Why did the UK never give up Northern Ireland?
>>17409820Fear of loyalist chimpouts. At first it was just a good excuse to mitigate their losses, and then it was a very real reason they were stuck hanging on to a completely unprofitable quasi-colony after the orange state completely nosedived the economy. Basically the Anglo trusted the eternal Ulsterman and paid the price.
can northern ireland join the irish while all the Irish don't speak Irish?everything is written in Irish but it's not working because they still speak english
>>17410059Yeah Irish revival is simply not happening. The basic mentality of the Irish revivalist since independence has been to outsource all the hard work of actually learning it to their children, who can’t speak it at home to their strictly Anglo parents, who come to associate with pointless school work and who have no real professional applications or even significant Irish media for adults. There is no daily Irish newspaper, for cinema you are limited to Kneecap, and there’s little for adults to read in it that isn’t thoroughly political. This entire exercise is basically just a way to punish children and further gatekeep the political class, it has no relevance to normal adults. If the entire Francophone world, all its resources and an even heavier handed state sponsorship of French can’t make Anglos in Montreal speak French then Irish is utterly doomed.t. Irish (and also technically British by virtue of being born 6 miles north of the border)I wish every white Anglo country would just cut it out with the gay LARPing and join the United States already.
>>17409820Why would they give up a part of their country that wishes to remain a part of their country?
>>17410125Brits in real life don’t really consider Northern Ireland part of their country. Few know anything about it and any Ulsterman that visits Britain is going to be considered Irish. It’s basically more like how Americans view Puerto Rico than how they view any states.
>>17410049>finasterideSuch a random word to throw around in an already incomprehensible babble
To actually answer OP; Britain never really intended to hold onto Northern Ireland this long.It was seen as a temporary answer to the Irish Question; in the speech opening Northern Ireland's Parliament in 1921, King George V openly alluded to potential future unification. Certain powers were never devolved because it was expected they'd be later absorbed.In the south, Ireland was not the country of the IRA. The Irish Free State was established through the suppression of the IRA with the National Army, which recruited heavily from British military veterans. It was a British dominion until 1948.But the simple truth is that there was never really a time to solve it.>1921>NI founded>Free State Sounded>Everyone expectes them to eventually unify>Irish Civil War causes this to not occur as early as expected>1930s>Trade war with the Free State, not really time to give them land>1940s>World War 2, in which Churchill suggested that a unified Ireland could be granted in return for Ireland joining the allies>1950s>The IRA run a campaign against the NI border, it fails misreablu>1960s>Civil Rights movement begins calling for reform>Loyalist Paramilitaries formed and start terror campaigns>1969>With British Army involvement and the a new IRA campaign, the Troubles begins>Republican movement gets a massive boost, IRA lead a very efficient campaign>Lose over 1,000 troops>Definitely not time to hand it over>1998 Good Friday Agreement makes it so that NI can leave anytime via referendum>we are now hereBut I'm happy to answer more in depth about NI history if you like.
>>17410235My gut tells me the Nazi looking fellow in black on the side where the verdant greenery ends is on the NIrish side.
>>17410241The two on the left are the Free State, the one on the right is Northern Ireland.
>>17410125Half the people in NI are ethnic Irish and don't have any loyalty to the UK and would welcome unification. Any Irish Catholics that don't care about unification it's usually down to them being employed by the British state and they fear losing their jobs or pensions if the Brits fuck off. The Brits don't even want NI and have threatened the unionists that if they collapse the NI government again the Brits will give the Irish government more sat over NI.
>>17410241All 3 of them in that photo probably know each other.
>>17411366Still that’s a pretty evil looking uniform
>>17411370>Uniform is slightly darker blue>ERMAGERD EBIL NARZEES!retard
>>17411402But neither of them are wearing any shade of blue. The Irish are wearing green and the NIrish guy is wearing black. Plus his hat looks more menacing.
>>17411419Sounds like you need to get your eyes checked mate, his uniform is very clearly a dark blue. Even if it was the darkest possible shade of black your point would still be retarded. >HiS hAt LoOkS mOrE mEnAcInG!!!!!!!!!!Are you trying to look braindead here? Or does it just happen accidentally?
>>17411425Dude the official colour of the Northern Irish police uniform from its foundation to the dissolution of the RUC was black. No idea why pointing out a black uniform with a cool hat looks a bit evil has you in such a tizzy.
>>17410123fucking faggot
>>17411500Seethe, cope, etc.
>>17411370>>17411402>>17411419>>17411425>>17411436The RUC's uniform was indeed black. From the 70s onwards it was a very dark green, which was also mistaken for black.
>>17410025>>17410235/thread>>17410093>>17410123americans and ulstermen are the most cucked of all nations
>>17411669>americans and ulstermen are the most cucked of all nationsUlster Unionists have indeed had it rough, but then again more or less all of it was brought on themselves.Both the Irish Revolution and the Troubles can be traced back to Ulster Unionists overplaying their hand; in the 1910s, Ulster Unionists destabilised Irish politics through their threat of rebellion and formed the Ulster Volunteers. The Irish Volunteers, which would later become the IRA, was formed to oppose them.In the 1960s, the governemnt of the Republic of Ireland didn't care about unification and wanted better relations with the north. A civil rights movement had begun, calling for democratic reforms in Northern Ireland. The IRA was in total disarray and had little popular support anywhere. The Government in Northern Ireland was open to reform.Ulster Unionists (hardliners, often referred to as Loyalists) formed paramilitaries in 1966 and began terror campaigns to prevent any reform and to suppress the civil rights movement. They destabilised politics and gave Irish Republicanism a new avenue of advance, which they capitalised on.The only actual victories of Ulster Unionism are;>The Sommeservice in WW1 is constantly referred back to as their finest hour.>PartitionIn which Ulster Unionists kickstarted the events leading to the Irish Revolution in opposition to Home Rule, only to then recieve a more severe form of Home Rule than ever prior suggested.
