I was thinking about how a lot of artists look down on people who use photograph to make their paintings, be it taken from the internet or made by the artist to work from. But then it dawn on me that these people are ALSO copying, they're just doing it from life. Is there any difference between copying a portrait from a photo and working with the live model? I don't think so. Both are COPYING.I think artists are supposed to create things, not imitate them. I think this all began with the impressionists and their fetish from painting out in nature. I feel like the ability to create a figurative painting is only alive with video game and digital artists who study drawing enough to enable them to create anything they want out of their heads. For years I felt like all I should do is work from life, set my still life arrangement and paint or use a photograph, that my job as an artist was to simply copy reality and I always hated it. Perhaps I'll give it a chance to studying drawing once more and begin creating my paintings from my head even if they suck.What do you all think?
>>7407450Ima keep it a buck, while painting from life has some benefits, the only people who shill it relentlessly do it from a place of elitism. The same kind of person who also scoffs at digital art or anything that isn't traditional. They'd even look at avant-garde trad techniques with disdain. I think what matters most is that you're getting what you intend from a study or practice.
>>7407450i do oil paintings from photos. My paintings would look so shit if was working from life. Everythings changing and i cant focus. Hats off to people who can do it
>>7407450>I think artists are supposed to create things, not imitate themthe live painting is much better for this, since it allows you to observe the subject from different angles, with different lighting etcyou will never be able to get that information from just a photo, you can even get some false information from a photo, like the colors or formit will be a blunt and a bit overblown example, but take the moonlook at it with your eyes and then snap a photo with your phonewhich gives you a better experience?
>>7407458Painting from life is what people who don't understand color theory or principles/ lack imagination do since they can't imagine what something is supposed to look like or do.
Caravaggio was actually mocked by his contemporaries because he could only paint well with models and not out of his head. At that time, it was disgrace.
>Printer>ArtistPick one. One of these paints what they see in front of them, the other paints what others cannot see.
>>7407460oh so you're retarded? ok.
>>7407450No, what has killed art is people copying what they're TOLD to or what they THINK they should draw. The westoid mindset destroys that passion, that almost childlike spark to want to learn to create art in the first place, and replaces it with joyless >"I like sexy anime women, maybe I should copy pictures of them, see where it takes me. Seems like fun!">"NO, BOXES/FUNDIES/FIGURE STUDIES FROM DAY ONE">"O-okay...">Gives up a month later with all passion for drawing utterly extinguished
>>7407474They were never gonna make it, weeb degenerates. Neither will you.
>>7407479You do not draw
>>7407488>asg
>>7407472Your offense is all the proof I need to know you can't draw let alone paint from imagination. >L. >M. >F. >A. >O.
>do life drawing classes>already did a ton at this point so I would play with the forms>teacher critiqued that I don't copy one for one and Vipplu the fuck outta every poseThat's the point isn't it? To feel the forms to push to what is aesthetically pleasing? I found most art teachers have a very weird view of life drawing, seeing it more as a still life class than a figure drawing class.
>>7407493here you go>cant post a drawing in turn
>>7407503Lol.
>>7407505>cant post a drawing in turn>resorts to mockery>every time
>>7407507I mean I could, but at this point it seems pretty stupid.
>L.>M.>F.>A.>O.
>>7407511I'll let you keep believing that your drawing is good buddy.
>>7407515
>>7407522Notice how the only response you got was from me. Think about it buddy.
>>7407450midwit takeart is a lot like dreamsyou can only really dream about things you've seen before in some formand you haven't really seen something as an artist until you've drawn it
>>7407524Why are you still here?
>>7407503
>>7407564at least I'm on there. You are nowhere to be seen. Can't even put me in my place with a quick sketcherino
>>7407564Kek
>>7407567>>7407524>>7407505>>7407509why hasn't this faggot posted their work
>>7407571first post is me, who did
>>7407564I'm yoinking this
>>7407567You already put yourself in your place
>>7407577you could have spent this valuable time drawing stuff
>>7407564SOVL
>>7407581Believe it or not, I've been drawing, I just haven't entertained you scribbles.
>>7407585>L.>M.>F.>A.>O.
>>7407564God damn, I'm certain I'm right at the bottom of that valley atm. Good to know it'll get better eventually
>>7407588You made this by the way>>7407503
>>7407564The moral of the story is if you're going to talk shit you better not miss.
>>7407591>>7407583>>7407577>>7407575>>7407581>hasn't posted his workI shiggydiggy
people who refuse to do studies act like art isn't something they want to do for the rest of their life
>>7407450>Both are COPYING.Putting it in capital letters doesn’t make it true faggot. Drawing from life isn’t just “copying life.” Sometimes when constructing a figure you’re going to draw things that aren’t necessarily visible to the untrained eye for both artistic and edifying purposes. But whatever, anons in the life drawing thread explain it better than I can: >>7346469Go draw a figure from photo reference, and then from life. You’re lying if you say it’s the same thing.
>>7407522>>7407503based
>>7407503asg fags could never
>>7407527This, drawing a person from photograph isn’t drawing a person. It’s drawing a photo of a person. People who are scared of life drawing like OP don’t realize that part of it, a HUGE part of it, is also recording where YOU, the viewer, are in physical space. That’s a large part of how Kim Jung Gi mastered perspective. He drew from life all the time and his life drawings are far, far more than just “copying” life.
>>7407605the tl;dr to this pretentious shit is >if the model moves your life drawing still has to make sensewhich is fair and is surely a great way to learn about consistency and all that but it's totally irrelevant for drawing a still life, that banana isn't going to sag its shoulders
>>7407460Just say you’re scared to paint from life faggot. >I p-paint from photos c-cuz I don’t lack imagination!!!What the fuck does this profound cope even mean.
