Does the existence of Hell disprove the all-loving and merciful God?Think about it, Hell is a place where there's a lack of Good and you are abandoned by God for all eternity disproving two attributes of God that being omnipresent and all good. People all over the world have horrible thoughts and dreams about Hell and suffer daily from thinking about it.
Heaven and Hell aren't afterlifes, they're real places in the here and now. You make Hell or you make Heaven. This website, among many other rightwing fascist social darwinist websites, is Hell.
>>17279914It's Sheol in Judaism and Hades im the New Testament, and the lake of fire.
>>17279912There's theology as far back as Origen of Alexandria which believes that, in the grand scheme, God will recompense all evil and save all beings, even demons. Damnation is the temporal result of evil, but eventually all will be restored. Of course even in the Eternal Conscious Torment model, Hell is "locked from the inside." Hell only exists because God is all-loving and within that love is freedom to reject truth and goodness. God is present everywhere in created space; Hell is where God is minimally present for the deceased who choose maximum solitude from the Kingdom of God.
>>17279912>Does the existence of Hell disprove the all-loving and merciful God?God is all-good. There is a difference between being all-good (omnibenevolent) and all-loving, because being all-loving, in the sense you seem to be using it here, means condoning every evil and sin. That would mean no longer being all-good.>and you are abandoned by God for all eternity disproving two attributes of God that being omnipresentThe Bible never contradicts God's omnipresence though."Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."- Psalm 139:7-10>and all good.Yes, God is all-good.Overall, your post represents some really low level misunderstandings and conflations of contradictory concepts, OP anon.
>>17279931>evil and sinWhy are these here in the first place? Wouldn't an all-good God create options where there is a good and a lesser good but never a choice of lack of good in entirely?
>>17279937>Why are these here in the first place?Because of the actions of fallible creatures, basically.>Wouldn't an all-good God create options where there is a good and a lesser good but never a choice of lack of good in entirely?The point of all of this, and of the problem of evil, is that individuals with free will need to be given the choice whether or not to worship and glorify God. Those who choose not to, will sooner or later be cast into outer darkness. There they will face the outcome of their choice. But that choice to rebel against the Creator, would still be their own choice and attributable to them if it does happen. Those who remain to worship the Creator will have done so willingly, and it is these who will remain in God's favor for eternity, finally freed and enjoying their eternal life with God, no longer beset from the influence of any evil, pain and so on. Thus it will be for eternity, according to the Bible. I also believe God is all-good for allowing this.
>>17279944So he wants people to suffer by giving them horrible choices, got it.
>>17279944>The point of all of this, and of the problem of evil, is that individuals with free will need to be given the choice whether or not to worship and glorify God. Those who choose not to, will sooner or later be cast into outer darkness. There they will face the outcome of their choice. But that choice to rebel against the Creator, would still be their own choice and attributable to them if it does happen. Those who remain to worship the Creator will have done so willingly, and it is these who will remain in God's favor for eternity, finally freed and enjoying their eternal life with God, no longer beset from the influence of any evil, pain and so on. Thus it will be for eternity, according to the Bible. I also believe God is all-good for allowing this.what a nigger subhuman christard if someone who don't harm anything don't kill anything help people but don't belive in god. They go to hell forever right? so you claim is wrong.
>>17279944if you god is all-good your nigger god should say that for all people to choose not bilbe but your god can appear to say that. If they don't your nigger god can have the fucking right to punishment them not some shit bilbe with shithole literacy can convert them because some religion have more moral and doctrine that is very good too.
>>17279956>They go to hell forever right?The problem according to the Bible is that everyone has sinned. The only exception is Jesus Christ, since He is the Son of God, and God manifest in the flesh."For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"- Romans 3:23"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."- James 2:10
>>17279962>"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."see your theology is like cult not justice. Bro your god is fake bro. some religion has better moral justice system.
>>17279944I've always thought of it in a dialectical sense (although more Girardian than Hegelian/Marxian). That is, the Book of Genesis and other Abrahamic myth are allegories for an unfolding relationship between God, the heart/ground of existence and humanity, those in Divine image/likeness. The Garden of Eden is a particularly distilled example. Tempted by the Serpent, Adam/Eve had the simultaneous desires to obey God and to be like God. Humanity chose the latter and reaped the consequences. However, Christ, who is Alpha and Omega, is both Man and God whose incarnate obedience established a means by which people's humanity wouldn't bar them from Divinity. There's a theory of atonement that predates the Great Schism by centuries, that the life of Mary and Jesus are recapitulations on the faults of Eve and Adam respectively. Adam brought thorns to humanity's feet; Christ wore a crown of thorns. Eve brought the pain of childbirth to humanity; Mary endured the even greater agony of her child being killed.
