Does your language have grammatical cases? If so how many?>Bulgarian>no (zero)
>>202579459>yes>7also Bulgarian is officially not a Slavic language, a language without cases cannot be Slavic
>crammatical
what's a case
>>202579459We've got 4 but many people just use 2,5
>>202579635A word is modified to indicate its relation to other words within a sentence. Languages without cases have to cope with strict word order.
>>202579502We make do without. Plus we still technically have them for pronouns.
This is why slavs can learn languages extremely easily.Their language is simply much harder, so piss easy english or romance languages with just a bunch of vowels and 20 letter alphabet are nothing.
>>202579772>enter articles>enter auxiliary verbs>enter phrasal verbsSlavs in shambles
>>202579772lmao
>>202579459I don't even know what a case is.
>>202579667>strict word order>tfLol
>>202579806funnily enough youre absolutely righti never had any issues but from academic experience these three would present most difficulty with learners. but those were pretty unintelligent individuals with no interest to learn anyway.
>>202579667Isn't ('s) a possessive case? E.g>The boy's apple
>>202579459I feel like Wołacz, the 7th case, barely exists or it just sounds like Nominative 99% of the time
>>202579459There are plenty of them but some are never used in informal speech
>>202579869German word order is only strict when it comes to verb position. I can say Der Arzt hilft dem Patient or dem Patient hilft der Arzt. You can't do that in English or French. It would literally mean two different things: The doctors helps the patient and the patient helps the doctor.
>>202579694>We make do without.surely you do, but it's already not a Slavic language, sorry>>202579772learning Latin was easy for me because even though my vocabulary could be lacking comparing to Romance-speaking nations (not that much since a lot of these words are incorporated into English after all), as a case-language native speaker I had the natural need to look for a proper case for every noun/adjective while Romanceoids just mixed all the cases up or omitted them
>>202579806>phrasal verbsI think these are quite hard for everyone, since it's not about grammar but more about new vocabulary you need to memorize. You cannot really derive from pure grammatical knowledge what the difference between "make up" and "make out" is, because these phrasals are in fact metaphoras, their meaning does not correspond to the general meaning of preposition that is merged with the verb.
>>202579938if bulgarian isnt a slavic language why is it so similar to serbian
>>202579905It's straight up the genitive case, but it's just not analyzed as such.
>>202579976>Are you fluent in Latin?no, I just had a one-year course, but learning grammar was just comparatively easier for me than for non-case language speakers
>>202579999The meaning of some verbs in German changes depending on whether they're separable or not (eg umfahren).
>>202580000just because English is so similar to French doesn't make it a Romance language
>>202580000funny thing about serbian is that the serbian dialects closest to Bulgaria have less cases than usual. So our influence is like a plague. :)also nice quads
>gender>number >case
>>202579459Greek has, typically, 4 cases but it's 2 or 3 different endings depending on the declination pattern. There's also a super rare fifth one (dative) that was part of Ancient Greek but has disappeared, although it is used in a number of fixed expressions >>202579502that's like saying Romanian isn't a Romance language because it has cases
>>202579999thats why i found them easy, you just memorize them. cases are hard to get down because every word changes according to context.
>>202580070even more interestingly croatian dialects furthest west have even more cases!
>>202580048I think every language has something like phrasal verbs, but in many languages these are not necessarily seen as something gramatically distinct, it's just more vocabulary to learn. As I said, to know what "make up" means, you need to learn it, because you cannot derive the actual meaning from the grammatical construction of this phrasal verb. One could expect that it's something that combines the meaning of "make" and "up" but it's totally not like that, it's simply an abstract expression. >>202580079>that's like saying Romanian isn't a Romance language because it has casesRomance nations can set whatever rules they like, but for Slavic languages there is one non-negotiable rule - it must have cases.
3 actual ones, but 5 official ones with extra helping words
>>202580145well yeah you're closer to slovenia
>>202580069that would apply moreso if you said just because serbian is so similar to turkish doesnt mean its a turkic language.im not talking loanwords here, bulgarian just sounds like a slavic language to me, being that its literally serbian without cases.