>>7407610he's scared to post a drawing in the thread. Imagine how scary drawing from life would be for him
>>7407610>>7407613Let's post socials
>>7407614you first dumb cunt. You're bad at drawing if you don't
ITT trad fags getting butthurt
>>7407564A tale as old as time I'm afraid
>>7407609You've never drawn a live model, have you? It's not just copying. Pic related is a good example. You're likely not going to be able to draw like this (i.e like someone with a strong understanding of construction and anatomy) by just "copying". Copying doesn't give you a good understanding of the forms of what you are drawing, which is why drawing isn't easy. If it were just copying it would be easy, but to understand nature (which comes from lots of life drawing) is more than just "copying" and "drawing what you see." Go to a Russian art academy or any centuries old european art academy and try to say that drawing from life is just "copying" and they'll laugh at you. If anyone disagrees feel free to post your work, and you have my word that I'll post mine or I'm a gigantic faggot who doesn't know what he's talking about and my advice will should be discarded.
>>7407618I agree with your take. Though if you're the person who posted their scribbles earlier your take is moot even though it's a point I agree with simply because those aren't that great and tarnish my otherwise neutral opinion about you.
>>7407621I'm not, though I'd be more than happy to post my work as I've done many times on this board before if anyone crabs. I've stopped posting my work off the bar because I'm tired of getting crabbed by /nodraws/ and anons that dont PTW.
>>7407624You don't have to unless you'd like to. The way you talked about the process says more than enough about where you are in your journey and it leads me to believe you're relatively skilled.
>>7407624>I'd be more than happy to post my work>I'm tired of getting crabbed by /nodraws/ and anons that dont PTWthat's all this thread is
>>7407618The guy you're having a conversation with doesn't feel confident enough to post his work
>>7407564All the masters say you should be drawing from life. He's a beginner listening to the masters as he should, whereas you delude yourself into thinking you know better than them. This graph describes you better than him
Sometimes I wish IC had some kind of dueling system. You could right click on another anon to begin the duel then it chooses a random topic and subject you both have to draw. Then an Oekaki window would pop up. There'd be a specified time limit and then you post and other anons rate it. It'd be sick
>>7407633he said i couldn't draw from imagination so i did a 10 minute drawing from imagination and posted it. He hasn't been able to post a single reply since
I drew this from life how did i do
>>7407632Your 'shading' makes him look like a werewolf
>>7407638Doesn't count it's digital. You're only allowed to draw from life and in trad.
>>7407639your shading makes you look like you don't draw
>>7407641I mean surely by this point you realize it's more than just the original anon talking to you
>>7407642you replied to your own dunning krueger image like 4 times and maybe one other guy did too. How do i know? You didn't pyw.
>>7407642I doubt he does. He's already proven he is proudly planting his flag firmly at the dunning-kurger peak so I wouldn't put much stock in his iq
>>7407640What about this one? It's a digital painting of a trad painting but with a plastic jug
>>7407647Doesn't count, not art, still digital, not from life. Unironically go kys.
>>7407646? I've never said i was a great artist, because i/m not. I made a wager that you wouldn't pyw if i did and you didn't.
>>7407650>He still thinks he's arguing with one guy
>>7407647It's joever buddy.
>>7407651People that dont post their work might as well all be grouped into one big pile of nothing because that's what they add to this board. You can go back to your gay snide comments now
>>7407503>>7407522Unironically mogs you>>7407647
>>7407655Well that's not very nice
>>7407655he's posting his work
>>7407638>>7407657I mean i also posted this from life but you said it was trash. Trad fags really are mean
>>7407658Nah, it's only the outspoken ones that are fags. Most trad chads are chill af. Keep doing you king, art is art, there doesn't have to be this air of elitism around what you should or shouldn't make and how you go about doing it.
>>7407658I like your work anon, and I'm (mostly) trad until I am confident enough in my fundamentals to go all in on digital. But how did you draw >>7407638 from life? You were in a field with your tablet in the sun? How did you see?
>>7407662Ok I lied a little haha, it was loosely inspired. I was on a hike and sun was rising so I whipped out my phone and painted it.
>>7407450>for years I felt like all I should do is work from lifeBut you never worked from life
>>7407660That wasn’t me. I’m the other guy that posted his work
>>7407658Whoops>>7407673 was meant for you
>>7407494You are correct and your teacher is wrong. Simple as. Figure drawing is very different than a still life, you should not just be copying.
>I HAVE AN OPINION >can't draw
>>7407460I guess you're right.
>>7407460Yeah I’m sure your anime Lolis “from imagination” are better than anything Michelangelo or Tiepolo, or pretty much any famous artist ever, could do since they all drew from life.
>>7407604I'm not against studying a model or drawing from life, but I was always more interested in painting what's in my head and learning the skills to get there. And the fact is that even the atelier training you get in Florence or Chicago will have you do tons of cast drawings of hands and marble masks and models. It's not what I want to learn.
>>7407991>wants to draw something he """""""sees"""""""" in his head>can't draw an inanimate object he can literally see
>>7407994are you high or just incredibly stupid?
>>7407450>I was thinking about how a lot of artists look down on people who use photograph to make their paintingsDk why you're thinking this because it isn't true
>>7407991>heckin art schools always tryna teach me those darn “fundamentals” and successful techniques used for centuries >bah!>i shall draw whatever my woefully untrained eye deems artistic!Let me guess, references are cheating as well?
