>>17423477
>>>/x/39613199

>>17423477
Basically if you're currently alive it means God has already shown you mercy and thus religion is not necesarry. Just one of the many logical paradoxes that comes with being religious if you've spent more than 5 minutes thinking about it

>>17423477
>Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why has thou made me thus?

>>17423477
Yes, your limited life is a gift and it’s all you could ever be on your own.

Belief in Christ is belief in a loving god who would die for us which is the only way our retarded asses are ever seeing an eternal existence

>>17423486
>babble says you're poopoopeepee, so you must stop asking questions!
Do people really fall for this crap, or do they only post these passages to own the libs?

>>17423502
You can't even begin to reason without presupposing the existence of God.

>>17423477
it's literally magic thinking

>>17423503
yes you can retard

>>17423503
Ah so it's the latter. I thought so.

>>17423498
>Belief in Christ is belief in a loving god who would die for us
How does a magic jew in the sky that can't be harmed die for you?

>>17423508
How can you make an objective claim? How do you know anything?

>>17423503
Why can't I reason without a jew in the sky?

>>17423515
revelation by SATAN

>>17423515
How does the jew in the sky know anything?

>>17423517
https://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

>>17423498
This is what I don't get, why is it necessary for us to believe in him? Why can't he just force us or at least try to sit us down and explain?
Like, we are already forced into existence and suffering. And parents sometimes take their child from the hand and command them.

I know we can't change God's ways. Is just that there is something I'm not seeing.

>>17423518
Satan is a finite being lacking omniscience.

>>17423515
it doesn't matter retard, reality is regardless of what you want it to be

>>17423531
You can't even prove that you're not a brain in a vat under your secular materialist worldview.

>>17423534
literally does not matter, you're still under the rules of reality retard

>>17423524
Why can't you reason without resorting to posting links without further context?

>>17423536
You already believe in God anyway, but suppress that because you love sin more than life.

>>17423539
Does absolute truth exist?
>Yes
>No
>Don't know

>>17423534
You can't either. You're stuck within the same limitations of the senses like everybody else and just pretend you aren't because muh God did it. Stop watching orthobro larpers please

>>17423541
You're an atheist anon. You don't believe in the Hindu Gods

>>17423546
Eastern "Orthodoxy" is an idolatrous false religion.
>>17423547
No Hindu god ever rose from the dead in recorded history.

>>17423544
If a claim is reliably repeatable and verified with independent evidence then that would be an objective truth for all intents and purposes.

>>17423550
>No Hindu god ever rose from the dead in recorded history.
Doesn't matter. You are an atheist towards the Hindu gods. Everyone is an atheist towards at least one god anon.

>>17423550
Okay, great, you're using an even shittier version of TAG then they do, then. Embarrassing!

>>17423551
Is logic universal and unchanging?

>>17423558
On a fundamental level I would argue that logic is unchanging, this can be partially demonstrated with formal fallacy theory

>>17423563
Is logic material or immaterial?

>there are objective truths
Okay
>therefore the source of objective truth is an intelligent being
Reaching but whatever
>and that intelligent being is a Jew from 2000 years ago
Full retard

>>17423564
I don't believe logic is metaphysical since if it were it would have no bearing on our currently reality, so I would argue logic is material in nature.

>>17423572
Does matter change?

>>17423564
>>17423558
>>17423544
>>17423580
What are you trying to do anon? Are you seriously trying to give the idea of God some logical basis? That is literaly antithetical to religion. If God could be proven through logic and logic alone then having faith in him would not be necesarry. If we could reliably test and prove the existence of God then he would not be a religious idea anymore, he would just be a scientific fact. You are completely missing the plot

>>17423586
Everyone inherently knows God exists but God hardens the hearts of the non-elect so that they will be condemned.

>>17423601
>God hardens the hearts of the non-elect so that they will be condemned
sadistic and based

>>17423601
Everyone on the planet is born an implicit atheist. And God would have no need to "harden the hearts of the non-elect so that they will be condemned." because God literally creates the means. It's insane to me that you assert God is all-powerful but then cherrypick whenever he is somehow subject to some arbitrary rules.

