I don't get it. You pay a tax to the Muslim authorities which effectively pays for your protection and allows you to practice your religion freely and you are exempt from participating in wars and nobody is allowed to harm you.What is wrong with this? Seems like a much more fairer system than the system we have today where everyone is taxed to death with a million different taxes and fleeced by the authorities and you have no say in what your taxes are spent on.
Tired of this larp. Jizya isn’t a thing anymore and never will be
>>17272281>Why do people not like persecutionwho knows
>>17272281because they want to be able to murder any heretic who doesn't believe God is actually bread
>>17272286How is this persecution? Paying a small fee to the authorities to look after your wellbeing? If anything this is a protection against oppression.
>>17272286>taxation is prosecution
>>17272281>why don't people like to pay protection money>also taxes are le bad2/8
Taxation is theft
>>17272281they have to find *something* to bitch about otherwise they might have to start examining their behaviour
>>17272281>pay extra for the "privilege" of being disarmed>trust us, we're not at all going to abuse your helplessness
>>17272346>>17272326>>17272286okay so please explain how a feudal lord requiring labour for protection (entire basis of feudalism, a systep propagated and supported by the catholic church and the patriarchs of orthodoxy at the time) is okay, but requiring a tax for protection AND exeption from conscription/military service is somehow not okay?
>>17272365>requiring a tax for protectionProtection is the main reason people pay taxes to the state.If the state is demanding you pay taxes on top of the normal amount to protect you, it means you're not receiving your due from paying basic taxes.>AND exeption from conscription/military serviceDevshirme was literally the legal kidnapping of christian children to make them into convert soldiers. There was no exemption from service nor freedom of worship guaranteed by jizya, only the pretense of it.Not to mention that being effectively banned from holding any degree of military power is not a privilege, it's subjection. It's just an attempt to keep your subjects harmless.
>>17272427>If the state is demanding you pay taxes on top of the normal amount to protect youif you're not paying taxes you're a criminal, idk what to tell you>Devshirme1) not in the quran, it was an ottoman practice not an islamic practice 2) exempt from jizyait's like blaming the bible on the indain tea act
>>17272427jizya is a cuckstam tax that shows that you're willing to play by the rules and stay in your lane, as opposed to starting an armed insurrection. if you refuse to pay up on principle it means you're probably up to no good, makes sense to me seeing how everyone in this thread is seething about it, they'd probably be just as seething back then, which would be trouble.
>>17272427>If the state is demanding you pay taxes on top of the normal amountBut that's false.Jizya replaces other taxes applied to commoners
>>17272281Sorry dummy but Christians were exempt so long as they were practicing their religion.
>>17272281>allows you to practice your religion freelyThis lie will never be true no matter how many times you state it.
>>17272480explain why there are still christians in muslim countries but no muslims survived in christian countries until like the 19th century or so
>>17272446Which is used for welfare, which is exclusively shared with muslims.So my ass is paying money to not get murdered, while also being excluded from military, political and judicial power, meanwhile you are paying to get a welfare system.This is why your culture is inferior, Abdul.
>>17272495Wellfare for people who also paying taxes?>So my ass is paying money to not get murdered, while also being excluded from military, political and judicial power, meanwhile you are paying to get a welfare system.So just like catholics in protestant countries?
>>17272495>while also being excluded from militarysince when is that a bad thing?by the way, in regimes where christians participated in the military, they were excluded from jizya>So my ass is paying money to not get murderedyes your taxes pay for the police, it's like this everywhere
>>17272488>no muslims survived in christian countriesOMFG you're even more retarded than one thought possible.>explain why there are still christians in muslim countriesBecause they're not going to just roll over and die like you wish they did. What kind of retarded question is that, adbul? It doesn't mean they're free to practice their religion when it's so heavily restricted. The regular outbursts of violence against them also testifies to this.
>>17272488Plenty of turkic muslims in Eastern Europe and Siberia have been doing just fine in christian countries.Also, i love the standard for "freedom of religion" is "they aren't ALL extinct, are they?"
>>17272506>OMFG you're even more retarded than one thought possible.how many muslims in post-reconquista spain and portugal?
>>17272502>in regimes where christians were armed and politically enabled, muslims were unable to impose jizya
>>17272506>it's so heavily restricted.How heavily?
>>17272513>jizya is a tax that compensates for lack of military service>if you do military service you don't pay it>this is hypocrisy actually
>>17272511>Plenty of turkic muslims in Eastern Europe and Siberia have been doing just fine Circasian genocide?First Balkan War?Yugoslavian wars?
>>17272511haha yes yes bosnia famous for being a genocide-free land :)
>>17272281We in charge now, pay up dhimmi
>>17272520>jizya is a choicelmao
>>17272500>>17272502Once again, the only defence muslims can pull is nonsensical attempts at whataboutism.Your prophet is a cocksucker that should have been beaten to death for the blasphemy of pretending a rotten dog like him, with such mobster tier ideas, was a holy man.>>17272521>>17272527I said plenty.
>>17272527Christians will shout remove kebab in one thread and in the next claim they were innocent peace loving dindus.
>>17272538>you have to pay these taxes>you can get excempt from this tax if you're in the military>hurr durr so ur saying taxes are a choice???
>>17272539>nonsensical attempts at whataboutism.how is that nonsense?we're directly comparing to the alternative at the time
>>17272551>you can get excemptYou can't though. Not unless you're kidnapped, enslaved and converted as a child.
