Who were the Gutians? We practically don't know about them, even their language. we pretty much know they were a Mesopotamian people who came from the "east" with an established kingdom and that's it.but what was their identity? some say they were Kurds and others that they were an Indo-European people, although etymological arguments have failed miserably
>>17409383I don't believe they were Indo-European. but perhaps they had some influence? this article says they had an Indo-European deityhttps://www.academia.edu/10344521/An_Indo_European_god_in_a_Gudea_Inscription
>>17409453100% unlikely. They had Mesopotamian religion
>>17409459I don't believe they were Indo-European. I just argued that maybe they could have some influence....from the article:"the bilingual Gudea inscription CUSAS 17 22 transcribed by C. Wilcke (2011) mentions the god Indar (Indáar). This god (written Indar) was recorded in the Peace Treaty between the Kings Suppiluliuma of Hatti and Mattiuaza of Mitanni, among other deities including Mitraš, Uruwanaš and Našatiana (Luckenbill 1921: 170) the Vedics Indra (the god of strength and war), Mitra, Varuna and the Nasatyas. Thus it became clear that, in the second half of the second millennium BC, there were Indo Iranian communities dwelling in Mitanni."We know that the IEs penetrated in theLevantine and southern Anatolian areas like the Mitanni, so it was not impossible
>>17409479Gutians were EBA, not LBA like the Indo-Aryans. it is anachronistically false that this occurred. indra was invented much later, and they still say that indra is actually BMAC with that soma-hoama shit
>>17409383They were Goths, obviously.
>>17409499Shut up
>>17409383Were just some random Mesopotamian tribe
>>17409502Shut up greasy
>>17409479In the Zagros area, there were non-IE speakers, non-Semitic speakers too, such as Gutians, Hurrians, Kassites, etc. The Elamites, likewise, did not speak a Semitic or IE language.These names don't sound Indo-European.>Inkišuš>Zarlagab>Šulme (or Yarlagaš)>Silulumeš (or Silulu)>Inimabakeš (or Duga)>Igešauš (or Ilu-An)>Yarlagab>Ibate>Yarla (or Yarlangab)>Kurum>Apilkin>Lā-erabum>Irarum>Ibranum>Hablum>Puzur-Suen>Yarlaganda>TiriganTell me, do some of these look Indo-European? difficultly.
>>17409494>Gutians were EBAYes? Indo-European migrations date back to at least 3000 in locations adjacent to Anatolia, and there is a theory that the Hittites migrated beyond Anatolia for example. so even considering this, it is not impossible that some group or whatever came into contact with them.>not LBA like the Indo-Aryans. Yes, I didn't say they were Indo-Aryans or a specific group IE. free interpretation... although the Mitanni had no direct relationship with the Vedas (at least migratory) and their gods were very similar. >it is anachronistically false that this occurred. Indra was invented much laternot necessarily. indra is older than that, we have probable cognates with indra in Greece, Anatolia (proto-Hitts) and even among the Celts. is a standard Indo-European deity.>and they still say that Indra is actually BMAC with that soma-hoama shitthis argument is not established or a consensus, generally Iranian nationalists use this argument, but there is no very concrete evidence other than syncretism that indra is bmac/IVC.>>17409533Ok? I never said my language was IE. just that they could have been influenced, in this case, religiously.Kassites also worshiped indra
>>17409533>Irarum>Ibranum>KurumLooks like Indo-European to me
>>17409453>>17409459>>17409479>>17409494Mesopotamian religion is 100% PIE in origin. All the most important religions are. ANE related groups literally dominated and still dominate this planet. My post has nothing to do with nordicistshit narrative. As I don't consider Nordic pigs to be even human.
>>17409576Fuck off
>>17409383Were definitely non-aryan
>>17409582Cope harder you illiterate subhuman. There is a clear cut connection between PIE religion and Sumerian one.
>>17409383well, they beat the Akadians. They have my respect.but what the Semitigods say about them, they fit into a people similar to the IEs because they are barbaric and sub-human. their bad reputation as nomadic barbarians, killing innocent people and wantonly destroying cities. It's not very different from what some Romans and Greeks said about their northern cousins. but some Assyrians said that the Gutians were actually Medians.>>17409596Schizo >muh ANE mythology
Again, we don't know anything. 0% (zero) on them.why create theories with loose and extremely weak parts, retarded?Who they were, and where precisely they came from, is unknown. All ancient accounts say that they came from the "Zagros Mountains", ÷ and that they were Elamites. but these reports do not seem to refer to the same people.
