told a woman that abortion is murder and she called me a misogynist incel who doesn't have sex. is there some basis to this? did you happen to change your stance on such things after having sex? there's no way pussy fundamentally changes your core values like some drug. in your country of course
>>204747439I've fugged more than 50 women and that doesn't change it from being murder, I support it for any b*ack and any other b*own babies however
>>204747439Im pretty sure mexicans dont care about abortions
>>204747439She's rightAbortions is as much murder as masturbation
Yes, after sex you will want a abortion
>>204747477but with masturbation you kill gametes which aren't individuals. a zygote is an irrepetibile individual
>>204747439>there's no way pussy fundamentally changes your core valuespussy addicts will say whatever women want to hear for just a crumb more
>>204747477>Masturbation is murder By this logic simply not ejaculating into a women to procreate is murder, so even not nutting can be counted since semen simply gets discarded.Abortion is murder, just an acceptable kind, the same as when we bomb 40 thirdies to kill one terrorist
>>204747490
>>204747439You've never dealt with a pregnancy scare. Also, my misogyny unironally dropped a lot once I got some pussy. I became kinder too and started making more female friends.
>>204747776sounds to me like you abandon your values when they become inconvenient for you, anon
>>204747796Why does stance on murder needs to be a core value?
>>204747439killing cows is murderkilling pigs is murderkilling chickens is murderkilling flies and cockroaches is murdersince we're made of carbon, burning coal is murder
>>204747439People start defending socially accepted murder out of convinience. Plain and simple>>204747500You are correct. He's a retard repeating a retarded talking point
>>204747917Not you. You're made of cabron.
>>204747917Have you thought of joining the modern philosophers together with Joe Rogan and his friends?
>>204747917I've never killed a mammal, bird, amphibian or lizard before
>>204747917A adult cow is probably as intelligent as an infant therefore if we kill cows we should also be able to kill infants whether inside or outside the womb
>>204747439when i tell women i only support port birth infanticide they stop talking to me and disappear and start laughing as they crawl across my desk
Abortion isn't murder but it still shouldn't happen anyway and all who do it are bad, dysgenic people, who we shouldn't allow to be parents.We should perform abortions for anyone who seriously wants it, but they should be sterilized and given some sort of punishment. I suggest cutting off one of their hands during the procedure in addition to the sterilization. They can choose which one.
>>204748251Have you ever driven a car? I've killed at least a cat crossing the high way at night once, for sure multiple birds that tried to fly in front the car and plenty of lizards crossing the road
>>204748292I don't know if the intelligence argument is the strongest, does someone who's temporarily heavily impaired intellectually, maybe by drugs or trauma, deserve do die more than someone who isn't? An infant may be stupid now but they will most likely become much more intelligent in the future, same as our temporarily impaired friend, only on a different time scaleA cow stupid is and stupid remains
>>204748383Ok so what about permanently mentally disabled? Arguably the intelligence of some extremely impaired may be even lower than a cow Life has no intrinsic value.
>>204748485Some extremely mentally impaired people actually have a breakthrough at some point in their lives. Lot of mental impairments are just extreme developmental delays.
>this thread
>>204747439abortion is murder, and its even worse that normal murder, comparable like a kid that is aware that animals need to breath and squeezing them for fun but that gets brushed off since she's not mean to know that, and that's the reason cuz i fully support it.
>>204748485>Life has no intrinsic value.I sort of agree but so does pretty much anything else, we give value to something simply cause we want to, a car as value cause we wanna use it but there's no divine law saying you need it to go from a to b or to even eat food and survive, we choose, subconsciously or not, to give value to each of these things based on what our brain tells itself.Children, other humans and even animals have value to us intersubjectively, and since laws are based on what the majority wants, more so in a democracy, they have value for the state.Simply put, the whole idea of value is inherently human but we live in a human society, so what we value simply has value.
>>204747439>she called meAre you? The fact she called you something does not matter, what matter is what is true or not, such as the fact abortion is murder, that is a fact, no matter what she says or calls you.
>>204748741>Children, other humans and even animals have value to us intersubjectivelyThey intersubjectively don't have value to psychopaths, or really even to normal people when they decide a life gets in the way of something else (national interest, threat, etc)>the whole idea of value is inherently human but we live in a human society, so what we value simply has value.Holy tautology...
>>204748026Acceptable and convenient things are worth defending.
>>204748326That's a third worlder habit, as your flag indicates
>>204749293Not if you have a consciousness
>>204747439>here's no way pussy fundamentally changes your core values like some drugI know a ton of guy with gfs who pretend they agree with her on this kind of topic actually. In private they will still be anti-abortion but they are all too pussy to say it in front of their gfs.So in the minds of women, men who have gfs are all pro-abortion. If only they had any idea the shit their boyfriends say in private ...Really the problem with incels isthey are way too honest.