>>17272553you do know that there were more muslim countries than just the ottoman empire right? and the system you're referring to got abolished later you also do know that the jannisaries weren't the only military formation in the country right?
>>17272517You can't even preach the Gospel to muslims, which forbids christianity's most important command. Just because you let them have mass doesn't mean their religion is genuinely allowed.
>>17272552it's nonsense because you are exposing their hypocrisy
>>17272281>pay more taxes that are designed to oppress you
>>17272559>christianity's most important command.Their religion has no such thing. Literally all you have to do is believe in human sacrifice paying off your debt of being born human and you're good to go.
>>17272565>protected from horrible persecution at the hands of other Christians who believe slightly differently than you>waaah I am oppressed by lower taxes!
>>17272559>Just because you let them have mass doesn't mean their religion is genuinely allowed.It's bigger than other religions allows them.
>>17272539>I said plenty.So less than christians in muslim countries
>>17272562Hypocrisy are meaningless logical fallacies(tu quoques and ad hominens).I wonder why the All-Wise Creator of existence uses these tactics so much in the Quran, then.You'd except Allah to not fail Logic 101.
>>17272281The ottomans straight up took people's children and raped and ravaged in many towns and villages. People were not safe. But ok, if u don't think it's bad, stay crazy
>>17272557You do know most muslim polities used some variant of slave soldiers, right?The only real difference was the age cutoff for your enslavement, forced conversion and conscription.
>>17272594the christian british and the israeli jews killed many many children like that, the british fought several wars to sell opium to chinese children
>>17272599>You do know most muslim polities used some variant of slave soldiers, right?source? conscription doesn't count, because then we'd be counting exec
>>17272606Daniel Pipes (1981). Slave Soldiers and Islam: The Genesis of a Military System
>>17272592Tatars are fine, and so is central Asia.So, no, not killing them all is not freedom of religion, you genocidal goat fucker.
>>17272365People didn't like paying protection money to feudal lords either champ, especially after the 18th century.We also no longer like child marriages, slavery, beheading pagans and heretics, religious courts etc, hope that helps.
>>17272593>Hypocrisy are meaninglessAre you one of those recent colonization victims bro? Also no it shows that you have nothing but lies to fall back on since you don't actually care about the criticism you are dishing out. it's really funny how christards play pretend victims when we all know they burned people left and right for their beliefs
>>17272298>>17272300kek these niggas would willingly pay into a mafia protection racket
>>17272611>no longer likedid God send you an update? a patch for your objective morality? all of you abrahamics are the same kek
>>17272608page number?
>>17272281Because paying taxes just to not practice one religion is retarded. I don't want to pay higher taxes just to not be Muslim
>>17272617I'm not religious.
>>17272589>muslim whataboutismStill outlawed.>>17272572>Matthew 28:18-20 “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”>This is a direct, imperative command like that of a parent who would command their children to get out of the middle of the street. There is no plan B. Jesus tells the disciples and He tells us that “you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:8). This commandment of the Great Commission is given three times. Twice in the gospels (Matthew and Mark) and once just before He ascended (Acts 1:8) so this is of particular importance to Christ. Any command or statement that Jesus ever gives more than once is always held to be of supreme importance and we are told to go and make disciples of all nations, to teach them what Jesus teaches us, and to go into all the world, even if its next door.
>>17272599>You do know most muslim polities used some variant of slave soldiers, right?You do know that slave-soldiers were elite, and weren't sold to other owners like European conscripts?>>17272610>Tatars are fineDo they?>and so is central Asia.It's almost like Russian rulership there lasted less then 2 centuries.
>>17272622how were muslim preachers treated in reconquista spain?
>>17272622>Still outlawed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBdF3qyO2zU
>>17272622>works based salvationsome of your fellow Christians will murder you for even implying that
tldr: Muslims agreed that feeding non whites juice and crackers to make them slaves in the kingdom of heaven was not the will of God.
>>17272281>to practice your religion freelyYou might stretching it with the term freely. The dhimmi system had restrictions that would be considered bad by the standards of liberal societies. They may have been better than other forms of second-class citizenship that have existed in the past, but I'm not interested in the kind of relativistic thinking which would use it to justify that kind of behavior today. > are exempt from participating in wars Minorities that are incorporated into the military are always treated better. Taking away their access to military training and weapons just makes it easier to hold them hostage. Second, the only people on Earth to have ever seen war in and of itself as bad are a subset of Westerners after WWI. the attitude that you're doing anyone a favor by sparing them from war just isn't one that has ever or could ever exist in an Islamic society.
>>17272612My man, this is basic logic.If your god and religion is so moronic, it kneejerk resorts to logical fallacies to defend itself, that's not my problem.Go tell Allah and Mohammed to visit me, so i can teach them to be wise, instead of drooling imbeciles.
>>17272443>if you refuse to pay up on principle it means you're probably up to no good, makes sense to me seeing how everyone in this thread is seething about it, they'd probably be just as seething back then, which would be trouble.>NOO YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SEE BEING PUT INTO SECOND-CLASS CITIZENSHIP BY US AS AN HONOR!!
>>17272627Muslims in Spain were foreign colonizers, all Arabs and Berbers who colonized. Not to mention that they were restricted to the ruling elite and were never the majority of the population. Oh, and the so-called "Islamic golden age" only existed because of documents looted from Christian monasteries. Muslims never produced anything new
>>17272650>Muslims in Spain were foreign colonizersAs opposed to goths in Iberia or slavs in Balkan?