>>202580147>but for Slavic languages there is one non-negotiable rule - it must have cases.why? who set that rule?
Bulgarian feels really weird, it's like an English speaker trying to speak poor Serbian so he unconsciously omits cases and uses articles>>202580191me
>>202580190>because serbian is so similar to turkishwhat are you talking about lol, just because Croats replaced 1% of turcisms with some made up slavic words doesn't make Serbian more similar to Turkish in 'general feeling'and in slang you use the same words like Serbs BREEE
>>202580207In Polish do you attach articles to nouns: e.g "the water" becomes "thewater", a water becomes "awater"?
Icelandic has nominative, genitive, dative, accusative and instrumental cases but the instrumental case is declined the same way as the dative case
>>202580285there are no articles in slavic languages
>>202580285>In Polish do you attach articles to nouns: e.g "the water" becomes "thewater", a water becomes "awater"?no? we don't have articles at allwhat you're talking about is done in Bulgarian (but the article is at the end of the word so "water-the")
>>202580288How far are you on your Icelandic studies? Are you fluent in Icelandic yet?
>>202580315>there are no articles in slavic languagesthis sentence is trueif we counted Bulgarian as a Slavic language then it would be false but thankfully we don't do that
>>202580207All Slav languages should use Bulgarian articles
>>202580244everything you wrote is just bullshit to a t. and we dont say bre.
>>202580317So how does Polish differentiate between "definite articles" and "indefinite articles"E.g"Bring me a chair"Vs"Bring me the chair"The second sentence specifies a specific chair instead of any chair.
>>202580336true. bulgarian is germanic and we are aryan
>>202580315Bulgarian has a definite article that varies by gender and number. Kinda similar to the German one in that regard.
>>202580376There is no such concept period. Just like there are no cases in English. How do you differentiate >>202579934? You don’t.
>>202580353articles are the most retarded thing, i don't know what they're fori can understand why cases are unnecessary and it would be wrong to get rid of them but adding articles feels unnecessarily complicated, why the fuck do you always need to define what "status" the noun has? >>202580376simply - we use this/that if we really need to emphasize that we mean "THIS" chair and not the other one"bring me chair" = bring me any chair you want"bring me THIS chair" = well, it explains itselfit's as simple as it can be, so adding articles is completely irrational
>>202580318Well I study Old Icelandic and people don't speak that language Anyway I still have a long way to go especially with phrases and vocabulary
>>202580367>and we dont say bre.haha lmao i could believe you if i haven't been to Dubrovnik
>>202580424>articles are the most retarded thing, i don't know what they're for> why the fuck do you always need to define what "status" the noun has? Oh, I get, it's a German VPN falseflagging, right
Here's the same case map but for the whole planet.
>>202580476what? German does have articles
>>202579459is german hard to learn? i speak three languages already, i think german would be nice to know. either that or italian, but i hate dagos
>>202579847a subject or object within a clause displays morphologically contrasting forms via one of more word classes governed by syntactical functionfor example, in Hungarian, the inessive case (a locative case expressing location within something) is expressed with the inessive suffix, -ban, so e.g. ház > a házban
>>202580526new whiteness map
>>202580454you do realize the bartender workforce is completely made up of serbs. ive been there, they do speak a herceg bosnian dialect but bre isnt present even in that.dubrovnik and the whole south region is home to like 100 thousand people tops its not very indicative of anything.
>>202580560>for example, in Hungarian, the inessive case (a locative case expressing location within something) is expressed with the inessive suffix, -ban, so e.g. ház > a házbanthough it must be mentioned the cases in agglutinative languages are not exactly what they are in inflectedlanguagesin agglutinative languages the "case" morphem (suffix/prefix) exists independently and has its own meaning detached from the main word. So you can just say that -ban suffix means "in". These morphems are just like prepositions in other languages.In inflected languages it's more nuanced, in most cases the suffix word have a strictly defined meaning and will be different depending on the word, position in the sentence and so on. For example, you cannot define a general dative case suffix for a Slavic language because there are dozens of suffixes that can perform this role with different words/sentences/positions.