>>17409630Maybe because that's how the methodology works? retarded
>>17409654I accept your defeat >The geographical name Gutium, and the indication of people as Gutians, is attested in the Mesopotamian record from mid-third to the late first millennium BCE. It is highly improbable that the name Gutians always referred to the same group of people and Gutium to the same region. Evidence from the second and first millennia mostly suggests an eastern location from a Mesopotamian point of view, but we cannot say that this was true earlier when the Gutians were most important in Mesopotamian history. (Gutians, 1)
>>17409553>not necessarily. indra is older than that, we have probable cognates with indra in Greece, Anatolia (proto-Hitts) and even among the Celts. is a standard Indo-European deity.Sources?
>>17409817"Indra / Indar was an IndoEuropean deity also worshiped in Anatolia by the protoHittites (as Inar) 1) in the early second millennium (Hrozný 1953: 146) and by the Kassites a few centuries later (KaraIndaš) 2) He was also recorded in the Greek word aner / andros (ἀνήρ / ἀνδρός) "man", is related to the Avestan daemon Indra and among the Celts was the goddess of war Andarta / Andrasta (Kazanas 2001: 11). The name Indar was not registered in any other document from Mesopotamia. For this reason Wilcke and Gabbay (2012) observed that the name was, perhaps, an “unorthographic” variation of “Nindara”, a god recorded in other texts from Lagash"
>>17409553>this argument is not established or a consensusIt actually is. There's a clear BMAC stratum for high culture and technology in all Indo-Iranian languages.
They seem to be related to Indo-Europeans. While the language doesn't seem Indo-European. I believe they came from the Caucasus. There's actually a steppe heavy sample from Northwest Iran dated to the time of Gutians.
>>17410013>For this reason Wilcke and>Gabbay (2012) observed that the name was, perhaps, an “unorthographic” variation of “Nindara”, a god>recorded in other texts from Lagash"That makes zero sense as Nindara is older than Sintashta culture itself. Let alone Indo-Aryans in the Middle East.
>>17410013Also, according to German wiki (not much about it in English one):>Inar is a Hittite land goddess of Hattian origin, [ 1 ] who is associated with nature, the countryside and wild animals. [ 2 ] She is the city goddess of Ḫattuša . [ 3 ]Hattians weren't Indo-Europeans.
>>17410038no, it's not.indra is not bmac. is Indo-Europeanthe fact that it has syncretism doesn't change that, and a lot of the bmac stuff is highly exaggerated
>>17410198Nope. There are hundreds of words of non-IE origin in early Indo-Iranian languages while the possible proto Indo-Iranians were being acculturated by BMAC civilization. Not to mention cultural practices and technological transfers associated with the BMAC.
>>17410208the OP is not talking about Indo-Iranians.>Nope. yes.>There are hundreds of words of non-IE origin in early Indo-Iranian not many more words than other IE languages. in fact, Proto-Indo-Iranian and its branches, as indicated, are one of the most conserved. along with Germanic and other languages. >languages while the possible proto Indo-Iranians were being acculturated by BMAC civilization. it's not true. The existence of non-IE words is common in all IE languages, it would be a surprise if none existed. >Not to mention cultural practices the same as above, although you haven't mentioned anything so far. in any case, the opposite occurred more frequently. "bmac" elements (it's a vague term. what do you mean by that? oxus? IVC?) are generally not very present.>and technological transfersfor example?
>>17410132Indra is present in other languages and is not just Indo-Aryan. otherwise, you must assume that syntashta influenced the Aegean and even central Europe.
This part of this article is very interestingbut with the lack of gutian samples, it is difficult to say anything.
>>17410254>lackperhaps. but what about those samples with steppe in the vicinity of the region? without being very strange. they could be Gutians.
>>17410261Sorry, I'm not aware of these samples.