>>17423608
Infants know that God exists.

>>17423609
No they really don't

>>17423609
>Infants know that God exists.
So religion is not necesarry and neither is evangelism, since we're all just born knowing God exists apparently, so we don't need to spread the word of God since we already know it.
Oh but I know what you're going to say, "We're born knowing God exists but we don't know who the right God is or what they want from us"
Yeah it's pretty wild to me that a so-called "intelligent creator" would conveniently leave those parts out but I guess he wants to put people through a test that he already knows the outcome of since he's also all-knowing

>>17423612
>For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.
Proud rebel sinners have no basis for rejecting their God.
>>17423624
The elect will inevitably be led to the gospel; we evangelize because there is a duty to preach to all men, even the non-elect.

>>17423630
Stop chewing with your mouth full you're going to spill out your word salad

Would you still worship God if there was no heaven or hell? God still exists in this scenario, but heaven and hell do not. You simply go off to Sheol and have a final death at the end of your life.

>>17423525
Because to believe in a loving god is what should give you the strength to move in the face of something like a halting problem. Faith is the skill needed to navigate an eternal existence as a limited being, he is not being coy, you NEED to learn how to believe something

Me and you are worse than Lucifer. If we had been born in heaven we would have fucked up way worse and the way existence is the more aware of how wrong you are the more pain you feel lying to yourself. Me and you are of a shape where our healthy entrance into existence looks like this. Don’t begrudge this fact, be happy you’re not a faggy angel and you could find eternal goodness from a place of ignorance.

>>17423514
God goes through change to take part in limited creation. He suffers in the only truly meaningless way and it is for us, an earthly death is a pale imitation of the sacrifice god makes to give you a pathway into eternal existence

>>17423637
It's not my choice. God determines every action. Mankind does not have a free will. In a moral universe, there is only will: God's.

>>17423650
You did not answer my question

Would you still worship God if there was no heaven or hell? Yes or no answers only.

>>17423637
The answer every Christian would give is that if god didn’t want them then they don’t want themselves. Now if your saying god just doesn’t want anyone to exist eternally alongside him? That’s not how a loving god behaves and it is self evident god is loving from the nature of existence

>>17423650
Don’t succumb to psychosis. You are a rational agent in this world, endowed by your creator with agency

>>17423657
It is entirely up to God. I have assurance that I am one of His elect so presuming that was the only change I would still be among His people and worship God.

>>17423649
>Faith is the skill needed to navigate an eternal existence as a limited being
Not really, you can just accept reality for what it is and recognize the idea that our limited time we have is exactly what gives life meaning to begin with. You don't even need to be an "atheist" to accept this because God could still be a metaphysical creator but to think he is an intelligent creator that favors humans is laughable and contradictory to reality.

>>17423664
Any preacher who does not teach the gospel, which necessarily includes the doctrines of grace, is a lying, hell-bound false prophet (Gal. 6:7).

>pressup gets btfo
>starts shitting himself
kek every single time

>>17423668
You did not answer my question

Would you still worship God if there was no heaven or hell? Yes or no answers only.
This is a hypothetical question. There is no reason why you should not be able to answer this
>>17423659
I am demonstrating a fact that you and the other person do not want to face
You do not give a shit about God, if you did then you would worship him regardless if there was a heaven or hell. You are simply afraid of death.

>>17423669
Okay so you are literally an idiot.

Yes, faith is a requirement for a limited being to navigate eternal existence without stagnating or degenerating. It isn’t up for debate, this is standard game theory.

You are genuinely pathetic brother. You have been gifted all that it means to be a man and you reject the loving nature of the existence that gave it to you. What that means is you have no way to truly appreciate your friend, your family or even yourself. Genuinely sad man. I’ll let you in on a secret, appreciation is one of those necessary skills as well

>>17423677
I already answered your question in the affirmative.