>>17272552>we're directly comparing to the alternative at the timeThe alternatives at the time are irrelevant. There is not a single aspect of Islam that can be looked at with this kind of relativism because if given the chance Muslims today would implement such rules again.
>>17272627Allowing one to practice a religion that openly calls for your suppression wouldn't have been feasible. Remember islam is picrel and started the attack against christian countries, not the other way around.>>17272632>let me try to change topic because I'm unable to refute what you're saying
>>17272627They got a taste of their own medicine.
>>17272665>muslims let christians do their thing, but ask them not to bother muslims and jews: tyrrany>christians and jews murder muslims: "had to be done, this just proves how evil muslims are, just wasn't feasable keeping them around"
>>17272365Literally no one except edgy TradCaths idolizes feudalism in the modern day.
>>17272665>and started the attack against christian countriesSuch as..?
>>17272670>but ask them not to bother muslimstranslation: forbid them from preaching the Gospel, Jesus' most important command
>>17272677>Jesus' most important commandBut Christians doesn't consider itThjey are completely fine with such bans
>jizz-yaMeanwhile in reality Muslims did shit like pic related
>>17272646>thinks God needs men to defend himLook I know your deities have problems with iron chariots and wrestling with human beings but this is ridiculous. The only reason you don't like it when you are called out on your deception is because it hurts. It shows you that you don't have any actual point against the religion
>>17272670>>muslims let christians do their thing, but ask them not to bother muslims and jews: tyrranyNot letting them have a house larger than a Muslim or be able to testify against a Muslim in court and other restrictions is certainly a system that would appeal to them. >christians and jews murder muslims: "had to be done, this just proves how evil muslims are, just wasn't feasable keeping them around"The people who are the victims of a group that has actively harming them as one of their core beliefs shouldn't be expected to give tolerance towards that hostile group.It's why the whole "genocide" claim against groups like Bosnian and Palestinians is a little silly. The cry about it only because it's happening to them because being opposed to genocide in and of itself would violate their religious beliefs.
>>17272679>They are completely fine with such bansPeople at the mercy of a violent, oppressive government are totally happy with the restrictions placed on them re totally happy with the restrictions placed on them.
>>17272665>change topicNah, you don't need to do anything in Christianity according to you people. Whatever commandment Jesus supposedly gave does not need to be done because you are already saved by blood
>>17272665>picWhy are lawyers always such psychos?
>>17272684Better to be an elite than cannon fodderhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessian_(soldier)>Another exception was the small German state of Hesse-Kassel, which was effectively run by its ruler at a profit through the hiring out of his subjects as mercenaries to other states. Involvement in the management of his huge investment portfolio was one of the first steps Mayer Amschel Rothschild took in order to become a banker rather than a mere coin dealer (his original business)>The House of Rothschild: Money's Prophets 1798-1848
>>17272694Yes they are. They even cheer for it
>>17272689>victimsHow exactly serbs in Bosnia are victims?
>>17272662They actually did, in some african country, and some proposed doing it in Bangladesh(instead, they started murdering them).This is why Islam is worthless.Retarded, mafia tier rules, and somehow they manage to break even those.
>>17272686More whataboutism.Again, ill tutor your god in logic, if you ask nicely.
>>17272689>"genocide" claim against groups like Bosnian and Palestinians is a little sillyYou have revealed yourself viper
>>17272698Jannies were cannon fodder, the chance for those boys to end up as some kind of Pasha was minimal, probably lower than the chance of being turned into a dancing boy for hornyturks.
>>17272712>Jannies were cannon fodder,They were elite. Bashibozuk and Akinci were cannon fodder
>this entire threadproving OP's pointyou'll notice that muslims ITT are going>we didn't genocide christians, we would never do such a thing, we were very nice to them and christians ITT are going>yeah, we killed muslims, and that's a GOOD thing>>17272689who's the evil ones here?
>>17272495>>17272709>>17272710>reddit spacing>logic
>>17272710>doesn't even know how to use the word
>>17272703And? Go watch the video from Kim Jong-Il's funeral for something similar.
>>17272714Nonsense, they were regular frontline soldiers who would spearhead assaults and suffer heavy casualties.
>>17272708They're historical victims of the Turks and their lackeys. >>172727111. Not a jew in the slightest.2. It's rather telling that you resorted to calling me one rather than deomnstrating that Muslims are capable of caring about genocide in and of itself.
>>17272602>whatabout this headcanon?
>>17272728>opium wars are now headcanon
>>17272730Those werent fought to sell opium to Chinese children
>>17272726>historical victimsNo such thing, Ivan, get over it.>of the Turks and their lackeys.Half of lackeys used to be serbian subjects, the other half served hungarians. Also, doesn't answer the question what serbs were doing in Bosnia.
>>17272717>>we didn't genocide christians, we would never do such a thing, we were very nice to themAnd it's been pointed out that that they weren't actually that nice to them.>yeah, we killed muslims, and that's a GOOD thingPeople defending themselves against an aggressive group were happy with defending themselves. There's no hypocrisy here. >who's the evil ones here?The Imperialistic, genocidal terror cult that wants to subjugate the entire world.
>>17272726You are perfectly fine with tens of thousands of children being massacred and millions displaced. Stop pretending you have any moral high ground here.>confusing joo with zio shillsclassic deflection tactic
>>17272722>they were regular frontline soldiersWith best training and equipment, so suffered less casualties than other branches of ottoman militia.