>>17410228>not many more words than other IE languagesMost of the nouns in Indo-Iranian are non-IE unlike more primitive Balto-Slavic.>Proto-Indo-Iranian and its branches, as indicated, are one of the most conserved.Not really. Perhaps in terms of grammar, since European languages became grammatically influenced by non-IE.>along with GermanicGermanic is one of the least conservative branches, idiot.>The existence of non-IE words is common in all IE languagesFar more words in Indo-Iranian languages are non-IE. Particularly for nouns.>the same as aboveNope. BMAC cultural practices such as fire veneration and bull fighting outright replaced IE elements, it wasn't really syncretism. Among Iranian peoples the BMAC religion overtook IE practices. None of these things happened among the Celts or Slavs.>although you haven't mentioned anything so farI named a few of the elements above.>"bmac" elements (it's a vague term.It really isn't if you have a brain.>for example?Irrigation, bricks, construction, palaces, streets, government, etc. According to the steppe hypothesis, the proto Indo-Iranians learned everything about technology from the BMAC and ended up adopting much of their culture and religion. Again, that didn't happen elsewhere.
>>17410272Hajji_Firuz_ChL I2327 of Narasimhan et al. 2018
>>174102741/2>Most of the nouns in Indo-Iranian are non-IE unlike more primitive Balto-Slavic.that's not true. I showed a comparison chart.>Not really. Yes. is one of the most conservative.>Germanic is one of the least conservativbranches, idiot.I see this offends you, why use insults? But again, you are wrong and I need your sources. In any case, that study or theories of Germanic substrati are not considered accurate.>Far more words in Indo-Iranian languages are non-IE. Particularly for nouns.again, show me a "pure" language. there isn't. however, there are the most conservative ones. as is the case with Germanic and Proto-Indo-Iranian.>cultural practices such as fire venerationIt is not of bmac origin, we have evidence that the Proto-Indo-Iranians held this belief system.>bullfighting Is it really a weak argument, because you compare pastoralist people with settlers and argue that the latter had a culture centered on field animals? In any case, "bullfights" can appear anywhere where there is frequent contact with livestock. mainly pastors.>Among Iranian peoples the BMAC religion overtook IE practices. you just mentioned fire, which again, already existed among the Proto-Indo-Iranian peoples. and the deities, as well as their names and functions, are mostly IEs with some exceptions. which is natural.
>>17410590>>174102742/2>IrrigationProto-Indo-Iranian peoples have practiced some agriculture on a significant scale since. >bricks>constructionwe have Proto-Indo-Iranian brick settlements. this was already known. The same around europe.>palacesan idiotic argument, as they were pastoralists and not settlers, and their settlers were not large enough to have royal palaces. It's a question of utility. >streetsStreets are not necessarily linked to civilization. the Celts and Germanics had streets, as did the Proto-Indo-Iranians. >governmentgovernment? Again, as vague a term as "bmac". city-states? possibly not. but organized political structures with stratification and commercial? definitely. >etc. lol>According to the steppe hypothesis, the proto Indo-Iranians learned everything about technology the hypothesis does not state this. and you have so far not shown a single source or a consistent argument other than >streets>from the BMAC and ended up adopting much of their culture and religion.which is not true.
>>17410590>>17410592There is nothing vague about BMAC, Bactria–Margiana Archaeological Complex, retarded cunt. Sintashta/PII was not unidirectional, and it's generally agreed many elements for Iranic culture stem from BMAC.
>>17409589But they said to have blonde and blue eye?
>>17412780Sumerians described them as dumb ugly monkeys
>>17410242I don't know why you think your article is the one that's correct. Seems like most linguists disagree with this. The Indar and Nindara is especially weird as Indar was a female goddess of non-Hittite origin.
>>17412852Also, the article seems to be written by a guy who is an independent researcher, isn't a linguists and it's the only thing about linguistics that he ever wrote. Naturally it's not published in any peer-reviewed journal.
>>17412223Damn worm leftover from failed abortion, I refuted you and your vague claimsbmac IS NOT AN ETHNILINGUISTIC GROUP. simple. it is a phenomenon. bmac can be oxus, for example.
>>17412852It's a consistent etymology, though.
>>17413073Yes. This idiot believes I said they were Indo-Aryan, although this etymology, and some of the attributes of this deity, may retain a more general Indo-European syncretism.
>>17410592Furthermore, the Proto-Indo-Iranians literally had tin and some metallurgical practices that the "Bmac" did not have.
>>17413071Not the same guy. You are a pseud and should kys. There are tons of research articles on archaeological sites in BMAC and reconstructions of their culture.
>>17409499The Gutians were the ancient predecessors of the Massagetae (mostly in name and lifestyle),- whom in turn were the more or less direct scythian predecessors/contemporaries of both the western and eastern Goths.Siddharta Gautama being an eastern geatish prince.
