Sunni orthodoxy can overpower all when you really put your effort behind it. Defeated Russia twice in two decades, just years apart.

We have yet to see Salafists win a single war. Orthodox Sunni-dominated forces have won like five to seven wars since the 1980s.

>>17082997
Wahhabi sisters our response?

Why did the Patriots win the American Revolution?

Why do animals not like being locked in little cages?

It is simply natural to seek your freedom. Even moral.

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>>17083099

The founding fathers of the United States espoused this as well.

That it was a moral duty to God to rebel against tyrants and seek your freedom.

In the Bible, tyrants are overthrown and killed, punished for their sins of oppression.

This was the first suggestion for the Seal of the United States.

It depicts Moses and the Pharaoh's army.

>>17082986
Same reason America lost in Afghanistan.

>>17083789
Not similar reasons, brainlet.

>>17083792
There were different political factors at play behind the withdrawals but the fighting and statebuilding went poorly for both for similar reasons. Outside Kabul there is no social and economic basis for the type of society the Soviets and Americans were trying to build. How are you going to have socialism or liberal capitalism when the vast majority of the population is living in a tribalistic semi-feudal economy in isolated little valleys and state authority doesn't directly extend over most of the country? The DRA and IRA had similar problems too. Overly dependent on aid from their great power backers, massively prone to factionalism and purging in the DRA's case, massively corrupt and nepotistic in the IRA's case, both of their militaries had gigantic problems with defection and weren't able to extend power into the provinces even with great power help.

Ironically the Soviets were being a lot more realistic and that is part of the whole reason they invaded, they wanted to depose Amin in favor of Karmal because they correctly realized that Amin was trying to build a political project there wasn't an economic basis for as well as needlessly weakening the PDPA with purges and alienating the countryside by moving too fast on things like women's rights that he didn't even have the ability to enforce for the part. What they were wrong about was the idea that the situation was reversible by 79. The Americans seem to have been genuinely convinced that Afghanistan could be reformed into a Western style democracy.

>>17082997
Why does Palestine keep getting it's ass kicked in then?

>>17082986
Power of Allah

>>17082997
>“Orthodox Sunni”
>”Salafi”
Mujahideen had huge numbers of Saudis and other salafists with them

>>17083949
As low as 8000 and as high as 35k. With total mujahedeen being 200-250k. So at the most generous the "Arabs" were 17% and "Arabs" in the context of the Soviet-Afghan War just means a foreign Muslim volunteer. Not all of them were Arabs, not all were Salafis (though most were) and not all of the Salafis had the same political program. Saudi funding and ISI training and advising were a lot more significant than the volunteers, the Salafi Islamist movement benefitted from Afghanistan more than the other way around. And after the war they never had a ton of influence, the Taliban are Deobandis not Salafis and ISIS-K is pretty small.

>>17083841
Thanks for being the only person I've seen on this board who actually understands the war in Afghanistan (for both Americans and Soviets).

>>17083841
>The Americans seem to have been genuinely convinced that Afghanistan could be reformed into a Western style democracy.
Most people were fooled into believing that, but the war was a racket perpetrated by glownigs and the MIC

>>17083841
>How are you going to have socialism or liberal capitalism when the vast majority of the population is living in a tribalistic semi-feudal economy in isolated little valleys and state authority doesn't directly extend over most of the country?
Pol Pot did it.

>>17084343
Welcome back Kissinger. So soon?

>>17082986
Muttmerican support and internal unstability in the USSR

>>17083841
Mostly wrong, but you had to note the problems were different for both.

>>17084343
It was PRI Mexico that did it the most effectively actually. Until the 80s Mexican farmers were the most pwoerful people in the country besides oil barons.

>>17083857
>Why does Palestine keep getting it's ass kicked in then?
Are you retarded? Name one prominent orthodox Sunni actor in Palestine. Hamas come from an Ikhwani background, and since the 2000s have been aligned with Twelver Iran due to circumstances and shared interests. I would have done the same and support them, but they're still not Orthodox Sunni.

