does though.>had forgotten no need to feel sorry about it, I make mistakes too, you didn't do any harm>Why the aggressive hatred of Protestants?dissolution of the monasterieslots of people relied on them, especially for herbal medicine, and that institution was done away with so aristocrats could take their land and tenants to begin the system of enclosures that would lead directly to urbanization and industrial society, conscription, etc
>>16890879Is all of American culture predicated on children being upset their evangelical parents made them go to church?
>>16891464>It does though.Yeah no I’m sorry but I simply don’t agree. I don’t think we can claim ownership of a word and say “this is the only way you can define it”. Thats how we got into so many issues with the Palamites because they started trying to control discussion of thing like the filioque by controlling the definition of words and concepts.>dissolution of the monasteriesAnd I get that. It was disgusting and when Anglos say “oh yes and we built this Monastery in *insert date* AD” I will be one of the first to say they didn’t build shit, they stole it from us.However I don’t let that live rent free in my brain and we did bad stuff like what we did to Jan Hus and I would rather spend time with and pray alongside faithful Protestants than cafeteria Catholics. Could you explain what my “presupposition“ was?
>>16891537>this is the only way you can define itIMO, no humanly comprehensible definition of grace is truly sufficient to encapsulate itit's a mystery, and though certain formulas allow us to participate in this mystery they do not function as a definition>Could you explain what my “presupposition“ was?"You are pre-supposing your definition of what a sacrament is, the sole definition and understanding that exists in the world.""From a Lutheran perspective..."If Lutherans disagree with Orthodox Christians about what the sacraments are, there is a disconnect between their belief systems.
>>16891565>IMO, no humanly comprehensible definition of grace is truly sufficient to encapsulate it>it's a mystery, and though certain formulas allow us to participate in this mystery they do not function as a definitionYou can just go with what the Bible says>Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.>And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.I think you've begun with a presupposition that aesthetics prove truthfulness and worked backward from there and chose the most beautiful religion (which is, without controversy, Greek Orthodoxy).The problem is that the most beautiful whore is still a whore.>favor is deceitful, and beauty is vain; [she] that feareth the LORD, she shall be praised
>>16890879>>16890907You are all idolaters. The churches, icons, statues, art, are idols.
>>16891627Architecture is not idolatry. Idolatry is idolatry.
>>16891637>Idolatry is idolatry.Which is..? Anything that takes your focus off of G-d Himself is idolatry
>>16891640How does a house take your focus off of God?You know half the reason churches have high ceilings is just for acoustics, right?By your logic, even, literally everything is possibly an idol.
>>16891646>By your logic, even, literally everything is possibly an idol.Yes. You can make an idol of your family, you can make an idol of your job. Anything can be an idol.
>>16891649Okay, but an idol, like, an image of Jesus is always* an idol. A building is not inherently an idol.
>>16891652>A building is not inherently an idol.It definitely is one when you're constantly going on about how much more a e s t h e t i c it is than other churches
>>16891413> 2) Orientals have a completely unbiblical understanding of marriage.Explain, and do you mean Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox?
>>16891565>IMO, no humanly comprehensible definition of grace is truly sufficient to encapsulate itErgo maybe we shouldn’t be so quick to judge others and rather than rashly say “X group denies *insert number* of Sacrements” we can say “we define sacraments differently. They share multiple of what we would call Sacrements but they don’t always call them Sacrements”.>If Lutherans disagree with Orthodox Christians about what the sacraments are, there is a disconnect between their belief systems.I literally acknowledge that in my first post (>>16891342) Any difference in definition is by definition a disconnect. Same with “of 2 natures” vs “in 2 natures”. I never denied that they use the word differently, that was the ENTIRE POINT I was making. That your seething is unwarranted because their “denial” of 5/7 Sacrements was more complex then just rejecting things like marriage or annointimg the sick. Rather that they are saying something different when they use the word sacrement. You seem to be confusing being charitable and giving voice to a more nuanced take as somehow a presupposition. If a catholic does a anointing of the sick and a Lutheran does the same, then the catholic turns around and says “you only have 2/7 Sacrements, it is not a presupposition to point out that the Lutheran is defining sacrement differently.You honestly seem to be look for an issue.
>>16891677>we define sacraments differentlyyour ecumenism is overextendedI'm all for interfaith dialogue, but I am not going to entertain the notion that this point is somehow negotiable.The sacraments confer grace for the working of charismata that build up the church. These include not only ordination, but holy matrimony and Chrismation too.>Same with “of 2 natures” vs “in 2 natures”. The divine and human nature of Christ also isn't up for debate when talking about othodoxy.
While every sacrament is necessary for the work of the church as a whole, they are not all necessary for individuals in the church since different people play roles appropriate to the grace they have recieved.4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.Since every work of the church is made through grace, it follows naturally that those sacraments may confer offices according to that grace given to individuals.
>>16891310Based, whether you hate Catholics or not they're really the only monolithic branch of Christianity, everyone else is like shattered fragments from a pot dropped to the floor
>>16892179> your ecumenism is overextendedHardly. Recognising that people use the same words differently is the literal foundation of any kind of interdenominational dialogue. If you can’t accept that very simple fact your doomed from the get go.> The divine and human nature of Christ also isn't up for debate Literally no one here is denying that Christ has a human and a divine nature. Expressing it as “of” or “in” literally has no effect on orthopraxy as you YOURSELF admit when you start citing the OO as orthodox sauce (>>16891371)>the Roman, Greek, and Oriental churches all agree (>>16891565)>If Lutherans disagree with Orthodox Christians about what the sacraments
>>16890879Depending on the branch of Protestantism perhaps. Most protestant sects agree with Catholics on the Filioque, and are influenced by Augustine's theology (Which is considered borderline heretical in the east). But once you get away from high Church Protestantism the less that argument holds. IN fact since most high Church protestants now ordain women I would say it isn't valid anymore.
>>16892179Sorry I’ve got other things going on so I will need to cut out discussion short.This (>>16892249) still stands Recognising that people use the same words differently is the literal foundation of any kind of interdenominational dialogue. In essence what you are saying is that Protestants can agree that Marriage is a means of grace, or being anointed with oil is a means of grace (which most do btw) but since they don’t call it a sacrement (because Sacrements means something different to them) they are as CUT OFF from orthodoxy.A Methodist or Lutheran will be standing before the Lord on judgment day and will have a correct view of Marriage so far as its something instituted by God and is a means of grace, but God will say “woops sorry the word you were looking for is sacrement, off to hell you go”.It’s a view I fundamentally disagree with and if wanting to be charitable to Protestants is “ecumanism overextended” then here I stand, I can do no other.
>>16890879In terms of theology not at allOrthodox and Catholic Churches don’t believe in Sola Fide and Sola ScripturaAnd we both use the septuagint>>16891509Extremely accurate for atheistsSpecially reddit atheists
>>16892373>Protestants can agree that Marriage is a means of grace, or being anointed with oil is a means of grace (which most do btw) but since they don’t call it a sacrement >a means of gracethose are the *exact* words Lutherans use to define their idea of a sacramentmaybe consider the possibility that Lutherans *don't* think marriage is a means of grace, because they don't think it's a sacrament>A Methodist or Lutheran will be standing before the Lord on judgment day and will have a correct view of Marriage so far as its something instituted by God and is a means of grace, but God will say “woops sorry the word you were looking for is sacrement, off to hell you go”.The sacraments aren't the only means God has of bestowing grace. That's why we can be hopeful for the salvation of all.Having a correct view of the sacraments isn't the deciding factor in one's ultimate fate, at least so far as I know.the CCC...>The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are ‘reborn of water and the Spirit.’ God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
