Is there any historical figure more bullshitted about than Stalin? Kotkin is the only mainstream historian that has done any decent work on him, yet even Kotkin's work is largely ignored for old Cold War propaganda and Khruschevite bullshit, and historians like Domenico Losurdo's work into the Soviet archives had to be fan translated because publishers like Verso refuse to touch it with a 100ft pole because Publishers are filled with butthurt Trots.(translated audiobook here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiA_2qYJneg&list=PL0-IkmzWbjoZcvcrr0CU0I8yqN4l9UPzl&index=2 )It's wild all the shit still said about Stalin, from the ""Holodomor"" to "he cried and shit his pants when Hitler invaded" despite the Soviet archives literally BTFO'ing all these narratives into dust in the 1990s. Turns out even the purges of the Red Army were largely justified and the correct position (even TIK of all people acknowledges this) and the Party purges were actually based largely on real subterfuge and espionage within the party itself.This isn't to say Stalin is a great guy, but it's wild that literally stating the actual, academic historical truth about the guy, that is backed by all the archival evidence, will get you basically made persona-non grata among pop-history types or attacked as a "tankie".Why does Stalin make people piss and shit their pants so much? People literally try pass him off as even worse than Nazi Germany and Hitler which is laughable to any extent considering Stalin's USSR was arguably far more humane than the British or French in their colonial holdings.
>>17415580I love this rat so muchMore people need to read, or at the very least, listen to Stephen Kotkin talk about StalinGuy's all over YouTube if anyone doesn't have time to read
>>17415580>troon freaking out because no one likes the 20th century mass murdering dictator he worships
>>17415768He's a fucking faggot. He keeps pushing back the date of his new book time after time while shilling for Ukraine. WRITE IT ALREADY YOU FUCK.
>>17415580>Kotkin is the only mainstream historian that has done any decent work on him, yet even Kotkin's work is largely ignored for old Cold War propaganda and Khruschevite bullshit ... This isn't to say Stalin is a great guyYeah sure but if you read Kotkin, Stalin comes across as an utterly ruthless, conspiratorially paranoid sociopath and that forced collectivization didn't actually work, it made agricultural production worse and starved around three million people to death, which did not bother Stalin at all, although Kotkin rejects the view that it was intentional genocide. But to a certain extent though, it looks to me like Stalin at the head of a state making war on the peasants as a class. And then Stalin basically murdered the entire generation of revolutionary Bolsheviks, civil war commanders, and military heroes, while creating a police state ruled by incompetent slugs who delivered bad information and ruled the population terror while also setting up the Red Army to get destroyed by the Wehrmacht in 1941. Seems bad.>Turns out even the purges of the Red Army were largely justified and the correct position (even TIK of all people acknowledges this) and the Party purges were actually based largely on real subterfuge and espionage within the party itself.I dunno but I'm thinking that I'm on the side of the people trying to overthrow Stalin for somebody else.
I mean, okay, during the war with the Nazis, I get that Stalin is the guy, so you've got to back up your guy. But was he really indispensable? There were a lot of Bolsheviks (who got killed, he murdered them) who could've run things. You can complain about Khruschevite bullshit but he was one of the slugs who rose up because of Stalin after he killed all of the based guys. They were also like "thank God the tyrant is dead" when he finally kicked the bucket and they tore down his statues, but that's just a fact. Although they probably wouldn't have said thank God because they were atheists.All the people who rose up after Stalin died who you hate owed their positions to Stalin. And then Stalinoids on the internet post cool pictures of him with other dudes, but they don't know who the other dudes are most of the time, and if it's a group picture taken before 1937, there's a solid chance at least half the people in the pic (like this one) were shot on his orders in 1937-1938. I guess some people are into that though. Imagine being in a left-wing group and a significant number of people in it join because they like that Stalin did that, and who want to shoot AT LEAST half the people in the room -- odds are that will probably include you. Because that's what happened.