>>17272740>The Imperialistic, genocidal terror cult that wants to subjugate the entire world.you mean this one?
>>17272740>The Imperialistic, genocidal terror cult that wants to subjugate the entire world.>btw I am not Jew
>>17272281but aren't you paying a lot more than a muslim? that's one reason mulsims didn't push conversion in the territories they conquered, because the more christians they had, the more money they made
>>17272718>>17272720Yeah, man, your god is an idiot.Dont worry, ill try to teach such a mentally disabled creature.
>>17272741>You are perfectly fine with tens of thousands of children being massacred and millions displaced. Stop pretending you have any moral high ground here.If the majority of them practice a religion that encourages their conquests and subjugation of non believers, then I have no room for sympathy. If you want me to feel differently go back in time and tell Muhammad not say the prophecies about conquering Rome and Constantinople. >zioshillI don't want Israel to continue existing. I want the Middle East, Israel included, to be depopulated and run as an automated oil extraction project.
>>17272740>mass killing civilians is totally a defensive action!!
>>17272744Yes, capitalism is an imperialistic, genocidal religion. Islam is very similar to it which isn't surprising given the mercantile background of its founder.
>>17272743Yeah right. Stop trying to make kidnapping children work dude, the Devshirme was cruel and a means to humiliate and commit genocide on the local Christians.
>>17272756>I DINDU NUFFIN MAN
>>17272756Islam is a warrior religion with a legal, political, and cultural system designed to conquer and dismantle all non believing societies. There's no such thing a a Muslim civilian.
>>17272763>the Devshirme was cruelAs opposed to selling your own countrymen?
>>17272737>No such thing, Ivan, get over it.Nah, I'd consider if if this person got over the Reconquista: >>17272512Muslims care a lot about historical victims, but they believe one can only be a victim of something if they are a Muslim.
>>17272767What the fuck are you babbling about?
>>17272766>Islam is a warrior religionIt's not hinduism.
>>17272755>I have no room for sympathy.for children getting shot in the head because I don't understand the religion of their parentsYou aren't even human anymore. Good thing you don't have any actual power to harm others>to be depopulated and run as an automated oil extraction projectEven if you aren't one (lmao fat chance) you think identically like one. The only difference is you want your favorite group to be the chosen.
>>17272773About selling your own countrymen as soldiers to the foreign powers.
>>17272766>Islam si a warri-ACK
>>17272775Okay, but it's the more effective warrior religion that to this day has followers that are making every place they go more violent and less prosperous.
>>17272784>but it's the more effective warrior religionHow so?
>>17272782What does that have to do with Turks going around the Balkan kidnapping children? Thats something I would expect to happen when like Ted Bundy becomes King. And yeah, thats a lot different from letting young men or even teens sign up to a mercenary company.
>>17272787Because by metric, Muslims have proven to be better at violent expansionism than Hindus have.
>>17272281Christianity has historically always been oppressive, with pretty much every other culture they encountered to the point many were outright genocided.
>>17272790I mean Hindus have proven to be able to resist Islam effectively, which is supposed to be the better at violent expantionism. So I'd say they even themselves out.
>>17272794Like who?
>>17272790>Because by metric,By which metric and what it have to do with warrior religion?
>>17272794Should have converted sooner, then.
>>17272799Pagans in Europe, Pagans in the Americas, Pagans in Asia, Muslims and everyone else
>>17272365>Okay, so, please explain how a feudal lord requiring labour for protection>feudalFirst things first, nobody wants to live in feudalism, nor be subjected to feudal rules & fiscalism, nor be fooled by mahommedan hidden rules & fiscalism that resembles feudalism. Sharia is hardcore feudalism invented in the desert, in the Middle East. OK? Secondly...>but requiring a tax for protection AND exemption from conscription/military service is somehow not okay?How many taxes & dues are infidels are supposed to pay and how much different in pay is that, compared to average mahommedan? No lying, no omission, no takkiya. You won't get far with people that already know you have a thing for lying casually & breaking promises at later dates. Yes, that's the perception mahommedans give, and no amount of public theater will convince anyone otherwise.Also...>jizyaHere's the thing — either EVERYONE pays the same rate of taxes, OR you're extorting a group or several groups via threats, gaslighting, and lies, manipulating into persuading them that “it's for *their own good*” (listen, pay attention; no pun intended). Either EVERYONE pays the same taxes OR you're slowly killing off groups of people into accepting mahommedanism by stochastic pressure akin to self-preservation, neglected in such a way they're forced disappeared regardless, by each passing generation. And finally... >exemption from militaryMilitary for what, against whom? Is military obligatory? Who decided that?
>>17272804>Pagans in Europeok, the last time Christians went Deus Vult on European pagans was the Northern Crusader which ended over 600 years ago. Meanwhile the latest incidents of Muslims assaulting "infidels" are like from the 1970s in India, Cyprus and Lebanon. >Pagans in the Americas, Pagans in Asia, MuslimsDidnt happen
>>17272804It's not "oppression" to erradicate evil.