This has to be a bait thread. >"Painting from life has killed art" man has painted from life quite literally ever since the dawn of art but chud from 4chan surely knows better.
>>7408004It's almost as if elitists are a vocal minority that everyone should fucking ignore.
>>7408006You do realize what you just said is like saying we walked everywhere since the dawn of time why use cars.
https://youtu.be/Aoz4B9rWOMY?t=499
>>7407450>Is there any difference between copying a portrait from a photo and working with the live model? I don't think so. Both are COPYING.Yes, drawing from life requires understanding form more and forces you to translate something occupying real 3d space onto a flat page. A photo does the job of flattening an object for you which takes some of the decisions about composition and process out of your hands and makes it for you. Is this the difference between you and becoming pro? No, but it is useful to know where our education might be incomplete
Erm guys, I want to do a study of a castle but I don't have any kingdoms here in America. Anons on 4chan said that i need to study from life to be able to understand the forms I'm dealing with. Am I fucked? Am I doomed to never understanding how to construct a castle on a 2d plane unless I visit one in person? Fuck
>>7408005I really believe we have a crisis in education. You have been literally incapable of understanding the spirit of my post. I don't think anything is "cheating". I don't look down on people who work from photos or from models. My point is: artists who painted the figure would study anatomy from medicine books to learn about muscles and their insertions and then they would paint.Do you think this painting was done with models??????????
>>7408018It's a common theme in this thread if you read through it. People seem unwilling to accept that drawing studies, understanding and drawing from imagination are all part of one process. They all work together for the end goal that should be, being able to create your own paintings/drawings from the knowledge garnered from the studies you do.
>> 7408011This analogy doesn’t make any fucking sense. Anon never said anything about preserving the old at the expense of the new. What “technological advancements” are you even talking about in art that’s comparable to the car??>>7408014Don’t worry little fella, I’m sure you can reach your desired goal just fine using 2D reference. However, someone doing a study of a castle from life as well as reference would likely do it better than you ;)>>7408018No dumbass. It was done by someone who has studied live models extensively. Obviously??
>>7407618Tips/Critique: The cords of the neck (sternocleidomastoid) should originate just alongside the pit of the neck. Yours (the one that's visible) seems to be going too far afield. There *is* a secondary portion that branches off to the clavicle, but the main thrust of the muscle is from the manubrium of the sternum.Also, you have too much distance between the pelvic point (ASIS) and the point from which the thigh begins. The rectus femoris muscle starts at the anterior inferior iliac spine, which is just an inch or so below ASIS. That's where you'll see the profile of the near thigh emerging in a pose like this. ASIS itself is the origin of sartorius, part of which is also likely to be visible from this aspect.Beyond those critiques, I would suggest working more generally in the early stages to establish the overall balance and proportions before going in to chisel out the structural elements. Otherwise, things get out of whack too easily.
>>7408003what matters is I'm not retarded enough to be you
>>7408018>Do you think this painting was done with models??????????It is not even remotely preposterous to assume the artist used live models for this, you dumb, dumb, uneducated human being. That’s just assumption, here’s the actual answer: yes. Phoneposting idc
>>7408018...he did paint from models, thoughare you retarded and think models need to match the painting 1:1 or something
>>7408024Cameras
>>7408037Cameras upped the advancement primarily of photography, if you can believe it. In (classical) art (i.e painting) , they are still just a tool. So the analogy still doesn’t make sense.
>>7408029>posting tips/critique without posting your own workKek imagine writing all that just to have your opinion immediately discarded.
>>7408042Let me larp. I failed in life. Larping as an expert here is my only solace.
>>7408041Photography has allowed artists to paint a wide range of subjects they would have otherwise not been able to study. I'd say it's become even more of a common idea in the 21st century than back then. People still walk, just as artists still paint from life, but studies from photos are simply much more common in these days.
>>7408045Then why has art become less valued in society since the invention of the camera? Leading back to the absurdity of OP’s statement that “life painting” has killed art.
>>7408018In all the great periods of representative art, artists studied from life. When it became possible to do so, they also dissected cadavers or attended dissections, and/or studied from anatomy books.In some periods and movements, art is more poetical or fantastical, and in others it is more literal. When the aim is the former, study is done to understand the laws of nature, and the construction and mechanics of living things, so they can be re-created by the artist at will without reference to models. When the latter (literal representation) is the aim, study is done mainly to train the eye and to practice. Truth to what is observed is the main principle.In general, earlier periods of art lean towards the poetical. The ancient Greeks clearly understood human anatomy and motion, but cared more about ideal beauty and proportion than depicting real people with their flaws and deformities. Similarly, the artists of the Italian Renaissance often worked partly or entirely from imagination. You can see this in the figures of Pollaiuolo, with every muscle in relief, as if the artist is showing off the knowledge gained from dissecting cadavers; or the compositions of perspective-obsessed Paolo Uccello, who placed his objects, with unnatural uniformity, in such alignment that they converge to a single vanishing point.The masters of the 19th century academy moved towards a more literal representation, and greater use of models (and even photographs) but did not altogether abandon poetical aims. Bouguereau made truthful studies of his models, then idealized them in his compositions, removing belly fat, beautifying their faces and breasts. He used models to strengthen the believability of his paintings, but could modify and invent figures with ease.The modern academic realists, many of them, do not practice drawing from imagination and are entirely dependent on models and references.
>>7407462Interesting, any source on that??
>>7408042You don't need to trust me, retard. You can look these facts (not opinions) up in any decent anatomy book.
>>7408058Bouguereau da original lolifag ong.
>>7407462Yet his work is still in museums and will be considered masterpieces for another million lifetimes. And how do you think his contemporaries got that good? They drew the figure from life a lot. Draw from life.