>>17423684
fuck off retard go deny dna doesn't store information in its sequence again

>>17423686
So you would still worship God even if there was no afterlife? And if so then why?

>>17423671
God does not say you are not responsible for your actions faggot. Your rejection of your free will by pretending it’s all on god is just as bad as the fedora fags and it’s where their psychosis began in the western world

>>17423692
>Your rejection of your free will
?

>>17423690
Assuming no other changes, God would still elect a people to be justified and sanctified through His Son, which gives them the grace to overcome a fallen nature and acknowledge God as the ultimate sovereign, infinitely deserving of praise.
>>17423692
You are responsible for the sins God predestined you to commit. Vessels of wrath love their sin. It's not like God forces them to sin.

>>17423677
I just said that no Christian wants themselves if god doesn’t want them? Do you understand what that means? It definitely doesn’t mean they would hate god without heaven or hell and it speaks that true heaven is being given the opportunity to have a relationship with god. You are a brainlet who thought you said something and are made I gave the catechism so quickly
>>17423689
lol now that you just said that I got the okay to hurt your feelings some more, how should I destroy your vision of self today?

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>>17423699
>sins God predestined you to commit
>It's not like God forces them to sin.

>>17423699
I respect your conviction regardless if it makes any particular sense. So you would argue that religion to you is closer to a social and moral framework correct?

>>17423703
>It definitely doesn’t mean they would hate god without heaven or hell
Nobody is talking about "hating god" because nobody here is the edgy atheist that you have inside of your head. The question was very simply. Would you still worship God, if there was no afterlife? If your answer is simply "yes" because to you it's more about having a personal relationship with God while you are still alive then I will gladly accept that answer.

>>17423706
>God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.
>>17423710
Religion is about obedience to the God who created everything and issues commandments. A small remnant of humanity have been given the grace to overcome their disposition to sin and obey God.

>>17423726
Namefag cannot give a concise answer, she suffers from schizophasia.

>>17423698
Read>>17423650 which is who this thread of conversation was talking too

>>17423699
No, your flaws are predestined by your limited, fallen state. Gods predestination is to be aware of the entirety of our capacity and to know how to interact with us in a way where we don’t completely fuck it up without him obliterating us.

Your flaws are your own and any language that dances around that fact is evil. Even more evil is to pretend words meant to describe gods power somehow mean it’s not your fault

>>17423731
>Read
How can you reject a gift from G*d ? Your post makes no sense, it's not like you can choose or discard it. You either have free will, or you don't.

>>17423726
I’m giving you the standard Christian understanding. You seem to have gotten the idea I was trying to get across perfectly as well but don’t try to pretend it’s an opinion unique to me
>>17423737
You ever heard of how Lucifer loses his ability to reason from lying to himself so much I’m Dante’s inferno? That’s how you reject a gift from god

You have free will and the principal ability in that is to choose god or go psychotic

>>17423731
>has no understanding of the most basic Reformed doctrines

>>17423748
>literal fanfiction
???

>>17423764
My guy, denominations come AFTER you present your theology round here.

What that means is if you can’t explain the theology or why it’s right? don’t pretend to smack people down with something that probably doesn’t even mean what you think it means

>>17423765
My god the brainlets here. Okay well the point still stands? You lie to yourself until you don’t know the difference between reality and your own delusions.

>>17423779
God has chosen to condemn you to Hell for all eternity. It is His absolute right to do with the clay of man as He sees fit and you have no grounds to complain.

>>17423785
No it doesn't stand, you're basing your "argument" on fanfiction. And this is granting it's an argument at all.

>>17423792
Yes? And he is loving and fair so I trust him completely?

What your really trying to ask is would I worship a capricious and evil god? No I wouldn’t worship azathoth and thankfully that’s not the nature of existence

>>17423796
>blasphemer will only worship a peanuts Arminian "god" of his own imagination

>>17423794
No im basing it on psychology. People lose their agency all the time succumbing to delusions? People pick up maladaptive behaviors that they excuse for so long that it kills them?

their are plenty of ways to reject a gift from god and I’m curious why you think it’s somehow impossible?

