Is Christmas really pagan?
Yeah
>>17091205>YeahIt seems like the Reformed are the only Christians who are honest about that.
>>17091161It's literally called Christ's mass, you place a sculpture representing christ's birth and atop him a tree with a star precisely as described in the gospels and little stars as the stars of the firmament
>>17091161YeahIn the same way smoking medical marijuana is okay for Christians because it's medical
>>17091161IT IS THE CELEBRATION OF CHRIST'S BIRTH —WHAT DO YOU THINK?
A common charge made today is that Christmas was originally a pagan festival. Those who make this assertion generally argue that because two Roman pagan festivals took place around December 25th every year: Saturnalia (in honour of the god Saturn) and Die Natalis Solis Invicti (Birth of the Unconquered Sun), that Christmas was merely an adaption of these holidays. According to this narrative, when Christianity became the dominant religion in Rome in the 4th century, the Church chose December 25th in order to replace these major pagan festivals with a major Christian one (the birth of Christ) so that the people would forget all about the pagan festivals.However, Saturnalia was a festival that began on December 17th and carried on until December 23rd at the latest, which is too early for December 25th. If there was any attempt to replace Saturnalia with Christmas, Christmas would have been set to December 17th or 23rd; not the 25th. Although the date of December 25th was officially set in 350 AD, the belief in the date of December 25th as the birth of Christ can be traced back in written record to as early as 204 AD in a text written by St. Hippolytus of Rome in his Commentary on Daniel. In it, St. Hippolytus explicitly mentions that Jesus was born eight days before the Kalends of January (which is December 25th in our modern calendar).The date of December 25th actually came about because March 25th had already been determined as the date of Jesus’ conception; as a logical consequence, nine months after March 25th (when we celebrate the conception of Jesus), we celebrate on December 25th the day Jesus was born.
>>17091161yeah, I was talking with a mexican and he brought it up, said it was catholic and for catholics, and not christian. Really redpilled me.
>>17091161Is “Christ-Mass” Pagan?Truly a question for the ages.
The stuff you do at a Christian church? No.The stuff you don't do at church? Yes.
>>17091161And so is Easter
>>17091243>>17091668You realize it's not called Christmas in all languages, right?
>>17091570Dumbass
>>17091243>you place a sculpture representing christ's birthyou mean an 8 pointed star or an 'angel'. youre thinking of nativity scenes, which dont go on top of trees, but youve never actually been to church so you wouldnt know thatsee >>17091205
>>17091570you conveniently ignore yule, which is attested as being a pre-christian ritual. you also ignore all the rituals around christmas that obviously have pagan origins; like gift-giving. this was a very central element of saturnalia
>>17091701Okay, and?
>>17091570>we celebrate on December 25th the day Jesus was born.Right, and the Bible says that he was born in October, so the Christ Mass being on 12/25 is an attempt at coopting existing Roman sentiment regarding Saturnalia after Christians and Jews were in power and no longer had to fear accidentally partaking in Saturnalia.
>>17091724It should tell you something
>>17091733>no longer had to fear accidentally partaking in Saturnaliawait what? why couldnt christians do saturnalia?
>>17091733>Right, and the Bible says that he was born in OctoberIt doesn't. It doesn't say he was born Dec 25 either. Who cares what day, exactly, Jesus was born? Being obsessed over such a thing reeks of superstition.
>>17091737>superstitionright, which is a pagan thing, not a christian one. the only holidays in the bible are jewish ones, like passover and channukah
>>17091740There is nothing in the Bible which precludes having a new holiday, especially in the New Testament.
>>17091705>>17091719Yule was traditionally celebrated around the time of the winter solstice, which usually occurs between December 20 and December 23. When Christianity spread across Europe, many pagan festivals were adapted or replaced by Christian celebrations. Christmas was set to December 25, possibly to coincide with or supplant earlier pagan festivals like Yule or the Roman Saturnalia. However, Yule and Christmas were not always celebrated on the exact same day. Yule originally spanned multiple days, often from the solstice until the beginning of January, whereas Christmas is celebrated specifically on December 25. Over time, many Yule traditions were absorbed into Christmas celebrations, such as the Yule log.That being said:>Saint Boniface came across some Germanic pagans who were planing on sacrificing a child to an Oak Tree dedicated to Thor>Saint Boniface says the following: “Hearken, sons of the forest! No blood shall flow this night save that which pity has drawn from a mother’s breast. For this is the birth-night of the Christ, the son of the Almighty, the Savior of mankind. Fairer is He than Baldur the Beautiful, greater than Odin the Wise, kinder than Freya the Good. Since He has come, sacrifice is ended. The dark, Thor, on whom you have vainly called, is dead. Deep in the shades of Niffelheim, he is lost forever. And now on this Christ-night, you shall begin to live. This blood- tree shall darken your land no more. In the name of the Lord, I will destroy it!”>Saint Boniface took an Ax and chopped down the Oak Tree.
