Where do you draw the line between referencing and copying?
it depends
>>7360299>Where do you draw the lineon the canvas
>>7360299Artists have been doing it for centuries. All your favorites from Rockwell and Frazetta all the way to Bouguereau. It doesn't matter whether it's other drawings, statues, or photos being used as reference material, so long as it gets the job done.https://gurneyjourney.blogspot.com/2018/02/bouguereau-in-his-studio.html
"all that matters is getting the job done" is the soulless capital take. artistry is in how you express your work imaginatively after building your visual library. Its harder, but it's much more distinctly you.this is also why kyles art kind of bores me. His best piece ive ever seen was because of a well rendered sweater.
>>7360299At transformative work.Both of these are transformative by being stylized. OP if further transformative by changing the subject and background.
I always assumed this guy's work was 3d traced because of the sausage fingers. I'm more even disappointed to find out that it's referenced while looking the way it does now.
>>7360299It is precisely this meatbag nonsense that AI is designed to ruthlessly and efficiently wipe out.
>>7360313>It doesn't matter whether it's other drawings, statues, or photos being used as reference material, so long as it gets the job done.it fucking matters lol. don't use photos you don't hold the rights to in commercial projects. Don't trace others drawings etc. You will get fucked. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incarnate_(comics)
>>7360320that is not what transformative means in law. "Transformative use" means a different use, the use of the image for a different purpose.
>>7360299not a trace - not a copy
>>7360310BOOOOOO. Get off the stage!
>>7360299this guy's stuff is confusing, it's like it's both good and bad at the same time
>>7360299The right looks better.
>>7360299most Twitter gaywads who accused me of tracing never posts the image they accuse of cheating. Fucking morons want ME to post my references. Fuck you Twitter shits
>>7360355He makes a lot of weird stylistic decisions. His values looks like it's trying to replicate 3D rendering but it's like he's afraid of smooth edges or making his girls look "too soft." His faces are a bit weird, too. I like it when anime artists actually draw the chin and nose - but he's just not able to make it look appealing. Could be a proportion issue or an issue with his style.
>>7360299as long as I get to look at delicious looking buttholes I'm ok with it.
>>7360299I don't, trace the over the drawing If you have to. The sooner tracing is destigmatized the better. It gives you the mileage and eye hand coodination needed to evenually make successful drawings. Even pro tier artist will tell you this.
>>7360299referencing is taking the subjects information, and using our skill to place it as a whole or its parts in a different position, or style, or composition, for whatever our purpose iscopying is taking the whole subject, or most of its aspects ,or a major aspect of it, and reproducing it in our art with little to no change thats the closest I can get its not entirely clear, but the purest referencing or copying is as I described in this case, the pose was copied, as well as the body as a whole, and only other things were changed
I like to combine different facial features to create something new. This is pretty much how I use reference. Often times I'll start out with a sketch, then search my reference folders (where I have literally 500k+ images saved) for stuff that is similar to what I want for the sketch.
>>7360299>coom artist traces over porn picturesShocking truth!
>>7360431>Often times I'll start out with a sketch, then search my reference folders (where I have literally 500k+ images saved) for stuff that is similar to what I want for the sketch.hmm good idea. I should try that. My ref folders are a total mess though, mostly there for random inspiration than direct ref I guess.
>>7360299I use images to make a 3d model. Then I change that models pose to fit better with what I want. Then I use that.
>>7360299>>7360355>>7360375It looks to me like he is overly reliant on the reference. The result is uncanny — a cartoon face with a body that is lighted/rendered in a realistic fashion and includes details (such as indications of the bones of the foot) that are usually left out of cartoon art.Women's feet are idealized in classical art, and especially in cartoons, to emphasize femininity. They are made smaller and more delicate. The toes in >>7360375 appear large and masculine, even though they are probably accurate to the reference. The fingers in >>7360299 look like they are retaining water, even though they are copied from the photo. This is further evidence that the artist leans heavily on reference; hands are hard to draw, even with a reference. You have to understand the construction.
>>7360299At tracing
>>7360338copyright law is outdated
>>7360431I do something similar. I will find heads of similar shape and angle and swap features.
>>7360299so everybody is just tracing? that's it? Why am I spending hours constructing bodies and studying anatomy
>>7360483>Why am I spending hours constructing bodies and studying anatomy?For your own sake. So you can have the assurance that you're a real artist. Once you throw your dignity away, a Pandora's box of dirty tricks become available to you.>>7360331The funny thing is that AI can do Kyle's style better than Kyle can. He's already been replaced.