>>17423800
No? I worship the god that gave us free will? The being who chose to take part in limited creation and all the suffering that entails. The limitless being. And you know who that looks like? The god of the Bible

>>17423805
What the fuck are you talking about. The question is how is it even possible to reject a gift from G*d.

>>17423847
Because you have free will? Whose principle ability is to accept gods love or reject truth and lose your agency in psychosis due to willful ignorance

>>17423850
So you cannot reject it, right.

>>17423850
Free will is the belief that something comes from nothing. That decisions are uncaused and operate outside all known laws and reason.

There's no proven source of free will nor can it's mechanism be located or observed.

>>17423477
I believe in Christ because He has given me enough reasons to believe in Him. Whether I am saved or not, is up to Christ.

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>>17423522
>the jew in the sky
you (on the right) are blinded and cannot see past your nose

>>17423851
Yes you can? You can kill yourself right now, walk up to god and tell him you don’t want to exist. You could listen to his spiel about how amazing life is and endure feeling all that you would lose and if you really wanted to go through with it he would let you. (You could also just change your mind, endure the pain of realizing what you had done in killing yourself and begin your eternal relationship with god)

You could also do it slowly like the anons here. Fetishizing the idea that nothing is real and nothing matters until you reach a point where you CANT believe your eyes when god reveals himself to you. Laughing as if in a dream when god tries to coax you into reality or screaming in terror as you believe existence to be evil and seducing, finally retreating into nothingness when he tries suffering to wake you up.

Like I said there is a multiplicity but yes, you can be willfully ignorant of your own free will

>>17423856
Well that’s just false? Do you know what symmetry is? Free will is just the breaking of a perfectly balanced state (which is funny cause that’s the way our universe breaks determinism)

>>17423879
prove me god is real. You don't prove anything Brazil.

>>17423894
You exist brother, this is really happening right now and that’s a truly beautiful thing

>>17423897
still don't prove anything shit god is real. Why you need god to be existence. If you belive god is real. Christian is not real.

>>17423899
Can we agree on a loving god? I found that before I found Christianity

>>17423902
no if he is loving god he will make us belive him in bible. but he appove slavery so god is not real.

>>17423909
lol ima use the circumcision analogy again. His commands when dealing with a bunch of animals in humanity says more about us then him, it is in our nature to want slavery just like it is in our nature to want kings. God doesn’t want these things for us but he knows we are limited and will fuck up so he works with us as best we let him as opposed to him just expanding into us

>>17423916
no he say you beat the slave anything you want unless his teeth or some shit blood or they are dead. so its not real. Bro stop coping.

>>17423916
just add slave banning in commandement but god don't do it. It mean christian is not real. God is man mande religion.

>>17423916
>circumcision analogy again
paul do that.

>>17423477
Saved how?
Saved from what?
these questions are the ones Christians get wrong every time even when they think they know the answers

>>17423921
The alternative to slaves during that time was mass killing. Not as a matter of sport but of survival. I want you to understand this, there was a time man killed man for his sustenance (not literal cannibalism tho sometimes) and they were as blameless as the tiger. Slavery was a step out of that

>>17423928
Saved from yourself by god giving you the tools to thrive in eternal existence

>>17423931
no enough cope to make your religion true. that's your imagination. Your god is not real accept that. God don't care the fucking first step of humanism or what. It is a law of jew people. Who creat religion monotheist to make people obey. So your god is not real. Accept that.

>>17423934
>be enuch
>don't washing your hand
>sell all your fucking money to be true christian
bro stop.

>>17423937
The fact you can’t even take me at my word on what I worship means I have you scared man, you know the process has already started In you

>>17423941
bro you can belive your god or not. But if you say christian god is loving is a joke for me bro. I can belive a god is existence like spinoza. But come on bro. Just read the bible. It's the best achievement of jew people. That make them surviving and have their indentity. But you belive that as the fucking word of god. I cannot belive that.