>>17411419The two Irish are soldiers and the other one is an RUC Police man. >>17411669>ulstermen are the most cucked of all nationsWhy?
>>17411669On the contrary those are the two least cucked peoples in the entire Anglo world. They’re not the problem with the Anglosphere, it’s the millions of Irishmen, Brits and Australians that think socialism is cool and identify with European anti-American resentment.
>>17411716>it’s the millions of Irishmen, Brits and Australians that think socialism is cool and identify with European anti-American resentment.Can you not see how fucking dumb and retarded that is? Crying about socialism too like some incontinent senile old retard boomer from America too.
>>17411720Nah the #1 reason I’m never going back to Britain or Ireland is the insane wealth distribution from those who work to those who don’t. Socialism is gay as fuck and Americans are completely 100% correct to despise it.
>>17411726Are you an American? Capitalism is gay as fuck too when the people who own the factories like say meat processing plants can import shitty immigrants to work in them like what happens in America for example. Pretty much every Mexican immigrants and others are in America because capitalists want their labour and if that means making white Americans a minority in the country their ancestors built then so be it so long as the rich get richer.
>>17411714>Why?Ulster Unionism as an ideology emerged with heavy enthusiasm from the British Conservatives, who were aiming to use it to kill the Home Rule movement.Protestants-including those from Ulster-in fact have a rich history of political influence in Ireland beyont that of >muh catholics>muh westminsterThe likes of Henry Grattan and the patriot movement called for the development of Ireland as a nation within the context of Ireland, Wolfe Tone and Henry Joy McCracken or Lord Edward FitzGerald worked with Napoleon and other French revolutionaries to establish a democratic Irish Republic, John Gray or David Bell worked to improve the lot of impoverished Catholics and tenant farmers. Some of them were rebels or revolutionaries, others reformers or great statesmen.The "Loyal Protestant Ulster Unionists" were a comparitively new grouping; while Protestants in the north-east were broadly aligned to British rather than Catholic Irish interests, they had a proud history of discourse and a wildly varied group of politicla traditions.The main accomplishments of Ulster Unionists were:>delaying Home Rule (it was later imposed on them)>giving Irish Revolutionaries a way to gain momentum by destabilising politicsThe "height" of Ulster Unionism was a less than 50 year peiod (1922-1969), which was a period of economic and political stagnation/decline in which Northern Ireland was ruled as a one-party Orange fiefdom by a cabal of mostly sectarian old boys. It imploded in 1969 into the Troubles, the end result of which was a set of extremely heavy concessions to Nationalists and Republicans.I wouldn't call them "cucked" but it's a woefully blackpilling history.>>17411726>>17411716Most of the economic disparity in Ireland/Northern Ireland is due to big corporations and landlords. Development Planners and vulture funds gut both heritage and social housing so everything's expensive and everything sucks.Ireland has never had a "left-wing government."
Of course, retards on the internet (usually Americans or Brits who have no idea about anything) sometimes idolise Ulster Unionists/Loyalists as le heckin based right wing white guys.In truth, for most of NI's history working class Protestants also languished under the rule of the old boy aristocrats in the Ulster Unionist party. The Troubles is where actual normal Unionists started finding their own political voices, but unfortunately these were all funnelled into the black hole that is the Ulster Unionist ideology.Any actual dissenting views that called for some sort of quality of life improvement (Progressive Unionist Party a great example) got sidelined in favour of>muh catholics>I HATE sinn féin, btwwhich is why Ulster Unionism is unironically still stuck in 1973; in endless damage control, trying to revert concessions that have been in place so long that to undo them would actually fuck over Protestant Unionists considering that the largest demographic in NI is now Irish Catholics.
The last hurrah of Ulster Unionism can usually be found in reference to the Troubles, where they'll boast of the war they took to the IRA.Throughout the period known as the Troubles, Ulster Loyalists killed 1,027 people.>Members of Republican paramilitaries (IRA/INLA, etc)41>Fellow Members of Loyalist Paramilitaries56>British Security Forces14>Catholic Civilians in Sectarian killings718You can see how these numbers don't really add up to "fighting the IRA." Many of the instances where IRA (or other Republicans) were killed were complete accidents; the Cappagh Killings, usually paraded as the "finest hour" of Loyalist gunmen, would have resulted in 0 Republican Paramilitaries dead were it not for the unplanned arrival of several unarmed IRA men at a pub looking for a pint.Loyalist Paramilitaries declared that they had two goals>stop/suppress the civil rights movement>stop/suppress Irish RepublicanismThey failed catastrophically at both and a very solid argument can be made that they in fact aided both of them through their own sheer incompetence.The eventual power-sharing agreement that ended the conflict in 1998 was strikingly similar to the agreement that Loyalists collapsed in 1972, with the only real difference between the two being that by 1998 there were 1,000+ dead British Security Forces, Sinn Féin had surged in popularity, and there were far larger and more numerous concessions to Irish Nationalists.