>>204748383>does someone who's temporarily heavily impaired intellectually, maybe by drugs or trauma, deserve do die more than someone who isn't?If those people made it that far it's because of their voluntary, deliberate will to live.It's their will that makes them worthy of existing, whether they're incapacitated or not.The will of the dead should be respected too.A red snail automatically absorbing nutrients from its host is not exercising its will, it's a completely passive being, just like a weed. The life of an insect is more important.
>>204749340>I know a guy therefore I know how the world works
>>204749340>in the minds of women, men who have gfs are all pro-abortion. If only they had any idea the shit their boyfriends say in private ...Nothing ever changes, same as it ever was
>>204749370>a ton of
She's right, incel. Her body her choice, if you force a woman to have a child you should pay more taxes to pay for that child's expenses
>>204749397That's an extremely specific thing to have "a ton" of examples of.
>>204749398what about the body of the child that she's killing
>>204748326Nope, not even a bicycle, I think I might have killed a small fish once when a I dropped a big rock in the water by accident but that's it
>>204749425The body of a red slug sucking nutrients from its host has no worth. It doesn't even have a brain to make a choice.
>>204749431it's not a slug it's a human being
>>204749340>Really the problem with incels isthey are way too honest.Sounds like incels aren't the ones with a problem here. These boyfriends are validating something that kills people even though they don't agree with it, merely because it's convinient for them and they are scared of losing benefits. They are cowards in the worst definition of the word
>>204749408it's not just abortion, anything chud workstake a group of 10 random guys, ask their opinion on the lgbt, at least 8 will say "i'm so fucking tired of their disgusting parades and trannies shoehorned everywhere", next as them abut feminists "they are so fucking annoying they're breaking our balls"then bring in their gfs, suddenly "i have no problem with gays i'm tolerant", "yeah feminism is very important to me i swear"many such cases
>>204749431You cant make a choice when your brain is unconscious
>>204749446You have very little respect for humans if you think that the squirming red jelly is comparable to an actual person.>>204749462So the "ton" of people you were talking about are just ten guys?>>204749464They made the choice before they entered the coma. The will of a person should be respected whether they're capable of exercising it themselves or not.
>>204749474Why do you think unborn children aren't Humans?
>>204749474I'm not talking necesarily about coma. When you sleep while you are not dreaming. When you receive general anesthesia. When you faint.
>>204749462Why do men put up with stupid whores then? I would never date a woman who was pro abortion because she might murder my children.
>>204749474it's called sampling in statistics
>>204749488It's the exact same principle. The will of a person should be respected whether they can exercise it or not.It should even be respected in death.>>204749483Because they're passive, unthinking parasites with no attachment to the world. They don't care if you kill them, so I don't either.
>>204749498You live in Egypt it's different. Try being openly anti-abortion in Paris or London. It's just shooting yourself in the foot.
>>204749474just because kill someone before they can talk it doesn't mean you aren't murdering them
>>204749511You have no will in this state
>>204749474>So the "ton" of people you were talking about are just ten guysLol you reason like a woman . He's giving evidence from his own personal experience which is perfectly valid you are just being obtuse
>>204749519you kill*
>>204749511Why do you think someone being unthinking invalidates the worth of their life? Do you think there should be any limits on abortion? >>204749518I was vocally anti-abortion when I lived in England.
>>204749526>Lol you reason like a woman She probably is a woman
>>204747439>she called me a misogynist incel who doesn't have sexAnd she was correct. It's ALWAYS the incels who are the loudest anti-abortion people even though they will never have sex.
>>204749564do you think I would start supporting baby murder if I had more sex
>>204749564Just because someone doesn't have sex doesn't mean they just stop caring about the lives of children.
>>204749541I mean it's doable depending on where and who you live with and how you come off about it. I don't even have a strong opinion on it, I am just noticing a lot of men just lie through their teeth and think the drama is not worth it.
>>204749519Exercising your will isn't just verbal. A newborn baby exercises it by crying, clinging to its mother and eating. It's a human being who wants to live. A fetus is just a parasite that passively absorbs nutrients from a tube.>>204749520The will of a person isn't even cancelled in death, let alone during sleep.>>204749526Anecdotal evidence has always been worthless, in science, in debates and any other type of confrontation. In this case the evidence isn't just anectodal, but it's not even confirmed to be true. If you think this is thinking like a woman you have no respect for men.>>204749541>Why do you think someone being unthinking invalidates the worth of their life? If they don't care about dying why should I care about their death? The limit of abortion should coincide with the formation of consciousness.
One time on a road trip my dad confided with me about how in his early 20s he had a first wife that had aborted an unwanted pregnancy and that he was the one that took her and he just sort of blindly went along with it. He told me that he still thinks about it and how they would've been 30 years old or so. My dad's a sort of aspie deadhead baby boomer lib and I could tell even he couldn't escape a sense of guilt about it all.
