This is a serious question and not meant as a troll thread.How many artists are unable to mentally visualize what they are drawing? Are there any of them on this board? Have any well known artists commented on it?How do people work around not being about to picture the image in their head?
I visualize things flawlessly, like my mind is in another dimension seeing an entirely other reality. That other reality is overlayed on top of my real vision, much like how you left and right eye can sometimes see different things. The problem is, just cause I can see things with my inner eye, doesn't mean I can transcribe it onto paper either
How can someone NOT be able to visualize a realistic apple? I have seen thousands of apples in my life. All I do is draw upon those memories and mash them together to create a sort of 3D render in my head, where I can look at it from all sides. That picture has to be bait.
>>7291704>>7291708It makes sense that most people who get into drawing have no issues with visualization, I'm more interested in hearing from people that don't.
I don't even know how to describe what I'm able to see. The "images" are vague. Resembles what a first sketch would be in a drawing. I see only the most "obvious" things and shapes. Probably a 4 in this scale >>7291693I feel like, to some degree, I just bullshit my way through until what I'm drawing from imagination looks decent. Knowing how something works certainly helps, Like the Gi said in some video.Such an interesting subject.I can post work if you want OP. What's your experience with visualization? Why are you asking this?
>>7291693It's called aphantasia. Glen Keane, a Disney animator has it and talked about it in interviews. https://theconversation.com/the-art-of-aphantasia-how-mind-blind-artists-create-without-being-able-to-visualise-162566Also this artist had it and said he cured it in this video.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H61AJ0KkkEc
>>7291729Bullshit just like ADHD.
>>7291738got anything to back that up, buddy?
>>7291738it's not, that's cope by imaginationletsresearch has shown eidetic memory is common in children and falls off steadily with age as they adopt and develop abstract thinking and stop thinking visuallyprobably explains why cavemen could draw animals in movement while modern people need autistic abstract concepts and structured systems to draw a man t-posing
pseudoscience. Young artists, don't get distracted by this bullshit. Else you might actually start believing it.
>>7291729Nice article. I'm >>7291725, this is exactly it.>Aphantasia prevents the generation of mental images based on knowledge of what things look like, but it does not prevent that knowledge serving as the basis for an image made with pencil and paper.>When you draw, you perceive the marks you make. Each change, perceived, suggests the next, in a feedback loop. You don’t have to imagine.I knew what aphantasia was and I always thought it was some bs, but apparently I have it? Never bothered to care and read about it. Lowkey can't believe that people like >>7291708 and >>7291704 exist.>>7291744I mean, it makes sense, though. And it's not like believing in it would stop anyone that really wants to draw from drawing.Right?
I still think this is a language/concept issue and everybody "sees" the exact same way
>>7291747nigga, not everyone sees the same way with their actual eyes
>>7291748I concede
Everyone's visualization ability increases ten fold when they're drifting off to sleep, meditation also works. But I fucking wish I could keep the same level of mental visualization acuity during the waking do as I get when I'm in bed
I never liked John Green and it’s not surprising that he has literally no consciousAs for me? I currently visualizing an apple inside a tesseract right now while it is rotating around in 3D space, with full color.
>>7291746>I knew what aphantasia was and I always thought it was some bs, but apparently I have it? Never bothered to care and read about it. Lowkey can't believe that people like >>7291708 and >>7291704 exist.On a related note, do other people really have all their thoughts as words? The only time I have an 'internal monologue' is when I'm having an imaginary conversation in my head. Not if my regular thoughts are in words.
>>7291768I have seen bobby chiu talk about how he cured his aphantasia through daily practice visualizing
>>7291775I believe image streaming is the method used for that. But it also makes you wonder how much visualization can be improved and to what extent.
if - you can imagine everything so clearly like you pretend, and you can also copy a drawing, then you should be able to draw litteraly everything correctly from your imaginationbut - you canttherefore - aphantasia is a meme, which comes from misinterpretations by self-proclaimed ‘aphantasists’ of what ‘imagining’ means, who believe that ‘normal’ people can literally see images forming clearly on their sheet of paper, but which also comes from the few ‘non-aphantasists’ who believe that the ‘images’ they see or think they see are ‘clear’, but who are apparently not intelligent enough to then recognise and deduce that these are merely unclear internal illusions when they find themselves unable to draw these images at all.
>>7291788aphantasia is not a meme, there are ppl who when they read fiction can't imagine at all what they are reading and that's the reason they don't enjoy reading.The person who say that they can copy from reference and can see everything like a 1, but can't copy it, are lying, either about their copying ability or about what they see.
>>7291743Shut the fuck up. There's no such thing as eidetic memory. The fucking world memory competition has been going for decades and there's never been anyone with super mega awesome fake memory winning it.>>7291739> prove a negativeProve you're not a faggot.
>>7291693Holy fuck i hate this topic. Aphantasia does not exist, it results from a breakdown of communication on what we experience. Thinking about what something looks like is so hard to describe with words theres goung to be confusion over it. Some are led to believe they should be literally seeingna floating apple infront of them as if they were wearing AR goggles, and then they'll latch onto this and use it as a cope as to why they still suck at drawing. Maybe theres are a handful of people unable to but they are likely in a mental institution given 24/7 care because if you really didnt posses the ability to visualise you would always get lost, not recognize your own face, the world would be a confusing mystery to you as if you were seeing everything for the first time. Everyone can do it and the more familiar you are with what ever it is youre trying to draw the less undefined areas there will be
>>7291693Is it photographic memory if I can remember exactly what a video looked like in my mind, or is that just normal? I can think of a (number 1) apple on my own, but whenever I see these memes, my brain shortcuts it by recalling a video I saw of an apple rotating in dramatic lighting with Rammstein's Sonne playing in the background.
>>7291788>if you can see something you can draw it???