>>7408058One caveat about the moderns:The poetical tradition was carried on into the mid-20th century by the great comic artists like Hal Foster, Frank Frazetta and John Buscema. These artists had to learn to draw from imagination out of necessity, because of the constraints of working under tight publication deadlines. All art is a product of time and circumstances.
>>7408067Makes you wonder how art will evolve to meet the advent of AI art.
>>7408061>more words>still no work posted
>>7408070
>>7408070I am not crabbing you. Why are you butthurt?
>>7408078Why won’t you just post your work? It’s moreso a statement against the problem of not posting work that plagues this entire board. You should post your work, ESPECIALLY if you’re critiquing just out of principle to make this board a more helpful place in general.
>>7408080I have myself argued that posting work should be mandatory on this board (as should some system of identifying posts that originate from the same source), but, as it is not, there is very little upside to doing so on an anonymous board.Regarding the matter at hand, if I were advising you on methods of practice or the surest path to improvement, I could understand you wanting to see my work. But I was only pointing out anatomical errors that any anatomist or surgeon, without any drawing skills, could have similarly identified. I try to be helpful and contribute something useful when posting here, even if it is kind of like pissing in the ocean.Maybe I will post something later. I work trad, so I would have to scan it, and to choose something that doesn't give away my identity (which doesn't really matter but I prefer not to lead the termites back to my home).
didn't read lol
I hope for your sake you two aren't the fags from yesterday. Just suck eachother oft at this point.
>>7408121>fantasizes about men sucking each other off>calls other people fagsGet outta the closet, anon!
>>7408125Ima take that as a yes. And i don't fantasize, your dad literally blew me last night
>>7408059I saw it on a documentary on YouTube.
>>7408215youtube is a historical source second only to wikipedia
>>7408228Wikipedia is fine if you go look at the linked sources.
>>7408244lol no it's extremely gay and selective, it will push "trusted" sources and delete "untrustworthy" sources I remember doing an essay on the mongolian invasion of japan, using the primary historian on japan in the west and it was just the japanese getting massacred until they were saved by wind then I go to wikipedia just to see bureibu samurai dabbing on mongolians with some literallywhos in citationsthen you have shit like taylor and irving going from the some of the most prominent living historians to flat earther status because they dared question the you know whatwikipedia is just reddit with more gay autism
>>7408228
>>7408252I meant that you need to check the sources too anon…
>>7408293hard to check a source that is forced off the page because ummmm ackcshootallee sweatie, that's a bigot and he's been debunked by the scientific community
>>7407460Painting from life is what people do to learn color theory and feed their imagination. But it's also a form of art on its own.I've *never* saw anyone drawing the figure from imagination as a highly skill academist.
HEY LIFE DRAWING FAGSGO AND LIFE DRAW A HIPPOGRYPH, AN AYY LMAO OR A DRAGON FOR MEI'LL TAKE A KOMODO DRAGON TOOGO AHEAD
>>7408433>LIFE DRAWING FAGScome model for me, I'll use your face for the back end
>>7408504>getting assblasted over "life drawing fags"are you usually such a sensitive little bitch, maybe plebbit would be more suitable for you?
>>7408535it was supposed to be>LIFE DRAW A HIPPOGRYPHthat's the joke, your face looks like a horse's assyes, I'm phoneposting
>>7408433The fact that people get this fucking angry over life drawing should tell you why you need to draw from life.
This painting was not made with models.
>>7408576You unironically sound exactly the schizos from /x/.
>>7408630Once again reaching, as you /nodraw/ fags usually do, to find a reason to not draw from life because you’re scared.
>>7408640Nobody is saying not to draw from life. I'm simply pointing out your schizod logic. "Everybody is trying to debunk me, so i must be right!" "Glowies in this thread trying to lead you astray". Do you need me to draw the comparisons for you concretely because you're that obtuse or can you use your critical thinking for one second and see how your logic is schizoid in nature without calling people who disagree with you a glowing. Did you know the world is full of differing opinions? That if you're in a bubble where everyone agrees with you you're in a cult? Did you know that? Are you that brain rotted?
>>7408644Reaching again. People on this board do tend to get angry and defensive when you recommend drawing from life. The assumption is that because of this common reaction, this tells you that it is likely because life drawing is a difficult task that reminds one that there are really no shortcuts to getting good at art, and people on this board want to believe that they are just one more loomis head or floating box from becoming a master artist. Otherwise, there is really no reason to get so upset at recommending drawing from life to improve. Especially because the anons on this board never say to ONLY draw from life, but to draw from life AS WELL as from imagination and reference. Whereas the flip side is commonplace (i.e anons telling people to NOT draw from life, presumably because it scares them). There is no other explanation for such a visceral and one sided reaction to such a simple truth that has pervaded the subject of fine art since its existence. Nothing schizo about it, hope this helps.
>>7408647Oh you're the life drawing schizo. The guy who makes the life drawing thread for himself and despite the fact has created an entire thread for themselves, isn't satisfied with the lack of attention and engagement so they trudge out of the thread to start shilling life drawing to other people.
>>7408655That’s not my thread, but my work is in there. It’s so sad that you dullards see recommending life drawing as “shilling”, and i mean i get why, it has been shilled. But “life drawing” to the masters and every reputable fine art academy in the world is just called “drawing.” It’s sad that the simple and obvious truth that life drawing is beneficial to artists even has to be shilled in the first place.
