You may say "free will" but1. God already makes certain things impossible for us to do in this reality. For example I can't create matter out of thin air. So clearly he has no problem restricting what we can do anyways2. God still allows people to be born with debilitating conditions and illnesses that will restrict their freedom, that they have no control over3. Murder and rape are particularly heinous and actually take away other people's freedom and agency. So if he's all about free will why does he allow evils that take away free will?4. God can presumably create a reality that's a paradise with no murder or rape, that still has free will. Otherwise, what is Eden, and what is Heaven?
https://benthams.substack.com/p/why-theres-evil>There might be various unknown reasons. Perhaps putting us in a universe like this is valuable because it is required for various hard-to-guess afterlife goods. Perhaps there’s some consequential decision that we’ll make in 5 quadrillion years that God knows will be positively shaped by us being in an indifferent universe. Given that we only witness 70 years of our lives or so, we’re not in a position to guess whether there are such great afterlife goods. This theodicy also avoids the problems with skeptical theism, because it only requires positing an unknown reason for one thing—making an indifferent universe. But surely thinking that God has some unknown reasons to do one particular act doesn’t produce global skepticism or any of the other untenable results of skeptical theism—we already know that we’re wrong sometimes! >Perhaps being in an indifferent world, one whose features resemble the typical godless world that contains us and where we can know about the broad features of the world, strengthens our relationship with God. To consider an analogy: your relationship with your eventual spouse might be strengthened by the fact that you spent time without them. Having time without someone might strengthen your relationship with them. Similarly, time spent in a world apart from God might strengthen one’s eventual relationship with God, a relationship that is of infinite value.>Perhaps struggling through an indifferent world, not being micromanaged by God, is uniquely valuable for soul-building. Just going through a narrowly tailored set of challenges doesn’t give one the knowledge that they can overcome hardships in the same way that overcoming a random suite of challenges does. The benefits of soul-building, as of the other benefits on this list, last forever.
>>17279149A bunch of horrible arguments all around, lmao>Perhaps putting us in a universe like this is valuable because it is required for various hard-to-guess afterlife goods. God has the power to create reality. He is the one who makes the rules. If he was truly all powerful he could simply change the rules so this wouldn't be necessary. Besides, it makes very little sense - our time in this reality is very short (for most, 80 years max) compared to what is eternity in the afterlifeSecondly he can still create a world with no murder and rape, that still follows this principle. Unless you are admitting that he NEEDS murder and rape to exist?>Perhaps there’s some consequential decision that we’ll make in 5 quadrillion years I'm not just talking about an "indifferent universe" though, I'm talking about murder and rape. If you use this argument, you basically admit that all murder and all rape is morally justified for the greater good, which is absurd, there would be zero incentive for anyone to not commit evil because they can always rationalize it as "it's part of God's plan for the greater good anyways">Perhaps being in an indifferent world, one whose features resemble the typical godless world that contains us and where we can know about the broad features of the world, strengthens our relationship with God.No? God allowing murder and rape to exist everywhere only makes people doubt him. Hence, why this thread was even made. Secondly, if you try to genuinely argue that God's motives are unknowable or that God is incomprehensible that only furthers doubt in him - if he is truly incomprehensible, how do we even know he's good, trustworthy, or cares about humanity? That's what "incomprehensible" actually means>Perhaps struggling through an indifferent world, not being micromanaged by God, is uniquely valuableWe don't have to be micro-managed by God. Just create a reality where rape and murder are impossible.
>>17279178>Just going through a narrowly tailored set of challenges doesn’t give one the knowledge that they can overcome hardships in the same way that overcoming a random suite of challenges doesI'm not talking about "hardships". I'm talking about heinous evils like murder and rape. This is a very dishonest argument Christians use, if someone had their child murdered would you tell them "don't worry, God did this so you can overcome hardships". My rebuttal would be, "why the fuck did God need my child murdered to do this, he can teach this to me without getting people killed, he's God and supposed to be able to do anything"
>>17279149"Soul-building" is a pretty lousy explanation because on the one hand some people die as children so it's evident their souls aren't being improved, on the contrary they're being denied the opportunities to develop character that they would have if they lived. And at the other extreme, there are people who live rather cushy, unchallenging lives, so apparently they're being denied the essential soul-building experiences that are the whole point of life, so how is that fair to them?
>muh murder and rapeWhy do atheist midwits focus on such highly specific details, instead of asking the main question:>Why did God subject us humans to a universe with entropy?That would at least lead to useful argumentation.
>>17279359>And at the other extreme, there are people who live rather cushy, unchallenging livesThey will get older and experience suffering too.