>aphantasiacucks seething and copingI love it
>>7291746> And it's not like believing in it would stop anyone that really wants to draw from drawing.Right?You are right. However, believing in it might lead people to internalise they have a fixed condition that won't ever improve (when in reality it's not fixed at all. You can train your brain to think more visually)
>>7291693I realized I have this going onIt's impossible for me to have an image in my head I want to attempt to make. Every single time my process is just making marks and drawing in things until the feel/look right. I have no idea what I'm aiming for until I actually put it down on the canvas. Turns out, struggling to visualize the shit I want to draw in my head isn't the norm
>>7291704>The problem is, just cause I can see things with my inner eye, doesn't mean I can transcribe it onto paper eitherbullshit. what you're describing is essentially hallucinating. beyond hallucinating, probably. overlaying it on top of a page and tracing it would be trivial. you can't because what you feel you see isn't what you are actually seeing>>7291708draw it then. overlay your perfect imagination on a page and trace itbetter yet, draw a bicycle. do it right now, do not look for reference. you've seen thousands of them, haven't you? you're imagining one right now, crystal clear. trace it
>>7291857>draw it then. overlay your perfect imagination on a page and trace itnta, but "tracing" is not how it works. You visualize things and when you try to recreate them you recall what you visualized, you draw from a fictional memory of sort, you can't project it on canvas the way you describe it, at least not in my experience.
>>7291708I can visualize it, but it's like 3 on the scale, kinda lacking color just shapes. If I try to add color it just kinda flickers on and off, doesn't really stick.
Okay visualizing is cool, but how many anons here can also taste, hear, smell or even feel? I'd say taste is my second strongest after visualization, then smell then feel then hearing. I can literally feel the pussy of some exes on my cock, the feeling of their skin against me, the taste of their vajeen. Fuck I'm down bad bros, the smell of the room...
>>7291829past mid /beg/ yeah
>>7291857>overlaying it on top of a page and tracing it would be trivial.It's not tracing, it's copying. To visualize something is one thing ,to project it on paper is another. It's like taking a figure drawing class where your model is on one floor of the building and your easel on another at times- sometimes it is as easy as you say and you can project it on paper.
>>7291693i'm too busy visualizing to actual draw
more than half of the brain is solely devoted for visual processing, aphantasia doesnt exist
>>7291715It sucks. It's a very tiresome hell where even "play" feels like rigorous studies, since you cant develop a visual library. Or at least I cannot, as I straight up see nothing with my "mind's eye". I often burn out very hard because of it, but I keep coming back like a little bitch because I want to learn.
>>7291788You also need to be able to remember exactly how something looks. Geometric objects are easy but it takes a long time to memorize anatomy.
to make this a little bit more concrete let's take seeing things as first reference and having a dream as second. let's say former is 1 and latter is 3 (for me at least)if i close my eyes it's a literal zero. doesn't matter what i do there's no resemblance of imagination, no edges, no vague ghosts, nothingfor the longest time i thought visualizing was just a figure of speech. but no, after talking with some acquaintances of mine they swear they can conjure green grass and sheep jumping over a fence in their heads once they close their eyeswhat i can manage is create this sort of vibe of volumes, especially in motion. try standing in front of a featureless wall 2 steps away, close your eyes, and take a step towards it. there is a sense of second step getting you in trouble, but no outlines or textures. this is how my imagination works. if this is how it's supposed to work then sure, i'll concede that there's no such thing as aphantasianow to compensate i just throw a bunch of lines on canvas and try to sculpt them according to those volume vibes. also, i think i have pretty ok insight, that probably helps. if it looks schizo, yeah, i knowtrigger warning, /fag/ content
>>7291693im legitimately a number 5. I just think in words and dont really think it impacts how i draw. I dont even remember dreams etc. I just fall asleep and wake up lol.I dont think it impacts me much as an artist. everyone is drawing based mostly on reference these days anyway, and as long as you know perspective and basic design rules you can draw anything from reference anyway.It's not something really worth thinking about anyway, It's not like you can change it.
>How many artists are unable to mentally visualize what they are drawing? 5% of the population is aphantasic , with 50% of them being completely aphantasic (cannot generate mental imagines or mental sounds)>Are there any of them on this board?Hi.>Have any well known artists commented on it?Its a newly identified phenomenon but Glenn Keane from Disney has talked about being unable to visualize.>How do people work around not being about to picture the image in their head?Lots of references. I used to get frustrated because I was taught i didn't NEED references. i should just know what a face looks like! But i struggled with making it look "real".Once I realized i would need references, and that using references is okay, things got a lot easier. HoW dO yOu NoT SeE tHiNgS. It sounds stupid but imagine its like an AI generator. Most people would just think of something but i think in prompts ("red apple on a brown table with a bite taken our of the left side")I think its a lot like being colorblind- feels impossible at first but once you know it you can work with it.
>>7291693I fell like Araki probably has this. He just maxed out the symbol-drawing tree to that point that it starts to look good.
>>7291971>Hi.How do you manage different poses? What if there's no reference for the kind of pose that you want? Do you start with any kind of pose in mind, or do you look through references until you find something that's along the lines of what you're looking for?
>>7291879pyw
>>7291693i think im a 1. i can fully visualize forms and light sources and rotate things and shit. i used to do cad so i think that might have helped, but i also try to imagine things when meditating
>>7292069Are you?Are your memories crystal clear too?Without looking it up how many hair spikes does Kuriboh have?
>>7292075>Are your memories crystal clear too?my memories arent really clear and i have a pretty bad memory. i can visualize objects and scenes accuratly tho>Without looking it up how many hair spikes does Kuriboh have?you shouldve asked a better known yugio card!