>>202580288>but the instrumental case is declined the same way as the dative case...Scandinavian dative is actually 4 cases in one, i.e. dative proper, locative, instrumental, and ablative.Also, the case order is NADG in Scandinvian studies, unlike German or Latin where genitive is considered the second case to list.
>>202580669you all watch Serbian TV, Serbian movies, listen to Serbian songs and use their slang
>>202580538No, anon, I was just being very ironic by pretending to believe you are a German with a VPN pretending to be Pole trying to make Poles look bad in order to emphasize how ridiculous your claim appear.
>>202580676Sure, I just tried to make it simple for him by explaining it using his native language as an example.
>>202580749nah, articles are objectively stupid, they only add information that is not really important in most of cases and when this is important, the demonstrative pronoun should be enough for that
>>202580732bruh your whole existance is founded on being butthurt by russia, you really have no say on such topics
>>202580732aight bet, just spewing nonsense at this point
>>202580801at least we don't consume Russian media while your culture is being effectively pushed out by Serbian content
>>202580786>they only add information that is not really important in most of casesBut they are. They add context and nuance to a discussion. >I buy a bookvs >I buy THE bookCan actually make a lot of difference in a text. You're just being contrarian.
>>202580786anon, I...
>>202580871also the American-tier first person syndrome where only their worldview mattersbut in this case it's the idiom of his native language being different that the idiom of another (imagine my shock)
>>202580871>Can actually make a lot of difference in a text.but it's something that is generally unnecessary for most situations and makes the sentence longer for no reasonin Slavic languages the first sentence would be "I buy book" (one word less)and the second"I buy this book" (same length)which makes our languages more efficient with the same amount of information conveyed
>>202580953>thatthan*should also probably be from*
>>202580953nah, im being objective, im not trying to idealize my own langauge as i said we could get rid of most cases since they're unnecessary reallybut articles are a pain in the ass too
>>202580960>unnecessary for most situations and makes the sentence longer for no reasonBulgarian just had the -ta at the end of wordsWe only have -a and -ulIt barely matters
>>202581099but it forces you to define the verb every time you want to say it, while in most cases it's really unnecessaryokay, maybe if your language only has a definite article then it's not that different from what we have in Slavic languages (when the indefinitive form is simply a basic noun without suffixes) but what English has, so a/an for indefinitive, completely doesn't make sense. And the best proof is that English doesn't have that in plural forms and still fares well with that.
Can we all agree that dual is redundant?
>>202581215>English doesn't have that in plural forms and still fares well with that.English requires specific "group words" to use plural nouns with indefinite articles:e.g >A pack of playing cards>A class of childrenDoes Polish have something like these "group words" for plural nouns?
>>202581394That’s not what he’s saying. Compare>A kid went to school >Kids went to school the second one lacks an article
>>202581394>English requires specific "group words" to use plural nouns with indefinite articles:because these group words are de facto singular nouns gramatically-speaking, it is not an exception from the rule
>>202581426I understand, the only way to use "Kids" with an indefinite article is to use "group words":>A bus full of kids>A class of kids>A room of kids
>>202581354Yes. But don't tell that to any slovenians.
>>202581436How would Polish write the sentence:>A group of men got off the bus>Would it look like:Group of men got off that/their/this bus
>>202581570*Would it look like:>Group of men got off this/that/their bus
>>202579459Out of date mapGaelic is a minority language in the Western Isles now
>>202581570Group of men got off bus. If you absolutely need to be extra specific, you add a this/that.
>>202581601>Group of men got off this/that/their busyes, also the verb "got off" would be in a singular form, not pluraleven funnier, because "group" is feminine in Polish, while "men" obviously masculine, still the "group of men" would be a feminine-gender phrase so the verb "got off" would be in a feminine form as well.