Loyalism/Unionism didn't emerge from the conflict in great shape, either. The Ulster Unionist Party, the party which had governed Northern Ireland since its conception, had it's last moment in the headlights in the 1998 elections-gaining 28 seats. However, this was overshadowed by the fact that the Irish Nationalist SDLP gained more votes than them-and than any other party.By 2003, Ulster Unionists rallied behind the DUP-the party which opposed the Good Friday Agreement, and since then it's been a march from failure to failure. Sinn Féin have been the largest party since 2022, the First Minister of Northern Ireland being the Cork born daughter of an IRA veteran. The DUP are the second largest party, but the #3 spot is safely held by Alliance. The Ulster Unionist Party is more or less an irrelevance.The two main urban centres of Northern Ireland-Belfast an Derry/Londonderry-are both Nationalist strongholds. Even traditionally staunch Loyal East Belfast, the beating heart of Ulster Unionism in the capital, has given away to the moderates of Alliance. Now, Unionism's main hope is for the British Conservatives to do poorly enough in an election to have to rely on them-which usually translates into short term gain but with a boot in the arse down the line when yet again they realise that the Tories don't care about Northern Ireland.
>>17411741Not yet but someday, for now I’m still just Irish/British.> them like what happens in America for example.That happens in every country in the world, it has been happening from the instant technology was invented to make it possible. I do not give a fuck if the government imports 10 trillion Mexicans to keep prices and wages as low as possible, that’s a healthy free market economy. In fact if they publicly shot socialists in the head to replace them with Mexicans I’d support it. >b-but muh ancestors, I am le entitled…If you’re white and you’re unironically working in a menial job in a meat processing plant as your long term career you hope to start a family on you’re a waste of your own genes and your brown grandchildren are just nature reaching equilibrium. This is what I hate about Europe. Socialism, nationalist buffoonery, and absurd entitlement - the continent.
>>17411883>Not yet but someday, for now I’m still just Irish/BritishWeirdo of the highest order.>If you’re white and you’re unironically working in a menial job in a meat processing plant as your long term career you hope to start a family on you’re a waste of your own genes and your brown grandchildren are just nature reaching equilibrium.This is what I hate about Europe. Socialism, nationalist buffoonery, and absurd entitlement - the continent.Kys
>>17409820>portraying the Irish as annoying pests and Brits as le based stiff upper lip Bunckingham Palace guardsYou realize most people sympathize with the Irish and don't buy into your propaganda right?
>>17411965Cope, seethe, etc.
>>17411987You'll never be an American just a weirdo who doesn't fit in and belong in their own land and who's probably on the spectrum and enthralled with American faggotry
>>17411883>I HATE SOCIALISTS AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYou are either American or you get most of your views spoonfed to you by retards on twitter. In western Europe socialists have been almost exclusively a force for good, ie bringing about improvements to quality of life for all.They quite literally do all the shit that American communists lie about them supposedly doing in eastern Europe and elsewhere.
>>17412014>You are either American or you get most of your views spoonfed to you by retards on twitter.If he's actually from Ireland then he's a complete weirdo that's completely detached from the people of Ireland and probably lived a sheltered life. Any Irish person that listens to American eceleb cringe like Shapiro and Peterson and rails about Socialism out of the blue is an anomaly and a cringe weirdo. There's probably a dozen such faggots on the whole island. People here in Ireland under the thrall of all the dung coming out of America are cancer.
>>17412063Lots of young Irish lads right now think they're part of a new wave of nationalism. They'll be Fine Gael voters in about 3 years if they aren't already. Just internet warriors who don't actually know anything about Irish nationalism or politics, or the history of either. They'll usually deride you from mentioning this because it doesn't fit their narrative.
>>17412012I literally already live in America with a green card. But by all means continue melting down.>>17412014Nah, in real life Western Europe is actually rather mediocre. I could live anywhere in Europe I want but I don’t because I like keeping the money I earn. Yeah you get free healthcare, but you’ll die in the waiting room. Yeah, education is cheaper, but there is no job at the end of it. Yeah, you’re better protected from unemployment, but there’s millions who take advantage of that. And you pay for all of this not just on payday, but every single time you buy something. VAT in the UK is absolutely eye watering and muh NHS is simply not even close to worth it when you look at it realistically.
>>17412063I got on alright in Ireland besides being taxed to shit and and hearing the usual nationalist programming (and its loyalist counterpart). But you raise a point, this is a very typical response because fundamentally it’s a very conformist culture in a rather feminine way. One of the few ways Irish culture, and for that matter the other peripheries of the British isles, differs substantially from American culture is its very much a place where you’re expected to go along to get along.> the people of Ireland and probably lived a sheltered life. Any Irish person that listens to American eceleb cringe like Shapiro and PetersonHave you considered you’re the one influenced by e-celeb culture war shit here?
>>17409820SKIBIDI AI SLOPPA!SKIBIDI SLOPPA :DDDSKIBIDI SLOPPA!!!!
