Why do protestants view icon veneration as idol worship?
It actually has multiple origins . One was trying to disrupt the way people were taught religion in Europe. Iconography were often used as theological teaching tools and destroying it would prevent people from being taught differently from them.Another was that it was a byproduct of trying to go around Patristic sources. Basically, later phases of the reformation such as the radical reformation had to create a new hermeneutic to justify their existence unlike the magisterial reformers. This lead to them developing literalism as a hermeneutic in Christianity over time and rejecting Icons.
>>17429094Pelikan is a convert to eastern orthodoxy
alot of comes to to aestheticsI grew up in a lutheran church, we had a statute of Martin Luther, we had images of Martin Luther, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, MLK Jr., Martin Niemöller, that one Japanese conscientious objector and Mother Teresa and a giant statute of Jesus Christ on the cross, yet nobody accuses us of idol worship.
>>17429097He did. He was an academic though and Titus Street Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Yale. Pic is of a more recent book if you want to hear it from someone else. This one will break it down group by group at even a local level.
Because it is.Veneration is synonymous with worship.You're not supposed to 'venerate' icons because they aren't God. They don't represent God. They are human contrivances meant to represent human ideas.When you 'venerate' an icon, you are not paying homage. You are worshiping a block of wood, a piece of paper or a statue. These things take you away from God because they prevent you from having truth faith. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. What good does 'venerating' a statue of God do? It is a distraction and nothing more.
>>17429100Lutherans are a part of the magisterial reformation though so they would have things like that. Some Lutherans did switch to Iconoclasm but this was usually under pressure of the radical reformers. Iconoclasm often had a political role and often was test to enter the public world especially in the English speaking world. Pic related.
>>17429104Puritans were pretty based. I think their understanding of the Scripture exceeds many.
>>17429103Historical Christians including Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and so on don't see icons in that way.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRFP4Yx6qXwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmqODVwUQSk
>>17429104I was raised Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA).When we would say the Lord's Prayer there was a part where we said communion with the Catholic Church.
>>17429107The "earliest" church didn't and couldn't have icons. Faith comes from hearing the Gospel preached.
>>17429109It is debatable. Now a days, we tend to identify their origins in Syriac Christianity. However, they mainly played a liturgical roel rather than a strictly devotional purpose. We can still see some of that in preserved in Oriental Orthodox Christian practice and in some cases of Eastern Orthodox in the Middle East.
>>17429114The liturgical view saw Icons as part of a later relationship to the infusion or working with God and grace. However, a later more developed theological view occurred. This view includes a Christological element. This means that Icons are represented because God became Incarnated. In this view, Iconoclasm has a very different meaning and it is also this view that orthodox Islam will develop for example as would certain gnostic religions. An example of a developed version can be seen in the 7th Ecumenical Council.
>>17429119One other theory is that early uses of Icons was related to early Christian understanding of Second Temple Judaism. For example, the understanding of the images of the Ark of the Covenant and the typology of Saints and the Church which was a common patristic view.
>>17429114>Now a days, we tend to identify their origins in Syriac Christianitysays who?
>>17429103>You are worshiping a block of wood, a piece of paper or a statue.no retard. To 'worship' an idol is to say "This idol is my God, or has my God inside of it"No one looks at a picture of a saint and says "The saint's spirit is stored in this picture therefore we must worship it"That's the key difference between venerating icons and idolatry, that protestards always forget.>Psalm 115:4-8Their idols are silver and gold,the work of human hands.They have mouths, but do not speak;eyes, but do not see.They have ears, but do not hear;noses, but do not smell.They have hands, but do not feel;feet, but do not walk;and they do not make a sound in their throat.Those who make them become like them;so do all who trust in them.
>>17429100The ELCA is utterly Satanic
Bump
>protties are mentally challenged and cannot comprehend concepts outside their frame of referenceliterally autism the religion
>>17429089While the trinity is true, the resurrected body of God (which is his people that do his will in his name) does not require intercession with itself. Intercession prayer was introduced so that those outside the grace of God could petition his body with their requests. It is an archaic holdover from a time when the church was racial and still true to the mission of the Son to save his people from death.
>>17429146Imagine the people in that picture claiming >nah bro we're VENERATING the bull not worshiping it!
>>17429089If it looks like a duck..
>>17430025They actually called the calf their God.
>>17429089Because they don’t have a joke view of church history.
>>17430064There's not much of a distinction between >This golden calf is my godand>This golden calf is a representation of my godYou're still kneeling before the statue, offering prayers to the statue and making alms to the statue. The object is receiving your adoration, not the thing you are supposed to worship.