>>204747917>since we're made of carbon
>>204749594No it just means they are the loudest keyboard warriors.
>>204749610>The limit of abortion should coincide with the formation of consciousness.And when do you think that is?>If they don't care about dying why should I care about their death?So are you ok with someone going around disconnecting the lifesupports of coma patients?
>>204749643And? You make it seem as if those people are hypocrites
>>204749663No, they are just sad.
>>204749645abortion prevented americas black population from exploding dumb christcuck
>>204749610With a large enough sample size, anecdotal evidence turns into somewhat reliable statistical observations.This is like saying "just because you know a car salesman who is a crook, doesn't mean they all are it's just anecdotal evidence". Sure but when I have met dozens of car salesmen in my life, they were all crooks, and everyone around has the same experience, you can reliaby say that most car salesmen are in fact crooks.
>>204747439There's this movie called Nocturnal Animals where Jake Gyllenhaal's girlfriend aborts his child so he writes a brutal novel about a father whose daughter gets murdered to mentally torture her. Women don't mind it because Jake Gyllenhaal is hot. Just be a good looking white chad and women will accept your criticism.
>>204749668How? Just for having views different to yours? >>204749672Murder is murder, your racial prejudices are irrelevant.
>>204749645>And when do you think that is?At four months of pregnancy. Ask a doctor.>So are you ok with someone going around disconnecting the lifesupports of coma patients?If the will of those patients is to die disconnecting their life support isn't just ok, it's a moral imperative. If they expressed the will to live any time before the coma their will should be respected.>>204749683Which is why you came up with "tons" of men who had this exact hyperspecific conversation with you. Too bad in reality women respect you more when you actually have balls and stand for yourself.
>>204749610>Anecdotal evidence has always been worthless, in science, in debates and any other type of confrontation.I disagree it's perfectly valid to reason from ones own personal experiences and observations, there's nothing more natural We are not doing science. We are not in a laboratory or formal setting that would require that level of objectivity
>>204749610>by crying, clinging to its mother and eating.Lol those are not at all measure of intelligence. I thought you were going to bring up some kind of neural scans or something, or how formed the brain is late stage and after birthYou really are a stupid woman reasoning via emotion
>>204749700>At four months of pregnancy. Ask a doctor.Why doctors think that? Do you at least admit that abortions after 4 months are definitely murder? A quarter of American states don't even have any abortion limits, a 9 month old baby could be murdered in an abortion clinic if their mother wanted that.
>>204749610>A fetus is just a parasite that passively absorbs nutrients from a tube.a fetus is a unique individual who's in the process of growing. halting that process does not reduce a human being in the first stage of life to a tapeworm which will always be a tapeworm
>>204749700Then why would women think it's an incel take? They'd think all the strong principled men are anti-abortion. Principled pro-abortion men barley even exist anyways. They think so because all the "men with balls who stand for themselves" just tell them what they want to hear, but very confidently so.You aren't entirely wrong in that people will fake having left wing takes with a lot of confidence and balls, which their girls do enjoy, but it's still fake deep down.I have to go to work now by the way, but in my opinion I won this argument.
If abortion isn't murder then why do you get charged with double homicide when you kill a pregnant woman?
>>204749699No, for voicing their opinion when in reality they will never even touch a woman in their lifetime. Being loud and judgemental about things you know nothing about is sad and unfortunate.
>>204749818You are being extremely judgemental right now
>>204749700>If the will of those patients is to die disconnecting their life support isn't just ok, it's a moral imperative.Why does their previous will matter when they no longer have it? You're contradicting yourself, conceding that a potential will that doesn't exist in actuality matters is to concede that the same should apply to a fetus which can only have a potential future will
>>204749840True but I used to be one of them until I realized that being that way would get me nowhere in life. So I am speaking from experience.
>>204749818>No, for voicing their opinion when in reality they will never even touch a woman in their lifetime.You still don't understand, I don't just care about my children, I care about ALL children. Maybe your lack of empathy is showing when you think that people shouldn't care about chidlren who aren't theirs. Even if I were to spend the rest of my life as a celibate monk in a monastery, that wouldn't lower the amount that I care about children's wellbeing. >Being loud and judgemental about things you know nothing about is sad and unfortunate.I know that children's lives have value just like the lives of all other Humans, that's enough knowledge for me to confidently be against abortion.
>>204749865Judgemental and an oportunistic coward lol
>>204749865>True but I used to be one of them until I realized that being that way would get me nowhere in life.So you compromised your values for expedience.
