The Confederates were right on all matters Constitutional & Legal but as much as I hate Lincolnian derived America its still hard to defend them because they used the correct interpretation of the federal compact to defend the most repugnant institution of the 19th century.
>>17088931The secession was about slavery but the war was about states rights [to secede].The South was wrong about the first but right about the second.This would be the universally accepted interpretation if people were sane.
>>17088936The dramatic reduction of states' rights in the post-war era is key to understanding why America is the way it is today, and its practically untaught in any civics or history class in the nation. The 14th Amendment has been used to justify reducing states' powers to do a lot of things they were able to do before the war e.g make their own naturalization laws. It makes zero sense why the 14th Amendment was needed in the first place when the Union could have just forced each seceded state to abolish slavery as prerequisite for rejoining the Union after defeated.This idea that the North fought solely, or even primarily, over the issue of slavery is nonsense. They fought for Federal supremacy and that's it.
>>1708895213th and 14th Amendments*
Who gives a shit about slavery? White men died in this degenerate fucking war
>brings and breeds negroes en masse into the americas.>somehow slavery was a good thing
>>17088931how is a state making a unilateral declaration of independence not insurrection or rebellion? Congress is specifically authorized to put down insurrection and rebellion. It seems logical to me then that universal declarations of independence are not rights reserved to the states under the X amendment.
>>17088985Secession isn't an insurrection or rebellion. The seceding states did so democratically, using state assemblies and popular votes. An insurrection would be a rebellion with the specific intent of taking over another state government or the U.S federal government; the C.S.A didn't attempt to do that and didn't want to do it.
>>17089006A UDI will inherently require destroying or capturing the property of the deposed sovereign, and what is that if not rebellion?
>>17089019Why? The seceded states sent commissioners to Washington, where things like distribution of federal properties were to be discussed. Lincoln turned the commissioners away and then reinforced federal forts rather than negotiate with them.There isn't anything inherent to a state democratically voting to secede that suggests rebellion.
>>17089019you mean like the north illegally taxing the south and spending it on infrastructure only in the north?
>>17089021It seems you don't understand what the U stands for in UDI.
>>17089037I'm just ignoring it because its a non-point and retarded. All secessions are unilateral. Sovereign entities don't have to get the agreement of the confederal body they're in to leave; they can just leave. The details are sorted after that.
>>17089053The US is a dual sovereign system and always has been. Again, the constitution gives congress the power to put down rebellions and insurrections. When a state unilaterally declares independence and captures or destroys the sovereign's property it is in a state of rebellion against it.
>>17089053>Sovereign entities don't have to get the agreement of the confederal body they're in to leave; they can just leave.I think that was an open constitutional question that the civil war conclusively answered, don't you?
>>17088931Americans blacks by and large lived healthier, more happy and respectable lives as slaves than they do today.
>>17089073Miguel de Cervantes, the author of Don Quixote, was captured by Barbary pirates and lived as a slave in north africa for 5 years until a ransom could be raised to buy his freedom. Later in life he said that living a single day as a free man and dying that evening was preferable to a long healthy life as a slave.I think he knew better than you do.
>>17089075>barbary pirates are the same as wealthy WASP slave masters in America
>>17089077slavery is slaveryWhat happens to a slave when they refuse to work is the same anywhere in the world. They get beaten until they comply. If they still don't comply or fight back they get beaten to death.This is the system you're defending, pure barbarism.
>>17089082>slavery is slaveryAnd some slave masters treat their slaves better than others. If it was as bad as you imply in America, why did so many slaves return to work for their former masters during the reconstruction, and speak highly of them in memoirs? Comparing slavery in North Africa and in America is just dishonest.
>>17089085>why did so many slaves return to work for their former masters during the reconstruction, and speak highly of them in memoirsdid they, or are you cherry picking sources that are themselves cherry picked?
>>17089087I can find a video explaining what I'm referencing, if you like. Something tells me it won't matter what I show you though, it will all be le cherrypicked
>>17089091Hedging your bets already by accusing me of bad faith before even providing your sources. Pa-thetic
>>17089094https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2010/06/slaves-who-liked-slavery/58678/I can't find the video I was talking about, it was on youtube. Specifically it was a reading of excerpts from I think 3 different memoirs of former slaves. I'm pretty sure it was posted here before, anyone know what I'm talking about?
>>17089107Did you read your article past the first couple paragraphs? You are aware that it argues the opposite of your position and says the black people who remembered their slave days fondly were extreme outliers.