>>17412068>Lots of young Irish lads right now think they're part of a new wave of nationalism. They'll be Fine Gael voters in about 3 years if they aren't alreadyI wouldn't say lots but a few. Working class Nationalist lads wouldn't vote for FG or any the main stream parties and most wouldn't vote for the kikes of Justin Barretts clown show either. There's no one for working class Nationalists to vote for. >>17412068>Just internet warriors who don't actually know anything about Irish nationalism or politics, or the history of either.Internet keyboard warriors? At least we aren't Cringepublicans from Belfast who've been to uni.
>>17411697>>17411714their existence is one of placation, first as a tool and in recent history as an annoyance, they are a disease on the land planted to be such by a sewer of discord that no longer cares>>17411716>the problem with the Anglosphere>Irishmen>think socialism is cool and identify with European anti-American resentmentthis is the definition of a cucked people, your masters no longer care for you and yet you fight the battles they caved on a century ago- ireland cares little for this "anglosphere" and seeks new ideas and allies from the continent and yet you rant and rave, demanding they stay but also that they are useless and subhumanyou are a pig, return to the wilds and serve yourself or silence your squealing and attend your slaughter quietly, we have little intent on following you
>>17412932On the contrary expansion of the United States is a very relevant question at the minute. I’m just saying why stop at Greenland and Canada? Britain, Ireland and the antipodes would make excellent states too.We don’t have to choose assimilation into Europe to remain viable, there’s an alternative better option.
>>17409820All the Brit’s have to do is have English soldiers marry Welsh, Scottish and Irish woman. There was not a single need to ever go to war if they played the long game.
>>17409820It's been ruled by the Brits for over 400 years. And parts of it have been ruled by England consistently for almost 900 years
>>17413173British soldiers get paid nothing so this was never viable
>>17413059I would rather see Ireland razed to the ground and the land slated than see it become a part of the USA. It would be too much even to be part of NATO and see fat fucks in US army uniforms about the country. I hate everything about America.
>>17413197>And parts of it have been ruled by England consistently for almost 900 yearsNo it hasn't. The Normans and then the English didn't come to Ireland until 1172 and they never conquered the country and were only able to bring it fully under their control in the first decade of the 1600s. Ulster and the area that became NI has been under their rule since 1607. The part of Ireland that was the longest under English rule was an area called the pale around Dublin from 1172 to 1922. Most of Ireland wasn't conquered until 1600 after the 60 year long tudor conquest that ended after the 9 years War and treaty of Melifont.
>>17410155Almost. The English to consider Northern Ireland to be English, the same way we don't consider Wales or Scotland to be England. We're all part of the United Kingdom and I see the Northern Irish, Scots, English and Welsh to be British (as in nationality I'm aware that northern Ireland is not on the island Britain)
>>17413801Why the asspain? America is our friend. Europoors you meet on holiday aren’t going to stop presuming you’re British and accept you if you performatively hate America on the internet hard enough.>>17413823I lived in England for 5 years and it was not uncommon to meet people that don’t even know what Northern Ireland is, let alone anything about it. If you run around England with any kind of Ulster accent people will just take you as Irish, even if you’re a die hard 1690 Protestant fundamentalist loyalist, in fact that kind of person would be considered extremely weird in England. Though it’s also very common for English people to see Ireland in general as British, and I can’t really argue with them on that. But they do get real mad when you question why we’re substantially different from Americans.
>>17413059 #expansion of the united states is only relevant to it's exceptionally greedy upper class and the flock that calls itself their "people", ireland can choose another century of slavery at their hands or a new, diplomatically, politically and economic egalitarian future through the continent's ideas>>17413848america is friend only to it's upper classes, it's experiment in israeli colonialism are of no interest to the far less easily duped irish people
>>17413197Ulster was only consistently ruled by England following the Nine Years War, aka from the early 1600s onwards. Most of this history was extremely tumultous even with this said; the colonisation efforts in the 17th Century were a shitshow, there was constant strife, and on multiple occasions in the 18th Century it was Ulster that served as the breadbasket of political unrest.First from an Irish patriot movement, then from a revolutionary one. The 19th Century is the only time we can really say it was ruled as "pacified" part of the UK, and even then most of it was plagued by extremely grim agrarian violence. We reach the 1840s and the Famine hits (it also devastated Ulster and the Protestant population, but this was mostly overlooked), then from the 1860s/1870s on it's all Home Rule or bust. In truth the less than 50 years in which Northern Ireland existed is the only time that Ulster Unionists aka "the Planters" got a go at ruling Ulster (or rather, some of it) their way, and it was such a poorly run sectarian shitshow that it collapsed within about 48 years without even a sliver external pressure-closest thing to it was the shitty IRA campaign in the 50s, which was so famously poorly recieved that it nearly killed the IRA.
>>17413848>America is our friend. American influence is a terrible thing. >Europoors you meet on holiday aren’t going to stop presuming you’re British and accept you if you performatively hate America on the internet hard enough.Other Europeans have asked me at times what language I was speaking even though I was speaking English so they wouldn't mistake me for British when I have a thick broad accent that they can barely understand even if they speak English themselves so naturally they'll ask where I'm from and not assume I'm British.