>>7292083How many yellow lines does the left side of Exodia crown haveWithout looking it up
>>7291972I have aphantasia too, and the way i do drawing is like drawing geometrical shapes. Start from here, do a roughly smth degree angle and go twice the distance, go there. It's like stored descriptive info for everything imaginable
>>7292090nta but hyperphantasia and eidetic memory are not the same. You can very vividly visualize things, but incorrectly. It's why while it's definitely useful in art, it still requires effort to create an accurate visual bank as well as the skills to bring things from that visual bank together.
Aphantasia does not exist. If you couldn't imagine shapes you wouldn't be able to remember them either, so each apple you saw would be like the first. The problem is that some idiots think that when other people imagine something they are playing a scene in 4k surround in their heads.
>>7291693i think i can visualize but seeing shit like >>7291704 makes me think maybe i am not visualizing because i cant ""literally"" see made up shit in front of my eyes. they only exist in my mind. so if i visualize a hot girl sucking my dick, in the real world i wont see it.also obviously i wont be able to 100% visualize something i do not know of. like the inside of a car. i can picture it like a vague lump of pipes and metal but since i have no knowledge of the exact shape, i cant do it.how do you guys picture something you dont 100% know of if you are SEEING it like this kid >>7291704
>>7291971>(cannot generate mental imagines or mental sounds)like you don't get songs stuck in your head or recall voices? most people i know can't mentally simate/think in someone else's voice but i don't know anyone who can't think a tune
>>7291693every think to yourself and worry that you might not have an inner voice
>>7292236Stupid comments like this keep popping up all the time and you people just have zero reading comprehension.Aphantasia does not mean you don't have memory. It does not mean you don't have a stored library in your head, it just means you have no visual access to it. You can't picture anything in your minds eye. It's all pitch black. Is that so fucking hard to understand, it does not mean you cant remember what an apple looks like, you just can't picture what it looks like. If there's an apple in front of you, and you you then close your eyes, the instant you did, you will see only pitch black until you open your eyes again.I swear the people like you are the biggest dumbfucks ever with their retarded strawman
>>7291978>How do you manage different poses? What if there's no reference for the kind of pose that you want? not my art (no shit) but this explains it better than I could. Just find what you can and smash it together. if I REALLY can't find what I need, I'll use one of those 3d posers, but I don't like doing this because I have a hard time moving them and making it feel natural. Or I get my phone and either take the reference picture myself or get my friend to pose for me. Last ditch effort is "fuck it we ball". It won't be perfect, but I can get critiques and learn from it. >Do you start with any kind of pose in mind, or do you look through references until you find something that's along the lines of what you're looking for?Both? Sometimes I'll have a concept in mind (Like, "witch riding a broom casting a spell") and cobble together references from that. Sometimes I'll see a pose, either in references or in other art, and get an idea based on that, and then make tweaks. The biggest hurdle for me at the moment is separating heads and bodies. I feel like if I don't use the SAME angle for the head as the stock photo for the body (namely, the torso area), I will screw it up. I am trying to practice combining the two- heads and torsos can move (relatively) separately, so it's okay if the head is facing the cameras and the chest is tilted slightly away.
>>7292256Same thing Araki does then. For me I use references if I'm unsure how something is structured. I'll start with the exact pose and twists of the body in mind, start drawing and then look for a reference if I'm unsure how the bones and muscles are when the body is moved like that.
Not even going to read though the replies of this thread, but the whole 'debate' or 'meme' revolving around picrel is entirely a semantic one revolving around what it means to 'see' or 'imagine' something. It's insane how people will continue to shill this meme.
>>7292246Phantasia isn't exclusive to one sense. Some people can imagine a taste very well, but suck at imagining a song. Some can recall or imagine smells, some can't. Most people fall on a spectrum between hyperphantasia and aphantasia. And the intensity varies for each sense.
>>7292325Because they are just as stupid and low iq as the people they are trying to make fun of.
>>7292331Damn I wonder if someone out there can imagine so hard they can make themselves cum handsfree.
>>7292256>that picI get what the person is saying and use multiple reference for my art all the time, but the way they go about it would confuse begs if they didn't know how the subject anatomy is effected when limbs are moved or how the body keeps balance.
>>7291693I can visualize things, I just can't decide on something appealing to visualize.
>>7292325no it isn't, the the guy who coined the term was a scientist who could visualise who realized he was surrounded by artists who thought "visualizing" was a figurative term, you dumb nigger
>>7292325>>7292397or rather the guy who reported on it first, the term was coined afterwards
Guys did Chris Chan have hyperphantasia?
>>7292242>I can't literally see figments before my eyesNobody can. These figments exist in another dimension. It's impossible to consciously alter visual input.
>>7291967Your drawings are cool as fuck broI love seeing them in the trash threads
>Close eyes>See visual noise>Pull images out of that noise the same way you recognise shapes in clouds>Control what you see through concentrationAnyone else?
>>7292534yes, AI does exactly this
>>7291788Clarity and accuracy are two very different things with regards to visualization. I might be able to imagine a subject clearly and with fine details, but unless I'm actually extremely familiar with the subject those details won't be true to life. Keeping a visualization stable also requires a degree of concentration, which is troublesome when drawing requires 100+% of my focus.