All "reference" is copying.
>>7360476tell it to the judge!
>>7360310
>>7360470>and includes details (such as indications of the bones of the foot) that are usually left out of cartoon art.to be fair its foot fetish artwork so the awkward distribution of detail is very much intentional cuz ur eye is meant to be drawn there
>>7360483it becomes easier to draw from referneces when you know how the construction/anatomy works
>>7360470>The toes look large and masculine>The fingers look like they're retaining waterThis is just that artist's style. He draws body parts chunky and bloated. Maybe the fact that he traces models has something to do with it, or maybe he has odd sensibilities.
>>7360522There's a way to draw plump body parts while still having girl characters keep their femininity.
>>7360538if I drew that, /ic/ would crucify me
>>7360338You can't copyright poses, retard.
>>7360299Good artists borrow. Great artists steal.
>>7360553wasn't talking poses or referring to the OP image. I could have been clearer, use ref, but don't copy so closely that it puts you in hot water. we don't sign our posts here btw.
>>7360562Bad artists steal. Great artists adapt.
>>7360342damn, everything's purpose is money nowadays. art is dead
>>7360562>>7360570God artists make you use them as the source.
>>7360299On the paper
>>7360299I use reference all the time but it's just bad form to copy it 1:1. You are making no creative decisions at that point and it's just lame. Unless you took the photo yourself, set up the lighting, did the makeup and hair and the pose.
It's ok to copy 1:1 if you are still creating something of your own with it. Like for example when you draw a comic, it's ok to copy from references sometimes.However you also can use references and turn them into another perspective. Just looking at the anatomy of things and then shifting the persective. Or just copying certain parts of the anatomy.
>>7360313>Artists have been doing it for centuries.I wonder how much animators from the golden era did that.I'm reading the Animator's Survival Kit and author puts emphasis on learning the fundies and anatomy before trying to animate. I wonder how much of shit they are.
>>7360711Old school 2d animators can illustrate really, really well. They use reference for all their animations (you can google and find all their animation reference footage for the old disney movies) but they are far from 1:1 copies. They exaggerate, and stylize everything.Modern 3d animators though? They absolutely can't draw worth shit. i went to the best animation school in the country (ringling) and had multiple animation friends and none of them could draw past a beginners level. Their animations looked professional though. And so did their models but they had no drawing skills whatsoever. It was the same for the game design majors. They could all sorta draw but 3d modelers are not illustrators. Even at the studios I worked at, there were only one or two 3d modelers that could do illustrations. And these were AAA developers too.
>>7360721>They use reference for all their animationsSo they're kinda full of shit.Yeah, yeah, they change stuff around, but that's most probably easier than remembering the human figure and drawing the poses from imagination.>3D animatorsShame about them. Ability to draw would be useful to quickly sketch character prototypes and thumbnailing at very least.
>>7360721>none of them could draw past a beginners level. Their animations looked professional though. And so did their models but they had no drawing skills whatsoeverok now you really have to explain further here. yes naturally i've no idea of anything about animation, but how can you draw poorly, and yet become good animators?? aren't you supposed to be uhh drawing well to even animate? to understand how objects and anatomy and form move gracefully enough to be in a well-done animation?so what skills exactly do I need to nurture to be a good animator, if draftmanship isn't one of them?
>>7360299guess that explains why they always look so floaty. Even the hand that in the original is only that way because she's grabbing onto the mattress is just awkward and floaty in the drawing.
>>7360375>His values looks like it's trying to replicate 3D renderingThat's because he fucking uses 3D dolls. If you look at the OP picture you'll see it has all of the hallmarks of a /beg/ porntard.>Traced parts from actual porn>Sausage finger hands from a 3D model>Flat shovel anime face that clashes with everything, bonus points for sameface
>>7360375It's so dumb he uses hard lines on shadows but not on the artificial eyelashes. Makes the eyes look sloppy.
>>7360711why do you think they make character sheets, just for fun?