>>17409820To troll the Irish
>>17410155>>17413823I'd say the pair of you are right.As the first anon said, any Ulsterman-no matter how loyal he announces himself to be-becomes an Irishman the second he sets foot in England. But most English people don't think about Northern Ireland at all; it just isn't on their radar. There are exceptions, of course, but for the most part it's just weird Ireland.But then as the later anon said, there are the few who do genuinely see them as part of the "United Kingdom" family, that diverse and metropolitan mixture of people. However this falls mostly flat on its face when Northern Irish Unionists meet with other "big UK family" sorts since these groups tend to be moderate or progressive, pro-devolution and thus generally against the sort of sentiments that dominate Unionism.The UUP tried to fit into it with their "Union of People" thing (the "all together now" attitude to the UK, aka it's not perfect but its ours) but it failed misreably and now hardline Loyalism remains to be the voice of Unionism-which is reviled more or less everywhere. In truth, the animosity between Ulster Unionists (or very simple, Ulster Presbyterians) and England goes back centuries. Famously, the Presbyterians hated Westminster and the Church of England with a passion nearly matching that of their disdain for Rome. And, as we've seen before and as we'll see again, the British Government cares more about keeping good relations with the ROI than it does appeasing one half of Stormont.
>>17413935Only socialism is even stronger in Europe, upward mobility is lower outside of the most exceptional cases and even then the margin of discrepancy on the likelihood of remaining in the same class you were born between the USA and Sweden (for example) is very small. The USA is objectively a better economy than the EU. Add to that as a US state you actually have a say in the government rather than serving as a symbolic rubber stamp for an unelected bureaucracy. Fundamentally Ireland is not European in the cultural sense, it is Anglo. We speak English, our entire cultural framework is the same as the rest of the globalised Anglo world, we’re not Luxembourgers that speak 3 languages and can drive to 4 countries in an hour. Fundamentally Europe is not what we are, it’s what we wish we were: anything but Anglo. I’m saying this is small mindedness. We don’t have to be a small bullied outpost of the EU, we can join with our ethnic cousins of tens of millions of proud Irishmen in America, Canada, Australia and Britain.>>17414054The American led world is the only part of the world worth living in, beyond is only tyranny and oppression. Even Irish republicanism itself is an outgrowth of American influence.Every Irish person I’ve ever met that’s travelled to the continent, myself included, will tell you the same anecdote. “They thought I was British but then when I told them I was Irish they started being nice”, this is a trope at this point. Not to mention the British themselves have no shortage of thick accents that are incomprehensible to foreigners. Europeans have told me they flat out don’t consider the British or the Irish European and they’d be right not to. As an English speaking country we are so thoroughly embedded in American cultural hegemony that we take it for granted as easily as we do oxygen or gravity. If there is a Eurosphere, and parallel to that is an Anglosphere, culturally there is no dispute that we belong to the latter.
Irish threads are always a laugh
>>17413815>>17413990Incorrect and ignorant. Ulster was first taken in the 1150's with the Duchy of Ulster based out of Carrickfergus and the area around Belfast Lough. Eventually they lost most of Ulster except for Carrickfergus and the area around Belfast Lough. Antrim and the Northern Coast was ruled by English and Scottish clans for a good section of Ulster hasn't been under Irish control for almost 900 years. You pro Irish people always repeat the same B.S over and over again like you are reading a script
>>17416066*ruled by English and Scottish clans for a good, long time and
>>174160661. There has never been a duchy of Ulster based out of Carrickfergus, you’re talking about the Earldom of Ulster, which never actually even came close to covering a substantial part of Ulster or even just Antrim. Carrickfergus and sections around Belfast Lough were not its base, that was virtually the apex of its territory.2. The Scottish destroyed Carrickfergus in de Brus’ attempted invasion of Ireland, this marks the end of any polity existing there for about another 200 years when the English reestablished it as a base to wage war on the O’NeillsSo no, Carrickfergus has not been under British control for 900 years. They conquered it in the Tudor conquest along with the rest of Ireland outside of the Pale. Although I do appreciate the attempt to cast Gaelic Scottish clans from hundreds of years before the Union existed as continuity with modern British rule and not, you know, with Gaelic Ireland.
>>17416066>Incorrect and ignorantThe post refers to it being "consistently ruled by England."As you say in your own post, most of it was lost. Yes, some lands in Ireland have been under some form of English control since the 12th Century. But there have been Irish people in them for that entire time; the idea that 12th or 13th century English feudal holdings make for an ancient homeland of settlers is as laughable now as it was the first time it was mentioned; the history of the "planters" begins in the 16th and 17th Centuries. Ulster Protestants today rightfully call it their homeland but the notion that somehow thanks to a botched partition in the 1920s it is now more rightfully theirs than anyone elses is a meme.Of course most Ulster Protestants are secure enough in their identity that they are perfectly able to navigate the fact that all land they occupy has a longer Irish Gaelic history than any other, I don't know why tards on this site struggle with it so much.
>>17416558The Earldom of Ulster was pretty much destroyed and taken over by the Clandeboye O'Neils.>By 1347, Muirchertach Ceannfada O'Neill was the first King of Clandeboye not to be also King of Tyrone, controlling the parts of the old Earldom of Ulster taken over by the O'Neills. Most of their territory was east of the River Bann, in what would today be called south County Antrim and north County Down. The part of Clandeboye territory which was west of the River Bann was Loughinsholin, in what is today County Londonderry, including part of the Sperrin Mountains. This O'Neill line, which had lost out on the Kingship of Tyrone, although technically at first uirrithe (under-kings) of their Tyrone cousins, soon established their own autonomy. Geopolitically, they looked to offset the power of their Tyrone neighbors, by forming alliances with other powers in the area; the MacDonnells of Antrim (a clan of fairly recent Highland Scots descent descended from John of Islay, Lord of the Isles), the powerful O'Donnells of Tyrconnell and, when it suited, the Kingdom of England's Lordship of Ireland based in Dublin.