Both Egypt and Jordan have passed fatwas or held summits declaring heretical sects to be explicitly Muslim. As such they're literally heretics themselves. Most importantly, they've been aligned with Israel since the mid-1970s. They are Israel's guard dogs, logistics facilitators, and are Western intel hubs.
The two along with most Gulf Arab monarchies, not a single one of whom is orthodox Sunni, are aligned with Israel. Morocco has been since the early-1960s, and most of the rest since the 1980s or 90s.

>>17085449
Palestinians lose because the PLO fucked its own support from the 60s to the 90s by destabilizing Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon in such quick succession that they got thrown out or quarantined in tard containment zones

>>17085458
Complete Jew take.

>>17085458
Mind sharing how the PLO destabilized Egypt again?
Lebanon was destabilized by Israel and Hafez's Syria. The PLO held their ground against both and persevered. The PLO sold out between the 90s and 2000s, with Fatah selling out in the 90s and becoming a full-on puppet since its 2007 coup against the 2006-elected Hamas admin.

PLO strategy between the 70s and 80s were a net positive. Getting away from it is how Palestine was screwed. But really, the onus was on its neighbors more so then on the PLO. Egypt and Jordan chose to sell out first.

>>17085462
You see kids, this is the kind of rhetoric that you put out when you have no other defense.
This entire October 11 debacle was because of Hamas being terrified of the Saudis normalizing relations and wanting to step in - it's no different than when they sperged out in Jordan in 1970 or had their buddies in EIJ assassinate Sadat in 81 after Camp David.

It's a continuous thread of the Palestinian people supporting whichever two-bit scammer is willing to promise them total Jew death or whatever.

Of course I'm no fan of the current conduct of the war or Israeli settlers, but Netanyahu was the result of 70 years of Palestinian refusal to accept reality that Jews exist. Instead, they keep sperging out and sacrificing innocents (especially women and children trapped in a barbaric civilization) while the leaders are all holed away in fancy villas in the Gulf sipping champagne.

>>17085489
Not him, but you're retarded. Saudi and other Gulf states normalized their relations with Israel many years ago. The war in Palestine had no effect on the state of normalization. Qatar, the sole Arab ally of Palestinians, has never normalized relations with Israel.

Palestinians are descended from the native Jews. Palestinians recognize Israel and are asking for a two-state solution and Israel wants to genocide them. Israel made half the world refuse to recognize Palestine because Israel doesn't recognize the existence of the indigenous Palestinians. It's Israel that refuses to acknowledge Palestine.

What the fuck is the October 11 debacle? A new Israeli psyop you're trying to spread.

>>17085489
You can wipe out the entire Palestinian population or the Gaza population. You will STILL lose and will be kicked out. You know that too which is why you want to drag this Palestinian fiasco as long as possible.

The last thing the Zionist Jew (or the Zionist Arab) actually wants is for the Palestinians Arabs to leave en masse. That's something I support, because that's what the Prophet and early Muslims did when they were persecuted in Mecca and that's how commonsense has always worked when dealing with large-scale oppression and genocide. There's many examples of this in Muslim and non-Muslim history alike. Israel prefers a hostage situation instead.

What did the Afghan Taliban do when NATO invaded? They did a strategic retreat. Remember when Zionists pressured the USSR and the Warsaw Pact by way of US-led sanctions and sanctions-relief during the 70s and 80s to LET JEWS LEAVE? Of course, you do. That amplified Jewish and Zionist power in the West and globally.

>while the leaders are all holed away in fancy villas in the Gulf sipping champagne.
You're still spewing this bullshit? Let me guess, Hamas has been bombing all its hospitals, universities and aid distribution centers too?... How many Hamas leaders and their relatives have we seen killed so far? You would have thought they would have moved their own kids and relatives out to these billionaire palaces and privates planes that Zionists keep claiming that Hamas leaders hold.

>>17082986
Because Russia was fighting an invisible enemy in the face of Britain

>>17082986
they won

>>17086841
No they didnt

>>17085485
>Black September
>Not the fault of Palestinians

>>17087430
Anon, why would you bother debating these people. I laid out the facts, and they can cope as they wish.