>>7291738>>7291744>>7291788>>7292236>>7292325seriously, the paper that introduced aphantasia is completely retarded. they basically took a bunch people and asked them to draw a scene from memory and stuff like that, and found out that some people are better at it. except they excluded artists from their experiments, because every artist would pass it a lot better (obviously)so, like, how is it an innate feature of your brain if professional training affects the outcome of experiments so much? if you can't isolate the symptoms (let alone the mechanisms) - its not a real diagnosis. every "experiment" on aphantasia is exactly like that too, btw>"but some people FEEL like they have different capacity to imagine things. maybe you should trust the science, chud" whatever. psychology is not beating the replication crisis. not to say that people don't imagine\see things differently, but everyone who draws from imagination a lot knows that *feeling* of detail (like what the chart in OP shows) and specific details you can *actually* describe (the actually useful skill that can be developed) - are two very different things
I can only see images when I'm dreaming :(
>>7292988I can't even replicate algorithm papers half the time and the results are supposed to be straightforward but they hide their shit behind cherry picked examples and hardly ever mention when it doesn't work. You only find out it's shit after spending a week implementing it. And these retards think ADHD is real. lmao
>>7291857>what you're describing is essentially hallucinating. beyond hallucinating, probably. Yes. It’s called hyperphantasia. It’s not common, but apparently some people can do it.>>7291693I CAN visualize things. I think I have normal mental visualization abilities. But I don’t feel like it’s actually helpful while I’m in the middle of drawing. All I can do is compare what’s on the paper with the goal in my head. I can’t really “look” at what’s in my head and “copy” it like I’m copying a photo ref. I don’t know if this is just a practice issue or maybe I’m actually below average at mental visualization.
>>7293037I just draw from what's in my head, I barely ever use a reference.
>>7291693I get a range of 2-4 but I can't ever really "hold" it. I can rotate them but usually only hold onto the thought for a few seconds. I pretty much need references
>>7291693If you can't do it, you're not an artist.
>>7291857It is more like copying as >>7291862 said. Here you go anyway. 1 minute and 30 seconds. No construction. No reference. Ovals And circles are still my weakness however.
>>7293154Interesting. Can you rotate that bike like 30 degrees to the right along its y axis and redraw? I'm genuinely curious. I can do something like that, but if I had to compare to it blender, the origin point is in the left handlebar so when I rotate it the bike rotates from that area.
>>7293154English is not my first language, so I do not know if I understood your request. You wanted me to make it a head on view like this? I am not sure I completely understood by 30 degrees to the rght, but it is a start.I spent like a minute on this one, half of it just trying to figure out what you meant.>Starting a reply with simply "Interesting." Are you a cartoon villain?
>>7293169Nigga you there?
>>7292256What is the actual point of this image.Literally all it takes is a few points in the Loomis skill tree and you can just construct a mannequin for a basic pose like this. That girl looks skilled enough at construction that mentally photobashing a bunch of references to get that drawing is actually more effort and time spent than just farting the thing out from imagination. She didn't reference anything actually difficult like the drapery or the hair or the clothing, she didn't reference complex and detailed anatomy, she isn't Norman Rockwell she's a tumblr artist with an incredibly simple style. No, she just vaguely referenced bits and pieces of the *poses*, easily THE most trivial thing that needs it the LEAST, from a bunch of different images for a ridiculously simple pose for a ridiculously simple pinup illustration. What an absolutely retarded tutorial. Utterly useless fluff. Just pick up Fun With A Pencil, for the love of mike.
>>7293389>loomis skill treestopped reading there, learn to talk like a human, you video game brainrot zoomer
it's mostly a misunderstanding. a lot of people interpret "Visualize" as being able to vividly hallucinate on command, which is not something a lot of people can do. You can "think" how a giant apple would look on your hand, but you can't "hack" your visual input to superimpose your imagination unto what you're actually seeing in real time,
>>7292256I really hate when artists, do this. This requires you already have some type of knowledge about anatomy and how to draw in general.
>>7291704(literal) schizo
>>7291693>How many artists are unable to mentally visualize what they are drawing?Sometimes I can conjure up some kind of imagery, but it's really fuzzy and I can't make it out. By the time something more clear pops up it's usually too late to change. I do have ADHD and I noticed that taking meds does help to focus that fuzzy image into something much more clear and I can figure out the point/direction of my pieces faster. For example, when I'm not on my meds and working on thumbs/sketches they are extremely messy and mostly scribbles. There is some sort of an idea there, but I still can't make it out. When I am on my meds though, my thumbs/sketches look way more focused and refined. Probably, because the images in my head are much clearer and accessible which makes it much easier for me to then plan out the composition, colors, add more elements to fill out the story, etc. in a way that better suits the direction I want the work to go instead of just having to constantly wing it. I am not sure if this is due to aphantasia or not, but it's something that I've, personally, noticed that's been affected when I take my ADHD meds. On a side note I think this extends outside of art, because on meds, I can see images of things I need to do or the area in which I've put an item down. I can't usually see these images when I am unmedicated which might affect my ability to remember things. I think that they might be related.
>>7291693Now that you mention it, I'm wondering if I can see the apple spinning in my mind. I don't know if I can, I just see black. But sometimes the apple appears, a fat guy eating the apple, and suddenly a dragon eating a car like it's a cheeseburger, and I can't focus anymore and I don't see the damn apple spinning in my mind. What level am I at: someone help me!!!!!!!!
>>7292256What kind of disgusting Frankeinstein traced shit is this? References are supposed to be there as a guide. Not as tracing materials. Zoomers are fucking pathetic
>>72916935 here, the mere concept of being able to visualize even outlines is crazy to me.>How do people work around not being about to picture the image in their head?Personally I try to describe the picture/pose in my head with keywords like "3/4 view, cute, looking at the viewer" etc. when it develops enough you can feel the general idea and how it should develop. And references, LOTS of references.
>>7291693I'm a 5 on the scale. I'm also face blind.I can still draw an apple. I need references for some things, particularly if I've never drawn them before. If I draw a subject over and over again, until I can break it down into very simple shapes on a page (circles, squares, triangles) and how big they should be proportional to each other, then I can get by without.
>>7291693i'm a 5. i've been told i'm good at mimicking styles/drawing on model, but i always need to use a ref to do so. unfortunately my fundies are incredibly weak
>>7293690>but you can't "hack" your visual input to superimpose your imagination unto what you're actually seeing in real time,this IS what people mean by visualize, anon.