>>17410235To anyone who makes it this far down, this post answers the OP.The tl;dr is that since partition, there just hasn't really been a good time for Westminster to hand it over. But it wasn't necessarily their intention to keep it this long.
>>17416587I said parts of it in my original post
>>17416558The English rebuilt the place after the Bruce invasion. Your post is again historical lyrics ignorant
>>17416558And also my point was the clans weren't Irish. The Irish saying they controlled it hundreds of years ago is the same logic Isreal uses
>>17417161*historically ignorantNo idea how that post got so botched
>>17417158OP asks why UK never gave up Northern Ireland.Someone replied saying it's been ruled by Brits for over 400 years; this is mostly true, since more or less all of Ulster has been under English administration since around 1607, if we're being pendantic then we can say it was absolutely under consistent control from around the 1650s onwards.But then he goes on to say>parts of it has been ruled by England consistently for almost 900 yearsWhich isn't true at all for Ulster. Nowhere in all of Ulster has been under English control for 900 years. It was under almost entirely Gaelic control until the late 12th Century. From that point, it was mostly contested between Gaels and Normans, with the latter winning out in the end. From then on you have the O'Neills running things for the most part, and they at times did interface with English courts-but it wasn't until the total collapse of the Gaelic order in the early 1600s that Ulster was bereft of any authority but England, and it was only in the 16th/17th century that actual new settlements were being set up.Prior to that, most of the conquered land already existed as Irish land, or Irish towns, and so on.So in the context of this discussion-ie, England shouldn't return NI because parts of Ulster have been under English control for 900 years, it's fanciful at best.Ulster has been mostly controlled by England since the early/mid 1600s. Prior to that it was a constant back and forth between Gaels and Normans, neither of whom at the best of times had much interest in what England had to say.
>>17417177And in my posting point out carrickfergus the Antrim coast, the route and the ard peninsula weren't controlled by the Irish since the 900s, in which you or someone else attempted to dismiss it.
>>17417198Sorry meant in 900 years
>>17412332>But you raise a point, this is a very typical response because fundamentally it’s a very conformist culture in a rather feminine way. One of the few ways Irish culture, and for that matter the other peripheries of the British isles, differs substantially from American culture is its very much a place where you’re expected to go along to get along.I feel that all the Irish who were predisposed to free thinking and nonconformity must have emigrated to the US in the 1800s and left only the passive sheeple behind. Much like Germans.
>>17417198Carrickfergus itself was only really inhabited in the late 12th Century (the town), but I'm assuming you mean "in 900 years" not "since the 900s."I don't know if this thread has had a gasleak but several of my own posts have glitched and I've also misread a couple. Apologies if you've read any fluff of little relevance to what you're saying. Anyway, re: Carrickfergus yes, the place was largely destroyed by the Scots but as you say-the castle itself was rebuilt and a form of English administration survived even as the Earldom fucking died. It was an awkward enclave until around the 1380s when things got muddy, thanks to the O'Neill's. By the 1400s we know that;>Gaels controlled most of Ulster>English rule restricted to mostly coastal enclaves>Many of these, Carrickfergus included, are attacked and sacked/burnt by the Irish multiple times throughout the 1400s and 1500sAs late as April 1386, the Treasurer of Ulster was seeking funds to>build and repair the said towne, totally burned by our enemies and the enemies of our Lord the KingThen in 1400, the town was burned again. As late as 1460 we know that the English occupants of some of these coastal enclaves are in fact paying black rent to Gaelic lords. In fact, by 1471 the only place still reliably under control of "England" (as in, no authority existed save for England) was Carlingford.Decades later in 1513 the place gets burned down again, this time by the Earl of Arran. >1522John Allen, master of the rolls, notes that English laws were widely ignored. Then in 1555 the Scots burnt it, then in 1573 the Irish burnt it. So aye-I wouldn't call a coastal enclave that was burnt to the ground every 5 minutes and which at one stage even paid rent to Irish lords as some everlasting bastion of Englishness? Particulalry seeing as there remained to be an Irish population all around it.
>>17417161Yeah, 200 years later as part of the Tudor conquest of Ireland. Not exactly uninterrupted control. There’s parts of Leinster they controlled for longer. >>17417163Gaelic clans in Ulster and the Highlands at the time would have considered Gaelic clans from Munster or non-Gaels from other parts of Scotland more foreign than they would have each other. Irishness and Scottishness in the modern sense didn’t exist yet. At that point you may as well go back even further beyond and claim Dal Riada as British too.