>>7408662You're definitely not that guy because you would have gone on a tantrum about posting your work so I'll say this. I agree that life drawing teaches some invaluable skills. I actually draw from life whenever I'm out and about. This thread and the arguments in it just amused me so I also wanted to also fling some shit. Studies are like exercise, everybody knows they're supposed to do them but don't. Bye bye
>meet cute girl>she finds out you draw>”oooh cool anon can you draw me tee hee”>can’t because i only draw from 2D referencesHaha glad this could never be me because i draw from life a lot.
>>7408058>The modern academic realists, many of them, do not practice drawing from imagination and are entirely dependent on models and references.Love your post, just one small caveat here: the russian students at Repin Academy draw from life, study anatomy from books like crazy, but one of their goals is to be able to draw from imagination, which they practice a lot as well. I've seen russian graduates draw full figures from imagination with incredible ease. Russians are the real deal.
>>7408680>"What do you mean? You've never drawn from life anon?" She utters incredulously>"N-no i only draws from photos... the skills i developed only work... when viewing photos s-sorry">"Pathetic, and you call yourself an artist? YOU sure as hell won't be feeling these forms!" She says with a scoff>"P-please you gotta understand">"Take a picture and feel those forms. WALKS AWAY">REEEEEEE IF ONLY I WAS ABLE TO DRAW FROM LIFE NYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
this was not done with models, least of all the dog
>>7407450painting from life people are just shilling their local life drawing sessions. Fucking jewish tactics I tell you
>>7408640Not that anon but I’m pretty sure people get mad because1. No life drawing near them. IOne suggestion is fine multiple is retarded. It’s like telling people to move.2. Multiple posters life saying you don’t need to draw from reference or books at all if you draw from life 3. Almost Nobody in the life drawing thread has good results. i have seen people say to do life drawing in other threads with good work. But they also actively draw from ref.
>>7408791>1. No life drawing near them.Reality doesn’t exist or something where they from? Do they live on the astral plane? >2. Multiple posters life saying you don’t need to draw from reference or books at all if you draw from lifeNever seen this and you wouldn’t be able to find a single post active or in archives that say this. >3. Almost Nobody in the life drawing thread has good results.Almost nobody in the entire board has good results. You included, since i know for a fact you’d never post your work. At least they post theirs. But i love the fucking copes you guys come up with to not draw from life. >the p-people on the 4chinks l-life thread don’t have good work s-so i d-don’t need to d-draw from life!!!Guarantee they’ll make more progress than those who draw only from reference (assuming they’re also drawing from reference)
>>7408817NTA, You're making sweeping generalizations about people. Your opinion is rightfully discarded.
>>7408819Didn’t make any wild generalizations in that post. You stupid or something buddy?
>>7408820>Almost nobody in the entire board has good results. You included, since i know for a fact you’d never post your work. At least they post theirs. But i love the fucking copes you guys come up with to not draw from life.>Guarantee they’ll make more progress than those who draw only from reference (assuming they’re also drawing from reference)Wow it's like you don't even realize what you're writing. Calling me stupid is just the cherry on top. I'll leave you to your devices, I'm going to go actually study- from references.
>>7408823How are either of those things wild generalizations? They’re both true. There are very few actual pros or intermediates on this board, and that anon won’t post his work. Watch. Go fuck yourself stupid, keep studying exclusively from reference and I’ll keep studying from life and reference.
>>7408825Here, I did this from imagination. I only study from references. Where's your work?
>>7408827Nice work! Nothing makes me happier than when anons ptw :) too bad i have to bully them into it. I’m away for the holidays so I can’t post my imagination work but here are a few of mine, i have more in the thread but too lazy to link them now. >>7407631>>7407630>>7407619
>>7408831You didn't bully me into anything. You're being a needlessly antagonistic asshole, I'm not the other anon you were talking to. Your drawings aren't bad but I think the fact of the matter is that any practice is better than no practice and that some people (like me) simply can't attend or view a lot of things irl to draw them, so they have to settle for references most of the time
>>7408835>I'm not the other anon you were talking to.Kek guess I was right then. >I think the fact of the matter is that any practice is better than no practice and Once again, I have literally never fucking ever claimed that drawing from reference is bad. There are plenty of days where I only draw from reference. Yes, I agree that practice is practice and any drawing is better than no drawing. But the antagonism goes both ways, anons get very upset and offended when you suggest life drawing on this board and some even claim (like OP) that life drawing is “bad.” Never seen someone say drawing from reference is bad, just that drawing ONLY from reference will likely never bring you to the level of a master but if that’s not your goal then ok. >some people (like me) simply can't attend or view a lot of things irl to draw them, so they have to settle for references most of the timeWhat does this even mean? You can’t go outside? You can’t draw what’s in your room? You can’t take out a cup or apple from your kitchen and draw that just to work on fundamentals? You said it yourself, any practice is good practice. Ask yourself, why is did literally every single master artist learn drawing from life (as well as reference but LOTS of life).
>>7408837>Why does everyone use a car these days when all the great people of history rode horses?
>>7408839Boy what a stupid analogy. Bouguereau, who OP posted and wrongly claimed didn’t use live models, was alive during and after the invention and wide spread use of the camera and still preferred working with live models. Norman Rockwell would use photo references to paint his masterpieces, but he studied life drawing for years and years at art school beforehand. Bridgman was obviously alive while the camera was already commonplace, and still preferred live models and taught from live models. So maybe ask yourself why that is? Perhaps there is a difference between studying live models and from photographs? Which is something absolutely any successful artist will tell you. Not even that one is better or worse, but there is a difference.
>>7408841Dog, you can't be for real. You know what a 1880s photograph looks like, right? You know that Bridgman was contemporary with the fuckin wild west cowboys? You couldn't just flip open ye olde pinterest and have an innumerable number of oriental broads to draw.