>>17089063No. The Civil War didn't answer it, and it was hardly an open question. States were sovereign entities that created the federal government; it wasn't the other way round as much as it bothers Hamiltonchuds
>>17089127the supreme court said otherwise, and if that is unsatisfactory for you the gun barrel proved itsimple as
>>17089126Do you think The Atlantic is going to come out and say there were lots of content slaves?
>>17089131You're discrediting your own source? Lmao, you're not very good at this.
>>17089134What I'm saying is The Atlantic is obviously going to have a very anti-slavery bias, as all easily digestible modern media does
>>17089130>Wow, these guys overthrew the old constitution at gun point and then made a banana court decision to justify their actions!So, you concede the point then, thanks. The original constitution and the Confederates interpretation of it was accurate, all you have is might is right. At any rate, all it takes is another Supreme Court decision to invalidate Texas v White. That's how useless the Supreme Court is lmao.
>>17089138Explain why his contextual analysis is wrong and yours is right without making bare conclusory statements.
>>17089142The Supreme Court derives its authority from the same source as all authority.
>>17089160Texas v White wasn't codified into federal law because very few agreed with it at the time, and even Chase secretly disagreed with it. It doesn't matter what the Supreme Court says, the 10th Amendment specifically lists what a state is prohibited from doing; secession isn't one of the prohibitions. You've already conceded the point. All you have left is LARPing as some authoritarian when in reality you're a basement dwelling 4chan poster whose mom probably doesn't even trust you enough to use her car to go buy your evening chicken tendies.
>>17089177You're the one conceding when you resort to pathetic insults like this. And you call me an authoritarian while you denigrate the Supreme Court. You're so mixed up you don't even know what your own position is. Maybe spend more time on that and less on insults next time.
>>17088936This is literally just objectively true
>>17089194Lol okay whatever you say
>>17088936>>17088973All things considered, with what we know about black IQ and behaviors, was slavery really that bad?They were productive, they were out of sight, the country was significantly Whiter, most importantly the cities were White.
>>17089006lets just ignore all those pesky federal armories seized across the south before secession
>>17089306I'm with Jefferson on that point. Yes, they are a lesser race, but exploiting them is morally wrong. Leaving them in Africa and treating it as a nature reserve would have been best
>>17088931The british are as responsible for the civil war, with freemasons and cotton tariffs as bad governance. Franklin Pierce's admin solidied that there would be no legal or peaceful resolution to the free/slave state admission, a tenous topic to balance politically. Even the most staunch progressive must see that Abe, indifferent to slavery, did not purchase the freedom of slaves, because that was absolutely not the reason for the civil war. The south had full philosophical and constitutional advantage over the north over secession, however, Abe, used his powers to secure the union. Was this the right call? Probably not based on entitlement spending alone. An organic competing nation should have been permitted to rise and slavery would have ended regardless due to mounting international pressure and domestic pressure. 75% of whites had no slaves, and only 1% had more than 5 slaves. Slavery was going to end without war. Abe's path just ensured that black life would never assimilate into the American experiment. Compare paying a jewish loan for 200 years like the British to 300k dead countrymen like Abe and then ask yourself what was the real purpose of this war
>>17089286I accept your concession of defeat
>>17088952>The dramatic reduction of states' rights in the post-war era is key to understanding why America is the way it is today, andbeg pardon? that was more a result of 20th century progressives.
>>17090017nat, i would say America realized she could not be a states rights nation after the Suez canal and has managed some semblance of state autonomy fairly well
>>17089177>Texas v White wasn't codified into federal law because very few agreed with it at the time, andWas like Loving v. Virginia.
>>17089177>the 10th Amendment specifically lists what a state is prohibited from doing; secession isn't one of the prohibitions.If the secession looks like a "rebellion", the Federal Government can quell it.It must look entirely peaceful to succeed
>>17089306Exploiting, abusing and physically controlling your intellectual inferiors is actually bad, yes.
>>17090067most claims of abuse and whatnot were propaganda
>>17090069Most is not all. And you ignored my point about control, retard. Unless your desire is to be enslaved yourself I would suggest you to stop spouting nonsense.