>>17423477
That's because you confuse Christ with Jesus. See, Jesus became Christ before he died, but he wasn't born Christ. To become Christ is the goal of every human being. You can realize Christ in this lifetime if you will, but most people will continue trapped in the cycle of birth and death for a few more lives.

Nobody told you that before, right? Yeah. That's because they're not even aware of the goal of life. And it doesn't matter if you warn the atheists or not, they will simply not believe.

>>17424642
1.what is salvation? Salvation from what?
2.if we are already saved, how can we reject salvation? We don't have will over God. A child can't overcome the will of his father, at most it can make a tantrum. But at the end of the day, the father does what he wills over the kid. And what he wills is love and what is best for the child.
3.the consequences of salvation, are we supposed to experience them in this live or the next? Im already saved but I also keep sinning. Is not that even I want to sun but that I can't avoid it in this life, by my own nature. Everybody sins.

I read a lot of times that if you believe in Jesus, you stop sinning, which means that if you have sinned again, it means you don't believe in Christ hard enough, which means you aren't saved.
That seems like Job's bullshit all over again.

>>17423946
bro for real bro,, on god bro no cap dude
If god is real why children cancer bro, why do we have to shit and piss, why bro

>>17424642
>See, Jesus became Christ before he died, but he wasn't born Christ. To become Christ is the goal of every human being. You can realize Christ in this lifetime if you will
I'm orthodox, but I believe in this completely. This is medieval mysticism 100%
Read meister eckhart works, he was almost excomunicated, but he died before the court judged exactly on these charges. You will only find this precise philosophy in catholic writings

As someone genuinely trying to believe in Christ, this thread is breaking my brain. I can't even tell who is spreaking truth or not. What even is truth anymore. Nothing makes sense right now. God help me.

>>17424665
>I read a lot of times that if you believe in Jesus, you stop sinning, which means that if you have sinned again, it means you don't believe in Christ hard enough, which means you aren't saved.
>That seems like Job's bullshit all over again.
Paul disagrees and seems to view it as a struggle between or mind and spirit and our sinful flesh.
>For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
>21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:14-26

>>17423477
it says so in the jewish book

>>17425602
Im also like that anon. Have faith in Jesus.

>>17423518
>Have a revelation.
>Satan starts arguing with you about it.

>>17426064
>have a revelation
>yhwh starts arguing with you about it.
literally happened in the bible btw :^)

>>17423946
>>17425485

Grok,
present an argument against God in ebonics:

A'ight, check it:

First off, if God real, why we got so much sufferin'? You look around, see folks starvin', wars poppin' off, and diseases takin' lives. If there's a God up there, why He ain't steppin' in?

Then, you got all these different religions, everybody claimin' they got the truth. But if God so clear, why ain't there just one way, one book, one truth? It's like everybody got they own version, and that don't make no sense if there's supposed to be one God.

And science, man, science be showin' us how the world work without needin' no deity. We got explanations for the universe, for life, for how we got here, all based on facts and evidence, not just faith. Evolution, big bang, all that - it's more logical than some dude in the sky makin' everything.

Also, think 'bout the bad stuff people do in God's name. Wars, hate crimes, oppression - all justified by "God said so." If God was about love and peace, why His name get used for so much evil?

Lastly, the whole concept of God kinda seem like somethin' humans made up to explain what they couldn't understand back in the day. Now we know more, but the idea just sticks 'cause it's comforting to think there's someone watchin' out for us. But comfort don't make it real.

So, I'm sayin', maybe it's time we stop waitin' for some divine intervention and start takin' responsibility for our own world, our own lives, 'cause if there ain't no God, we all we got.