>>7408850There were actually plenty of high res photographs back then. They had plenty of masters reproductions to copy from as well and I’m sure with easy access, and they did, but they also drew from life. Bridgman died in the 1940s. I’m sure he could get his hands on decent photographs as he worked and studied at the art students league in NYC and wasn’t poor. He still preferred live models, and many masters do today. I dare you to go to a Russian art academy and tell them you’ll one day be just as good as them at the figure by exclusively copying from Pinterest.
>>7408851We don't just have Pinterest. We have films (in color too, what an idea!), Youtube, 3d models, and I think you're discounting just how much content exists on the internet. There is an inexhaustible amount of reference material for nearly anything you would ever want to draw. Free reference collections with hundreds of poses. Google Street View of nearly every road in America. Vacation photos of billions of people. All the torrented anatomy books you could ever want or need. It is not the 1940s. We do not need to do things like it's the 1940s.And I don't give a goddamn what Russia thinks is a good idea. Russia ain't here. And if you're >>7408831 supposed to be representing them, it's not exactly looking like a glowing recommendation.
>>7408856I’m on the internet all fucking day I know how much content there is on the internet. Once again, I draw from reference all the fucking time. I just also happen to draw from life. >And if you're supposed to be representing them, it's not exactly looking like a glowing recommendation.Only been drawing seriously for a couple years, think I’m making good progress. But unfortunately, I don’t take criticism from people that don’t post their work :/ to me crabbing with no work posted is an automatic admission that I’m likely better than you otherwise you would have posted your work for an easy slam dunk but you didn’t cuz it sucks doesnt it ;)
>>7408859YEARS?But fair, here.And to be clear, I draw from life pretty often. It is not actually that helpful. It's not useless, but the benefits really don't outweigh the convenience and cost. It's good in that if you stick someone in The Room Where People Draw and stare at them until they draw, they might actually draw. But it's mostly just a waste of time and resources for anyone who's already otherwise motivated.
>>7408869>YEARS?Yeah, I’m only 22 and am decently proud of the progress I’ve made in the past year. >It is not actually that helpful. It's not useless, but the benefits really don't outweigh the convenience and cost.Well if you only draw cartoons then yes, I guess. Otherwise that’s a weird blanket statement to make. Why not post some of your life drawings?
>>7408873You do you. But being so early in the game, and already being this opinionated is setting you up for failure. You do not have everything figured out. You do not have a frame of reference. You are in no position to say what is or isn't a good idea. I'm not trying to crab you, this is advice. I've been there, please stop, it's bad for you.>cartoonsYes, I draw anime. People like anime, as it turns out. Tastes have changed since the 19th century. How many people do you think get into art these days so they can draw live portraits? There is, unfortunately or not, a lot more to art besides charcoal anatomy sketches.>Why not post some of your life drawings?I do them for work, even if I had them on hand, it's not something I would care to or be able to show off. I do them mostly of lab equipment anyway, so it's not really anything to compare. Getting hands on and tinkering with stuff is useful if you want to draw it, yes. But it's not exactly tantamount you draw the microtome like one of your french girls. At least if you have good reference photos.
>>7408886 I don’t think I’m saying anything crazy to be considered overly opinionated. It’s not even my original opinion. Just that drawing from life is very helpful, and there is likely a reason why all of the masters, new and old, did it and preach it to this day. I’m not saying the goal should be to paint like an 18th century French master. It’s just about fundamentals. My goal is to make comics, and life drawing is entirely a fundamental skill especially when studying anatomy. I’ve seen comics from users on x or insta that I won’t @ cuz I don’t want to be mean that are people who have clearly only been studying comics instead of fundamentals and their work looks lackluster so that’s just something I’m trying to avoid. But if you wanna ignore that just because you’ve maybe been doing it a few years longer than me go head. We’ll just chalk it up to that’s what works for me and likely millions of others and I think I’ve made decent progress doing it but go ahead and crab. I personally believe David Finch’s (a new master) statement in the sticky that your figure drawings are the best measure/display of your art so I can’t really gauge your skill from your work though I don’t think it looks bad. Apples to oranges I guess. But if you wanna crab me go ahead unc.
>>7408888> I’ve seen comics from users on x or insta that I won’t @ cuz I don’t want to be mean that are people who have clearly only been studying comics instead of fundamentals@mlandart just say it.
>>7408888What you're preaching is tradition for tradition's sake, that's the issue. Not being your original opinion *is the issue*. You don't know one bit that it's actually true, stop being so attached to it. Yes, some people suck at drawing. Yes, some people really need to work on their fundamentals. But no, life drawing is not a fundamental. It's a process. You can use it to learn some fundamentals. But you can learn those same fundamentals in a dozen and a half different ways, and most of them work just fine. You don't have to make up reasons to feel superior to random people on instagram, just get better. Despite how ironically competitive /ic/ likes to be, it really truly is not a contest.
>>7408901Life drawing is a fundamental skill of drawing. You will not be able to truly “draw” unless you can draw from life.
>>7408901Let me also add that the other dozen and a half different ways to learn fundamentals are nowhere near as beneficial or effective as drawing from life.” You can learn perspective and anatomy from books all day long but until you can apply that knowledge to what you see in life, the formula for everything, then you can’t actually draw. It’s really that simple. Life drawing is most certainly a fundamental drawing skill, because drawing from life contains ALL of the fundies.