>>17417297Frontier towns get burnt down and sacked all the time. No one claims that the Indians gained control of Jamestown just because they ravaged it and killed a third of the population in the 1600s
>>17417381A large part of argument is based on the pale being one of the few places in irela d under the direct control of the English king and ignoring places like the lordship of Waterford or limerick which were not under native Irish control but vessals under the English king
>>17417411*your argument
>>17417401Yeah but my point is that in the context of this argument, ie reasons why England never handed back NI, frontier towns that-as you say-got sacked constantly doesn't really count for much.Controlled by England means even less when English laws barely carried the weight of the paper they were written on, and local settlers at times paid tribute or rents to Gaelic lords.As for towns mentioned in >>17417411, these were already existant settlements later conquered by England while Carrickfergus is a town that despite scattered population centres in the region was only really populated for the first time by English settlers.But with all of this said, the thread is about *Ulster.* There aren't really any strong arguments for it staying in the UK. That's sort of the whole point.The main benefit is that supposedly in the long run it'll save some pensions and allow for a higher quality of life but that line has stopped meaning anything for a very long time now. If we're talking historical reasons, like we are ITT, they are few and far between.All roads point to a single Irish polity either independent or aligned with Britain. Partition in Ireland is as retarded a "solution" now as it was before, arguably even more so.
>>17417411>your argumentYou’re talking to two different anons. I’m just telling you there is no reality in which there was a “duchy of Ulster” based in Carrickfergus that persisted for 900 years. At this point you yourself have realised this is ridiculous and substantially walked it back, there’s massive periods of time in that 900 years where Carrickfergus didn’t even exist let alone under crown control
>>17417486According to you getting sacked means losing control for 200 years. I also never said it was the entirety of ulster. >>17417470No one in ulster wants to be a part of the republic of Ireland. The politics and culture at this time is too far apart
>>17417521Because… they did lose control for 200 years? Between that and the Chichesters 200 years later there’s this gaping window. This 900 year uninterrupted history doesn’t just require ignoring that, and claiming highland Gaelic clans as part of it, it even requires claiming the Clandeboye O’Neills. > The politics and culture at this time is too far apartI’m the last person to give a shit, I was the one arguing for a united Anglostate headquartered in America earlier, but the ruling party of NI at the minute is Sinn Fein and the culture between England and Ireland in 2025 is barely any different let alone between NI and the Republic.
>>17417521kek this all feels a bit like scooby do but the one you're replying to isn't me>no one in ulster wants to be part of the republic of IrelandBut he's right, sort of. The implication that scattered coastal holdings which were regularly burned to the ground and around which little to no English laws or customs were respected or accomadated means some great longstanding claim is very silly. Ulster Protestant history starts at the absolute earliest around 1606. As for>No one in ulster wants to be a part of the republic of IrelandThis is an extremely retarded thing to say.>The politics and culture at this time is too far apartThis is even more retarded.The main difference between a town like Carrickmore and a town like Newtown are the accents and the road markings. All 32 counties regularly play each other in sport, people interface constantly with one another, larger parties like Sinn Féin have a vast membership north and south, travel over the border and back is constant for all sorts. I would be someone who'd assert that a Border Poll anytime in the next 10 years will probably fail as things are now, but the idea that there's some vast cultural gulf is a LARP. Between Orangemen and the average Irish fella, maybe.
>>17417538They didn't lose control though. You're pretending they lost carrickfergus for 200 years and it's not the case. >>17417542Current politics in Ireland are too left wing for ulster. A bunch of nationalists aren't going to join a country that prefers foreigners to Irishman
>>17417875Who ruled Belfast lough in 1500? Pro tip: it wasn’t the English> Current politics in Ireland are too left wing for ulsterThe current ruling party of NI is fucking Sinn Fein, if anything NI is even more left wing. Even the DUP are red in comparison to the likes of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil
>>17417947Belfast was a fort under English control. The plantations just brought in more people
>>17418063Belfast didn’t exist in 1500, I’m talking about the lands surrounding the lough (it is called Belfast lough)!including modern day Carrickfergus and Belfast. In 1500 it was ruled by the Clandeboye O’Neils. As I told you the Anglo-Norman earldom of Ulster collapsed when the Scottish sacked it and it passed to Gaelic control until the Chichesters 200 years later. What kind of LARPing foreigner are you? Any actual Ulsterman should know this shit.
>>17417521>No one in ulster wants to be a part of the republic of Ireland.NI doesn't contain all of Ulster>>17417947he was talking about the ROI government's stance on immigration (still a dumb post though)
>>17418139The official loyalist stance on immigration policy is that it’s not Stormont’s jurisdiction, it’s up to Westminster. Plus Sinn Fein and Alliance (which young Protestants are defecting to in droves) are rabidly pro importing browns.
>>17418153Interesting. I guess NI doesn't attract a lot of them then, for better and/or worse.
>>17418118It did exist it was just a fort with a church at the time and considered an outpost of carrickfergus
>>17418245In 1500 the entire area was under O’Neill rule. There were no English forts in either modern day Belfast or Carrickfergus.
>>17418275We both know that's bs. If one single town is enough to send you into a fit then something is wrong with your arguement. Just admit that there are areas in ulster that haven't been under Irish rule for almost 900 years
>>17417239There used to be more based Irishmen but, WW1, the WOI and the civil war culled them. You see this a lot in European countries, all the violence of the 20th century selected for passivity and submissiveness. Mad Mike Hoare was probably the last Irishman to truly be an aristocrat of the soul.
