>just follow... le dao...
What did Lao Zi mean by this?

Wu wei (inaction) is a bad thing.

It's not
The I Ching is though

>>17414824
meaning is overrated

>>17414835
there is no such thing as a bad thing

>>17414912
the I Ching will drive you mad if you overuse it
the Tao Te Ching won't

>>17414835
wu wei isn't inaction

>>17415561
It is by what I read. At maximum, it's economy of energy, which is still bad to me. But please elabirate?

>>17415830
No. It has nothing to do with any of that. It is about harmonizing with the dao. It has a cognate with the buddhist notion of present mindfulness.

With such woeful interpretation of the scriptures, I really think you ought to seek a monk rather than self-educate. That might be hard if you're outside of Taiwan.

>>17415830
>economy of energy is bad
number must go up amirite

>>17416223
>It is about harmonizing with the dao
Could you explain that more deeply? Because to me it seems to imply economy of energy.

>>17416920
Wu wei is basically the ultimate life hack: stop trying so hard, and stuff just works. It’s not about doing nothing; it’s about doing just enough—like water finding its way downhill without breaking a sweat. Now, about free will? Total cope. You think you’re in control, but every choice you make is just the result of biology, upbringing, and whatever random nonsense got dumped into your brain over the years. The Tao already called it—you're a leaf floating in the current, not some captain steering a ship. Wu wei just says, “Stop pretending you’re in charge and enjoy the ride, idiot.”

>>17416929
>stop trying so hard
>it’s about doing just enough
>like water finding its way downhill without breaking a sweat
>Stop pretending you’re in charge and enjoy the ride
All of these things imply economy of energy. How would you deny that?

>>17416929
The more fans of Eastern philosophy speak the more I understand why the East never developed a steam engine

>>17416970
The East may have its flaws, but at least it still holds onto something real—spiritual depth, strong family structures, and a connection to tradition. The West, in contrast, is a grotesque, rotting carcass, spiritually hollow and intellectually bankrupt. Years of consumerism, mind-numbing entertainment, and a deliberate erasure of wisdom have turned Western society into a brain-dead shell, addicted to instant pleasure and distractions. While the East still has some semblance of self-realization and families that provide purpose, the West is drowning in a toxic stew of fear, guilt, and submission, with broken people who can’t even recognize the emptiness they’re trapped in. The elites exploit and drain the energy of this zombified population, keeping them too distracted and spiritually starved to ever wake up. The West is a lost cause—an irreparable, decaying wasteland that’s been utterly consumed by its own decadence.

>>17416976
>consumerism, mind-numbing entertainment,
all staples of the East you love so much

>>17416976
Can you provide some actual data to support a word of this? "Strong family structures"? My man, in China (basically the only place Taoism even exists) they didn't even let you have multiple kids and so they have a ticking gray elderly demographic timebomb. They are the epitome, perhaps the very biggest example in human history, of how to completely ruin family structure and function

>>17416964
NTA but why would that be a bad thing you silly moron?

>>17417192
Imagine that someone is gonna kill your whole family. Will you economize energy to save them?

>>17417230
Martial arts focus on achieving maximum effectiveness with minimal effort by emphasizing precision, economy of motion, and proper technique. Movements are streamlined to conserve energy and exploit leverage, balance, and momentum for optimal impact or control. Through timing, strategy, and efficient energy use, martial artists aim to neutralize opponents effectively without unnecessary exertion.

>>17417230
Warfare, like martial arts, values efficiency of action, and Sun Tzu's The Art of War emphasizes this principle. He advocates for achieving victory with minimal conflict, using strategy, deception, and timing to exploit an enemy’s weaknesses while conserving resources. Sun Tzu stresses that the greatest victories come from outmaneuvering opponents without prolonged battles, demonstrating that efficiency and careful planning are the keys to success in war.

>>17417236
>>17417245
Suppose saving your family will require more energy than not saving, or than trying to save them with the risk of failing. What do you do:
1) Use however much energy necessary to try to save them
2) Use minimal energy necessary to try to save them.
3) Nor even bother to save them.
?