>>17423515
>I don't know that a rock is a rock without 2000 year old jewish revenge fantasies existing
Lmao seems like a you problem bozo, we inspect reality in this bitch

>>17423477
>I don't quite get why you have to believe in Christ to be saved.
It doesn't have to be literal. Jesus is love so just believe in love itself and that will be enough.
>We are forced into existing so it is not like we had consent or a belief in the first place.
No one is forced into life, our souls chose this, our mortal bodies just can't remember our lives as souls.
>To get alive in the first place we don't need to believe but to continue living we do need it?
The reason why we are here is because our souls know of God and they want to experience his creation of Earth and humanity.

>>17427553
So we are already saved and we can't reject it right? Doesn't mean we have full passes to act like degenerates animals, but it is a relief

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REMINDER: JEWS control the world and have mystical powers by the worship of the Devil.
CHRISTIANS barely control their sphincters while worshipping a god no less.

Make of that what you want.

>>17425645
Yahweh invented Satan and allowed Satan to rape in Eden.

>>17423586
Anon are you seriously saying this without recognizing that Christianity has schools of philosophy and logic underpinning its dogmas and theology? Your statement may apply to other religions, but not Orthodox Christianity, which has never been disproven in the arena of debate.
>If God could be proven through logic and logic alone then having faith in him would not be necesarry. If we could reliably test and prove the existence of God then he would not be a religious idea anymore, he would just be a scientific fact. You are completely missing the plot
It's you who are missing the point of Christ, Who makes Christianity distinct from every other religion. Logic? Scientific fact? GOD HIMSELF appeared in front of people and performed miracles. The evidence of Him is not so much found in the Bible, as it is the advent of His coming to Earth. His closest friends loved Him but most abandoned Him and didn't understand Him until Pentacost (after Christ left Earth), and despite all the proof in front of their eyes, the Pharisees and their supporters elected to KILL HIM. As this >>17423601 anon correctly states. PROOF is not ultimately what gets a hardened person to believe in God, a burning heart brings people to have faith (trust) in God more than anything else.

>>17428462
I'd instantly convert to Christianity if I had not even proof, but simply evidence that would be up to my epistemic standards. I like the religion quite a lot, I just don't think that it's true.

>>17428462
My problem is that I don't understand sin. Sin is failing to follow God's law. What is God's law? Everyone I see is bullshitting though this one. Jesus resumes it as "love God before all and love others". But what is love? If I assert myself towards some friends because they are lying about an issue, am I sinning because I'm creating discomfort and failing to love others or am I sinning because I decide not to stand for truth and failing towards God because I want to not create discomfort among my peers?

What is loving? Loving is not always doing what the other wants but I can also fuck up loving. Can you even force love? I don't love everyone, how do I force myself to love others?

In the end I suppose I have to truth Jesus and believe everything will be ok and that he is the master after all. It's just that by the moment I'm just this, a piece of meat and bones, very, very confused.

I hope Christ is loving and I hope to see him one day. How can I ever understand even the tiniest thing about you lord. Please don't desert me.

>>17423649
>God goes through change
I think this is heresy

>>17423477
you dont need him for an eternal existance
you'll get one in paradise or in fire whatever you choose to do

>>17423609
Correct.

>>17429265
What would you consider evidence

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>>17423477
Because God is someone who forgives, and his pity goes beyond death and suffering, he went into the darkest pits of hell for you and came out victorious.

>>17423879
>>17423882
>>17423897
>>17423902
This is a bot, add its name to your 4chanX filter.

Because he is literally time.
One of the subversions used against us by Hollywood and media is the subversion of time. And if they’re not pinning negativity to it nobody is reveling that from second to second is the evidence of his sacrifice for us and our protection from utter chaos which is not far. So you believe, because of temptations, one of which to distort time, into thinking time was the devil all along, and now you’ve escaped this tedious time, by doing whatever and now you think you’re in heaven when you’re in hell. And there’s many pitfalls there. And then you start playing around before you get further and further and find out it’s eternity.
But everything comes to an end because there’s time after all. There’s no where that you can’t get his partnership and the blessing that he made you forget about eternity.

>>17425602
Just think for yourself. Critical thinking is always the way.