>>7294154Luckily you can practice visualizing and get better at it with time, superimposing a mental image irl with something simple like an apple is a good start. Just look at your hand and imagine if there were an apple in it. If you need to, look at an apple elsewhere and then back at your hand, estimating the change in apparent size and angle. It's just like any other mental tactic, it's something that some people do naturally and some people would have never considered, like people that do math by visualizing counts of objects, or memorize information by putting them in different places in their room and then walk through it, or something.
>>7292513p-please say sikethere's actinides more stable than my scribbles
what's the actual rate of each number in the population
>>7291704>That other reality is overlayed on top of my real vision, much like how you left and right eye can sometimes see different things.A while ago I saw a thread on /r9k/ talking about this. He even linked some YouTube videos on how to do it but I don't think I'll be able to find it again.
>>7291704tl;dr: Your hand coordination and patience correlate just how much from your mind can be transferred into reality. That's all you had to say pal.But at the end of the day, anyone thinking you need this to make great art is -1Mil IQ retarded. At most, just the "idea" of it is all you need, what you should be doing is "sculpting" out what you see and getting close enough approximations of what you are imagining onto a canvas, then what's left is just refining what's there. 90% of my art today is just doing random shit based closely on something that I think about, and cleaning it up to make it actually look appealing. When you really think about it, and I know tihs is actually going to trigger some people here and I'm not saying this in a supportive mindset, it's like using AIslop and "correcting" it. Why I say this? It's basically wasting time with a "final" result just to fix the problems that don't line up. But instead of doing that "photographic recreation" from your mind to paper. you skip to the actual "fundamentals" via constructing the foundations, THEN, refining and cleaning up what's actually in reality. So instead of wasting time trying to render (in your mind) then cleaning up the mistakes, you just do the steps in the proper order, sketch it out, then refine it.tl;dr: Basically, do what people tell you to do, simplify the fundamentals to make the process easier. Don't overthink it, literally. Just fucking draw,
This stuff makes me think of brains more like computers. It's fascinating how my brain tricks me into thinking I have a memory. Because I know If try to draw the image in my head I wont know the perspective lines or the proportions. How does it do that then? It stores a representation of the data but not enough information to recreate it. Almost like when you shrink an image down and then inflate it. It loses all the detail.
>>7296253Recognition memory allows you to identify something when you see it, like recognizing a bike. Recall memory, on the other hand, involves retrieving information without any cues, such as drawing a bike from memory. Recognition is generally easier because it relies on familiar patterns and cues and is often what we use to visualize ideas. The process of creating a visual library is both adding something to your recall as well as training spatial logic which makes the concept more concrete than the abstract inaccurate symbols most people visualize. It's why somebody can be hyperphantasic and visualize something very vividly, but it still be completely inaccurate to reality.
>>7295000it's really nice, could you share what brush you are using?
when you imagine things, you are imagining them in real life or close to it, but when you draw you need to draw lines. Real life doesn't have line weight and cell shading or cross hatching, so that's why when you try to draw something you imagine, it looks different. When you draw, you are creating something completely new that is loosely based off ideas and concepts you have as a human. You are not trying to be a xerox machine, or I should say you "shouldn't" try to become a xerox machine.
>>7296962i can definitely try. prepare to get an aneurysm
>>7291967>>7295000Absolutely insane process but with really good results. Almost closer to sculpting than drawing. Got any finished pieces?
I gotta admit I always thought aphantasia was some bullshit but some of the testimonials in this thread have swayed me. It's like how some people can "hear" an internal monologue while others just think of feelings/concepts with no language involved.
i really don't think i can visualize things in my head, instead my inner monologue is loud as fuck and i'm constantly describing things that are happening around me or my thoughts at going 9 millions miles an hour, it kinda sucks. but i feel like my "imagination" is pretty good, while i can't see i can describe in excruciating detail what i want something to look like and i'm a massive chuuni that is constantly having stories and shit playing in my head with characters that i've made, the brain is very weird.
>>7297787I dunno...are you telling me some people don't remember seeing and hearing things?
>>7297846it has nothing to do with memory
>>7291704>The problem is, just cause I can see things with my inner eye, doesn't mean I can transcribe it onto paper eitherSame I can visualize things in my mind, but when I try to draw upon them, they end up crap. only simple things like south park characters turns out well. Just like tulvit in pic, i am pretty decent when I have a reference to draw from. But when it's from memory and imagination, they never turn out well. I can draw things I used to somewhat okay, but still need references to make it somewhat good.
how we visualize things is such an interesting topic and i’m surprised there’s no conclusive answer or explanation for why so many people vary (unless there is and i’m missing it). for me i think i THINK i’m seeing more than i’m actually seeing. it’s like you tell me apple and i have the sense of it and its color but it isn’t there. but i can “see” it. i imagine a lot of stuff in this way and it feels vivid to me but i know i’m not really seeing it
>>7297782shit's pretty sad in that department. i need to be at gunpoint to get anything near completion
>>7297896>i’m surprised there’s no conclusive answer or explanation for why so many people vary (unless there is and i’m missing it).Scientist are very skittish when it comes to studies of human neurology, for obvious reasons.
>>7298078>ODESZA referenceNice
>>7298109Don't worry, all that is going to fly out the window as soon as the ultra elite start fucking around heavily with things like perfect gene edited superhumans and biohacking. There just won't be any room left to say we're all created equal anymore when the undeniable proof will be right in front of us everyday. This will pave the way for ethics being taken out of the equation and pretty soon science will return to its original doesn't give af about the implications or your feelings state. It's why understanding even though there are tangible fundamental differences between all of us, what matters most is how you make the most out of what you've been given. And most importantly, to be strong willed. There will be a STRONG push against the idea of free will in the coming decade for obvious reasons. It's the only thing that can allow one to transcend what would otherwise be their genetically pretermined destinies.
>>7291693I can picture stuff "in my head" but it may look inconsistent like those AI-generated videos.
