How exactly did Yoruba religions gain adherents and relative influence in virtually every new world? It seems strange to me how absolutist Catholic nations somehow prevented or ignored the spread of religions that emerged with the African diaspora in very different places, from Louisiana to Brazil. Clearly, this paganism is syncretized with Christianity for obvious reasons.Did the Iberians just say fuck it? I was told that the conversion was very important, how could one commit such a mistake?here in Portugal we have problems with some zucas who bring these things and pollute the streets.
>>17438271>somehowSomehow don't***
>>17438271The Americas were too far removed from Europe that it allowed fringe sects and cults to exist in isolation from authorities and from their part, the iberians cared more about number of natives converted, even if nominally, than about strict orthodoxy
>>17438271>absolutist Catholic nations somehow prevented or ignored the spread of religions that emerged with the African diasporaSyncreticism. The negroes were pretending to venerate various Catholic saints but were actually worshipping their African gods. That's why all the loas/orishas are combinations of some African derived deity and a corresponding saint
>>17438290This is actually par for the course for Catholocism. They've done the same thing everywhere they've spread.
>>17438290This
>>17438271maybe why your premise might be wrong? Catholics love to boast about how mass conversion was one of the main aspects of the colonials, perhaps when compared to the Anglos. but the average Iberian doesn't care whether the Indian or the African worshiped animistic spirits in huts made of shit. few missionaries set foot on Spanish and Portuguese ships, in factIt is different from more structured religions that were enemies of the Spanish court, such as the Muslims or the Aztecs.>>17438290You’re saying to me the Catholic were so weak, that they couldn't hold some random Yorubas?
>>17438290Why did this happened?
>>17438271Yorubas were among the last Africans to be transported as slaves before the abolition of the slave trade. So their religion managed to persist longer in the New World
>>17438284It's probably more like this anon said here>>17438284We are not talking about missionaries going from Rome to the Baltics or Germany, but about ridiculously expensive and dangerous ship journeys
OP herethanks for the answers, but I believe he>>17438321 answered the heart of the question
>>17438296Yeah in a lot of rural Europe saints used to be treated as mini pagan gods too, people would give them offerings and each one was supposed to help with specific problems or diseases in return
>>17438321right, but how did something so pathetic even for the pagan standard spread so much?
>>17438326>>17438296Not really
>>17438327Because a shit ton of slaves were imported for plantation work, especially to Brazil and Cuba where these religions (umbanda, santeria) are the strongest
>>17438290I bet most black converts and converted African countries go through the same thing. blacks were never converted>>17438271>here in Portugal we have problems with some zucas who bring these things and pollute the streetsI'm from Bragança, and I've had to remove this rubbish with my uncle several times, they just throw a lot of food and dirt on the streets. detail, my uncle is a pol level atheist but he agrees that Christianity is less ugly visually than this shit from Africa. Of course, not that I believe all this rubbish works, only a Latinx would lol
>>17438330Were there no convictions?
>>17438333Islamic Africa is like that too, they still do witchcraft but just add in a koran verse
>>17438333>blacks were never convertedThey were, unless you prescribed to a super strict definition of a "convert" but that would disqualify pretty much every Christian on Earth.
>>17438351Your semantics game was not smart, anon.In fact, what has already been mentioned here does not come under "conversion", but rather syncretism based purely on presumption. >ChristiansYes, if we are talking about those Christians who syncretize Buddhist spirituality or something, yes, but since this is not the case and we are only talking about Christians who practice their faith poorly, the argument does not make sense. Comparing a guy who doesn't go to mass or who had sex before marriage with thousands of people who worship pagan deities while calling out for Christ with a saint for each deity is different, anon>>17438343This always surprises me. Islamists are somewhat "strict" with their conversion and towards infidels. It surprises me that not even the strictest verses in the Qur'an could not stop African syncretism
>>17438339No
>>17438290>pretendingthat's the thing, they were not pretendingthey came to believe that their gods and the catholic saints were manifestations of the same entities after they manage to trace parallels between their stories, it almost a reverse interpretation grecae/romaneMight sounds crazy and heretical from an abrahamic point of view, but make perfect sense from a general pagan POV
>>17438333>but he agrees that Christianity is less ugly visually than this shit from Africa.I've been a student of Mythology since a very early age, and African Mythology is one of the shittiest things I've ever had the displeasure of reading. everything seems to come out of the Paleolithic.Mesoamerican indigenous beliefs are interesting, I found Siberian shamanism boring until I read the African thing.