>>17272780>You aren't even human anymore. Good thing you don't have any actual power to harm othersWhen a person converts to Islam the say a phrase that more or less amounts to a pledge of allegiance against humanity. Again, if there was any indication that these people were actually opposed to imperialism and genocide, I might think differently, but as far as I can tell, they would have to radically change their position on their religion's founder in order to do so. To really convince me, they would have to put the idols back up in the Kaaba and leave Mecca. The reason this thread even exists is because a Muslim wanted to defend violent, imperialistic policies. >Even if you aren't one (lmao fat chance) you think identically like one. The only difference is you want your favorite group to be the chosen.In an ideal world, which is the only kind of world where this sort of thing could happen, it would be collectively owned and resources would evenly distributed around the world according to the needs of people. Zionism is a colonialist resettlement project. They want jews to take over and occupy land. I want land to be emptied out entirely and for a few people as possible to live in the region. If anything the logic is almost exactly the opposite.
>>17272810>First things first, nobody wants to live in feudalism,To be fair, the incumbent vice president of the US more or less does
>>17272812>ok, the last time Christians went Deus Vult on European pagans was the Northern Crusaderbecause they ran out of pagans to kill? you killed or forcefully converted (under threat of death) literally all of them, and you want a medal for that?
>>17272789>What does that have to do with Turks going around the Balkan kidnapping children?Our definition of slavery of course.Janissaries were called slaves and did the africans on plantation. Yet one was obligated to carry weapon and march into war, while other was prohibited from such duties.Janissaries were never sold to someone else, unlike European soldiers back in XVIIIth century.>And yeah, thats a lot different from letting young men or even teens sign up to a mercenary company.Except they weren't signing up as mercenary voluntarily, but were sold by landgraves as the whole units.
>>17272812>Didnt happenHow didn't it happen? Do you see any remnant of pre-European culture in the Americas?
>>17272813Cool, i too consider christjewry an evil that should be eradicated.
>>17272812>>Pagans in the Americas, Pagans in Asia, Muslims>Didnt happenhow many pagans in the philipines?
>>17272825The difference is that we are right and you are wrong.
>>17272815>going against my commie/pagan policies means going against humanity>and yes that justifies babies being massacredImagine actually thinking a bunch of statues in a cube is worth more than human life and dignity. Good riddance they are gone for they would have attracted demons like you there.>I want land to be emptied out entirely and for a few people as possible to live in the region.We get it you want genocide and to steal the resources of the natives at their expense. I don't see how that is an different than what they are doing.
>>17272815>Zionism is a colonialist resettlement project.Do you really think wealthy middle class from USA and Europe carries much of resettlement?Also, all the jews-arabs massacres carries rather ethnical and utilitarian purpose, not religious or self-defense.
>>17272830black book of communsim isn't a serious source, everyone involved with that book except 1 guy pulled out and asked not to be credited because they didn't want to be attached to such bad work of history. it counts troop casualties as deaths caused by stalin for example, and that's not even the most egregious example that i could say off the top of my head
>>17272830>>going against my commie/pagan policies means going against humanityTrying to conquer and subjugate the en>Imagine actually thinking a bunch of statues in a cube is worth more than human life and dignityFor religious people, symbolic gesture mean a lot, and doing so would show that the Muslims were wiling to end the war against the rest of the human race they've been waging for a good millennium-and-a-half. >We get it you want genocide and to steal the resources of the natives at their expense. I don't see how that is an different than what they are doing.I want to save humanity from its greatest human threat and ensure its safety. Second, no Muslim is a native of anywhere outside of maybe Medina. When you adopt the religion, you give up whatever connection you had to any other land.
>>17272820The Janissaries would show up in a village. They would force the inhabitants to round up their sons like cattle. If somebody refused or tried to hide a child, they would be tortured or killed until they complied. They would then pick the children they liked the most and simply take them. Again if the families or the boys resisted, they would be tortured or killed for it. The boys were clothed in red so they could easily be tracked down if they tried to run away. They were then marched to Anatolia, forcibly converted, circumcised (which hurts) and given to Turkish families. There they were beaten into compliance and forced to speak a foreign language and worship a foreign God. Sometimes they would be sold as sex slaves instead. After their training, they would be "freed", drafted into the Janissaries proper and used as a weapon against their own kin.Meanwhile a German or Swiss youth would join the army and then... fought in a war in exchange for money. Trying to equalize these two things is a really poor attempt to justify Muslim cruelty on your part. I guess it makes sense in your head. >>17272827How many Catholic terrorists in the Philippines? How many Muslim terrorists in the Philippines?
>>17272834>. it counts troop casualties as deaths caused by stalin for exampleAnd so?
>>17272831>Do you really think wealthy middle class from USA and Europe carries much of resettlement?In the USA, yes. In Europe, not sure. Many middle class people in America are evangelicals, and they care a lot about it. I'm sure people wealthier than our Middle class are more interested in it existing in order to help with military power projection in the region. Now to be fair, some of them, like Biden, are ideological believers in the existence of a Jewish state.
>>17272841Also btw the Jews were exempt from the boytax, Suleiman in particular was a shabbos goy.
>>17272841you didn't answer my question, how many pagans are there in the philipines after ~400 years of christian rule? meanwhile there are still zoroastrians in iran
>>17272846did stalin attack germany or was it the other way around? please remind me...