>>7297847Can't visualize what you don't remember
>>7297883still beg, things might improve after more fundies.
Question for the whole class.For you personally, what is the difference between remembering having an apple in your hand and visualizing having an apple on your hand. (If any)
>>7298266smell and taste
>>7298266I can't remember the last time I held an apple desu
>>7298266Remembering feels more like an out of body experience and isn't necessarily visual. If I looked at an apple in my hand and was remembering looking at that apple in my hand it would be the same I guess.
>>7298273eat more fruit fatty
>>7291693For me visualization feels like this.
>>7298266If I'm remembering having an apple in my hand, then I'm recalling a specific incident from the past. How vivid that memory is and what senses are involved will vary depending primarily on what interest level and emotional state I had at the time that incident occurred. Since I don't have a passion for apple-holding, my memories in this case are a bit vague and visual only.If I'm visualizing holding an apple, it's more like i'm using the total sum of my memories to construct a reasonable set of sensory data for an imagined incident. I can either rapidly flip my focus between the different senses involved, or increase my concentration to experience more senses simultaneously or add finer details. It's more akin to a video or memory (or at least the way I perceive memories) than a picture or sculpture or something, and has a tendency to shift in various ways over time, though i know some mental tricks to help prevent that from happening if I so desire.I can also use visualization to supplement memories. Actually, it's difficult for me to avoid doing so: if I remember a time I held an apple, I will almost subconsciously construct a tactile sensation of how it might have felt, even if I don't really remember it. I'll also sort of fill in visual details I've forgotten. This happens so rapidly, and with so little conscious input on my part, that it can be difficult to tell the difference at times between what I actually remember and what I'm adding to that memory.
>>7298340Fun fact. Some people have little to no "memory", but make "visualization" reconstructions form what little memory they have and first principles.
>>7298351vectors and metadata vs raw bitmap
>>7298352that's a neat point. If we developed different formats to store images, who's to say evolution didn't do something equivalent?
>>7298351>>7298352>>7298353
>>7294302Then you hallucinate when you imagine things? Hallucination on-demand is "normal"? Fuck off.
>>7291693I absolutely refuse to believe that someone cannot visualize a fucking apple in their brain. Like at the very least you have to be a 4, but literally seeing nothing when thinking of an apple is absolute insanity.
i'm like a 4 but with colors i guess, but i don't really know what anything looks like? i'm just making stuff up in my head. like when i think of an apple or a person i can sort of think of "red" and think of the apple in my head but it's like lines appearing and fading away quickly. i also can't think of the actual form, only the lines. if i think of shading, it's lines around the shaded spots. likewise if i think of a cube i can't really think of the whole thing at once, it has to be lines making one face, then another, then another, while they're also going away in my head. i also can't do this with stuff i haven't looked at a lot, so i can't imagine a tree, a railroad, etc. it's just me making up what stuff looks like in my head
Before bed I sometimes have incredibly vivid hallucinations of a character or something and I'm like "HOLY SHIT DRAW THAT"Then I clamber to my notebook and pen and try and it's not quite right and then the vision fades.Then I get insomnia.When I'm actively awake and can draw I barely get any revelations like that, I mostly draw on whim and occasionally it may look good.I get the same with music but I don't even know where to start on that. Pisses me off.
Is it even possible to construct basic shapes without visualization? If you want to draw a cube you must visualize where the points of the cube are in 3D space
>>7298787>If you want to draw a cube you must visualize where the points of the cube are in 3D spacewhy must you visualize it?
>>7299236say you have two lines and you want to find their intersection. what you do is you imagine what it would look like if you extended them and then you know where to make your mark.A lot of the visualization discourse is bs imo, but that much is the bare minimum you have to grant, right? What's the alternative, guessing based on some vague feeling?
>>7300713If you do it enough the feeling isn't vague anon. It's intuitive.
Noone can visualize as in literally having images in your mind. People that can imagine things well imagine things like dreams. This means you don't have an image in your head but instead you can recall the emotion you had when you saw it. You see this escpecially in things that require precision, such as machines. Everybody can imagine a gun, but only people that are familiar with how guns work can depict a gun correctly, yet at the same time all skilled artists can draw something that FEELS like a gun, purely out imagination without knowing anything about firearms. And as a personal note the latter is more important than the former.
>>7300713you can get perspective and shape by pure calculation with no imagination, that's how computers do 3d.
>>7291693
>>7300850Thanks for the explanation, but it's clear from it that you have aphantasia. I'm so sorry, anon.
>>7300850>Noone can visualize as in literally having images in your mindyes we can lmao
>>7301840>>7301843The lack of imagination and total imagination is a falsehood. If you don't spend your time looking at apples, you won't be able to imagine an apple. Yes even if you eat apples all the time, unless you STUDY an apple you will be invariably just recalling what you find most important. A person who buys apples for the household is thus more likely to have better recall of apples than a person who simply eats the apples that are there. A person who has experienced biting into a rotten apple will also likely have paid more attention to how apples look after that event.The bicycle drawing test is an excellent example of this, since even people who ride bikes frequently won't be able to place everything correctly due to the fact they simply ride the bike rather than care about the intricacies of it. The human mind inherently curates incoming information to what is most important.
>>7301843I mean it's like trying to convince a color blind person that you can see this color called blue. It just doesn't work. Who knows maybe one day once neuralink and all that shit takes off they can get a biochip that allows them visualize things and then they'll understand.
>>7293885No shit. It's a tip for artists, whom have to study anatomy at some point to improve their craft. You should have a basic knowledge of anatomy and the human form as an artist.
>>7301857You can't still visualize something you've barely seen, it just won't be accurate.
If you can solve this you are able to mentally visualize. However it isn't a given that you're conscious about it.If you can solve this and don't know how you did it you have aphantasia, which means that you're not fully conscious.