stalin has the phenotype of mistrust
>>17415580That's not even what Stalin looked like
>>17415580how do you look like that and end up with picrelabsolutely gameless
>>17415580>Why does Stalin make people piss and shit their pants so much? People literally try pass him off as even worse than Nazi Germany and Hitler which is laughable to any extent considering Stalin's USSR was arguably far more humane than the British or French in their colonial holdings.I can't really explain it. It's honestly so retarded. You'll probably disagree with me but the lies extends to the Holohoax-tier death counts attributed to him. I get normies falling for this. But even /pol/troons, lolbertarians and other rightists (who rightfully mock the Holocaust), will tell you with a straight face that 600 septillion people died in the USSR. Because Stalin ate all the grain and his officials mismanagement everything because they were playing with their dicks or whatever. Yet somehow the USSR lasted for decades despite so many deaths and starvation. I think people really, really want to discredit Communism so they lie out their asses. Which makes me chuckle since you don't need to lie about it to think or believe that it's bad. It's like pretending to faint when someone farts so you can play up how bad the fart was. Just say it smells like shit and open the window. No need for all this embellishment.
>>17415580The most lied person in history was Napoleon Bonaparte.Common lies include:> he was cuck> he was short> he was tyrant> he was french> he was coward> he was muslim> he was antichrist> he was warmonger> he shot off sphinx's nose> he made deal with the devil
>>17416595a more fascinating example is maoist china during the cultural revolution, its commonly stated literally a gajillion people died during this period. Yet, somehow, this is also the period where a baby boom happened, food stabilized, GDP skyrockted, they were launching rockets in space and developed nukes, and they generally wrote about having things like child daycare in the workplace, three canteen meals a day at the workplace, and literacy skyrocketed afterwards
>>17416626Honestly convinced it was all just a scam by tradfags to trash the cultural revolution. If we could just toss traditions in the garbage, all our problems would vanish just like in Mao's China.
>>17416647Based. We westerners should all learn Mao Tse-Tung thought.
Bless Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn.Wumao/Glavset thread.
>>17415580>lying piece of shit is lied aboutpoetic justice
>>17416626>Not getting ass hurt about made up things and contributing an even better exampleCan I give you a kiss? Not on the lips, just a platonic one. Like those Italians do. I never meet or see people with a functioning brain. You're on point. I was shocked when I learnt about that. About China. Was lucky enough to have a fren with a good head on his shoulders.>>17416647>>17416674Based. Although I wish Mao didn't fuck what remained of chinese martial arts, unless that's also another lie i missed.
>>17415580>tankie apologism
The West loves it's butthurt Baltic/Ukrainian Fascist loser seething.The fact these freaks still are all through the Western foreign policy establishment, dragging the west into their retarded nationalist grudge politics is bad enough.
>>17416616Absolutely up there. Wild that British seethe really sets the entire narrative for who is arguably the most important historical figure of European Liberalism.
>>17415580The Sebag-Montefiore bios are sloppy jewish blowjobs to Christian genocide to the extent I'm convinced Mauricr Ephrussi is Stalin's real father
>>17416072>But was he really indispensable?After Sverdlov died, basically they put everyone in the role of running and organizing the party before Stalin and they all ate shit and sucked at it. Stalin for all his faults, was a master micromanager and organiser. Hence why General Secretary became the most important position in the party under him, because as secretary he literally organised everyone into an effective unit.Sverdlov and Stalin were really the only two good managers within the party at the time.Sverdlov would have probably been the leader of the USSR if he didn't die of spanish flu.Trotsky on Sverdlov>Sverdlov ... was truly beyond compare: confident, courageous, firm, resourceful – the best type of Bolshevik. It was precisely in those critical months that Lenin came to know and to appreciate Sverdlov. Time and again it happened that Vladimir Ilyich would pick up the phone in order to propose to Sverdlov a particular emergency measure and in most cases the answer he got was “Already.” This meant that the measure had already been adopted. We often made jokes on this topic, saying, “Well, in all likelihood, Sverdlov has it – already.The hilarious thing Trotsky saying all of this is that if you look at Sverdlov's actual actions, really Stalin is just Sverdlov mark II.