>>17409383Gutians were probably just CHG invaders from the Caucasus speaking a Hurro-Urartian language, the language of the people that the Mittani (who were Indo-Iranian invaders) ruled over as elites. Same goes for the Kassites.>The Armenoid race type exists to the west and north of the Arabid race, and encompasses the modern Armenians, Assyrians, Maronites, Greeks, Turks, Kurds, Georgians, Iranians, Israelis, Syrians, Druze, Yazidis, Shabaks, Mandeans and Mhallami, together with the ancient ancestors and/or predecessors of these peoples, such as the Assyrians, Akkadians, Babylonians, Chaldeans, Eblaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Kassites, Gutians, Hittites, Hattians, Hurrians, Phrygians, Lydians, Phoenicians, Carthaginians, Medes, Persians, Scythians, Israelites, Samaritans, Judeans, Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, Philistines, Cilicians, Cappadocians and Minoans among othersThe dark haired/eyed armenoid phenotype was present South of the Caucasus congruent with the Kura-Araxes civilisation. Yamnaya are descended from the Maykop culture rooted in the steppes North of the Caucasus, and would present a blonde/red haired, blue/green eyed phenotype, with some similar facial morphology (though lighter skin) to OPs pic related. The Akkadians encountered a descendant population of the Maykop people's after their destruction of the Kura-Araxes in the form of what they called the Gutians, and provide a contemporary account of their appearance as being "pale" as well as bas reliefs of Gutian prisoners who are clearly recognisable as European.>>17409479>>17410013>>17410242>>17410254Cope. The supreme god of the PIE is relegated to a minor role in the Vedas as Dyauspitr and Indra was called a Asura, which was the faction of the BMAC, before becoming the King of the Devas after dethroning Varuna (Asura-Medhira/Ahura-Mazda).Also = (N)Indara = Ningirsu (Ninurta) = Melqart/Hercules = Verethragna = Indra.>>17409576Another cope.
>>17413348Sumerians were a variation of CHG/Zagros that existed before PIE, which is a fucking language, not a race, like Semitic. Zagros mountains farmers, out of all of their contemporary genetic groups, clustered the closest to the CHG populations. In the modern world, the CHG populations peak in Georgia, they were the ones who created Iran_N, BMAC, IVC, Anatolian_N, PIE, Sumer, Elam, etc... all derived from Zagros/CHG.>Yamnaya, who are largely CHG (native to the Caucasus) with a good deal of European as well, emerge and develop steppe culture, likely borrowing chariots from Maykop, Botai and other non-IE cultures>They migrate both East and West. The Western migration mixes with EHG (eastern euros, cousins of WHG, who gave rise to the Nordics) and makes CWC. This is the start of the ethnogenesis of many of the "western" IE ethnic groups. Eastern migration gets all the way to China>CWC migrates towards the northern coasts of continental Europe>splits into western CWC and eastern CWC>western CWC goes on to form the Bell Beaker culture>eastern CWC goes on to form the Fatyanovo-Balanovo culture>FB culture migrates both southward and eastward>the migrants who went east eventually become the Sintashta (i.e. proto-Indo-Iranian) culture>the migrants who went south eventually become the Middle Dnieper (i.e. proto-Balto-Slavic) culture>the Sintashta culture develops into the Andronovo culture, which then develops into the Indo-Aryan culture
>>17413353All of Eurasia is connected. Chinese civilization was established (or at least influenced) by Indo-Europeans. Indo-Europeans got metals and wheels from Old Europe and Mesopotamians from the Caucasus. Indo-Europeans spread Y. Pestis to East Asia which later returned with other steppe people as the plague killing 1/3 of Europe. Pretty much all civilizations were established or influenced by the original agriculturalists from the Middle East. Earliest pottery appears in China some 20,000 years ago in an ANE like population, which later spreads West bringing pottery to the Middle East and Europe. An anon posted about this better than me:>Hey Brazilanon. I have a few things I want your opinion on. It's involving Persia, Parthians, and this place called Gandhara in India. So the person to first establish the Silk Road was a man named Mithradates II he was from Cicilia I know you're familiar with this place it's the trifecta of Hittite culture along with Phrygia and Syria. Groups like the Tocharians, Sogdians, and Yuezhi basically guided China to civilization, but the earliest texts in China use what's called Kharoshti script. You can find it on some coins even and of course China's first patriarch was Bodhidharma. But a frequent annoyance in trying to pin down this mystery cult genome revolves around Hindu-Buddhism. This religion has 33 gods and uses just about every type of custom Christians use. In fact people accused Buddhism of having a striking amount of similarities to both Gnosticism (ye olde Freemasons) and Pyrrhonism. They have tonsure, prayer beads, it's not just me who noted this Rudolf Rocker mentions it in Nationalism and Culture, but also Francis Xavier AND Buddhists accused each other of being degenerated versions of the other. Do you have any insight on this?