>>17279969You can really only find substitutionary atonement in the Bible itself. You have to go to manmade sources to find these other theories. Coincidentally, these are also the people who premise what they say on, and encourage you to think that, everything is relative or that it's all up to interpretation. From there, they would have you think everyone's interpretation is equal, that there can be many standpoints and that none of them is or can be better than another, or perhaps the most popular one is the best. Fortunately however truth doesn't actually work that way. I'm also glad that we don't design our airplanes via any of those other methods of thinking about truth either, anon."Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."- 2 Peter 1:20
>>17280008Atonement models aren't mutually exclusive. Christ's Passion can be a recapitulation, a moral example, a victory over death, a substitution, and more without contradicting truth because an act can have more than one intent and more than one effect.
>God this and such because this best selling novella I have hereTell us about the powers of the Force, m8, how real are they?>Muh philosophy I didnt say there's no God.I said you believe something very real as a good is being conflated, right fucking here with LOTR grade shit.For reference, do you get your information on deep computing from ancient taiwanese ideas of mythmaking?
>>17279912>wages of sinDeath>reward for faithEternal life>God is omnipresent>thus for God not be present the place or object must not existtherefore we can conclude that there is nothing after death for sinners and non-believers as eternal life is solely the reward for faith. God is not present because you no longer exist anymore.
>>17280128chriscuck is dumb as fuck. Your christian creat hell theory and now you say you are death so you never meet anything?
>>17280132>Your christian creat hell theory and now you say you are death so you never meet anything?What makes you think that, anon?"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched."- Mark 9:43-44
>>17279912God isn't "all-loving" or "all-merciful", because God hates those who he rejects and those who die without their faith in Christ to save them from the just punishment they deserve for their sins. Those who blasphemed the Holy Ghost were beyond his mercy, beyond hope of salvation.God also clearly hates the wicked.>Psalms 11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.Stop getting your theology from hellivision cartoons and worldly smooth preachers. I bet you think fornication and adultery are normal because you've been shown sodomites and transvestites and compromise in the middle. You also have a worldly definition of good, clearly. I bet you even think you're a good person when Jesus plainly said there's none good but God.>>17280128Those in hell are classified as "dead".>Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.And they're tormented, day and night, for ever and ever. And have NO REST day nor night.>Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.>Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.And the lake of fire is call the "second death" in Revelation.>Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.>Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.The haters of God wish afterlife was nothingness, that's even what they preach in their sci-fi religion.
>>17279912>>17280137God isn't "all-loving":>Hosea 9:15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters."I will love them no more"God isn't "all-merciful":>Hosea 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away."I will no more have mercy">Romans 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.>Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy"God IS a consuming fire.>Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.>Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.You'd better seek ye the Lord WHILE HE MAY BE FOUND, because his spirit will not always strive with man and one day may be the day you cross the line and you become a Romans 1 or Hebrews 6 kind of guy, where you become reprobate and rejected by God because you didn't even like to retain God in your knowledge and hated God and rejected the gospel one too many times.These people who are trusting in a "death bed conversion" are fools and I guarantee you they'll become reprobates long before their death bed and their destruction will suddenly come upon them. Salvation is simple. It's by believing, John 3:16, all you have to do is believe the gospel and be saved from what you deserve for sinning.But when you're rejected, when your heart is hardened by God, you can not believe.John 12:39-40Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
>>17279912Hell is, as i understanding, the voluntary eternal separation from God, product of an incompatibility developed while on your mortal life.
>>17279912Both Hell and Heaven disprove God>HellMeans that God is willing to torture people for eternity (literally trillions upon trillions of years) for bad things they did within their relatively short life span as mortals. This makes God needlessly vindictive and cruel. Even modern society agrees that you can punish criminals in cruel and unusual ways and that the most important thing is to separate criminals from non-criminals, not to make the criminals suffer>HeavenProves that God is capable of creating a perfect world, that also has free will. This means God has no excuse for allowing evil to exist in our world, since he can easily make a reality where we have free will and there is no evil. This also introduces the question of why didn't God just make everything perfect from the beginning if he can do this, why even go on with this charade that is modern reality?Alternatively if you argue that Heaven doesn't have free will, then free will isn't valuable because we spend such a short amount of time with free will compared to a literal eternity without free will.
>>17280232>Both Hell and Heaven disprove GodNo it doesn't. It just tells us that God is a whimsical and vindictive evil being who doesn't see anything wrong in making souls suffer from eternal infinite torment if he deems it so. God just sees mortals as his playthings.It just makes me submit to God stronger. The stakes are too high. I'd submit to the will of sadistic serial killer were I at his mercy just to avoid torture and death. And those stakes are nothing compared to the risk of eternal torment. Praise Lord, I'm his most ardent servant.
>>17279912How would anyone know that being in that place is painful, if god hasn't been there himself? Did he put someone in there as a test? How did the test subject return if god couldn't go there to get him back?
>>17279931You know how much evil shit God did in the Bible. Everything he did was evil, I can't name one good thing he did.