>>17090092the majority of slaves wanted to keep being slaves
>>17090097and? alcoholics want to remain so as well. Slavery accompanying the philosophy of lower humans was simply to sell the normies to stomach the atrocities in the morality of owning another person. Thats it. Its why men of the time were aware and wished for peace and prosperity in their home land. Of which no attempt to successfully do so with willfully intention was ever done. Nor was assimilation done by the same class of northerners who proclaimed to desire their freedom (just not around us). South was correct constiutionally about a vile institution. Life is a bitch like that sometimes
>>17090120Philosophically if you look at the state of blacks today and how incompetent they are maybe slavery was good for them
>>17090128thats not for you or I to decide. The world and geopolitics were moving away from slavery and the facts were 75% did not own, 24% owned 1-4 slaves and 1% owned more than 5. This dichotomy, had the south say, argued in court legally and seceed , would have led to ending slavery purely to avoid sanctions/tariffs from nations like UK. The state of black life today is more indicative of the way Abe, who does not deserve his acclaim, freed the slaves. Look at other nation examples of assimilation after slavery (not right or wrong) but Brazil and England for example. The racial divide simply doesn't exist. And by contrasting UK and Brazil, miscegenation is not a given either
>>17090145"there's no racial divide in LATAM" is a communist myth, when spics invade the US they take over the black ghettos by force
>>17090160thats not what i meant, the political dynamics don't exist the same as it does in USA. Regardless, Abes model of freeing slavery has undeniably been judged as inferior to others.
>>17090175Latam is the hive of communist racial class warefare
>>17090178youre breaching dynamics of geopolitics following well after. And a superior nation in the north that can influence the winners and losers
>>17090186Geopolitics? Do you think only one country had influence over latam?
>>17090199firstly, i used brazil which has never been communist, where are you moving the goal posts bc you're ignorant? Go back to class
>>17090205You don't have to be a communist country to be influenced by communist racial and religious class warfare. The US was heavily targeted
>>17089785>>17090067>exploitingexploiting?They lived in unparalleled safety and comfort under the tutelage of Whites.>>17090092>controlwho cares about control? We control children all the time. Women were controlled and not controlling women has been catastrophic, even young men were controlled and them being emancipated has been almost as bad as women.Make the case against slavery, why shouldnt a lesser people be integrated vertically under the tutelage of a greater race?
>>17090145>thats not for you or I to decideActually it is.>geopolitics was moving away from slaveryNo, the British were moving away from slavery, the majority of the world still practiced slavery until Whites showed up and decided slavery was immoral.>sanctions tariffsunlikely given how the UK supported the South despite its slavery for political reasons.The UK would literally send soldiers to garrison and defend the South had they successfully separated from the Union, slavery or not, we know this because British analysts were already predicting the US would surpass them in production and eventually world hegemony, and thats exactly what happened.>black life isnt the result of black choicesYoure not a serious person.black life outcome is a result of IQ.black women have the highest level of educational attainment of any minority group in the US, even higher than asiatics.its not a racism problem, its not a legacy of discrimination problem, it never was, its a behavior problem. Its not even all blacks, its just black men.
>>17088931Respectfully I have reservations about whether they were legally in the right. It's subject to argument. Certainly the Secessionists believed they were, but in certain ways they hedged their arguments, and they also correctly assumed that their actions were sure to be interpreted as crimes. They knew it was an untested case. If they were confident in their position, they should have expected the Court to rule in favor of Secession, and then the thing would be settled without blood or all the uncertainty. After all, Texas v. White could be easily seen as victor's justice.South Carolina for its part hedged by claiming that nullification of the FSA by free states constituted a dissolution of the Constitution in itself, and that they were effectively no longer bound to it. Sort of sidestepping the principle that THEY could be the ones to sever their own obligations to the USC, which they nonetheless believed they could. States following after them used a version of this argument or didn't bother. States seceding after Federal mobilization were handed an arguably easier argument.Your conclusion is definitely right though. Even though it might be a valid opinion that they had the legal right to secede unilaterally, that's no reason to champion them or their cause. So you respect the right to form your own country -- sure -- but what kind of country? We can certainly make moral judgments of what people choose to do within the law, and we also all recognize that laws can be unjust, which is why they can be changed.>>17089021Secessionist militias seized Federal assets well before Lincoln was in office. More like ransom than negotiation. It's also a very valid question whether they had standing to negotiate in the first place.
>>17090294You must know that’s not trueYeah by and large American slaves weren’t treated as bad as in Haiti but to frame like you are is so disingenuous
>>17090145>Abe, who does not deserve his acclaimyes he does
