But but but it's not worship if there is no sacrifice!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orPtGxk3gg8https://museumcrush.org/anatomical-votive-offerings-of-the-greco-roman-world/#google_vignetteSO what? Still not idolatry because I said so!
>>17413586To be a Roman Catholic in decent standing, one must adhere to that church's current positions, which stem largely from incremental changes that the magisterium have made over the centuries. Such changes may have been influenced by lower-ranking church members. Mariology is an intricate field which has most certainly developed over time. It is up to you whether or not to believe in the current position of the Roman Catholic Church, if you want to be a member of it. The earliest Christians would not have had as much canonically defined about such matters as the field of Mariology or iconography, and there was generally more room for holding different positions, until the popes and other higher-ranking Catholics implemented changes to what is considered acceptable or not. Statues and images would likely have been unusual within the context of 1st to 2nd century Christianity, while it was heavily influenced by its originally large and usually more aniconic Jewish membership. Whether depicting God, Christ, or even the saints is ultimately wrong, or not, the current church does not believe this is so.
Still stuck in 1600's
I doubt most catholics believe they are worshipping mary, but I still feel venerating is worship in everyway except believing it to be so by those who do it.I theorize that this worship or "veneration" stems from pagans being upset that there was no female symbol to worship in Christianity. Most of these pagans likely couldn't read or understand the bible and so they just went along believing what they wanted. Thus began veneration (worship) of mary.It is sad to see how hard they cling to this practice even in the modern day. In my personal experience, many catholics are wrathful, boastful, prideful, and highly unstable when anyone questions this practice.
>>17413594>>17413597>>17413599Could any Catholics chime in?
>>17413831Mary veneration became more prominent after the Reformation but it was always a feature of Chalcedonian Christianity. It dates back to at least 4th century AD St. Athanasius and Gregory Nazianzus. For obvious reasons it's big in Eastern Orthodoxy as well. It became part of official doctrine in the Council of Ephesus, and like the Filioque it is amply supported by the Gospel.
>>17413831>>17413586I was raised Catholic. I never felt pictures or statues were items I was worshipping as a kid, but always found having a saint to pray to in every situation to be funny. Like when you lose something and pray to Saint Anthony.
>>17413599>>17413597>>17413586
>>17415668>"The Church stopped building new churches after 1950, right?"
>>17415674Damn even in modernity, Catholics show protestants what it's like to have actual culture
>>17413599>As for the word that thou hast spoken unto us in the name of the Lord, we will not hearken unto thee.>But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, as we have done, we, and our fathers, our kings, and our princes, in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem: for then had we plenty of victuals, and were well, and saw no evil.>But since we left off to burn incense to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto her, we have wanted all things, and have been consumed by the sword and by the famine.>And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven, and poured out drink offerings unto her, did we make her cakes to worship her, and pour out drink offerings unto her, without our men?Then Jeremiah said unto all the people, to the men, and to the women, and to all the people which had given him that answer, saying,>The incense that ye burned in the cities of Judah, and in the streets of Jerusalem, ye, and your fathers, your kings, and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the Lord remember them, and came it not into his mind?>So that the Lord could no longer bear, because of the evil of your doings, and because of the abominations which ye have committed; therefore is your land a desolation, and an astonishment, and a curse, without an inhabitant, as at this day.
protties are so insecure bros, I love it
>>17413586It's always funny when the people who believe in magic flying jews fight with each other.
>>17415821Cope, it looks like a funeral home
>>17415668>based and pointing to heaven Can also describe the tower of Babel. Thus these are not inherently positive qualities. >located in strip mall Literally no commandment against this. If there is one, please let me know. +it's another Catholics simping for those who actively anathematize them episode
>>17416055You worship in strip malls because you have no culture
>>17413599There is proof of marian veneration even in the first century BC, stfu retard
I like how Catholics just throw out "church history" without actually reading or citing any church fathers, assuming history defends Catholicism by default so there's no need to look into it.In reality, you can find support for multiple Protestant positions among the church fathers, just as much as you can for Catholic ones (and in some cases, like icon veneration, the Protestant position is far more supported.)
>>17417603And praying to created being
>>17417605And the Bible canon
>>17413586>worshipYet again, protestants believe we worship Mary because their view of worship is low that they consider asking for prayer and chants to be worship.Veneration of saints is Biblical.James 5> 16Confess your trespasses to one another and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is very powerful and effective.17Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the land.18Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain, and the land produced its fruit.The righteous have more powerful and effective prayers than us, so where is the problem in asking them to pray for us?The prayers of man can also cause God to accept people he wouldn’t have accepted otherwise.Job 42:8> 8Now then take seven bullocks, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and he shall offer a burnt offering for you. And my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will only accept him: for but his sake, I would have destroyed you, for you have not spoken the truth against my servant Job.We also see relics of saintly people helping.Acts 19:11-12>11Now God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul,>12 so that even cloths or aprons that had touched his skin were placed upon the sick, and their diseases left them, and evil spirits came out of them.2 Kings 2:13-14> 13And Elisaie took up the mantle of Eliu, which fell from off him upon Elisaie; and Elisaie returned, and stood upon the brink of Jordan;14and he took the mantle of Eliu, which fell from off him, and struck the water, and said, Where is the Lord God of Eliu? and he struck the waters, and they were divided hither and there; and Elisaie went over.Relics of saintly people like the handkerchief of St. Paul and cloak of Elijah helped a lot.