>>7302325How do you verify 'you know how you did it' is how you actually did it? How do you know you know?
>>7302331You don't need to verify that. The difference is between experiencing consciousness and not experiencing consciousness when doing shape rotation. Given that you can solve the problem, when asked how, you'd either respond with "I rotate the shape in my head" or "I don't know".
The common denominator is poor or no spatial reasoning. Some things off the top of my head are dyspraxia, adhd, some forms of autism, and brain injuries. This isn't to say if you can't visualize you should automatically assume you have one of the above, visualization can be trained, as can spatial logic, and like many things, it can come easier or harder to individuals. If you find yourself clumsy, unable to feel rhythm, poor spatial sense in the real world, you might have one of the above though. I doesn't mean you can't learn to be an artist either, there are many notable examples of artists with aphantasia or the inability to visualize that can still create pretty amazing art simply because art is a skill that can be trained. Visualization while helpful, is only supplemental to the process of creation.
>>7302325How am I solving this? I feel like I can draw this if someone asks, but I can't like visualize it?
>>7302222If that is the audience that you claim its intended for then that demographic would already know that. The people who wouldn't know to do that would be...beginners! Yet, beginners don't know enough to be able to do that yet.
>>7302325i can solve this in like 10 sec but i have to draw lines with my finger, even if i barely move my finger i still have to sort of move it otherwise it's 20x harder. i don't rotate the shape in my head, i just trace in the direction i see it and follow based on that. so right down right right turns into left down left left. though im not really thinking left down etc im just following the finger movement
>>7302325Fucking hell I have worked on the first row for so long but I absolutely cannot tell if it's 2 or 3. They both look identical to the reference image when I rotate them in my head. Is it multiple answers or am I just a brainlet?
>>7302620yes each row has two answers.
>>7302626t. my amazing visualization abilities
i have bd and while experiencing mania i feel like my imagination is so vivid about objects, being able to manipulate the environment and scale of it in my head. music/atmospheric noises and caffeine helps i bet if someone were struggling with imagination
>>7302665Same, though the downside is that during depressive cycles, at least for me, it's so fucking hard to visualize anything, it feels like it's a struggle to even get lines to do what I want them to do.
>>7291693The image doesn't really represent reality,we've all seen thousands of apple's so we have no issue visualizing it from every angle because we already know how it looks , the same doesn't apply to something new, that's why people use reference images .
>>7301840>>7301843Nah you two are just dummies and also probaly NODRAWS.If not, you'd been to a sketch meetup and knew that most people can't even draw a functioning bycicle, or any popular animal. A lot of people can't even name the eye color of their immediate family or gf.This is because fantasy is directly linked to memory. Memory however is awful at storing info, yet most people feel like they reliably store info, kinda like you felt when you replied.
You don’t actually see anything in your head. There are no eyes in there. You’re just imagining what it would look like, in the same way you can imagine sound or smell or taste or touch. If you actually literally see an image you are a schizo
>>7302325This made me dizzy until I realized I was supposed to go across the rows instead of vertically. Then I ended up having to count the boxes.As I studied it more, visualizing it became easier.Aphantasia is myth. The real thing these kinds of tests prove is the concept of humans being "intellectual misers." This is an inherent evolutionary trait in most people. The amount of caloric effort it takes the brain to process shit is huge, meaning people try to minimize how much thought they have to put into things. Hence you have anons taking shortcuts because it's simpler and less energy demand, and such visualizations get easier as one is more familiar with the object since the process of understanding is already overcome.As a side note, learning a shitton is likely a factor (not a huge one, but a factor) in why some people don't gain weight that quickly, and then rapidly pack on the pounds after they pass a certain age. Both the fact that people just stop caring to learn new shit and settle into patterns, and the people who are still learning or in intellectually-intensive fields having less to do brainwork on due to already knowing 90% of the actual work by heart - it's less energy demand on them.You'll note that the artists who actually work on constantly improving have a tendency to not be fat sacks of shit. Not exclusively, but it's a tendency.
>>73023252, 31, 3
>>7302884>As a side note, learning a shitton is likely a factor (not a huge one, but a factor) in why some people don't gain weight that quickly, and then rapidly pack on the pounds after they pass a certain age. Both the fact that people just stop caring to learn new shit and settle into patterns, and the people who are still learning or in intellectually-intensive fields having less to do brainwork on due to already knowing 90% of the actual work by heart - it's less energy demand on them.>You'll note that the artists who actually work on constantly improving have a tendency to not be fat sacks of shit. Not exclusively, but it's a tendency.
>>7302908Around 20% of a human's TDEE is taken up by their brain
Really enjoying the cope in this thread. Some people actually are capable of conceptualizing complex images, like shapes, and rotating them nearly effortlessly. It's okay if you can't, and it likely isn't required to be a "good" artist, but you are lying to yourself if you think there aren't people who can look at shapes like that and figure out the answer in seconds without using "cheats" or becoming confused.
>>7303112Visualization is a skill. Being able to visualize random crap just isn't a priority for most people when they've got other things that are way more important to spend energy on, and doing a thing they haven't practiced takes effort.It's obvious what will happen when a set of untrained people aren't putting in effort for a test that by its nature falsely assumes the task should be "effortless."
>>7291693proko
>>7302838Retard, you can still visualize things in your mind even if your memory is bad and it's inaccurate. Just accept you're an aphantasiac faggot.
>>7291869i can taste some images just by seeing them
>>7303138That's just admitting that my initial post is accurate and visualisation is more like dreaming than having pictures in your mind
>>7303128I'm sure it can be trained by some as a skill, but for me it is not. I can do it effortlessly. Well, maybe not completely effortlessly, but with very little effort. I'm being completely truthful when I say that it takes me a matter of seconds to figure out the answer to this just, glancing at each shape and rotating the one on the left in my mind to see what it lines up with. This isn't something I ever trained to do, it requires almost no effort or energy, it is something I've been able to do as long as I can remember.