>>17413348>Varuna, the pre-eminent God during the formative Vedic religion>The adherents of Vedic religion had classified their gods under three spheres namely aerial, celestial and terrestrial. Judging the popularity of the gods on the basis of the number of hymns addressed to them, Indra, the god belonging to aerial sphere comes first followed by Agni and Soma. But during the early phase of the Vedic religion, Varuna though celebrated only in ten hymns reigned supreme among the gods worshipped by the Vedic people. The reason for this was because Varuna, a god belonging to the celestial sphere symbolised the sky. The sky pours water and bring life in the vegetation. The sky holds the sun, the moon and the stars and brings the day by bringing the sun out from beneath the sea. So, the Varuna or the sky was adored as a great deity. In the next stage of evolution, we find the pantheon comprises of two gods, the Varuna and the Mithra. The Mithra is the sun and the usherer of the day and giver of light and life. From this time onwards the dual deity Mithra-Varuna came to be the favourite god of the Vedic people and there are about 23 hymns in the Rigveda addressed to Mithra-Varuna together. Both Mithra and Varuna are spoken of as righteous and promoters of religion>A Universal Monarch>In the Rigveda, Varuna is called king of both gods and men. He is a universal monarch (samraj) with several epithets like ‘asura’, ‘mayin’, ‘rtavan’, ‘dhrtavrata’, etc. As an upholder of the physical and moral order, Varuna has attributes of a higher moral character than any other gods and hence men call upon him for pardon and purity. He is the upholder of ordinances which are fixed and unassailable. The Varuna hymns which are predominantly ethical and devout in tone give us the most exalted poetry in the Rigveda. In the Mahabharata and the Puranas, Varuna is referred as the son of Aditi and called lokapala
>>17413760>His father sage Kashyapa installed him in the west as the ruler of all directions, aquatic animals and waters. Varuna is also called Pracetas, Amburaja, Jalapati, Uddhama, Yadahpati, Viloma and his vahana (vehicle) is Makara (crocodile). Varuna is also worshipped for the sake of rain. There are two special reasons for Varuna’s connection with water- the first one is his characteristic punishment for the wrongdoer is dropsy- which is formation of water in the cavities inside the middle region of the body and second reason is the setting sun whose presiding deity is Varuna, appears to go down into the sea>Identified with Serpent God>According to Manomohan Ghosh, Varuna originally was a serpent god and Varuna panchami described in Nilamata Purana is in reality identified with the festival of Nagas, Nagapanchami. Varuna has been mentioned as Nagaraja in Buddhist works like Mahavyutpatti and the Jatakas. In a Napalese legend also Varuna appears as a great Naga>Varuna cult superseded by Indra cult>The Varuna cult in the Vedic religion is more ancient than the Indra cult. With regards to the evolution of the Indra cult R.N.Dandekar opines that Indra was a human hero who attained godhood by virtue of his miraculous exploits of defeating the sworn enemies of Devas (Manavas) that is the Asuras. A critical study of the Rigveda shows that there are three distinct phases of relation between the ancient Varuna religion and the new Indra religion. Some passages in Rigveda glorify Varuna as the world sovereign which represent the first phase. In the second phase we find hymns in the Rigveda which clearly indicate that Varuna religion was being pushed into the background and the Indra religion was aggressively coming to the forefront. We find hymns which refer to Agni abandoning Varuna and going over to Indra. In the third phase the followers of Varuna tried to bring about an honourable compromise between the two religions