>>17417002>The Sebag-Montefiore bios are sloppy jewish blowjobs My bolshevik in Marx, Christianity (Judaism 2.0) IS a sloppy jewish blowjob but with pagan lipstick.
>>17415580I hate Stalin for being a commie but I have strong respect for him as a Russin nationalist (and yes I realise he was not Russian but he basically spent his entire career trying to restore the Russian Empire's borders and power, and according to him he even compared himself to the tsars).
>>17416616He was absolutely a wamonger and a miltary dictator but the rest are false, I agreeCome on guys, it's possible to have a middle ground view on Napoleon - he wasn't the devil but he wasn't a dindu nuffin good boy either
>>17416626>a more fascinating example is maoist china during the cultural revolution, its commonly stated literally a gajillion people died during this period.Part of that is because Mao haters often don't have the knowledge to make the difference between the cultural revolution and great leap forward, and think that the famine that happened in the GLF happened during the CR.
>>17417190Most people don't know shit about Chinese history in general. The Warlord era was 10000x worse than anything Mao did but it's only Mao presented as a bad guy with ridiculous death counts based on birth rates.Mao and Stalin are fascinating historical figures, but never get really any good histiography due to political reasons.
>>17415580You know why. Antisemitism.
>>17415580What the fuck you are you even babbling about; shit was happening during his rule and he is responsible for it whether he "knew" or he "didn't know".>""Holodomor""go fuck yourself>he cried and shit his pantshe withdrew from ruling the country>purges justifiedImprisonment might have been but not mass murder and torture>everybody is lying but this one guy tells all the truth and nothing but the truthmeds
The biggest issue is the sheer hypocrisy. Stalin's policies were largely not all that different than other major powers at the time. Churchill alone oversaw some of the largest and most brutal population transfers in history that led to millions upon millions of deaths. Yet this is a charge only laid at the USSR and Stalin.If you look at policies by the British, French or even Americans. When it comes to things like population transfers, treating minorities like shit and oopsie killing hundreds of thousands or millions of people. That crap was the norm for the 19th and 20th centuries.The Brits in particular love shoving entire population groups around. Look at Palestine today, how is Stalin transfers worse than that?
>>17417417THANK YOU. Neolibs love to inflate the corpse counts in both Communist and Fascist countries whilst they stacked bodies as well. The early 20th century was nuts.
>>17417417>Yet this is a charge only laid at the USSR and Stalin.Are you SURE you're not forgetting someone?
the answer
>>17417242>go fuck yourselfLiterally no evidence it happened and all modern archival evidence proves it didn't and that the Ukrainian seethe narrative is just pure butthurt.>he withdrew from ruling the countryArchives show this narrative was completely full of shit and made up by Khruschev entirely. Stalin was in Logistics and military basically 18 hours a day the minute Germany entered Soviet territory. I just 2 days of the Start of Babarossa he was able to literally evacuate hundreds of Soviet factories to the East and rally the Red Army. Stalin's crushing of the Blitzkrieg at Smolensk was so shocking it made Japanese observers piss and shit their pants, abandon all meaningful support of Hitler and move south instead. On top of this British and American generals all said Stalin was by far the greatest war leader of WW2 and a phenomenal general.>Imprisonment might have been but not mass murder and tortureUnique circumstances. The USSR was literally being infiltrated by massive scale fifth columns who were engaging in huge amounts of sabotage, espionage and wrecking. Even Beria turned out was on British payroll. Again, this also isn't out of the norm for the 20th century. Death Penalty for treason was the complete norm up until like the 80s.>everybody is lying but this one guy tells all the truth and nothing but the truthWestern Sovietography is pretty much all brazen propaganda lies based on the pissing and seething of Balts, British and Ukrainians. The Soviet archives opening in the 1990s btfo'ed pretty much all the mainsteam soviet narratives, which is why they are largely completely ignored outside of Russian language sources.