>>202579459What the fuck is a grammatical case?
>>202581650“of men” would just be “men” in genitive, so the verb conforming to the word “group” makes perfect sense. Both the verb and the noun in genitive independently link up with the nominative noun.
>>202581621>Group of men got off bussimple and beautiful, innit? why English cannot be like that?
>>202580526>we wuz japanese n shit
>>202579459>grammatical casesobjectively they are pointless and archaic, Bulgarians did the right thing by getting rid of them. Unfortunately people in Eastern Euro countries will use them forever because suggesting otherwise it would be >le foreign influence >muh loss of culture >it don sounds right to me>some other npc response
>>202579459Uzbek6
>>202581354It's not completely redundant, its like 80% redundant. You can specify some things by using dual and avoid longer speech specifying quantity. for example if you say you and your brother went to the cinema in dual it's implied its just the two of you that went. if you said that in plural, it might mean you went with some other people, so you avoid a followup questions if anyone or who else went with you. It can add abit of precision to speech.
>>202580693NADG feels natural
>>202580693Don't know about Germanic languages, but in Latin G coming after N is a pretty reasonable way to order the cases, since many words use the genitive sg. stem as base for all cases but the nominative sg.
>>202581044>nah, im being objective no your're notyour entire argument stems from your view of necessity governed by your native langauge's idiomthat is literal bias
>>202583346thisbased and correct
>>202579934You can,by switching the active for the passive.
>>202581669see >>202580560and for a Finnish example, we have the illative case, describing motion into something, e.g. talo > taloon.
>>202579502if it isn't, how come i can understand basically everything?hungarian on the other hand is just romanic gibberish
>>202584482That's an entirely different concept. You can also say Der Patient wird vom Arzt geholfen, but the subject in English still has to stay in the first place (the patient was helped by the doctor).
>>202579934dem PatientenYou don't even know your own language.>>202580147>I think every language has something like phrasal verbs, but in many languages these are not necessarily seen as something gramatically distinctyep. Prefixed verbs do literally the same thing in slavic languages. cлyчитьcя and пoлyчить have completely different meanings, but the same stem.>>202584715It's still "dem patienten wird geholfen". Passive voice just makes the patient the subject. It doesn't change his case from dative to nominative.
>>202579934In Spanish and I guess every Romance language you can use al instead of el. El doctor ayuda al paciente, al paciente el doctor ayuda and al paciente ayuda el doctor all mean the same but with different emphasis. People insist we don't use cases just because it's in the article instead of the noun, even though it's the same way German does it.
>>202581731In Finnish this would be just>mangroup rose bus[-suffix for "from"]If we'd make an imaginary case suffix for it in English as -om then it would be>mangroup rose busom
>>202584715>Der Patient
>>202579635Like in Latin, how there are different words for the same thing based on how they relate to the other words in the sentence. filius (son)filii (of the son)filio (to the son)filium (When son is the object of the sentence e.g. "I saw the son")In Romance, filii was replace by "de filius"And filio was replaced by "ad filius"
>>202582047>le foreign influence >muh loss of culture >it don sounds right to meAll true
>>202584482>>202584715a better example would be topicalization, but that's rather archaic these days>the patient was by the doctor helped
>>202587876This
>>202580526English technically has 2 cases
I dont trust maps. Svens, do we have this ?
>>202579459My day was going so great and then I had to be reminded fennoswedes exist. Fuck you.
>>202588498
>>202579459>18just fegy my szegy up
what the fr*ck is a grammatical case
>>202579459Actually we have more than 6, but they're going unnoticed and not widely used. But didn't died out completely.
>>202579502That is not how that works
>>202580078>counting objects differently depending if it's in cylinder shape,square shape, circular shape, dead or alive, an animal, a person, a piece of wood or paper
>>202579459>18 what does it even mean? Can someone care to explain how is it physically possible?