Where does someone find out more info on places like the earldom of Kildare and Desmond
>>17418324If there was it certainly wasn’t around Belfast Lough, because the O’Neills ruled the whole area 500 years ago. Otherwise why did the English need to invade it? Why was the capital of the Clandeboye O’Neills in what’s now modern day Belfast? And why did a Gaelic Lord have title to the region granted by the crown themselves? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clandeboye_massacre> The Lord of Lower Clandeboye, Sir Brian McPhelim O'Neill, had violently opposed these attempts at colonisation. O'Neill would invite Lord Essex to parley at his castle in Belfast; > Lower Clandeboye covered a large part of what later became County Antrim in the east of Ulster. This claim was backed up against rival claimants by his acknowledgment as ruler by the Crown and he had been knighted in 1568 for service to the Crown.Whatever version of history you’re thinking about is fanfic that would make Sammy Wilson himself blush.
>>17418385https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfast_Castle#History>The medieval Belfast Castle was eventually seized by a branch of the powerful Uí Néill (O'Neill) dynasty of the Cénel nEógain, probably at the end of the fourteenth-century or the beginning of the fifteenth centuryNot even close to 500 years nor does it say anything about Carrickfergus
>>17418385Are you trolling? The beginning of the 15th century was 600 years ago. 600 is not smaller than 500, it’s bigger. Did you also even read your own link? It literally goes on to talk about 16th century O’Neill control.> After briefly taking Belfast Castle from Aodh Ó Néill (Hugh O'Neill), Lord of Clandeboye, in 1523, this Lord Kildare reported to King Henry VIII: "I brake a castell of his, called Belfast, and burned 24 myle of his country [sic]".[24]Belfast Castle was briefly occupied by English forces in 1552, when the castle was possibly rebuilt on the orders of Sir James Croft, who was serving as the Lord Deputy of Ireland at the time.[27] Another occasion when Belfast Castle was briefly seized from the Uí Néill of Clandeboye was in the 1570s, when English forces, initially under the command of the 1st Earl of Essex, occupied the castle for a few years during the short-lived Enterprise of Ulster.[9][19]During the Nine Years' War in the 1590s, English forces again occupied Belfast Castle, taking it over from the Uí Néill of Clandeboye.You literally have the English, or English aligned lords attacking Belfast castle 3 times in 1 century. Why are they attacking it constantly if they control it?>nor does it say anything about CarrickfergusRight because the Scottish destroyed Carrickfergus 200 years earlier and at this point the area was depopulated farmland. Still waiting on any source whatsoever about this 16th century English earldom that had its capital there.
>>17418410Meant for >>17418410
>>17418410A city getting sacked doesn't mean it's destroyed for 200 years and and you claimed the clanboye controlled it for 500 years when they didn't
>>17418420Okay so you should have an easy time coming up with any sources whatsoever about what was going on in Carrickfergus in 1500~ AD. Oh wait, you can’t, because by this point the medieval Anglo-Norman earldom of Ulster had completely collapsed.> and you claimed the clanboye controlled it for 500 years when they didn'tAre you an ESL? What I said was this > the O’Neills ruled the whole area 500 years ago. When someone says “X [time] ago they’re talking about a specific point in the past, if I said I took a piss an hour ago that doesn’t I spent an hour straight on it.
>>17411741ywnbaw
>>17418433* doesn’t mean
>>17418433And it was the last outpost of English control in the area. Your weirdo stance on Ulster gets shattered by the existence of one town
>>17418449Okay so who was ruling Carrickfergus for the English in 1500 AD
>>17418466How desperate and asinine of you
>>17418474Yeah you can’t answer
>>17418475Yeah it'd be like me asking you who the mayor of Brest was 500 years ago.
>>17418477Funny enough before the early 1300s and after the late 1500s it’s really easy to find information about the Lords of Carrickfergus and what was happening there. For some reason there’s just this huge hole in the history of Carrickfergus from the early 14th century to the late 16th. Weird, anyway yeah it was also the central English capital of Ulster but they just forgot to write anything down. Just trust me, bro.
>>17418496Because it was a time when not much is happening in the area. Go ahead and tell me who the mayor of Brest was in 1500
>>17418382Google the earls of Kildare and their ancestors, there's an old book you can read online.https://www.theirishstory.com/2015/09/23/the-desmond-rebellions-part-i-the-first-rebellion-1569-73/
>>17418498You are seriously telling me this was an important strategic outpost for one of the most literate cultures in Europe but that in 200 years nothing happened there, no one went there and that the names of anyone that ruled it was not significant enough to record. Are you for real?
>>17418515Yeah seeing how England was dealing with other things at the time. Disinterest in Ireland is one of the reasons why the Irish lords were able to rebound. Again go ahead and tell me who the mayor of Brest was
>>17418519I can easily find proof that in 1500 AD Brest even existed. Funny enough for Carrickfergus that’s just seemingly not possible. Okay.
>>17418527Only place it didn't exist is your pea brained head.
>>17418530Nice mapToo bad I already posted a better map >>17418118
>>17418539Rather pathetic m8. You pro Irish types have never been the brightest
>>17418543By all means continue arguing with imaginary fenians but unless you’re going to start posting sources I’m not really interested in entertaining your Orangeman role play, you weird ass foreigner.
>>17418545Your narrative that Ulster was 100% jewish I mean Irish 500 years ago doesn't hold up
>>17418547Did an Irishman cuck you or something? Strangle little man.
>>17418549>Oy Vey the Sasanach are on to us
>>17418512Thanks