>>17279912Reminder that Christians believed that God tortured children until at least the 1800s and didn’t think there was any problem with this
>>17279912fire pit of torture and happy cloud land are not places you go when you dieheaven and hell are places on the earth defined relative to the kingdom established by the Son
>>17280303In the Bible, God is the source of all good and created all things in perfect order, and will also return them to perfect order once this finite world is over. The entrance of evil (both moral and natural evil) into the world has to do with sin or rebellion against God. That's the point."God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;"- Acts 17:24-25
>>17280307Try posting something from the Bible next time.
>>17279912Hell doesn't exist
>>17280869>Hell doesn't existAccording to the Bible, it exists."Stolen waters are sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell."- Proverbs 9:17-18"The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow."- Psalm 116:3
>>17280864Left looks like a dick. Right looks like a cunt. Imma turn around and let them do coitus.
>>17280890"Sheol", the word used in the two verses you quote, does not appear to mean "Hell", to wit, magic lava land where you experience everlasting conscious torture.The same word is used in Ecclesiastes 9:10, where something very different is in view from the context.
>>17281199lust is a sin and it's starting to make you see things, repent
>>17281480>magic lava land where you experience everlasting conscious torture.I don't see what the term "magic" has to do with any of this.The two verses I just quoted actually do prove that hell in the Old Testament is a place of torment in the depths where the dead exist. You would actually have to read the verses to see that, which I take it you didn't do, at least not yet.>The same word is used in Ecclesiastes 9:10It's true as well. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."I do not see where this verse says there is no torment there. See also the following verse:"And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."- Isaiah 66:24Looking at that verse right there, it again awfully sounds familiar to what Jesus taught about what happens to these people. The fire is eternal and never quenched, and the worm never dies, since they are just in constant agony all the time. It's just like the New Testament.I can quote from the New Testament too if we want. In fact, I think already did do so before here: >>17280134
>>17281517What are you talking about? Dick is a man's name. Cunt is a stupid person. I'm surprised you even know what "coitus" means. Perv.
>>17281826>You would actually have to read the verses to see that, which I take it you didn't do, at least not yetThe Psalm is a poor fit for your notion of Hell. Its subject is thanksgiving for passing of illness. The "trouble and sorrow" pertain to the illness. Death doesn't have to entail torture to be sorrowful Cf. Ecclesiastes:>For whoever is joined with all the living, there is hope; surely a live dog is better than a dead lionThe proverb's meaning is plain; you have begun your quote in the middle of a sentence. The subject is folly;>And to those without sense she says, “Stolen water is sweet, and bread eaten in secret is pleasant.” But they do not know that the dead are there, that her guests are in the depths of Sheol.The ultimate reward of folly is death. "Sheol" may refer to a sort of underworld of diminished existence, like the Greek Hades, but its plain meaning is "grave". Cf. 10:2If YOU read the Psalm, you will not find anything about being spared torment on account or righteousness or faith in Jesus, as your ilk believes of Hell. The Psalmist doesn't speak on how he was scared shitless and turned righteous or something.>I do not see where this verse says there is no torment thereYou should read the rest of Ecclesiastes. That you would even write this indicates you're ignorant of what the Tanakh has to say about the afterlife.>See also the following verseMy point is on the meaning of "Sheol" in your own quotes, compared to the Christian doctrine of Hell. Trito-Isaiah is a much younger work, a witness to the dualistic afterlife that had begun to develop. This goes double for the New Testament, which quotes 1 Enoch, wherein heaven and hell are laid out in detail for the first time in the Jewish context, that we know of. Pearls before swine and all, but the prior verse is striking in that it appears to be opposite 66:24, or to preclude it. A point worthy of meditation if you ever develop to the level of textual criticism.
>>17281920>"Sheol" may refer to a sort of underworld of diminished existence, like the Greek Hades, but its plain meaning is "grave". Cf. 10:2I agree. And in the New Testament, Jesus Christ said that the word "Hades" also really refers to our conception of hell. See Luke 16:23.>If YOU read the Psalm, you will not find anything about being spared tormentIt says, "the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow." I don't know how much more clear it can be than that. Of course, I gave other examples as well, but this one is poignant.>You should read the rest of Ecclesiastes.I haven't found a place in Ecclesiastes where the concept of hell is denied. It's true that there is no knowledge or device in the grave. Just like what it says in Psalm 6:5, "For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?"But that doesn't mean there isn't torment there. There most assuredly is, especially according to Psalm 116:3. You can try to dance around the subject all you want and pretend it's not there, but that verse explicitly says what I'm trying to say. That's where I'm getting this.>Trito-Isaiah is a much younger work,Anon, you can play word games however you like, Isaiah chapter 66 is part of the Old Testament regardless of what you say, just like the rest of the law, prophets, and writings.>Pearls before swine and all, but the prior verse is striking in that it appears to be opposite 66:24, or to preclude it.Is "the prior verse" meant to refer to the book of Enoch? That isn't really relevant to anything since that book isn't inspired by the God of the Bible. IOW, it is apocrypha, so obviously from a Biblical standpoint it can simply be wrong. Hopefully that makes sense, anon.