>>202590536your language has 3 of them
>>202580376>bring me a chairprzynieś mi krzesło (any krzesło-chair is ok)>bring me the chairprzynieś mi (to/tamto) krzesło (bring me this/that chair) but you can (omit this/that) and know from the context what chair is the subject talking aboutarticles are such a pain in the ass, english by themselves omits them in some cases and then call it 0 article. 0 article? YOU DON'T USE ANY ARTICLE THEN, FAG THERE'S NO ARTICLE WHATSOEVER. DO YOU CALL HETERO MEN 0FAG? NO. SINCE YOU DON'T DEFINE HETERO AS OPPOSED TO FAGGOTRY.at least in italian you can smash them together with prefixes and get neat short nice sounding words that actually give some information for example sulla=sul+la - on+the(feminine). German also uses this sometimes. In das kino=ins kinobut in english it's used only for custom reasons, "it would sound weird without them"let's go to cinemalet's go to a cinemalet's go to the cinemaif your town has only one cinema then there's no fucking need to use any articles. If it has more than one cinema you can always provide more information>that one>the [name]>that one on this street>that near...>the old/new oneetc.it's especially annoying when writers use it in some reddit embarassing way>it was not just a/an [thing] it was THE [thing]
>>202579459whats a grammatical case?What is red, blue and dsrk blue for in the map?
>>202587568Thanks frater
>>202592806all of them are just postpositions appended to words
>>202579459I see why the basques have switched to speaking Spanish
>>202580424>>202593653Western European languages developed articles because they lost cases, so articles actually mark what word order marks in free word order languages.What "the" really means is that the person listening knows which exact thing you mean, so "the cinema" would be a specific place that both the speaker and listener know, where "a cinema" may or may not be a specific place that the speaker has in mind but either way the listener does not know which cinema exactly is meant.The word order in, say, Polish, performs a similar (albeit different) task, since it can mark topic/focus, which mark what the sentence is about and what the crucial piece of information in the sentence is. In that way, topic usually marks information that the listener already knows (and thus often corresponds to the definite article in English) where the focus will often be new information (which the listener may not know about, which would warrant an indefinite article).
>>202590536>>202593733you modify the nouns spelling in some languages depending on verb and the case used. it german you change the article too besides the word ending. It then allows some flexibility in writing sentences. For example "tim saw ana" in english, you can't really write it differently, or it will change meaning, "ana saw tim" means a different thing. In our language you would write it "tim je videl ano" ana is modified into ano, due to it being i think the accusative form, which allows you to swap the word order around and retain the original meaning "ano je videl tim" has the same meaning as the original sentence. So you can write the 2nd variant if whom tim saw is more important than who saw whom.
>>202580377it is in the name. Bulg(e)aryan.It's true!
>>202579905>>202580019We literally called it "Saxon genitive" when studying it in school
>>202579664You mean that non native speakers don't differentiate between the 3. and 4. case e.g. masculine singular dem/den?I guess it's difficult. The only easy tip about it I remember is to replace for example dem/den with mir/mich and then use what sounds right, but that's probably not that helpful for non native speakers.
'bring me this/that/new/old/your/my chair' == alack of this/that... == any
>>202594378I don't agree with that, there isn't really any ()negative) correlation between articles and cases in their function. And the best proof is German, which has both cases and articles, even though according to your theory, one cannot coexist with the other
>>202579459Fucks a case
>>202587568>In Romance, filii was replace by "de filius">And filio was replaced by "ad filius"I'm generally interested in languages, but never even realized this, despite doing three mandatory years of Latin in high school, thanks leaf.It was my least favorite subject because of cases you had to memorize like an ape, and I still went on to study Russian and German that I also gave up on lmao
>>202596197German does have cases, but the case marking is very weak. The accusative case really only exists for masculine nouns, the genitive is basically dead and the dative -e ending is archaic, so the only thing marking the case is the article. And many dialects have reduced the amount of cases/case marking even further.Even then, I somewhat agree, because German does have relatively free word order and does some of the things I mentioned. The reason German has articles then is likely influence from the neighbouring Romance languages, which did lose cases almost entirely.