>>7360737I have no idea. At ringling, the animators don't even have figure drawing as part of the curriculum. They do have some basic illustration classes for character design, architecture, and props but it's all pre-production work so it's all really rough work. Some people are better modelers than others while others are better at the technical stuff. The animation program is illustration for the first year, modeling for the second year where you learn how to use maya, blender, or zbrush, and then they start their thesis their junior year. Making models, writing the story, storyboarding everything, filming your friends acting out the scenes for visual reference. ect. Then their final year they actually animate everything and put it together. So they spend 2 years to make a 5 minute short portfolio reel.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyLvI_LXmTsI went to ringling for illustration. We had fundamentals every year. Figure drawing for 4 years, figure painting for 2 years, mixed media classes doing still lives and illustrations. The 4th year is when you put together your final portfolio in whatever field you want to specialize in. I went in for fashion, so I made a bunch of fashion design in my final year which got me a concept art position at EA when I graduated. Other people focused on book illustrations, or storyboarding, or tattoo work, or whatever.
>traces pizza>no one calls you outIt's that simple
>>7360737anecdotal but ive seen some 2d animators on twitter with much better form/perspective than proportions and anatomy. those are probably more important
>>7360299where do you find the time to draw with these stupid questions
>>7360299This is so boring and lifeless. It's just porn for the sake of porn with (insert popular character). Where's the worshipping and idealization? Art fags of the past would compress all their lust and desire in a single artwork, you could tell how horny the motherfucker was while painting it. This, on the other hand, is just boring. I doubt Gura is even his muse. It's so lifeless and generic from a sexual and artistic perspective. I despise AI wiping out artists but perhaps there is a good side to it because honestly, I don't see a single difference between this guy's work and a random AI porn image; that's how little self-expression there is. Art porn in general is so flat nowadays. Everybody just focuses on the purely sexual aspects and forgets the erotic part. Where' the story, the theme, the self-expression? Damn cowards!
>>7360299>draw exactly from reference>change the clothes, hair and face to anime character>get fameWhy /ic/ fags cannot comprehend this simple fact
>>7360299i don't think there's anything wrong with it but what it tends to cause is limitation in skill. for example, in that picture the tail is just laying there, it doesn't look attached to the figure. could have done a bit better if you had that "see through" practice.
>>7360875screenshotting this reply because ive never been able to really nail why even as a porn artist myself i just have almost no interest in most internet erotic artists until now
>>7360923I reached the point where I can only appreciate porn/erotica art in traditional render, even in black and white graphite or charcoal, as long as its traditional I can appreciate the art, even if its a fanart of popular character. I had enough with all these photoshop overlay layer and saturation sakimichan type of shit, and no, its not even because of AI thing, but mediocrity. I'm tired of mediocrity
A a certain point I realized that there is no reason for me to draw porn, because real porn already exists and will always be better (for me at least). There are feelings which fit much better to art. Some feelings are more impactful in real life, some feelings are more impactful in movies, some feelings are best fitted to art.
>>7360925>>7360875start posting your favorites?? i wanna see
>>7360299shes smell
>>7360775It's for remembering details. They still get poses from other refs.
>>7360775They dont need a character sheet when they have a guy whose job is to just fix proportion errors
>>7360299>Where do you draw the line between referencing and copying?When it's outright tracing.
>>7360875He has to produce these images week in and week out. Soul tends to take a hit when you're on that kind of schedule.
>>7360875Thank fucking god somebody says it. There's so much NSFW artists that somehow lack ANY amount eroticism in their art despite their subject matter.I'm tired of seeing the flood of that passionless shit hide the real gems out there
>>7360875I agree. Its basically impossible to find genuine erotic art now.
>>7361644>>7361591>>7360875How do I improve in coom art then. unironicallydo i have to be in a much more hornier state?? is nofap beforehand for a week the way to go now?
>>7361649My advice is your coom art should tell a story. JoeL Jurion does this very well imo.
>>7361654This makes it more erotic somehow.
>>7362029
>>7362037sex... imagine the possibilities
>>7360299So is the OP image a good or bad thing to do?
>>7362087yeah
>>7360299When it's based on other people's hard work. A real life post takes zero effort to do so it's "free for the public" but nothing special compared to inventing images from nothing.Referencing is for logicality. Making sure it's bound to reality, while being stylized.Copying is for consistency, best utilized in animation. Both aren't a problem, if your source is public domain shit like real life imagery. I still suggest a famous image by some photographer should be credited if you're profiting off from it, but otherwise, as a free study, it's harmless.Copying other peoples' drawings however is how I see this as a problem, because I value their hard work and ripping that off instead of learning how to do things on my own is scummy and fuels the evil AI arguments these bad faith takes has lead to ever since the 2000s. If you're not going to actually take something useful from the work you're taking from, like understanding their process or struggle like they struggled to get to where they are, that's dehuman behavior and trying to take credit from their efforts, their time, their identity, and going as far as to monetize off if it? Yeah, you're a shithead.