>>7408901>What you're preaching is tradition for tradition's sakeNo it isn’t. My skills are absolutely better than they would be had i never drawn from life. Many people have expressed improvement at including life drawing in their regiment. Sure, there is an element of tradition, but living masters today aren’t blindfolded idiots that just blindly go along with tradition. There is simply a difference between drawing from life and photo, I FEEL it when I do it. I’m not just blindly following tradition. Whether one is superior or not is irrelevant. They are different. And yes I should rephrase that it’s not a fundamental in and of itself, but it teaches fundamentals in a way that reference photos does not, as per my experience. It all comes down to my personal experience and you’re not going to argue me out of that, and I’m simply expressing that I don’t think it’s a coincidence that masters and other highly skilled artists have expressed the same thing. https://youtu.be/gidmwIYtEz8?si=xxBi-2WH60cZ0LfUhttps://youtu.be/bqm5Ar-UgEc?si=CynqJDW57JMf3fGV
>>7408907Drawing from photos is treacherous. It held me back for years. It teaches you to think in terms of lines and not forms/perspective, which is necessary to life drawing.
>>7408908>It teaches you to think in terms of lines and not forms/perspectiveYep, thinking in lines instead of planes is a terrible terrible thing for an artist. Even worse, you can get away copying a photo by just rendering (cringe). Glad you see the obvious truth now anon. It’s amazing this is even a debate. To anyone reading this who is unsure, pull up a picture of a cup online, draw that, then grab an actual cup from your kitchen, draw that, and tell me it’s the same thing (and if you do pyw)
>>7408907>https://youtu.be/gidmwIYtEz8?si=xxBi-2WH60cZ0LfU>8:35>”why is drawing from photos not good for you?”>”1. Copying two-dimensional photos inhibits an artist from seeing objects in volumes and space.”>”2. It prevents an artist from judging distances and perspective.”>”3. The artist doesn’t think and visualize the three-dimensional nature of an object, but subconsciously regards all objects and shapes two-dimensionally as seen in photos.”>”4.by copying flat images, an artist doesn’t make a constructive drawing; there is no comprehensive understanding of objects masses and their spatial relationship.”>”5. Drawing from photos forces an artist to draw what he sees rather than what one knows”>”6. It stops an artist from learning and following the traditional, time-proven, step-by-step, drawing methods, which have been perfected by many generations of fine artists starting from the old masters.”>”7. Working from photos prevents an artist from learning from his or her mistakes, and makes it impossible to improve drawing skills by analyzing and fixing those mistakes.”>”drawing from photos wires an artists brain to become a copier, not a creator.”Beautiful vid.
>>7408908>>7408910you guys are ridiculous
>>7408903What the hell does that even mean? That's a platitude. It's meaningless. It's on the label of the "Justdrawium" they're selling on late-nite TV infomercials. That's the kind of dumb shit you put in a Youtube thumbnail. Big red circle and arrow pointing at the word 'life'. Mr. Politician told me he's going to bring back TRUE DRAWING if you vote for him in the upcoming election.You see what I'm getting at?>>7408905And you know that... how? Did you try them all? And no, that's not how that works, like at all. You can't just point to a finished painting and go "THIS IS FUNDAMENTAL. THEY USED FUNDAMENTALS FOR THIS SO ITS FUNDAMENTAL". That's absurd. Fundamentals are fundamentals. Atom is not the electron.>>7408907Every way of drawing is different than the other ways. That's what makes them different ways of drawing, dingus. Whether or not you FEEL like it's the right way doesn't mean anything. In fact you just backpedaled on the fundamental thing. You're tripping over your own words trying to justify why you believe what you believe, but it is just a feeling, and you just gotta accept that. I really truly do not care what Steven Travers has to say, not from your mouth. He is not you, you are not him, do not talk for him.
>>7408921It’s not just a feeling lol. I posted two videos which propose compelling arguments as to why there is a difference. I described it as a feeling to me because I didn’t feel like delving into the logic of it because I knew there were professional artists who have already extensively talked about this online in better words than i could :)I backpedaled on saying life drawing is a fundamental, sure and rephrased it to say that it teaches fundamentals in a way that references do not. What’s that meant to prove? Once again, this has been debated for over a century among the fine arts community and it seems that life drawing is here to stay :) so no it’s not just a feeling. It’s perfectly logical if you actually watch the videos you’ll find compelling arguments as to how the human eye in tandem with the brain and the camera are different. I’m sure there are plenty more resources on this debate among fine art academia but you seem to have made up your stubborn mind so have a good night. >I really truly do not care what Steven Travers has to say, not from your mouth. He is not you, you are not him, do not talk for him.I didn’t. I just linked his video.