>>17091744>There is nothing in the Bible which precludes having a new holiday, especially in the New Testament.>7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.>8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.>9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.>10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:>11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.>12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;>13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
>>17091736Saturnalia was the most widely beloved of Greco-Roman holidays, and is also the best attested (going back to around 400BC). It's the Roman iteration of the Pan-Indo-European winter-solstice gift-giving holiday (yes, the Romans gave eachother Saturnalia presents). It was also a period of public revelry and worship of the divine in an earnest and sincere manner rather than through public ritualisms and hierarchy.Jews and Christians didn't like this because it's, well, literally gentile religion writ large across society. The ENTIRE society stopped what it was doing and partook in the festivities, which Christiand and Jews felt was an assault on them as the Chosen Tribe. The Talmud goes so far as to say that Jews should stay inside their houses and not interact with gentiles during the entire period (several days) to avoid accidentally partaking in the fun and festivities. When the Christ Mass (a mass celebrating Jesus's birth) was pegged to 12/25 it was to co-opt the Romans' love of Saturnalia. We know that it wasn't because Jesus actually was born on that day because the official explanation is rooted in Jewish numerology (tl;dr a Rabbinic belief that people are born and die on the same day of the year), whereas the Bible is clear that he was born in October. This fed into the controversy surrounding the dating of Passover, which was fitted to 3/25 to fit the aforementioned Rabbinic numerology.
>>17091737>It doesn't.Oh you're one of those "you don't have to read the bible to be a christian" types. Here, let me help you.https://letmegooglethat.com/?q=jesus+born+in+october
>>17091754You're a dunce. I don't believe anyone should be COMMANDED to keep a holiday in the New Testament. But we have the liberty to esteem such days as holy if we are so inclined.
>>17091749>quote about saint bonifacethat quote is obviously fake. there was nothing about a child sacrifice at donnars oak in the original attestation. why would saint boniface know anything about bladur, odin or freya? they werent even called by those names in continental germania at the time; those are modern english renderings of old nordic names from the 1000s. where did you even get this quote? its very obviously fake
>>17091737>It doesn't.Actually...https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Date_of_the_birth_of_Jesus
>>17091740>channukahThat was never in the OT, it was man-made Holiday to celebrate the rededication of the the Temple described in Maccabees trilogy. Jesus (God Himself) celebrated it in the New Testament.
>>17091765Dude... you're reading the quote in English....
>>17091765Google is giving me really low quality Catholic nonsense, but they don't actually cite the source.>>17091770The entire passage is>Now at that time many of the Hessians, brought under the Catholic faith and confirmed by the grace of the sevenfold spirit, received the laying on of hands; others indeed, not yet strengthened in soul, refused to accept in their entirety the lessons of the inviolate faith. Moreover some were wont secretly, some openly to sacrifice to trees and springs; some in secret, others openly practiced inspections of victims and divinations, legerdemain and incantations; some turned their attention to auguries and auspices and various sacrificial rites; while others, with sounder minds, abandoned all the profanations of heathenism, and committed none of these things. With the advice and counsel of these last, the saint attempted, in the place called Gaesmere, while the servants of God stood by his side, to fell a certain oak of extraordinary size, which is called, by an old name of the pagans, the Oak of Jupiter. And when in the strength of his steadfast heart he had cut the lower notch, there was present a great multitude of pagans, who in their souls were earnestly cursing the enemy of their gods. But when the fore side of the tree was notched only a little, suddenly the oak's vast bulk, driven by a blast from above, crashed to the ground, shivering its crown of branches as it fell; and, as if by the gracious compensation of the Most High, it was also burst into four parts, and four trunks of huge size, equal in length, were seen, unwrought by the brethren who stood by. At this sight the pagans who before had cursed now, on the contrary, believed, and blessed the Lord, and put away their former reviling. Then moreover the most holy bishop, after taking counsel with the brethren, built from the timber of the tree a wooden oratory, and dedicated it in honor of Saint Peter the apostle.
>>17091779>>17091770Right, sorry, 2k characters got eaten up by the actual passage.The myth in the Life of Saint Boniface doesn't have any of that. The quote isn't from the actual text, which says nothing about Baldr, Odin, and Freyja, nor about human sacrifice, or Thor. Also, he's telling the story wrong, as the tree gets blown over by the wind, not from Boniface himself.Googling with quotes gets me the earliest source as being a blog post from 2014.