>>17279137The world is uncaring, which means we must fight for good.
>>17279137The bible says it. I have it highlighted but I can't remember the verse and can't be bothered.Essentially it happens for one of three reasons:If you're an unbeliever, to punish youIf you're a fence-sitter, to get you off the fenceIf you're a believer, so you can be an example to the world of God's glory by not letting these things get to you, not letting them break your faith.There was this one shooting I remember. A guy had his daughter die I believe. He was upset at God. Went to an Amish church, executed some kids, then killed himself. The Amish community forgave him, and raised money for the man's parents to help them through their grief. That's an example of Christian living, of being an example to others. Breaking the cycle of violence. That's why bad things happen to Christians, so we can make good come from it.
>>17279137Basically the problem of evil exists because there is free will and as a result people choose to incite evil. However, God still has every soul in his hand at the end of the day, and he is able to amply reward every person who believes His word and accepts His Son.The problem of evil exists for the time being only because God won't force people to accept Him or to worship, nobody will be forced to be in heaven. Rather, it will all be by choice. And those who are saved will finally be free from evil for all of eternity, after God ends this fallen world and reigns. After the millenial reign, the Bible also reveals that there will be no more evil for God's people, and evil will be forever cast out into outer darkness. That's basically the answer to the problem of evil in a nutshell.
>>17279916ok so he allows that.
>>17279398Because murder and rape are particularly heinous evils that virtually everyone agrees there should be left of and you can't dodge around that by saying "oh muh soul building" or reframe it as "if there were no suffering no one would grow/everything would be boring"
>>17279783So then what about children? Why does he allow these things to happen to children who don't understand religion in the same way as we do
>>17279137I'm gonna give you a big brain moment for youThe act of killing is forbiding, but death and touching/penetration is NOT MECHANICALLY FORBIDEN.They are not loaded concepts, just mere mechanical movements, missused free will created murder and rape.
>>17280210There are millions of ways God could make it impossible to murder. He could make it so you can think of murder but every time you think of seriously carrying it out you feel very sick and uncomfortable and can't do it. Or he can create a world, where no one would ever want to murder in the first placeHe's God. He can do anything. Creating a world where rape and murder are impossible should be trivial for him
>>17280217bro even god creat war in their bible but i don't know why this christcuk nigger always say god is good good what the fuck this nigger brain say.
>>17279137If you take a step back and think of God as the best possible being, it actually becomes obvious pretty quick why he would need to have relatively limited direct action.The best possible being would want to increase goodness in the world, and would be omnipotent.So it couldn't simply go at its goal with its maximum power, since that would pose a logical contradiction: that would be adding ∞ goodness to the world. (Perhaps making the population ∞ happy people, for illustration)But actual infinities like that are self-contradictions. So that's not a logically possible option.What's the next best thing to an actual infinity? A potential infinity. So the best possible being would ensure the quantity of goodness was that. That's why time exists: goodness needs to be something always increasing.The best possible being would do precise what's needed to ensure that, but no more, otherwise it comes to "how much more?" and we run into the same issue again.So when something threatens the growth of goodness in the world as a whole, then the best possible being would act to ensure its value is always a potential infinity. But otherwise it would need to refrain from directly improving the world to avoid infinite regressions.
>>17280228he creat the fucking war in the fucking bilbe. You nigger stop using science in bilbe. If it has science it will explain in that book.
>>17280230Which war are you referring to, specifically? The purpose of war is destruction and sometimes evil needs to be destroyed. Especially in such fragile states of the world as Biblical times. Remember that God instructed the Israelites to go to Canaan specifically because of the evil of ifs inhabitants. What would those cultures at the crossroads of the world eventually become? Suppose they were going to turn into the equivalent of Mongols, bringing immense destruction on the ancient world - wouldn't the wars there be good if that was going to happen down the line?
>>17280235nigger it means god creat mongol do that too you nigger dumb. So he is evil too. Stop using your fucking illusion to cope with the fucking fact in the fucking bilbe.
>>17279137>If God is all-good and all powerful, why does he allow murder and rape to exist?So that He could forgive murderers and rapists, as well as those who commit these acts could be forgiven by their victims and there could be reconciliation.
>>17279137>If God is all-good and all powerful, why does he allow murder and rape to exist?He gave us the sword we need to protect the kingdom established by the son but it has not been wielded as law for hundreds of years.
>>17279137god is like a dead beat dad that boast about knocking the bitch up but runs off before birth then blames single moms for fucking up the kid
>>17280236The Bible directly contradicts God causing the evil to do their wickedness. Look at Jeremiah 19:5 for instance: "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind".