>>7408921What I said. The word fundamental means: a central or primary rule or principle. Life drawing fits this principle. Sure, life drawing is not a fundie in the same way that composition and anatomy are, but it’s a fundie in the sense that it is a critical element of drawing that every good artist must engage and every aspiring artist should if they plan on getting good. You can draw from books, reference photos, or even imagination, but until you can draw what is RIGHT in front of you, the shape, the form, or the idea that is the basis of EVERYTHING in those books, references, etc, you will not be able to truly understand drawing on a deeper level. Same way that observation is a fundamental skill, observing from life is a fundamental skill. You quite simply will not reach your peak as an artist unless you draw from life, and I stick by this. I also consider it a fundamental because same way that not drawing using perspective, values, etc, will hold you back…because they’re fundies…NOT drawing from life will hold you back. >This is fundamental they used fundamentals for this so it’s fundamentalYou can’t say that the painting itself is, but you can say that the ACT of engaging in life painting/ drawing is a fundamental skill. You can look at an artist’s work and tell when they do/don’t draw from life because of small nuances
>>7408921Since you seem to think this is something I’m just making up, and probably didn’t watch either video I linked (including the comment sections which are full of people saying they easily copied 2D references but struggled with life and then started drawing from life and saw their skills improve, which is a psyop according to you), here are some more examples of people finding a difference between the two: https://forum.svslearn.com/topic/7159/question-is-drawing-from-life-necessary>I can draw from photos or pictures a whole lot better than I can draw from real objects in life, including landscapes.> I struggle with this, too. I can copy a photo like there's no tomorrow, but copying a model standing in front of me has always been a challengeNow maybe these guys are retarded. Fine, I’ll buy that. But there are many other people saying the same thing online, and the burden of proof is then on you to explain what you might see simply as some strange unexplainable phenomenon in which people don’t see that life drawing and reference drawing are interchangeable. Do so, and I’ll concede.There’s already pretty much a consensus on this in the fine art community. So even calling it a debate is a stretch. Bet you can’t find me one professional artist that says drawing from life and photos is the same or of equal value where as I can find a million that say the opposite. But I get that to you this is all one big psyop or something, it’s genuinely head scratching to even find out what you’re trying to say.
>>7408919You guys actually watch this shit? This is tiktok slop quality. Every single one of those points is wrong somehow. I don't know how they did it, but they did. Is this video actually supposed to be rage bait? I'm pretty sure it's statistically unlikely that someone would be this completely wrong on accident.1. No it doesn't, monocular depth cues are a thing2. No it doesn't, monocular depth cues are a thing3. No it doesn't, monocular depth cues are a thing4. People still construct when drawing from photos.5. What?6. Who gives a shit.7. No it doesn't.8. No it doesn't.You got duped by a guy selling overpriced classes, sorry bud. >>7408925Eyes and cameras are different? Gadzooks, who knew? What valuable insight! Surely that must be it. The secret to drawing is "different things are different". Why did I never think of that? So tautological, so sophist, it's perfect. One for the ages, truly.>I just linked his videoYes, and failed to grasp what his video was saying apparently. You're in this conversation, you need to convince me. Steven Travers isn't in the room, nor is the guy who confusingly has like 6 separate websites for some reason.>>7408929>You quite simply will not reach your peak as an artist unless you draw from lifeDog, listen to yourself. You sound like you're trying to sell me a timeshare. Think that Art Academy guy is rubbing off on you.
>>7408955You have still neglected to explain the phenomenon where people who claim to have only drawn from 2D struggle with 3D, and why people who only draw from 2D see improvements when starting to draw from life. Explain why this phenomenon is all some big psyop conspiracy and I’ll buy all of the bullshit you’re spewing. Note that the burden of proof is on you due to the fact that it is already accepted that there is a difference between life drawing and reference drawing amongst the upper echelons of fine art academia. Note, also, that I am not even asking you to prove that there isn’t a difference, I am asking you to explain the phenomenon by which I and so many others find their to be a marked difference in drawing from life and from reference.
>>7408955You keep on pushing this “you sound like an ad” perspective, which is irrelevant to what I’m saying. We are simply trying to make you, and others, see the clear truth that drawing from life is critical to improvement and development. You saw the work of that guy, he posted, right? That’s not a level that you get to without drawing from life. Nobody is saying that you shouldn’t study books or draw from reference ever again, but using your eyes to draw has clear benefits that other forms of drawing don’t have. There is way more evidence supporting this than evidence against it (pic rel being one of them)
https://voca.ro/19AIuLqMPFcu
>>7408958The phenomenon is that most people are bad at art and you're cherrypicking. It's called confirmation bias. Nearly every art video has a comment section full of "*emojiface* so truuuuu". That don't mean it's the secret sauce. Beginners are beginners, everything that challenges their beliefs even slightly feels like it's groundbreaking.
>>7408962
>>7408963Then why do we never see the reverse? >I stopped drawing from life and my art improved TEN FOLD>OMG same!Find me an instance of this or try again.
>>7408965https://voca.ro/1e39DE6XIUBP
>>7408966Because no one's yet capitalized on the pro-choice art grift yet. Also just doesn't sound as profound if you don't try to justify it with traditionalist bullshit.
>>7408976>Also just doesn't sound as profound if you don't try to justify it with traditionalist bullshit.Nigger what? The entire 20th century up until now in the art world has been a rebellion against traditionalism. “Art is whatever you want maaaaann!!!!”Try again.
>>7408978Why are you typing and not speaking like the other anon
>>7408980They're a hypocritical elitist. It's a tale as old as time.
>>7408982>They’reThanks for not assuming my pronouns. Glad we can still keep things civil.
>>7408984This is online debate, I expect a modicum of decorum for my trans allies. We're 4chinners not monsters.
>>7408978DaVinki and Michaelangelo are some real post-modern dudes. One of them just stacked some chairs, it was mindblowing.Bridgman out there slinging that deconstructivist anatomical structure, avant garde as fuck.Rockwell, thinks you just don't have the media literacy chops to grok this one.Can you actually call anything real life, or is it just like a consensus of symbolic representations of our cultural context. Far out, makes you think.
>>7408986This nigga just ended racism fr
>>7408539your "joke" is pretty shit and unfunny tb h
>>7408576I'M STILL WAITING FAGGOT WHERE'S YOUR LIFE DRAWN KOMODO DRAGONHMMMM?????
>>7408995just like ur face
>>7409025Goteeeeeem
>>7409025https://voca.ro/1auBIDwZylm0
>>7409025https://voca.ro/1doaWHNmt6vd
>>7409029>>7409085Just stop already
>>7409099https://voca.ro/19FsGsSCLmd8