>>17272841>Meanwhile a German or Swiss youth would join the armyBut they weren't joinning. They were forcibly conscripted in German states.>in exchange for money.They didn't recieved any money, their langraves and electors (who were legally renting them to foreigners) were the one who received any money.This is why by Geneva protocol (and military historians) they aren't considered as mercenaries
>>17272858>did stalin attack germany or was it the other way around?Instead of stopping Germany in 1939 Stalin allowed Hitler to occupy the whole Europe, which is drastically increased german combat capabilities against USSRDon't forget about officers purges
>>17272819>because they ran out of pagans to kill? you killed or forcefully converted (under threat of death) literally all of them, and you want a medal for that?Are you mad that they “ran out of pagans to kill” or are you mad because you think those pagans could've been converted to mohammedanism instead? Or mad because they didn't imposed prohibitive, abusive, unequal taxation on paganists, similar to how you want to impose on “infidels” for “their own good”? Or maybe, you're just mad your bullshit doesn't work as intended.How about you be the better one and NOT copy what we've done (as a pathetic pretext excuse to do harm) NOR doing it differently, at all?
>>17272847>In the USA, yes.Care to elaborate?>Many middle class people in America are evangelicals, and they care a lot about it.And you know it by testing them all on polygraph?
>>17272871>Or mad because they didn't imposed prohibitive, abusive, unequal taxation on paganists,
>>17272873>And you know it by testing them all on polygraph?The fundies are certainly more concerned with rebuilding a temple than they are with geopolitics.
>>17272837>Trying to conquer and subjugateHow is that against humanity even if it were true? You do realize the entire goal would be to save humanity right?>symbolic gestures mean a lot more than actual acts of good will like not actually exploding babies to bits in front of other children who will remember the trauma for the rest of their livesIf I could erase all statues off the face of the earth to save a human life I would. I just don't understand how you wouldn't do the same. It's actually disgusting and I hope you're being edgy for the giggles>from its greatest human threatThat would involve you and your other demons walking off the rooftop of a very tall building.>you give up whatever connection you had to any other landLand isn't tied to religion. Nations are tied to blood though and conversion doesn't change your genetics
>>17272871>How about you be the betterAnd they did.There are more christians in muslim countries then pagans in christians countries
>>17272854Apparently two percent of the population still practices indigenous religion(s). https://asiasociety.org/education/religion-philippinesIts not clear what percentage of the Iranian population is still Zoroastrian. Officially its around 25.000 people, not even 1% of the population. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism_in_Iran>>17272862Bro just stop trying to make kidnapping children work, its weird. You could have at least argued that it was technically illegal under Sharia instead of bringing up such an unrelated example.
>>17272876Temple seems more like just a fancy pretext, for utilitarian purposes
>>17272865>stalin killed all those people by NOT starting a waryou really think the author wouldn't count war casualties for a war he sarted as his fault? because that's what he did for every war he did start...
100+ posts of muslims desperately trying to deflect from their failure as a religion, by comparing themselves to the literal worst warcrimes in humanity, not realizing how pathetic they are, if that's their standard.
>>17272884>Bro just stop trying to make kidnapping children work, its weird.Stop projecting yourself and your fragile ego into historical dispute. Jannies were never sold like cattle to foreign countries
>>17272887>you really think the author wouldn't count war casualties for a war he sarted as his fault?1) Probably2) If Stalin actually bothered with preventing the war your claim about including troops casualties into total account would be legit
>>17272879>And they did.They aren't. They want to do it differently, for similar results, but with a generational delay, restrictions, and extortion.>There are more christians in muslim countries then pagans in christians countriesWhere are the Arab polytheists?
>>17272878>How is that against humanity even if it were true? You do realize the entire goal would be to save humanity right?How does violently expanding to subjugate the rest of the species at the behest of your god somehow saving humanity?>If I could erase all statues off the face of the earth to save a human life I would. I just don't understand how you wouldn't do the same. It's actually disgusting and I hope you're being edgy for the gigglesYou're being reductive here. What I'm saying is that there is a group of people who due to their religious beliefs are not capable of caring about humanity in and of itself or seeing genocide as an inherently bad thing. By putting the idols back up and leaving Mecca would show that they are capable of changing their attitude towards their prophet in such a way that it would convince me that they can actually care about those things. You thinking that this is only about statues instead of how a large, violent group of people relate to the world is so absurd that I think you're doing it in bad faith. >Land isn't tied to religion. Nations are tied to blood though and conversion doesn't change your geneticsTo be fair, land isn't really tied to anything other than the violence needed to enforce one's claim of it. The concept of indigenous-ness is inherently ridiculous, but I would go as far as to say that the claims one makes to relate to any piece of land become even more meaningless when they're bowing towards Arabia multiple times a day..
>>17272891>disputeConscripting children is a "dispute"?>Jannies were never sold like cattle to foreign countriesYeah they were just taken to Turkish Anatolia, totally the same thing as Balkan Serbia or Bosnia.>soldThey did it for free.
>>17272885For the rank and file fundies it isn't. You're overestimating just how sophisticated these people are. For the leadership, it's harder to tell.
>>17272907>Where are the Arab polytheists?Sufi dervishes.
>>17272898>2) If Stalin actually bothered with preventing the war your claim about including troops casualties into total account would be legitI don't want to sound sympathetic to Stalin, but didn't he sign the pact the prevent war between Germany and Russia? From what I understand, he genuinely didn't think the Germans would try to attack him while they were still at war with the Brits.
>>17272913>Conscripting children is a "dispute"?Discussing defition of slavery is dispute.>Yeah they were just taken to Turkish Anatolia, totally the same thing as Balkan Serbia or Bosnia.Yeah soldiers sometimes moves around their countries.>They did it for free.So as the Hessian and other german states troops. Rulers were the ones who recieved payment
>>17272920He was building up his own army to swoop over Europe.