>>7362029I know what you meant.
>>7360538You obessing over ideal femineity is why a lot of people think you're evil.Dial back the autism. That fucking image alone is hardly human on average.
>>7360737>ok now you really have to explain further here. yes naturally i've no idea of anything about animation, but how can you draw poorly, and yet become good animators?? aren't you supposed to be uhh drawing well to even animate?No. What he means is drawing a comprehensible image /= animation. Animation itself is the act of the pacing and illusion of motion from 2D shapes. You don't need a clean illustration to make each frame of animation make sense, in fact it works in animators best interest to make less "clean" images if they wanna sell the feeling of motion and action in animation. It just depents mostly what are you aiming for. The most "dynamic" of animation uses less "clean" character illustrations, while the more "static" (as in, how Anime does it) is used for more informative aka talkative scenes that require less movement and thus, cleaner, clearly artwork of the characters as if you're looking at a still illustration. Most you'll see in motion here would be just the mouth and eyes.
>>7360299>ITT: Seething permabegs with 5 patrons on patreonYour seething is delicious.
There is no line. Imagine you want to draw a sexy pose for a girl. You start envisioning it, experimenting with sketches until you get something close, but not quite there. So you try over and over. After a while, you finally create a drawing that’s perfect, exactly as you pictured it in your mind. But lo and behold, there’s already a photo out there that matches it exactly. In fact, if you had a model, you could’ve set up that same shot yourself. Instead, you had to go through a ton of sketches to get it right, just as you imagined it.But if that photo existed before you even started drawing, what's the issue with copying it? You pictured it just like the photo. There’s absolutely no harm in copying it. Anyone who criticizes you for it probably believes that once a pose is drawn, it shouldn’t exist in real life—which is absurd. Are people going to stop walking just because someone drew them in a walking pose? No. So if you can draw someone walking and people still walk afterward, it’s perfectly reasonable to trace or copy that pose. There’s no logic in saying you can’t copy something that already exists exactly how you envision it.And if copying it 1:1 is somehow the problem, that shouldn’t be an issue either. Art, at its core, is about capturing an idea or vision, and if someone has already created a reference that aligns with your exact vision, why wouldn’t you use it? Artists throughout history have studied and recreated existing works to refine their skills or capture something perfectly.Copying 1:1 doesn’t detract from originality if the final work reflects your unique interpretation or purpose. And let's be real: even a copy becomes something new when it’s filtered through your own hand, your style, and your medium. If the end result feels true to your vision and stands as your expression, then copying 1:1 just becomes another tool in the artistic process—not something that somehow invalidates the work or makes it less real.
>>7363584Didn't know politicians browsed /ic/
>>7363584Apply this to literally any other subject and it falls apart. Academic integrity? No, that other guy's ideas are mine, and I just added some shit to it. That other guy's scientific theory doesn't exist until I say it does because I don't need to tell people I used it as a basis, he deserves nothing.Writing? Well, this story fits just fine with what I had in mind already, totally, so this story is now mine with a few things attached. What other author? I retyped this sentence, so the work is mine even if I changed an adjective or two to fit my "aesthetic".Why is it that visual artists are apparently the only group of people on the planet who don't deserve to have their authorship respected? Yeah, poses are given a little more leeway, but the respect and knowledge earned by the toil of creative invention is completely demolished. You've done nothing interesting other than retype a novel with your own names. You did not create the plot, you did not make the hard decisions, you are a template monkey with extra steps.While don't we just dename every single theory and philosophical idea into generic newspeak traits, after all, all that matters is we build upon it's ideas. What even is Rome? I only know the word democracy.
>>7363639Correction.Greece.
>>7363639How does it feel to have entertained an AI-generated message?
>>7363639copyright et al. is made for convenience to reward pioneers betterit's already cut-throat in research that, unless you're on the favoured side of nepotism, you get neither adequate recognition nor rewards if you reach same discovery someone else reached mere days before, even if your methods were completely differentin art, pioneer's discovery gets the most traction if presented right because you're also discovering a way to express the impression from it, there's inherent double regulation with no deranged lawsuits needed, so no I won't stop breathing or copying whenever I preferimagine all cavemen thinking >no, no matter the reason, I won't draw symbols that are too close to Grug's symbols and language doesn't get formed. what a non-disscussion
>>7363646No, I will draw Grugs symbols, tell others Grug made those symbols first, and develop a friendship with Grug as we bond over pioneering new symbols.