Muslims ultimately have no power of freethinking on this subject because they do not care to examine why Egypt has forbidden any Palestinian refugees to legally cross Rafah despite a complete genocide going on. They don't care to examine why the West Bank suddenly popped into existence decades as an independent entity after Palestinians left in the 40s (that was what the Nakba was mostly by the way. people refused to live among Jews, so they packed up and left crying and fuming all the way to the surrounding countries)
In their eyes, the existence of Israel is an unmitigated evil because Jews le bad - yet somehow the Hamas leadership being assassinated in diverse places like Iran and Lebanon when leaving their home base in Qatar (same as the Taliban were doing) doesn't strike a single red flag.

They call me a Jew, which I am not - because it's ultimately the same sense of postcolonial rage of Chinese people screeching at the evil West for keeping them down

>>17088176
>that was what the Nakba was mostly by the way. people refused to live among Jews, so they packed up and left
Not even Zionist Israeli historians claim this anymore

>>17085489
based

>>17088176
Not a retarded Arab, Palestine simp, or Zionist, but the Nakba was not at all just Palis seething at Jews lmao; civilians largely uninvolved with the conflict were being forecfully displaced and lynched by Zionist paramilitaries and mobs in revenge for the 1948 war.
>Israel bad because Jews bad
That's only a part of it. It's more "Israel bad because the West and the UN sanctioned the creation of a state that had no historical roots due to unrelated WWII shit in Europe". Most Arab antisemitism itself stems from the Balfour Declaration and everything that happened afterwards. Before then Arabs and Mizrahi Jews were largely peacefully coexisting under Ottoman and Caliphate rule despite it being imperfect. And of course then you have the U.S relationship with Israel which itself is an endless ocean full of bullshit and contradictions from all perspectives given the country doesn't even have a treaty yet receives far more American military aid and guarantees than several American treaty states like the Philippines.

>>17088191
I don't care what XYZ people claim. I'm saying the facts as they are.
>>17088220
Interesting that you didn't say you weren't Muslim.
The Balfour declaration only legitimized an already widening stream of Jews emigrating to Palestine at the time - Mizrahi Jews lived in *relative* peace (there were still pogroms if they offended a Muslim) because they were a micro minority within a vast sea of Muslims in a Muslim state.
Devout Muslims abhor the idea of living in a state where non-Muslims can seek power. Israel is that state, a revival of a state that was dead for 2000 years and the culmination of a century of searching for a homeland for one of the world's most persecuted groups. For decades, the country was legally built on the principles of socialism and equality under the law. Netanyahu is an unfortunate and barbaric response to decades of Palestinians spitting in the face of those ideas - MLs like yourself saw the existence of Israel as a colonial project, while Muslim fundamentalists saw all Jews as bad and the existence of a non-Muslim state controlling Jerusalem as a continuation of historic wrongs like the Crusades.

>>17085489
>Palestinian refusal to accept reality that Jews exist
Hahahahahahahaha How The Fuck Is Antisemitism Real Hahahaha Nigga Just Move Away From The Settlements Like Nigga Go Back to Brooklyn Haha

>>17088260
Not Muslim either, I'm an American oldfag Catholic from the South.
>legitimized an already widening stream of Jews
Of EUROPEAN Jews that had zero connection to Palestine or Israel beyond some proto-Lebensraum wewuz larp shit that used the Mizrahi Jews as a way to get their foot in the door. They didn't even speak the same languages as the Mizrahim. Britain had no reason to do and didn't benefit at all from the declaration, it was a successful attempt by European Jews to get their interests and pet projects in amidst a power vacuum in Palestine that was ultimately a betrayal of the Arabs the British cultivated an alliance with during the war.
>micro minority within a vast sea of Muslims in a Muslim state.
So if millions of Greeks started moving into Sicily, Crimea, and Southern Italy illegally, Koreans into Japan, or Mexicans into former Mexican Imperial Territory in the U.S and claiming said territories were "ancient homelands" with the support of the UN and Western Governments, you wouldn't raise an eyebrow or say anything bad, right?
>MLs
I'm not a Marxist, I'm an American Imperialist and Nationalist who rightfully sees Israel as a parasitic and negative influence on my empire, dragging down its reputation worldwide and distracting us from our real enemies like Russia and China by bogging us down in retarded sandnigger wars.
However, even though I have my opinions about Israel I ultimately know my opinions don't matter in the grand scheme of things. I just don't want the U.S and its empire to have its fate tied to a bunch of psychopaths and gangsters in bumfuck Tel Aviv.