>>7302325I don't know what the test proves. You just have to see that the top image's offshoots are in parallel and the bottom image's offshoots are perpendicular.
Im a number 5. I sketch a lot since i cannot see shit in my head, heres some concepts.
>>7303223You're relying in your pattern recognition rather than your visualization which, like you said, makes the test pointless. It's like being asked to get to the other side of the pool as fast as you can and you proceed to just run along the sides of the pool rather than swim across. Like sure its works but you really missed the point of the test.
I don't know if this helps, but whenever I visualize it's kind of like going to sleep and dreaming and being able to peer into the dream while awake. This one time I did benadryl because stupid teen and that was a completely different form of seeing things. It was less like I was peering into the dream and more the dream was in my fucking face and I couldn't turn it off so it felt 'real' and I believe this is the difference between visualizing and hallucinating.
>>7297160Is that krita?
if you cant visualize or think in words, you're a low IQ npc. Theres no other explanation
>>7303198The circumstances of your life likely meant that you were trained to do such a thing just by the environment you grew up in. Obviously there's some baseline that may differ between people, but things like "had to get up in the middle of the night to pee and needed to memorize layout of house to not bump into shit in the dark in both trip directions" are these subtle things that train you.It's effortless for me to read nutrition facts but that's probably because as a kid I used to eat cereal marketed to older people at my grandma's house, so there was very little of interest to look at on the boxes while I ate besides that. Meanwhile getting most people to actually pay attention to this shit while shopping has been like pulling teeth. They aren't familiar with the format and so it takes mental effort during something people usually find stressful.
>>7303948you seem to have mistook me for someone reasonableno, it's gimpi'm trying to port the pencil to mypaint engine though. that would be usable in krita, but that's not going too well
>>7302325I can solve this easily and I don't see shit in my headI "feel" shapes and relationships between shapes and directions and curves and corners and relative positionsI can zoom in and do the with smaller details and I can zoom out and do that with larger blocksI can feel an apple in much the same way. it's a feeling that sort of has to build and rebuild itself over and over. like I'm touching an apple with my mindI know this is different from actually seeing stuff because when I'm very tired or sleepy, sometimes when I'm on the edge of falling asleep or waking up, sometimes when I'm on drugs I can actually see things clear as daythe thing is, if you actually see things that clearly regularly, that seems like a pretty useful thing for art and daydreaming and jacking off, but a huge inconvenience for just going about your day
>>7295000unrelated to everything here but your style inspired me to try some weird things.anyway, you have cool work.keep it up!
supposed to stay in nothing. cannot actually touch crayons or draw actual shapes. cannot actually touch a crayon.
>>7304661>Not daydreaming of yourself in over-animated fight scenes to videogame soundtracksWhy even live?
>>7300850It's definitely limited by your memory. I suck at anatomy because I never bothered learning it and I probably never will because I'm lazy af, but I sketched this out quick and the pose is pretty much what I was visualizing.
>>7303948now that i think about it, i should have added krita variant to the conga line>>7305249that's a spooky brushalso, always warms my heart to hear about cross inspiration
>>7303515cool
>>7293154>>7293200kek
>>7291693as a one my problem is that i can spend hours starring at a wall just visualizing fucking my waifu.Ill be in class looking like an attentive listener but not one word goes through my brain lol
>>7291693I've a friend that I recently found out has aphantasia and I honestly didn't expect it. Was talking with her about it and she told me part of her process is mostly having a shitton of references at hand to pull up and help with the initial stage of knowing what the fuck you're gonna draw in the first place. I didn't ask more about her method at that moment to not make her feel as if I saw her like a strange creature but I'm thinking about asking her to elaborate a little more on how she does things with such a handicap desu
>>7307531>having a shitton of references at hand to pull up and help with the initial stage of knowing what the fuck you're gonna draw in the first placeThat's normal if you want to Just Draw and not sit there staring at a blank page stuck in indecision.
>>7304661That means that your shape rotation ability is not directly accessible to your consciousness. However it does still need to exist. Therefore aphantasia can't describe a difference in cognitive abilities, but a difference of how conscious one is of them. The thing that people refer to as the mind's eye, you're experiencing it more indirectly than others.>>7303223Both of the sets contain a shape that is a mirrored version of the actual, so this heuristic alone will give you a wrong answer in both cases.
>>7307536The only time I ever draw is if I think of a neat pose to do. I only use a reference if I get stuck on a specific part.
>>7307817That's actually a problem many newbies fall into. Drawing because you have something to draw vs drawing because you have the urge to draw even if it's not a specific thing vs drawing even when you don't have the urge because when you do have it you want to be able to feed that urge well.
>>7307519you have to be 18 to post here
>>7307519Not to make it worst but Im thirty one.
>>7307966That's a cope.
>>7307966having the urge to draw but not drawing is a fate worse than death
>>7311372>daydream about drawing while at work>come home>too tired to draw>fall asleep watching art youtube>feels inspired but can't get up and draw, gotta get up early in the morning>wake up full of energy>waste energy at workthat does seem worse than death :(
>>7311372>>7311381I break it by making a coffee, sitting my ass down in a chair, holding a pencil, and promising to myself I'll only draw one stupid doodle.The rest flows like water.
>>7311443when I do it I draw a page of doodles and get angry I didn't get any good idea
>>7311467When I don't have an idea I just stop and do something else.Pressure only makes it worse.Then usually 1 or 2 hours later I'm full of idea's.
>>7311467ur trying too hard. You need to relax and the ideas will come. You're placing so much importance on the act it's stressing you out. If you keep doing that you will unwittingly condition your brain to associate the act of creating with negative feelings. Just stop caring. Let yourself go. Enjoy the act for the sake of enjoying it.