>>17417417It's often been said that the USSR's "major crime" in the eyes of the Western Establishment was "colonialism" in Europe rather on the Global South.Not that what the USSR did was anything like Western Colonialism at all, but if you squint your eyes and act as a complete retard and ignore that Western Colonialism was entirely extractive and treated colonial subjects as little more than slaves and USSR literally ended up subsidising and rebuilding all of Eastern Europe and gave everyone universal rights, it could look something like it.
>>17418369All those Ukrainians and Balts have been butthurt seething about what exactly? Becoming paradise on Earth?You will never be a woman btw.
>>17417417>The biggest issue is the sheer hypocrisy. Stalin's policies were largely not all that different than other major powers at the time. The Irish famine in the 19th century was really apocalyptic as well. Traveling through Ireland at the time would've probably looked like some of the worst famine-stricken areas of Ukraine during forced collectivization. This does lead me to conclude that the transition to modernity, industrialization, etc. was an apocalyptic event, and to that extent Stalin was "worse" it was insofar that the time period in which this event occurred in the USSR was compressed. >>17418369>Unique circumstances ... Death Penalty for treason was the complete norm up until like the 80s.I feel you're talking above yourself a little bit and treating this like how a lot of teenagers post on 4chan when they try to sound smart, which is to assert a lot of things but not actually say anything of substance. We're talking about bloody repression directed at millions of Soviet citizens and deaths in the hundreds of thousands, including practically the entire generation of revolutionary Bolsheviks in drumhead trials (we're talking about the people who led the October Revolution being murdered en masse). For example, let's say you are a communist and carry a card that says you're a member of the Communist Party and there's a revolution and your party comes to power, if history repeated itself like this, there's a very strong possibility that neo-Cyber-Stalin would kill you, because it didn't matter if you were actually part of a conspiracy or not. That's just something Stalinoids say. That does not strike me as rational. It seems highly abnormal. I suppose though that history does not follow a rational process.
>>17417143Interesting perspective. Soviet borders were pretty big. Could you go into more detail about this? Not often you see russian nationalists having strong respect for Stalin. Unless I'm mistaken.
>>17418995NTA but its more common than you think
>>17418995>Not often you see russian nationalists having strong respect for StalinThe ineptitude of his successors makes people cynical and resentful of them for enacting deStalinization and then shitting the bed anyway. Most people who lived through his reign of terror are senile as well, so it's easier to be a revisionist. A lot of them don't even really read into him as an individual either. He was simply the man I charge when the USSR struck fear into westerners. Therefore, he is le good.t. visited and spoke to a lot of people there in the 2000s.
>>17418659Balts are under the impression they would have been first world countries on the level of France, The US if it wasn't for the USSR. This is despite Lithuanian independent state imploding into mass genocidal Fascism almost immediately and the entire region functionally being massively subsidied by the Russian empire and USSR and treated as an extremely privileged Potemkin village.Ukrainians are just incredibly delusional to unreasonable levels. Typical Fascist blood and soil idiocy based on mythological past despite their entire culture is only borderline above Gypsies in corruption, crime, trashiness and anyone can attest to that who lives in Eastern Europe (even in Baltics it's common sense to never, ever let Ukrainians do any work for you because they will scam your ass and steal your shit. Ukrainian embassy in Lithuania literally runs phone and chargeback scams out of it. Ukrainians prostituting their wives is seen as completely normal behavior as well.).Typical again that they would be France tier especially due to breadbasket status, despite their country and culture is a complete cluster fuck and their entire national identity is largely just manufactured in the late 19th century/20th century from Galician/Ruthenian grudge politics which only constitutes like 10% of Ukraine itself or it's population.Eastern Euros are completely delusional in general when it comes to their nationalism. Pure seething narcissistic victim complexes for the fact their failures are largely their own and cultural.