>>17431150These icons are symbolic depictions of their collective identity, which is the literal god father of their blood tribe. The people are the earthly embodiment of their deity who brought their people into being through sexual union between divinity and the earthly. That is the old religion, every old religion. These tribes all had their own god of their blood, but they shared the same archetypal structure. You find it in greece, egypt, mesopotamia, norse, everywhere that the people of the fall endured through the flood.
>>17429106>Puritans were pretty based.>Throwing acid on your genitals is based.Do you edgy highschool tradtards ever get tired of oozing liquid shit out of your mouth and pretending you’re smart?>Hurr, le heckin’ based Puritans were so trad, bro. I wouldn’t be an incel if I was born a Puritan.You would have hung yourself in the barn after the 20th time your dad beat the shit out of you and whipped your balls for masturbating. Being a Puritan fucking sucked. Basically Sharia Islam for whites.Somehow, porn addict incels have this Puritan fantasy where they’re state-mandated a TradWife instead of lobotomized for being a masturbating pervert.
>>17431184Many of the founding fathers were, or were influenced by, the Puritans.
No, they were not. They mainly deists. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l93J0qPTjCI
>>17431225>Many of the founding fathers were, or were influenced by, the Puritans.Non-sequitur.Prove to me the Puritans were based. Record yourself throwing acid on your cock and balls. Post here with timestamp.
>>17429089Because it is.
>>17431238your entire post was a non-sequitur. Prove to me that the majority of puritans threw acid on their children, and prove to me their arguments from scripture are unsound.>inb4 brings up Salem witch trials or something.
It is. You can dress it up however you like, it still violates God's commandment about graven images.
>>17431236The founding fathers were deists because they were aristocratic intellectuals. The vast majority of Americans were protestant Christians.
>>17431225Lol no. Puritans had been over 100 years extinct in the colonies by the time the the revolution occurred. Also, the term "puritan" is basically a slur that applied to various uptight extreme Calvinist sects that emerged in England at the time. The ones who came over to America were just one Calvinist group among several in England to have the label "puritan" applied to them, mockingly, by other Protestants who found them obnoxiously holier-than-thou.So the "puritan legacy" you hear so much about in America is really more like the legacy of good old fashioned English prudishness with religious window dressing. Oh sure, they made a big deal about living "religiously", but it just so happened that living religiously coincided with extremely rigid social rules that appealed to their native English sexual repression.
>>17431245Technically speaking, there was not a single group called Puritans. Rather, they were the called the Protestant nonconformists. They just shared common goal of reforming the Church of England. They tended to be Calvinists and were theological determinists. Other than that they had all sorts of beliefs, some believed were millennialists, some amillenalists etc.. Some have even argued they were really more of a political movement. They were violent and mainly suppressed people, destroyed historical sites, and tried to control education like during the Interregnum. They banned theatre, dancing, and sought to prevent people from eating pies for religious reasons they made up. They constantly fought with and got defeated by Indigenous people much to the annoyance of England. Wars like Pequot War and King Philip’s War were largely their fault.
>>17431264>LolImmediate tell that we are dealing with a midwit who is in way over its head. Carry on.>Puritans had been over 100 years extinct in the colonies by the time the the revolution occurred.So explain how Harriet Beecher Stowe was writing about her lived experience in Puritan culture almost 100 years after the revolution? You haven't even done the most basic homework.
>Be >>17431264>See >>17431267>Frantically crack open wikipedia and try to find a debunk
The Puritans had an actual magical world view and were really bad at defending themselves because they often were highly anti-intellectual. A lot of elements associated with US conspiratorial thinking and common motifs have origins with them. The idea of Jesuits as being somehow super smart and intelligent actually arose because the Purtians were very very inept at their knowledge of history and philosophy. Calvinists elsewhere and Luttherans in continental Europe were quick to point this out too. Some of their belief in magic and demons and so on which other European Christians did not have arose as part of a way to justify their shortcomings. Pic is of a book that captures these narratives.
>>17429107Then they were clearly lost.The command to avoid idolatry is to prevent people from putting their faith in physical, temporary images. God is love, and worshiping him is the manifestation of that love. I see Catholics, Orthodox etc pray to icons of Jesus all the time. But that is not Jesus, it is an icon. So why are they praying to it?You need to focus on manifesting God into your heart via your love for him, not turning your eyes to golden idols.