>>17416970
>steam engine
why would they need these noisy contraptions when they already mastered hydraulic engineering thousands of years ago

>>17417274
It seems like you're misunderstanding wu wei. It’s not about refusing to act or avoiding effort; it’s about acting in harmony with the situation, efficiently and without unnecessary struggle. Even in a scenario where my family is in danger, wu wei would guide me to respond instinctively and effectively, rather than wasting energy on panic or excessive force. It’s about channeling effort in the most natural and productive way. Extreme scenarios don’t disprove wu wei; they actually show its value in promoting clear, decisive action when it matters most.

>>17417298
Given how China (again the only place Taoism really exists) is now filled with motors of various sorts, they seem to have been very much of the opinion that they did in fact need them.

>>17417230
will wasting your energy save them?

>>17417299
When I asked you to define "acting in harmony", you only gave examples of things that implied economy of energy (>>17416929 #). Also, you haven't answered the question.
>>17417312
The circumstances of the situation I specified already in the post.

>>17417320
Your fixation on these contrived scenarios completely misses the point of wu wei. I’m not here to waste energy debating your imaginary emergencies. The principle itself is about not engaging in pointless struggle—exactly what you’re trying to drag me into. So, in the spirit of wu wei, I’m letting this go.

>>17417309
yeah and these motors are today mostly electric and plenty of them are alimented by hydro-electric power?

>>17417323
What I meant, and the point of my example, is that the attempt of not wasting energy can lead to failure. Moreover, if a big amount of energy is needed to save your family, and you spend it, no energy is wasted, which is possibly not the opinion of Taoism.

>>17417322
the best course of action would be to avoid these circumstances in the first place
you only propose a desperate waste of energy when it's already too late

>>17417339
You’re still misunderstanding wu wei. It’s not about refusing to expend energy when necessary—it’s about avoiding waste and acting with purpose. If saving my family requires maximum effort, then using that energy isn’t wasteful; it’s exactly what the moment demands. Taoism isn’t about passivity or laziness, and your attempt to twist it into some rigid refusal of action only proves you’re arguing in bad faith. Stop reaching for imaginary scenarios to force a contradiction where none exists.

>>17417322
>economy of energy bad
why

>>17417339
everything can lead to failure

>>17417350
He thinks he’s the star of some action movie where Taoism fails because the hero doesn’t sprint through a wall of fire to save the day. In reality, he’s just misunderstanding wu wei entirely—imagining it’s about doing nothing or refusing effort, instead of acting with purpose and efficiency. He’s so caught up in his contrived scenarios that he’s completely missing the point, like someone trying to debate philosophy after binge-watching bad Hollywood thrillers.

>>17417347
>the best course of action would be to avoid these circumstances in the first place
You mean you can control when someone tries to kill your family?
>you only propose a desperate waste of energy when it's already too late
As I said, if a big amount of energy is necessary to save them, it's not waste. And so what it's late? When you miss doing wu wei once and come to a bad situation you can't anyhow anymore?
>>17417348
>If saving my family requires maximum effort, then using that energy isn’t wasteful; it’s exactly what the moment demands.
That's great in my opinion, but that's not what I read of it nor what you explained previously with your metaphors.
>Taoism isn’t about passivity
Then what does it mean to follow the Dao?
>>17417350
>>17417339

>>17417353
Yes, but prioritizing some external goal like economy of energy other than the first goal itself is more prone to failure.

>>17417360
sadly you can only sprint through a wall of fire to save the day so many times

>>17417364
>You mean you can control when someone tries to kill your family?
no one ever killed my family so it looks like I'm doing a pretty good job at it lol

>>17417364
>Then what does it mean to follow the Dao?
in your case it means you should kys asap

>>17417370
>prioritizing some external goal like economy of energy
why

>Wu wei (traditional Chinese: 無為; simplified Chinese: 无为; pinyin: wúwéi) is a polymorphic, ancient Chinese concept expressing an ideal practice of "inaction", "inexertion" or "effortless action",[a][1][2] as a state of personal harmony and free-flowing, spontaneous creative manifestation.

>It would go on to become a central concept in "Legalist" statecraft and Daoism, in Daoism as a concept emphasizing alignment with the natural Dao in actions and intentions, avoiding force or haste against the natural order

>Sinologist Jean François Billeter describes wu-wei as a "state of perfect knowledge (understanding) of the coexistence of the situation and perceiver, perfect efficaciousness and the realization of a perfect economy of energy".