>>17272917So nowhere, gotcha. They don't exist anymore because mahomnedans killed them, converted them under the threats of so n' so, jizya, kidnappings of their children etc.
>>17272929>Discussing defition of slavery is dispute.I am not discussing semantics with you, you are just defending Christian children forcefully being taken from their homes to serve as cannon fodder.>Yeah soldiers sometimes moves around their countries.The Ottoman Empire wasnt a "country". >Rulers were the ones who recieved paymentNo shit, they gave the money to the commander instead of every rank and file soldier individually???
>>17272920So we agree that it was Stalin's fault of underestimating the risks of covering Germany's east flank?
>>17272937>So nowhereSufism does exists.
>>17272938>you are just defending Christian childrenAs opposed to any other children? Or you still trying to project your ego into history?>The Ottoman Empire wasnt a "country".Except it was.>No shit, they gave the money to the commander instead of every rank and file soldier individually???>it is noble and pious if my manager gets my salary
>>17272956>As opposed to any other children? Or you still trying to project your ego into history?Still hanging up on semantics, just admit kidnapping and enslaving children is evil. >Except it was.It was an Empire, Anatolia was as foreign to a Serbs as it was before Ottoman tyranny. >>it is noble and pious if my manager gets my salaryuh yeah, the employer gets the money and then pays the employees their salaries or, if they are contractors, their share.Like e.g. Microsoft doesnt steal Indian children to train them as programers in their Gates foundation harem, they just hire Indians who know how to type code.
>>17272911>somehow saving humanityHigher chance of people ending up in eternal bliss? You want people to fall for the deception of Satan and end up fueling the flames of hell forever.>You thinking that this is only about statuesIt is because this useless symbolism to you is more important than innocents being obliterated. You aren't even talking about adults here that might be capable of acting as whatever bogeyman you have in your head. No you are perfectly okay with actual decapitated babies. The reason being they have a minuscule chance of posing a threat to your personal worldview when you grow up. It's so hypocritical to complain about expansion and subjugation when a simple disagreement against your arbitrary views is seen as a threat to humanity and deserves capital punishment. You're despicable and deserve the worst. >land isn't really tied to anything other than the violence needed to enforce one's claim of it.Yes but the concept of nationhood is different from that. It's just a convention that larger nations also have land of their own. Still this doesn't change the fact that you are identical to those monsters in practically everything you have been saying. How then can you act so surprised when you are called out for being one of them?
>>17272946>SufismLet's see.>Sufism is a mystic body of religious practice found within Islam which is characterized by a focus on [mohammedan] purification, spirituality, ritualism, and asceticism.English Wikipedia.>Sufism or Sufism is an [mahommedan] doctrine, but according to the Sufi vision it is not a doctrine, but rather one of the three levels of religion (mahommedanism, faith, ihsan). Arabic Wikipedia, translated to English. >Sufism or Dervishness is a method based on etiquette, to cultivate the soul and leave the world to reach God and achieve the perfection of the soul. Farsi Wikipedia, translated to English.>{{mahommedanic Sufism}} >The word Sufism is adopted for the method or style of practice followed by a Sufi (plural: Sufi). Sufis who are close to mahommedanism, define the word Sufism as follows; Sufismis called self-purification in the qur'anic term and Ihsan in the hadith term. Urdu Wikipedia, translated to English. Again, mahommedanism, nothing to do with Arab polytheism.
>>17272281>you are exempt from participating in warsSo you are disarmed and have to pay for the privilege, so they can keep you in perpetual poverty, and can persecute you at leisure? Thanks Baphomet.
>>17272281Dumb question but were there any cases where a Christian could be exempt from Jizya in retrun from joining the army?
>>17272281But they don't protect you or allow you to practice your religion freely, and you aren't exempt from participating in wars, or from being abused.The Turk, in the same breath as he states these obvious lies, will then turn around and gloat about how they used to enslave Serbian children, convert them to Islam, and then use them as shock troops to fight other Christians.They are very proud of this! I don't know why you would be proud of having to kidnap white children because your own people are so fucking retarded and primitive and untrustworthy and criminalistic that you can't even trust them to collect taxes, but then I'm not a Turk.Anyway the average Arab is now a third generation inbred retard with an IQ in the high 60s, so they're completely fucking done as a race.
>>17272365This is why you don't want to be at the mercy of M*slims.
>>17272999>massacres the men, rapes the women, enslaved the children >turns their holy sites into mosques>destroys their local culture and customs >I am just trying to save your soul, why do you hate me so much?Muslim apologism is truly something else.
>>17273123>some guys do things that are against the religion>still blames the faith for it and not those that aren't respecting its teachingsyou aren't being persecuted btw
>>17273123Yeah, it's not enough that they harm you, they expect you to thank them for the privilege. The act the same way when they commit terror attacks too. >It is because this useless symbolism to you is more important than innocents being obliterated. 'It's not useless symbolism. It's an act that would require them to completely alter their understanding of themselves and their religion's founder in such a way that they would no longer be enemies of humanity. >Yes but the concept of nationhood is different from thatAny concept of nationhood that's meaningful ultimately comes down to that. Everything else is just delusion and LARPing. >How then can you act so surprised when you are called out for being one of them?Because I hate them and want their project completely dismantled.
>>17272281Protection from who?