>>17431339In Orthodox and Catholic theology, praying before icons is not worship of the image itself but veneration, as the honor given to the icon passes to the person or reality it represents. The practice is rooted in the Incarnation, as God taking human form in Christ sanctifies the material world and allows physical representations to point to spiritual truths. This theology was affirmed at the Second Council of Nicaea (787), which distinguished veneration of icons from adoration, reserved for God alone.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGcygfkqT8g
>>17431344>In Orthodox and Catholic theology, praying before icons is not worship of the image itself but veneration, as the honor given to the icon passes to the person or reality it represents.Great! That isn't going to save them, nor turn down the flames of Hell one degree for them.
>>17431344You're confusing human tradition for heavenly law.This kind of attitude is why the Vatican sells plates with pictures of the pope on them. Because you people have totally lost the plot.
>>17429089>Why do protestants view icon veneration as icon veneration by another nameWhen will you christcucks stop being dishonest?
>>17431245>your entire post was a non-sequitur. My point is you’re an edgy, highschool boy who watches porn, plays video games, and scrolls a Hentai image board, and you’re autistically screeching about how>The Puritans were le heckin’ based, bro.When the reality is if you were teleported into the life of a Puritan a few centuries ago, you’d shit your pants immediately. And then you’d probably sewerslide.The life of a Puritan fucking sucked. The more radical Puritan movements basically considered anything fun or enjoyable to be hedonism.>Dancing>Sex>Food that tastes good>Sleeping an adequate amount every nightSin. Filthy hedonist. It was the “bitter incel” movement before .is existed.So you are sitting here, on your ass, surrounded by your 21st century creature comforts, scrolling a literal Japanese porn website, and you’re telling me that the “Duh Puritans were fucking based, bro.” It’s peak fucking irony. You don’t even live like a Puritan. The Puritans would have lobotomized you for being a filthy gooner retard. And yet here you are.>Prove to me that the majority of puritans threw acid on their childrenYeah, the majority didn’t, but the Puritans (and offshoot Puritan movements) were like the only fucking people that did.>Hurr, Puritan beliefs are so based.>Well no, I didn’t mean those beliefs.You’re a walking meme.
>>17429089>Christians "denominations"More like atheism.Or you're a Christian, or you're not.
>>17432416Cope.
>>17432416You'll be held accountable for gatekeeping the Kingdom of God.
>>17433277To be fair all christian denominations seem to schizophrenically flipflop over which parts of the Old Testament were fulfilled by the Old Testament (and can now be ignored) or which parts can be quotemined in support of their position on anything
>>17433277Whoa! This meme totally blew me the fuck out with facts and logic and turned me into a full blown TradFag!
>>17433286fulfilled by the new covenant*
>>17433277>we must RETVRN to literal judaismYou people literally can't help yourselves, huh.
>>17433297kek
>>17433297If the texts from which you are deriving your no images doctrine also mentions a billion images, you might be interpreting it wrong.Brass snake on a stick. Not an idol, heals people.Generations later people start worshipping it making it an idol, and the king as it destroyed.So the same object explains the whole dynamic.
>>17433297Who are the true Jews (Ἰουδαίους) in the context of Revelation 2:9?
>>17429089All Protestants do venerate icons. For example, icons of Christ in illustrations or icons of the Cross of the Lord on the walls.
>>17430093Post these historical evidences then. I didn't meet much proties who argued this way.
>>17429107>Historical Christians including Catholic, Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and so on don't see icons in that way.this is why o-fumi-e did not work as a test, right?
>>17429100Your church worships a nigger? WTF, glad I didn't join any modern (((churches)))
>>17431434NTA and kill yourself jew. Yes, if I was a Puritan or basically living during a more religious time in history I'd get laid more. Yes.>b b but you can't masturbate!Just lock the door lmao kill yourself
>>17431346In Acts 19:11-12, we see Paul’s handkerchief interceding.>And God wrought by the hand of Paul more than common miracles. So that even there were brought from his body to the sick, handkerchiefs and aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the wicked spirits went out of themSame case in 2 Kings 2:13-14 with Elijah miraculous cloak> And he took up the mantle of Elias, that fell from him: and going back, he stood upon the bank of the Jordan, 14 And he struck the waters with the mantle of Elias, that had fallen from him, and they were not divided. And he said: Where is now the God of Elias? And he struck the waters, and they were divided, hither and thither, and Eliseus passed over.
>>17429089>iconsthey are just images? Yes or No.
>>17435393Paul's handkerchief healed someone? BRB gotta go pray to St. Maximus about this.