>>17417612>>17417605>>17417603>I love my protestant culture
>>17417669You are not allowed to serve statues as idols, not for religious purposes. God even commands the making of Cherubim of God. Exodus 25:18-22>18 And you shall make two cherubs graven in gold, and you shall put them on both sides of the propitiatory.> 22 And I will make myself known to you from thence, and I will speak to you above the propitiatory between the two cherubs, Again God commands the making of an image in Numbers 21:8 for healing.> 8And Moses prayed to the Lord for the people; and the Lord said to Moses, Make you a serpent, and put it on a signal-staff; and it shall come to pass that whenever a serpent shall bite a man, every one so bitten that looks upon it shall live.And finally, >Council of Trent, Sess. 25, Decree on Sacred Images: “Moreover, that the images of Christ, of the Virgin Mother of God, and of the other saints are to be placed and retained especially in the churches, and that due honor and veneration is to be given them; not, however, that any divinity or virtue is believed to be in them by reason of which they are to be venerated, or that something is to be asked of them, or that trust is to be placed in images, as was done of old by the Gentiles who placed their hope in idols; but because the honor which is shown them is referred to the prototypes which they represent, so that by means of the images which we kiss and before which we uncover the head and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ and venerate the saints whose likeness they bear. That is what was defined by the decrees of the councils, especially of the Second Council of Nicaea, against the opponents of images.”So the Catholic position on icons and statues is Biblical.
>>17413831Yes there you go >>17417675>>17417669
>>17417612Several of these are incorrect, but go on and slander the catholics some more.
>>17417605No one prays to them, you ask them for intercession.Hermas> “[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).Clement of Alexandria> “In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).Origen> “But not the high priest [Christ] alone prays for those who pray sincerely, but also the angels . . . as also the souls of the saints who have already fallen asleep” (Prayer 11 [A.D. 233]).Cyprian of Carthage> “Let us remember one another in concord and unanimity. Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another. Let us relieve burdens and afflictions by mutual love, that if one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father’s mercy” (Letters 56[60]:5 [A.D. 253]).Methodius> “Hail to you for ever, Virgin Mother of God, our unceasing joy, for to you do I turn again. . . . Hail, you treasure of the love of God. Hail, you fount of the Son’s love for man” (Oration on Simeon and Anna 14 [A.D. 305]).Want me to add any?
>>17417612 Why are you appealing to a source outside of the Bible? This is against Sola Scriptura. Didache> “You shall not waver with regard to your decisions [Sir. 1:28].” “Do not be someone who stretches out his hands to receive but withdraws them when it comes to giving [Sir. 4:31]” (Didache 4:5 [A.D. 70]).The Letter of Barnabas>“Since, therefore, [Christ] was about to be manifested and to suffer in the flesh, his suffering was foreshown. For the prophet speaks against evil, ‘Woe to their soul, because they have counseled an evil counsel against themselves’ [Isa. 3:9], saying, ‘Let us bind the righteous man because he is displeasing to us’ [Wis. 2:12.]” (Letter of Barnabas 6:7 [A.D. 74]).>Clement of Rome“By the word of his might [God] established all things, and by his word he can overthrow them. ‘Who shall say to him, “What have you done?” or who shall resist the power of his strength?’ [Wis. 12:12]” (Letter to the Corinthians 27:5 [ca. A.D. 80]).>Polycarp of Smyrna“When you can do good, defer it not, because ‘alms delivers from death’ [Tob. 4:10, 12:9]” (Letter to the Philadelphians 10 [A.D. 135]).>Hippolytus“What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah” (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).
>>17417724Irenaeus>“Those… who are believed to be presbyters by many, but serve their own lusts and do not place the fear of God supreme in their hearts, but conduct themselves with contempt toward others and are puffed up with the pride of holding the chief seat [Matt. 23:6] and work evil deeds in secret, saying ‘No man sees us,’ shall be convicted by the Word, who does not judge after outward appearance, nor looks upon the countenance, but the heart; and they shall hear those words to be found in Daniel the prophet: ‘O you seed of Canaan and not of Judah, beauty has deceived you and lust perverted your heart’ [Dan. 13:56]. You that have grown old in wicked days, now your sins which you have committed before have come to light, for you have pronounced false judgments and have been accustomed to condemn the innocent and to let the guilty go free, although the Lord says, ‘You shall not slay the innocent and the righteous’ [Dan. 13:52, citing Ex. 23:7]” (Against Heresies 4:26:3 [A.D. 189]; Daniel 13 is not in the Protestant Bible).>“Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left on the earth, should both be under the rule of the saints and to minister to this [new] Jerusalem and that [his] kingdom shall be in it, saying, ‘Look around Jerusalem toward the east and behold the joy which comes to you from God himself. Behold, your sons whom you have sent forth shall come: They shall come in a band from the east to the west. . . . God shall go before with you in the light of his splendor, with the mercy and righteousness which proceed from him’ [Bar. 4:36—5:9]” (ibid., 5:35:1; Baruch was often considered part of Jeremiah, as it is here).