>>17083117
The new tyrants tickle your balls and point to the other guy as the problem. That should be a seal somewhere.

>>17088329
1. Shut the fuck up namefag, nobody cares.
2. Proto-Lebensraum is a hilariously bad and false equivalency. Germans conquered the land by force. Jews lawfully immigrated fleeing force used against them.
3. I wouldn't care about any of those groups moving into any of those places, they have as much a right to it as anybody else does to live in those states. Up until the 90s and 00s, Israel was happy to live with Muslims who wanted to integrate - there are roughly 2 million Israeli Arabs living normal lives today.
>American Imperialist and Nationalist
Then you would know Israel is the best return on investment we've ever had in the Middle East. We sell billions of weapons and aid some of the purchases - yes - but it pales in comparison to the force multiplier they become for intelligence and espionage throughout CENTCOM's sphere

>>17083117
War is about hate, it’s about destroying your enemy utterly if you’re invading and repelling them completely if you’re defending. One side simply hated the other more.

CIA trained and backed the taliban

1. Americans supplied the afghan resistance with stinger muscles that annihilated their helicopter fleet. Whcih led to huge supply problems bc helicopter supplied a lot of their supplies.

2. Afghanistan is hard to supply on the ground. It's very mountainous and it's easy for convoys to get ambushed. Russians used armour and it was still difficult bc everything except the armour would get destroyed.

3. The soviets tried to prop up the communists of afghansitan and everybody in afghansitan hated them.

4. Pakistan supplied alot of supplies and training to the mujadeen. There is evidence that Pakistani troops were on the group fighting as well.

5. Russian government gave up and that was that.

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>>17082986
Support from neighbouring Pakistan.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_aircraft_losses_during_the_Soviet%E2%80%93Afghan_War

>>17088485
>Germans conquered the land by force. Jews lawfully immigrated fleeing force used against them.
LOL, whatever you do don't look into the countless conflicts and insurgencies Zionist militias waged against both Palestinians and the British. The only difference between what Germany did and what Israel's doing now is that the Jews went about it in a much smarter way by thinking long-term and cultivating as many allies as possible instead of repelling them.
>I wouldn't care about any of those groups moving into any of those places, they have as much a right to it as anybody else does to live in those states.
K then, according to you Russia's claims over Ukraine and China's over Taiwan are totally fine then and you have zero standing to bitch about them doing anything. It's their ancestral homelands after all.
>Then you would know Israel is the best return on investment we've ever had in the Middle East.
If Israel never existed the entire Middle East would be under our thumb or at least neutral because all the Hashemite and other monarchies would still be in power. There wouldn't have been an Arab Cold War or maybe even a War on Terror at all.

>>17088692
Schizo

>>17088260
>>17088485
NTA and I agree that at this point Israel is too established if a state to just remove, but can you at least agree with the idea that creating a Jewish state on Arab lands that late into the 20th century was an idiotic idea? This is one thing I don’t understand about (non Jewish) Israel defenders. I feel like so much conflict could’ve been avoided if you just gave them Kaliningrad or Prussia or anywhere else.

>>17089503
>Inb4 “Islamist” accusations
Arab leaders like Nasser in Egypt were largely secular and progressive. The losses in Israel caused a huge wave of Islamic revivalism and is part of the reason the Middle East is so shit right now. As another anon mentioned there’s no real reason why all those states in the Middle East shouldn’t be friendly with the west aside from Israel. Even the most conservative gulf monarchies are buddies with America so just imagine how a secular Levant would be.