>>17091779https://t.me/s/Catholicaesthetic/3141heres a telegram tradcath memerhttps://digitalmissioners.com/2019/12/the-christmas-tree/heres some dubious website that offers no source>https://opcypsupport.arlingtondiocese.org/support/solutions/articles/44002497954-st-boniface-and-the-christmas-treeand heres another dubious website that again, offers no source>>17091770anon, why would saint boniface, a christian priest, be referencing old norse deities and mythical locations? if the quote is real, then an original version of the quote exists in whatever language it was first written in, and would reference them by regional names, which would vary from tribe to tribe in germany. we arent even sure if some of those things existed in germanic mythology. there is very little evidence for a cult of baldur being present in germany save some charms and chants that *might* be referencing his name based on linguistic similarities. we similarly have very little evidence for any concept of niflheim in germanic mythology; we dont even know what the germans called niflheim if such a concept existed within their cosmology, because there are no written texts about it within the germanic corpus. that is how I know that quote is fake as shit. he didnt say any of that crap, and they didnt sacrifice a child at donnars oak. catholics spin more lies as the ages go on it seems; the desperation of their dying church seems to drive them to such duplicity. picrel is the altar of the cathedral of saint john the divine in new york; which houses one of the finest shrines to saint boniface in america. truly fitting.
>>17091828Actually, I've got you beat:https://mtncatholic.wordpress.com/2014/12/23/thor-stboniface-and-the-origin-of-the-christmas-tree/He citeshttp://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/68.asp (dead)https://web.archive.org/web/20120229050858/http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/columns/williamsaunders/straightanswers/68.aspHere we go, this is it.He doesn't have a source, he's just making shit up. He says that Christmas Trees came about because Boniface told the Frisians to take fir trees into their houses to decorate instead of using oak trees (which is actually pretty funny because the Medieval church condemned the decorating of trees period and the entire reason that the tree is indoors in the first place is because publicly decorating trees at Yule was a crime).>why would saint boniface, a christian priest, be referencing old norse deities...Just to add to what you're saying: "Baldr" is the nominative singular of the word "bald-", which is the Old Norse cognate with the modern English "bold". That "-r" is the nominative singular morphological inflection, and the shift from "-az" to "-r" is unique to Old Norse. Boniface was executed for his crimes in Frisia, and at the time the Frisian cognate of the word "bold" was... "bold". The Norse word "Freyja" just means "lady", and it's cognate with the English "free" and the Old Frisian "frowe". The lack of attestation of her by that name outside of Scandinavia is actually a mythological point of novelty, so if this quote were legit it would be a huge deal and the earliest source wouldn't be a Catholic blog from 2014. I'm not going to both getting into the bit about Thor and Odin.
>>17091570interesting how you don't mention the birth of sol invictis againhow about you tell us what date that was celebrated on?
>>17091161Keep in mind that the west uses the gregorian calendar now, which has the winter solstice as a set date around 20-22 of december forever. But that wasn't the case before the 16th century, so the julian calendar has the solstice moving every century:>0 AD - December 22>500 - December 19>1000 - December 15>1300 - December 13>1500 - December 12>2000 - December 8Which makes overlapping with the 25th impossible - pagans would still track the sun and look for equinox, while your christian date would be fixed from counting +365 days. Unless you want to make the argument that Christianity started in the 16th century...
>>17092641sol invictis was created after Christmas.
what is the eastern orthodox position on christmas?
>>17091161Winter solstice celebrations existed before and independently of Abrahamism.Christianity is a Jewish heresy and serves their interests.
>>17093030No he wasn't.
>>17094888January 6, 7, and 16, depending on which form of Orthodoxy you adhere to. The tl;dr is that early Christians used the Jewish calendar, and then the Gregorian calendar. It wasn't until the 1500s that the Julian calendar was created to stop lost days from occuring.
>>17095681Yeah but what about the tree and the presents and stuff?
>>17095685Oh, that's all obviously blasphemous Paganism sourced from Asatru, it has nothing to do with Christianity, and you're going straight to hell if you partake. If you happen to by accident then you can pay your local Orthodox priest to absolve you of your sins.
>>17095681>It wasn't until the 1500s that the Julian calendar was created>>17095693>pay your local Orthodox priest to absolve you of your sins.Dude you're full of fail lmaoLiterally every single sentence you wrote is wrong.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregorian_calendar>The Gregorian calendar was a reform of the Julian calendar.
No, it is a celebration of the birth of Christ.
>>17091161Yes, Timmy, that means only pagans get gifts from Santa Claus - or as he's better known: the Yule Goat.