>>17417727Hippolytus>“What is narrated here [in the story of Susannah] happened at a later time, although it is placed at the front of the book [of Daniel], for it was a custom with the writers to narrate many things in an inverted order in their writings. . . . [W]e ought to give heed, beloved, fearing lest anyone be overtaken in any transgression and risk the loss of his soul, knowing as we do that God is the judge of all and the Word himself is the eye which nothing that is done in the world escapes. Therefore, always watchful in heart and pure in life, let us imitate Susannah” (Commentary on Daniel [A.D. 204]; the story of Susannah [Dan. 13] is not in the Protestant Bible).Cyprian of Carthage> Cyprian of Carthage>“In Genesis [it says], ‘And God tested Abraham and said to him, “Take your only son whom you love, Isaac, and go to the high land and offer him there as a burnt offering”’ [Gen. 22:1–2]. . . . Of this same thing in the Wisdom of Solomon [it says], ‘Although in the sight of men they suffered torments, their hope is full of immortality’ [Wis. 3:4]. Of this same thing in the Maccabees [it says], ‘Was not Abraham found faithful when tested, and it was reckoned to him for righteousness’ [1 Macc. 2:52; see Jas. 2:21–23]” (Treatises 7:3:15 [A.D. 248]).>“So Daniel, too, when he was required to worship the idol Bel, which the people and the king then worshipped, in asserting the honor of his God, broke forth with full faith and freedom, saying, ‘I worship nothing but the Lord my God, who created the heaven and the earth’ [Dan. 14:5]” (Letters 55:5 [A.D. 253]; Daniel 14 is not in the Protestant Bible).
>>17417685I even provided the citations where all these figures list which books they included in the Bible canon. "Ur wrong" is not an argument.>>17417724>Why are you appealing to a source outside of the Bible? This is against Sola Scriptura.No it's not. Sola Scriptura says you scripture is the highest authority, not that you can't read anything else ever.And you do the typical Catholic thing of spamming a catena of Church Father citations as if that proves the entire church always agreed with the current Catholic position. That's why I posted those images, to show that you can do exactly the same in support of a Protestant position, I even said so in my post here >>17417603. You can't just spam church fathers and say "that settles it" because a lot of other church fathers disagree with you.The final Catholic cope is to say "No, you're not allowed to read the church fathers, you're Protestant!" Which shows that their argument about church history relies entirely on the claim that they own the fathers exclusively, therefore the fathers automatically support catholic positions. But I've showed that to be false.
>>17413586Those are requests for intercession for healing or thanksgiving for a successfull intercession. Not sacrificial offerings. >>17417612>>17417605>>17417603See what happens in Acts. The Church had variety of opinion, so the elders and apostles joined in a council to establish doctrine. After that, there is no room for variety of opinion on that topic. So, it makes no sense to pick Fathers taht had the wrong canon or wrong opinion on whatever matter, because after a council setled it, there is no room for heterodox opinion. The Holy Spirit has taught and everyone obeys.As Paul said '...the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth'.Also as a protestant one cant even quote those early bishops and priests since you dont believe those offices are real, thus are in total contradiction to those fathers from how the Church even is and functions.
>>17415668Kek
>>17417839>sola scripturaIf the Bible is the only infallible authority than how can you appeal to these fallible authorities?>>17417612And many of those you quoted didn’t reject these books and were just skeptical and even quotes these books, once I’m back in the afternoon I will continue.Not to mention that you all accepted these books for a long time before the reformation. Why did you just suddenly reject them?
>>17416826Culture is human creation. The church is not a human creation, but strip malls are.
>>17417675why weren't they supposed to bow?
>>17417899>because after a council setled it, there is no room for heterodox opinion. The Holy Spirit has taught and everyone obeys.the fuck kind of logic is this?"1700 years ago some guys put it to a vote, and God wouldn't let a vote reach the wrong conclusion"? what like He overrode their free will to make them vote for the right option?
>>17416826>>17417671>centuries old church>selll it off to become a pizzeria because no one can be bothered turning up anymoreVGH
>>17417899>So, it makes no sense to pick Fathers taht had the wrong canon or wrong opinion on whatever matter, because after a council setled it, there is no room for heterodox opinion. Do you really make the claim that there are no contradiction between the councils accepted by the roman church?
>>17418781>If the Bible is the only infallible authority than how can you honor your mother and father like your Lord commanded?
>>17415668not an argument
>>17415668>Catholics try to appeal to god with many objects, as pagans do>Protestants see no need for this
>>17417671>he doesn't know protestantism was invented in europe!
>>17415668
>>17418842Eh, it's fitting. House of bread and wine.
>>17418931what about house of usury and moneylending
>>17413586>implying protestants are any better