>The early scholarship of Feng Youlan suggested a distinction between philosophical and religious Daoism.[7] Following him, sinologist Herrlee G. Creel took a "contemplative Daoism" as coming first, and "purposive Daoism" second.[8] Creel took wu wei as found in the Zhuangzi and Daodejing as denoting two different things:[9]

An "attitude of genuine non-action, motivated by a lack of desire to participate in human affairs" and
A "technique by means of which the one who practices it may gain enhanced control of human affairs".
The first aligns closely with the contemplative Daoism of the Zhuangzi. (...)

>Called "rule by non-activity" and strongly advocated by the Han Feizi, during the Han dynasty until the reign of Han Wudi, rulers confined their activity "chiefly to the appointment and dismissal of his high officials".

>Following its developments elsewhere, Zhuang Zhou and Laozi turn towards an unadorned "no effort". Laozi, as opposed to carved Confucian jade, advocates a return to the primordial Mother and to become like uncarved wood. He condemns doing and grasping, urging the reader to cognitively grasp oneness (still the mind), reduce desires and the size of the state, leaving human nature untouched.

(1/2)

>>17417392
(2/2)
Though, by still needing to make a cognitive effort, perhaps not resolving the paradox of not doing, the concentration on accomplishing wu wei through the physiological would influence later thinkers.[23]

>>17417364
plz stop
your stupidity hurts my brain

>>17417380
No, you're just lucky (and sheltered).
>>17417389
That's the point of wu wei.

>>17417377
>>17417386
>>17417396
Very nice arguments.

>>17417364
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”

>>17417400
you're welcome

>>17417399
>you're just lucky (and sheltered).
I am indeed and so should you

>>17417399
You clearly can’t grasp the concept of wu wei. You're out here looking for a goal or a point, but that’s the exact opposite of what wu wei is about. The moment you start trying to create a purpose or endgame, you’ve completely missed the essence. Wu wei isn’t about control, and it sure as hell isn’t about forcefully saving energy for some dramatic moment. You’re so caught up in trying to make sense of it in your narrow terms that you’re just proving you don’t understand it at all.

>>17417399
>That's the point of wu wei.
the point of wu wei isn't 'prioritizing some external goal'

>>17417425
indeed
it's sad to see

>>17417333
Huh? My point is that their society did not independently get even as far as a steam engine

>>17416920
>Could you explain that more deeply?
It is a purification of existence. The christian cognate is to act while full of grace. Two rivers of the exact same properties form two world lines, one murky, one clear. The clear one is auspicious and more beautiful, it is characterized by its harmony.

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>>17417076
Chinese families are extremely traditional and not nuclear. Risks are collectivized and minimized from the top down. Pooled assets amongst 30+ people.

Nursing homes and nuclear families are seen as horrifying and cold. You also have strong filial duties, pray to your ancestors frequently, etc.

It sounds to me like you don't understand the first thing about China. This is the kind of retarded shit you learn by watching midwit propaganda videos. No concept of life on the ground or people, just macroscopic neoliberal metrics that say nothing important.

THAT is why you will never understand Lao Zi.

>>17416970
>>17417076
>they didn't even let you have multiple kids and so they have a ticking gray elderly demographic timebomb.

South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and Japan are below replacement fertility.

South Korea and Taiwan fertility is lower than China.

The US forced Taiwan, South Korea and Japan to implement population control in the 50s and 60s, South Korea had a two child policy.

US also made India do the same population control sterilisations by withholding humanitarian aid from India

The one child policy was implemented in 1979, after US established relations with China and the US demanded China follow South Korea, Taiwan, Japan and India's forced population control.

The one child policy is literally a western policy you retard, how did you think China managed to exist for thousands of years before that without shrinking its population?

Traditional Chinese culture condemns birth control.

Westerners introduced population control to East Asia, and western counties fertility are also collapsing and below replacement.

>>17417946
>Nursing homes and nuclear families are seen as horrifying and cold.
Not even remotely close to being true.
The most common lie told about many cultures is that they care about their elders.
>>17417958
>The US forced Taiwan, South Korea and Japan to implement population control in the 50s and 60s, South Korea had a two child policy.
No, they just introduced stupid Ideas into Asia that Asians copied. Feminism and communism being two examples.
>>17417958
>The one child policy is literally a western policy you retard

"China's family planning policies began to be shaped by fears of overpopulation in the 1970s, and officials raised the age of marriage and called for fewer and more broadly spaced births.[3] A near-universal one-child limit was imposed in 1980 and written into the country's constitution in 1982"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy
America didn't write the Chinese constitution lol.