>>17438366Islam outside of Arabia doesn't seem particularly strict to me and even in the middle east the radical Islam is a recent resurgence (since the seventies or eighties)
>>17438374>they were not pretendingthey were. it was actually a way of camouflaging themselves against Catholics who might find African deities strange. Christianity works differently from paganism, which is relatively easy for syncretism
>>17438384Not him, but you two are full of shit. I went to Mozambique in 2018 and people were literally attacking a guy for consulting witches.
>>17438386>they were.they weren't>Christianity works differently from paganismdoesn't matterthe discussion is not about how official catholicism works, but what people actually believe and how they interpret things
>>17438397That's literally what happened. they pretended and syncretized to believe in Catholicism to escape ostracism. In fact, nowadays they themselves assume this.>but what people actually believe and how they interpret thingsThanks, proving what the guy said =)With the lack of dogma and defined articles of faith, people believe any shit, and can syncretize it however they want, especially around the dominant religion
>>17438271look up the number of slaves in the Atlantic, you retard. There were a lot of Kangz in one place and they often ran away and formed groups.Now why and how did it spread? genetics. IQ decreases with the mixture of Indians and superstition takes over the place.>>17438374Retarded
>>17438406>they pretendedthey didn't pretended, they legit believed that their gods and the christian god and saints were the same entities> they themselves assumethat is just the modern narrative some groups push >Thanks, proving what the guy said =)What I said does not prove what he said retard >dogma and defined articles of faith,those mean nothing, folk catholicism is not the same as the official church catholicismthe dogmas of institutions are not the same of what the people actually believe >, people believe any shitpeople will always believe in what make sense to them
>>17438450>they didn't pretended, they legit believed that their gods and the christian god and saints were the same entitiesno. because when they had contact with Christianity, the differentiation was clear. mainly the attributes of the Christian God in comparison with the deities. As the other guy said, the conversion was relatively worse in Africa, which culminated in delayed syncretism and pretense to camouflage itself. the same with Islam>those mean nothingmeans. This is what prevents the emergence of sects or free interpretation based on personal subjectivism>folk catholicism is not the same as the official church catholicismWhat is "folk" Catholicism? Either way, Catholicism is the same as it always was.dogmas, apostolic succession, veneration of Mary, etc., etc.>the dogmas of institutions are not the same of what the people actually believeit literally is. long before secularism>people will always believe in what make sense to themnot when there is a structured faith system, like CatholicismNow shut up
>>17438525>not when there is a structured faith system, like CatholicismLmao plenty of people in structured faiths believed in shit that was outright blasphemous or against church norms. Why do you think Africa is exceptional in all this.
>>17438525>no. because when they had contact with Christianity, the differentiation was clear. mainly the attributes of the Christian God in comparison with the deities. As the other guy said, the conversion was relatively worse in Africa, which culminated in delayed syncretism and pretense to camouflage itself. the same with IslamThis all assumes that the people who brought Islam or Christianity brought it in a form that "unadulterated". That acrually isn't the case.
>>17438381>African Mythology is one of the shittiest things I've ever had the displeasure of reading. everything seems to come out of the Paleolithic.Which part did you find contentious? It's not exceptionally gore or violent.
>>17438366>we are only talking about Christians who practice their faith poorlyMost Christians practice it poorly. Most in large parts of the New World and europe can't even name the Tenants of the faith, consistently attend mass let alone reading the bible and church writings.>who had sex before marriage with thousands of people who worship pagan deities while calling out for Christ with a saint for each deity is different, anonYet many people in the world including Europe outright engaged in practices the church frowned upon but could not full stop. Again, Africa is not exceptional on that front. More so when some of the earliest practitioners of the religion were from Africa as well as some of the earliest states that made it the state religion were African themselves.
>>17438366>It surprises me that not even the strictest verses in the Qur'an could not stop African syncretismBecause Islam itself infused Middle Eastern non-Abrahamic aspects and trends into the faith. The faith tends to be flexible since it has spread allover the globe which mean it too changed with it's worshippers alongside the lack of one definitive central authority that rules a sect.
>>17438388>Catholicism is the same as it always was.You forgot the whole split over the latin mass.>it literally is. long before secularismMany worshippers venerated saints the church did not recognize for some time (or at all) or weren't exactly tied to a person who existed.