>>17413771>They argued that after victory is won by the war god Indra, Varuna is needed to establish law and order and their slogan was Indra conquers and Varuna rules. This attempt to compromise was made particularly by the Vasishtas. Though superseded by Indra, Varuna continued to be the deity for whom rituals were held for the expiation of faults. In Atharvaveda, Varuna is conceived of as a God who chastises the sinners as well as pardons those who ask for forgiveness>Mazdaism inspired by Varunaism>Manmohan Ghosh opines that the cult of Varuna was carried to Iran sometimes in the Vedic age or before and Zarathustra’s conception of Ahura Mazdah was inspired by Varuna’s cult minus some of its unacceptable features like human sacrifice. As we know the Shunashepa legend recorded in the Aitareya Brahmana points to human sacrifice offered to Varuna. Zarathustra suppressed the name of Varuna as it was associated with bloody rites like human sacrifice and applied to his Supreme deity the generic name of Asura (Ahura), the title of Varuna with Mazdah (the wise)>Varuna identified with Supreme Reality>There are about eleven hymns in Rigveda in which Indra and Varuna have been invoked together. In these hymns Indra and Varuna are called the two monarchs of the universe who are called upon to render assistance in battle and grant victory. According to Usha Choudhuri, in the Vedic vision as well as in the entire subsequent thought, the bright aspect (Sathvika) of the Reality is considered to be the Supreme. As Indra represented the bright aspect, the Purusha, in comparison to Prakriti represented by Varuna, the former gained supremacy over the latter. From the philosophical point of view, Indra and Varuna when explained on microcosmic lines represent the Jivatman and the Kundalini Shakti respectively; that is, one is consciousness (soul) and the other is the gross form of consciousness (body)
>>17413777>Thus, Indra and Varuna represent the positive and negative aspects of the cosmic reality. This positive and negative aspect are complementary to each other and at the same time identical with the Supreme Reality>ReferenceSwami Sankaranand- RGVedic Culture of the Pre-historic India, Vol-II, Ramakrishna Vedanta Math, Calcutta, 1944Usha Choudhuri- Indra and Varuna in Indian Mythology, Nag Publishers, Delhi, 1981W.J.Wilkins- Hindu Mythology, Vedic and Puranic, 1913Ksetreshacandra Chattopadhyaya – Vedic Religion, Centre of Advanced Study in Philosophy, Banaras Hindu University, 1975R.N.Dandekar- Vedic Mythological Tracts, Ajanta Publications, Delhi, 1979R.C.Majumdar Edited- History and Culture of the Indian People,The Vedic Age, 1951Manomohan Ghosh – Varuna : His Identification, The Indian Historical Quarterly, vol -xxxv, December 1959, no-4
>>17413196Buddha was non-Aryan and non-Scythian. Sakhya <=> Saka cognate is debateable at best. The Scythians arrived into the region of the Gangetic plain around 2nd century BCE while Buddha existed around the 5th. The Scythians were restricted to the Achaemenid areas under the Indus Valley. But yeah, the starters of Mahayana Buddhism were not Dravidians but rather Greeks, Gandarhans (Basically Proto-Pashtuns and proto-Punjabis) and then Sughdians to bring it over.Buddhism was literally a reformist (subversive) movement to Aryan Vedism, Siddhartha rejected his position as a kshatriya of the Shakyamuni tribe as much as he rejected the authority of the Brahmins, so that he could rise as an Ativarna (beyond the caste), that's why Buddhists shave their hair. He was part of the great movement of Sramana (seekers) inspired by the Upanishads (commentaries of the Vedas) who aimed at the same thing. The Vedic religion was a religion about sacrifices, not insights. The Vedic gods themselves, in comparison to the sacrifice, were secondary and accessories, conceived as actors of the sacrifice and could only exercise their power thanks to the virtue of that same sacrifice, which has its origin in heaven. The Sramanists refuted all this shit.Because of this, the Vedic religion fell into disgrace to normal people, just as Roman Paganism fell out of favor with its expensive rituals and lack of spiritual satisfaction for non-elites. Brahmanists looked inward and tried to make up for what they lacked by absorbing elements of Sramanic philosophies and beliefs (Samsara, Liberation, Buddha was actually Vishnu, etc.). The Bhagavad Gita and the Puranas are written. Cults of personal devotion to one God become more prominent (Bhakti) from where we get the importance of Vishnu and Shiva over the Vedic gods. This is the origin of Modern Hinduism.