>>17273195If your theocratic legal system(because unlike other religions, Islam has legal backing for it's religious punishments) doesn't have any tangible, quantifiable punishments for breaking those teachings, and abusing innocents, despite having detailed instructions on how to kill apostates, or wiping your ass if you fart while praying, or other completely minor situations, then that means your god is incompetent, and can't properly design a basic law system with measures against grotesque abuses of power.And in that case, why would the opinions of such a deity have any value?
>>17273989>Islam has legal backing for it's religious punishmentsYes and who is in charge of carrying those things out? The leadership. This is the case with literally every system ever. The beacon of democracy in the middle east never punishes itself, nor does the most free country in the world. What you are asking for here is divine intervention in actuality, because that is the only thing that will stop abuse. Throw your president in jail and the entire power structure surrounding him still remains, the status quo is unchanged. The prophet said that amongst our leaders will be "men who will have the hearts of devils in the bodies of human beings." You think such people will even let those that are willing to betray their authority anywhere near them? Your only real alternative is outright rebellion and that means civil war and even more bloodshed. It is indeed preferable to be strong and heavy-handed than prey to all the enemies surrounding you. It is quite literally a matter of survival. Still this is beside the point because you can't actually blame the faith if people don't want to follow it. Those abuses wouldn't exist in the first place. Your entire argument is that when religious laws are implemented it should be 100% We are told to prevent oppressors from oppressing others, not to follow their orders if it means sin, guide them towards what is good, etc. Those are the best measures anyone can take against abusers of power
>>17272659>As opposed to goths in IberiaStill related population. They left no genetic trace, by the way, so i don't know if that really counts as colonization.>slavs in Balkan?Slavs in Balkan has similar admixture proportions as their neighbors. Even if we agree that they shouldn't be there, it's far cry from MENA mystery meat that came to Iberia.
>>17272500>So just like catholics in protestant countries?Why can't Muslims defend their ideas? I don't know anything about protestants and catholics. Did you want to change the subject? I thought we were talking about Jizyah? Is Islam just a copy of Christianity? Do I need to study Christianity I order to understand the arguments of Islam? Is islam a branch of christianity?
>>17274131>Yes and who is in charge of carrying those things out? A random inbred mob of swarthoids who just happen to take a dislike to you.
This thread is so dumbChristians don't think Islam is trueWhataboutism don't make sense when there is such asymmetry Even if it was true that Christians did the same things, or even did worse things. What does it matter?Christianity is true and good. Islam is made-up and evil.Does not make Christians hypocrites for critiquing jizya.
>>17275676Yeah, I don't get it. Did all the Christian larpers on this board forget they are supposed to act as if they think Christianity is true?
>>17275676>Does not make Christians hypocritesHow does that follow? Of course a christard will think his faleshood is true. Are you seriously arguing for it's le good when we do it?
>>17272672And you think by contrast Jizya is widespread and common?
>>17275676>muslimoids impose tax on conquered christoids>HEEEELP HELP THIS IS UNJUST WE'RE BEING OPPRESSED AIEEEEEEE JESUS SAVE US>Christoids impose total Muslim/pagan death, exile or conversion decrees on conquered Spaniards/northern Euros>uhmmm... that is le whataboutism and even if it did happen it was a good thingI have to either hope or assume the tradcath larpers on this board are actually other faiths falseflagging to make them look bad, because you people are impossible to take seriously.
>>17276550>Christoids impose total Muslim/pagan deathBrownoids actually believe this (they also dindu nuffin, there is even like 20k Zoroastrians left in Iran, so tolerant!)
>>17276544Nah Jihad is the hot thing rn
The more I actually know about Muslims and Islam, the more I like them. The only two bad things I've found yet are 1) ban of living off percents, 2) becoming fundamentalist only in the 20th century.
Jizya is a form of protection money similar to the mafia, since it essentially makes you live under a regime where you can "practice your religion freely" so long as the caliph allows it, and it is typically heavily bias and done so intentionally to make the pressure to convert higher.Islam is shit.
>>17276594>posts religion that historically expelled/exterminated/forced into ghettos/forcibly converted religious minorities
>>17276594>Jizya is a form of protection money similar to the mafiaStill better than what Christians did when they were strong enough - outright exterminating every other religion or sect except for the Jews.
Ignoring the random last part of the question (/pol/ part), at the time the jizya and other toleration acts originated they where very unique and effective. It meant to the Corduba Umayyads that they could keep the highly educated christian and jews that they conquered, or integrate the landed nobility slowly but surely, keep the mostly christian urban trade going, etc.That is a necessity of Islam, because they expanded out of their insular homeland into the post-roman mediterranean, showing their integration into this wider, more complex word, while at the same time trying to keep themselves as rulers.It's no surprise the Ottomans made great use of these policies, they did conquer the seat of Byzantium after all, and had to adapt to the Imperial institutions and position.Long story short, Ottomans stagnated. This tolerance was nowhere near enough compared to secularism and positivism, so it stiffled industry and free-flow of capital. This is why it is hated, its a antiquated practice with no place in the 21th century, despite being a interesting medieval practice that was advantageous on the past.This is NOT a theology question. People made jizya, then justified it on their funny little texts after. This is not a christian and muslim debate.
Why do civilians hate the Italian-American protection tax? I don't get it. You pay a tax to the Italian-American authorities which effectively pays for your protection and allows you to practice your business freely and you are exempt from participating in wars and nobody is allowed to harm you.
Protection from who?
>>17272720>dat picare we at the gaslighting phase where being right and not giving in to manipulating narratives is framed as wrong and pathological?