>>7363643It's just some animal that happened to learn appealing things. No point in wasting human words on it.
look how more soulful his art is when the reference is not as blatant
>>7363728>old hags>soulfulDoubt
>>7362184kys troon
>>7363728>porn trash with some fat ugly subhuman>le soulfulkill yourself
>>7364802pyw
>>7360299Well, if it's not traced. Though you really should switch it up a little. Though, I suppose if you were trying to study that position it's fine to draw it exact.Basically just don't trace
>>7360375she reminds me of gorillaz kek
>>7360375I really don't like the way he draws faces
The most compelling reason not to trace is that it doesn't look good and most people can tell right away. I think OP's thumbnail is swiped more than traced. And yes his work is better when he abuses the reference less.
>>7360567If I stab you do you promise me that not only will you die but it'll hurt really badly?
>trace an amazing looking pussy>somehow make it worse in 2DUnforgivable. The artist needs to kill themselves
>>7360875this is why a poorly drawn nsfw image with energy is hotter than a perfectly rendered naked woman. fappers know what I mean
>>7364802what is with this board and missing the fucking point? If someone posts a painting of a fruit basket, you motherfuckers will say it sucks, and when asked why you'll say "there's a grapefruit in the painting, I hate grapefruit" like holy shit you guys are beyond stupid.
>>7360875Based and soulful
>>7369299Checked
I never understand how anyone can get caught using references. There are billions of porn videos on the internet, you can just pause a random scene and trace that. No one will ever notice and even if someone did, they could never prove it.
>>7369639The creator can always tell if they aren't also a hack.
>>7369642All creators are hacks
>>7360299when it looks like you drew the girl on the right in gura cosplay instead of gura making that pose.
>>7360875this, you really nailed it these souless artists
>>7363728god I wish I was her
>>7360875>Art fags of the past would compress all their lust and desire in a single artwork, you could tell how horny the motherfucker was while painting itwouldn't that just be lust a desire fore the sake of lust and desire, their basically no difference.
>>7369950>her
>>7360711Anon, there's great value in studying the fundamentals of construction and anatomy of the human figure. This knowledge greatly helps you when you use reference material, the understanding of how the human figure works is a tool to bend it to your liking and to prevent you from making grand mistakes (which happens a lot with people who blindly copy reference material like in the OP)It's not a one or the other kind of thing, these are all tools in your artist toolbox, use all of it, study all of it and your work will be better and more solid.
>>7360875The difference is that Lossow was a well rounded artist in the classical sense, putting decades of experience to work making a painting that clearly demonstrates a mastery of fundamentals to create a piece that is more than mere coom bait but stands as a work of artistic merit in its own right.The use of light and dark controls where and how the eye travels over the canvas, couples with compositional elements that creates a foreboding and secretive feeling that richly contrasts with the subject matter so that the entire work oozes with that so-wrong-yet-so-right sensation inherent in any socially incorrect coupling. An understanding of anatomy to render the human form as it actually is rather than as some heavily stylized fantasy plus small details like the nun’s thigh being the only exposed skin yet also serving as the lightest compositional element drives the eroticism without being heavy handed in its delivery, the overall muted and earthy color palette contrasting with the cherry red blush of the nun’s face as she is gripped in the throes of coitus represents the accent point that serves as the keystone compositional element tying the entire work together as a cohesive visual, while the monk’s face receding into shadowy obscurity allowing the audience to step into his shoes which constitutes the hallmark of male escapist fantasy so crucial for building that bridge of emotional connection. The entire piece is accentuated by a layer of irony, that the artist intended for this to be a provocative political statement that we’re supposed to interpret as being wrong, in fact has the residual effect of making the painting so utterly tantalizing in its wrongness that its erotic elements become impossible to ignore, producing a complex emotional reaction anyone even remotely tempted by socially incorrect couplings would recognize almost instantly.This is one of those “once in a generation” grade paintings that people remember for a reason
i draw the line at AI doing the same quality of work than kayle with no effort
>>7371900>No effortEvery time you prompt an AI for an image it uses a bottle of water we will never get back.
>>7371900ew
>>7360338He means morally, not legally
>>7371900Is that shit retouched AI???
>>7373733no, this shit come straight from computers, and this dosnt even need anything else than the prompt but im pretty sure with enough knowledge on AI you can replicate kyle style 100% pefect match