>>17417981
>Not even remotely close to being true.
>The most common lie told about many cultures is that they care about their elders.
It is. You would know if you ever had a Chinese gf.

>>17417958
>US also made India do the same population control sterilisations by withholding humanitarian aid from India
That wasn't US that was USSR directing this action after the 1975 Emergency in India where the Constitution was illegally changed (change was adding the words Socialist and Secular were added to the preamble at the point of a gun) at the behest of the Soviets who wanted a return of favour for supporting india in 1971 Bangladesh Liberation war.

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>>17417946
I repeat my words: can you provide some actual data or are you just going to vaguely handwave at stereotypes?

There's nothing "extremely traditional" about the demographic disaster China is racing towards, and in many ways is already in, because of their utterly abysmal approach to family which was uniquely terrible in world history. No country has ever had a worse approach to family

>>17417958
>The one child policy is literally a western policy you retard
...and you have some evidence for this?

>>17417987
>It is. You would know if you ever had a Chinese gf.
It's not, and you don't need to racemix to work that out. Chinese immigrants straight out of China are everywhere you idiot.

>>17416970
>>17417832
China had a complex machine run off of steam power during the Song Dynasty 960-1279 AD
The first steam engine was produced in the first century Egypt btw

>>17417993
China has been 'racing towards disaster' since as far as I can remember.
Two more weeks maybe?

>>17418052
Ah so you're just that retarded white supremacist schizo. I see now. How delightful.

>>17417981
>>17417993
USAID was directly involved in sterilising Indians under Indira Gandhi and they sterilised South Koreans, Taiwanese ans Japanese.

The US even threatened India with throttling food aid off if USAID and Rockefeller foundation weren't allowed to snip Indian testicles.

Rockefeller foundation on their websites openly brag about their role in sterilising Taiwan, South Korea, Japan and India.

The one child policy was implemented after Rockefeller pressured China to follow South Korea, Japan and India's policies in exchange for lifting diplomatic relations and sanctions.

>>17417993
>>17417981
>>17418451

https://archive.is/P8GUb

https://archive.is/sXlQo

https://archive.is/h94ph

>>17418108
Chinese people are so moronic.
(1) Most China haters are INDIAN.
(2) The Chinese ARE racial supremacists.
(3) Chinese people are insect slaves to their government. Hell the Chinese government literally has unofficial police in Australia monitoring Chinese migrants. So Chinese people can lose their social credit scores even when they are in another country. It's psychotic.

>>17418451
India is the most populous country in the world...
And you aren't giving any numbers or sources for anything.
>>17418451
>The one child policy was implemented after Rockefeller pressured China to follow South Korea, Japan and India's policies in exchange for lifting diplomatic relations and sanctions.
Dumbest crackpot theory I've heard in a very long time.
What's next?
Rockefeller funded Pol Pot?

>>17417993
>populations have never contracted before
are you out of your fucking mind

>>17418056
You're thinking of curiosity pieces that were not, and cannot be, used to perform useful work.

>>17418093
I gave you a chart with the timeline of it worsening. Many countries will have an issue like that but basically none as bad as them given their abysmal family approach.

>>17418451
I asked for evidence, not stories.

>>17418620
A strawman so blatant it isn't worth response. Or, perhaps worse, you're not following the conversation in the slightest

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wow nice thread about the daodejing, guys

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>>17418775
lol shut up and let me bask in the condescending compassion the poor angry moron itt makes me feel

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Seemed like a philosophy used to keep the peasants subservient and in line.
It literally tells you not to seek education, not to seek a better life, not to try new things. Just keep your head down and mindlessly work.

>>17419148
how many philosophies do you know that promote revolution and chaos

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>>17419219
The only options aren't being a complete subservient slave and chaos, but even if it were the latter would be preferable.

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>>17419219
he's got a point. most philosophies aren't so cynical about this

Tao Te Ching is supposed to be a manual for running a small kingdom, not a guide to living a normal life. There's wisdom for sure, but the goal is to create rulers who can rule in a non-psychotic way. It never worked either, people get to those positions are dark triad up to their ears.

>>17419226
there is no greater power than to be a complete subservient slave to the dao

>>17419230
most philosophies are probably lying to themselves then

>>17419232
everyone should take care of properly running their small kingdom
as above so below