>>17413790In addition, Buddha claimed descent from the Solar dynasty, which itself seems to suggest, that Ikshvaku, the first of the Solar Kings was Dravidian. This happens because when Bharatas were losing they requested assistance from the Ikshvakus, the family of the venerated Lord Rama, and fir their assistance they named them Ardha-Dev (half gods), but not Aryans, because that term was reserved for only ten families.>King Ikshvaku was the son of Satyavrata also called Shraddhadeva Manu, the king of Dravida kingdom. According to the Vedas, Ikshvaku was the protector of the five territories of Panchajanah who were non-sacrificing pre-Aryan and non-Aryan people>According to Levman "while the Sakyans’ rough speech and Munda ancestors do not prove that they spoke a non-Indo-Aryan language, there is a lot of other evidence suggesting that they were indeed a separate ethnic (and probably linguistic) group."Mundas + Sakyans is basically a combination of Dravidian and Aryan. That makes sense since Buddhas clan were looked down upon and called unclean by surrounding tribes and towns, because they practiced inter caste marriages that most other areas of India had banned. They were called uncultured and tainted by surrounding Vedic and Indo Aryan tribes. The Canon describing him as blue eyed talks other total bullshit about him having a torch inside his forehead, magical flowers appearing around him and having the body of a lion. It was written hundreds of years after he died and is full of nonsense.
>>17413792Shraddhadeva was the king of the Dravida Kingdom before Pralaya, the great flood. Forewarned about the flood by the Matsya Avatar of Lord Vishnu, he saved humanity by building a boat that carried his family and the saptarishi to safety. He is the son of Vivasvana and is therefore also known as Vaivasvata Manu. Ikshvaku is one of the ten sons of Shraddhadeva Manu, and is credited to be the founder of the Ikshvaku Dynasty.The Atharvaveda and Brahmanas associate the Ikshvakus with non-Aryan people, distinct from the Aryans. Ikshvakus are associated with the Dravidians. According to numerous eastern and western scholars, the Iskvaku is derived from a Munda (Austroasiatic) name/clan. Buddhas clan was descended from Shraddhadeva and his sons.A lot of the canon written about Buddha was written many years after his death and is full of all kinds of fanciful embellishment. For instance, the official story is that Buddha was a spoiled Shakya prince who decided to leave his palace and kingdom behind to find enlightenment. But the Shakya republic was not a monarchy. Furthermore, by the time of Siddharta's birth, the Shakya republic had become a vassal state of the larger Kingdom of Kosala. The earliest Buddhist texts available to us do not identify Śuddhodana (Buddha father) or his family as royals. Its now believed they were minor landowners.Buddhas clan lived in what scholars presently call the Greater Magadha cultural area, which was located in the eastern Gangetic plain to the east of the confluence of the Gaṅgā and Yamunā rivers. Like the other eastern groups of the Greater Magadha region, the Shakyas were mixed caste saṃkīrṇa-yonayaḥ (of mixed origin), and therefore did not subscribe to the social organisation consisting of brāhmaṇas, khattiyas, etc. They were looked down upon by Vedic Indians who took the caste system extremely seriously and forbade intercaste marriage, and the Shakyas were said to have menial, somewhat peasant origins.
>>17413795The cremation rituals of Buddhas clan, which were performed for the funeral of the Buddha are described by Buddhist texts involved wrapping his body in 500 layers of cloth, placing it in an iron vat full of oil as a mark of honour, and then covering it with another iron pot before being cremated.These rites originated from the pre-Indo-Aryan autochthonous populations of the Gangetic plain, as were the practices such as honouring the Buddha's body with singing, dancing, and music, as well as placing his bones in a golden urn, the veneration of these remains and their burial in a round stūpa which possessed a central mast, flags, pennants, and parasols at a public crossroads, which were rituals that were performed by the pre-Indo-Aryan and Dravidian populations for their greater rulers.>The Discourses describe Gautama’s period of self-mortification in great detail, though their accounts read more like a compendium of practices than a description of what a single individual actually did. At the end of Gautama’s life, one discourse relates, he was reminiscing with his disciple Shariputra about the intensity of his efforts as a young man. He says he went naked, rejecting conventions, ignoring other people and even hiding if need be. Rather than begging, he lived on food he could scavenge: “greens or millet or wild rice or hide-parings or moss, grass or cow dung… forest roots and fallen fruits.” He stopped washing and became so dirty that the dirt flaked off his skin; he slept outside in the winter and stayed in the sun in the blazing heat of the hot season. Sometimes he stood or squatted continuously, or slept on a mattress of spikes. On one occasion he was sleeping in a cremation ground with the bones of the dead for his pillow when some boys came across him. They spat at him, urinated on him and poked sticks in his ears, but, he says, “I do not recall that I felt any hatred, such was my equanimity."