>>204749793in jurisdictions where abortion is legal, you usually don'tfetal homicide laws are considered to be anti-abortion
>>204749715Without evidence there can never be a consensus so the entire premise is pointless.My experience is the complete opposite, I noticed that women tend to look down on doormat cucks who bend to their will. >>204749741I never said a single word about intelligence. I respect both humans' and caterpillars' right to live, not because they're smart but because of their will to exist. A fetus has no will.>>204749750>Do you at least admit that abortions after 4 months are definitely murder?I believe that abortion shouldn't be practiced past that point because by then the fetus is somewhat conscious, but I don't think it's murder.>>204749766I don't care if it's human. If it wants or wanted to live I'll respect its will, if it's just a stomach connected to a tube I couldn't care less.>>204749778>Then why would women think it's an incel take?Plenty of women don't. Most women don't know what "incel" means.>They'd think all the strong principled men are anti-abortionThat's simply not the case. There are men with integrity on both sides.>in my opinion I won this argumentIn my opinion your entire premise is invalid.>Why does their previous will matter when they no longer have it?Because will is transferred from one person to the other, my obligation towards someone remains even if that someone is gone, it's a matter of principle.>the same should apply to a fetus which can only have a potential future willThe fetus' potential is decided by its host since it doesn't have and never had a will of its own.
>>204747439Abortion isn't murder and even if it was I see no problem with it. Human life has no inherent value and once you see that you realize abortion starts to make a lot of sense.
>>204749887No, I exchanged my stupidity for life experience.
>>204749865>>204749818it's not a matter of personal convenience. pro-choice people think it is, because the choice to kill and dispose of their baby is also a matter of personal convenience. whereas pro-life people see it as a matter of right and wrong
>>204749896>but I don't think it's murder.Why? You're not making sense.
>>204749750nigga, no woman is carrying a pregnancy for several months and then having an abortion out of mere convenience or whatever you want to call itat that point, an abortion is a life-saving medical procedure
>>204749916And what life experience did you gain that made you think that killing unborn children wasn't murder?
>>204749896>. I respect both humans' and caterpillars' right to live, not because they're smart but because of their will to exist. A fetus has no will.So a caterpillar has more of a will than a fetus? That makes zero sense. I would consider intelligence the primary evidence of consciousness, which is more important than a vague idea about "will". Grasping, clinging, and wanting to eat are activities that even the lowest life forms display.
>>204749956See pic relatedThis year there was a South Korean woman who murdered her 9 month old unborn child in an abortion and uploaded footage of that abortion to youtube.
>>204749896>The fetus' potential is decided by its host since it doesn't have and never had a will of its own.I don't see why you would respect a past will that no longer exists but not a future hypothetical will. I don't see much of any functional difference And the fetus' lack of will is no different to the man in the coma, that was the whole point of making the analogy
>>204750002your image says nothing about timeframe retard
>>204749968I made a woman pregnant. We were both students. No money, no home, no real future together. We made the decision together to end the pregnancy instead. That child would have had a horrible life.So you see, life isn't all black and white. I understand that you will never agree or even bother trying to understand why people do what they do but there it is. And before you say it, yes we were using protection. It's not always effective.
>>204749896well, it cannot express its will to live since they're killing it before it can
>>20475003657% of abortions in the US happened after at least a month of gestation.
>>204749950I believe that excessively late abortion should be criminalized, but I don't consider the worth of a fetus as equal to that of a baby.>>204749987>So a caterpillar has more of a will than a fetus?Yes. Everyday caterpillars make the effort of climbing the stem of their host plant and finding leaves to eat. They have a survival instinct and some form of consciousness. A fetus is just a stomach with a tube, it has no survival instincts whatsoever.>>204750034I as well as the rest of society am responsible for carrying the man's will whether he's in a coma or not.>>204750052Then there's no problem.
>>204750082>I don't consider the worth of a fetus as equal to that of a baby.Why? Didn't you admit that foetuses are conscious after at least 4 months of gestation?
>>204750099I consider that to be the point where consciousness starts to form, which is different from a baby's fully formed consciousness.
>>204750074so what?
>>204750082You didn't answer the American anon's question, why do you think a future will doesn't matter? Every single aborted baby would have wanted to live as much as any other baby.
>>204750117See what you wrote here:>no woman is carrying a pregnancy for several months and then having an abortion out of mere convenience or whatever you want to call itat that point, an abortion is a life-saving medical procedureAnd what I posted here>>204750002>risk to the woman's life or a major bodily function: 0.3%
>>204750082the problem remains: you're ending a human life — worse, you're ending your child's life — and using a temporary and transitional state of being to pretend there's little difference between a fetus and a slug
>>204750082>They have a survival instinct and some form of consciousness. A fetus is just a stomach with a tube, it has no survival instincts whatsoeverYou can't be serious >the man's will whether he's in a coma or not.The mans will doesn't exist just like the fetus doesn't.
>>204750118A sperm will have wanted to live as much as any other baby.
>>204750118Every single sperm cell has the potential to become a willful person or even the next Jesus or Bodhisattva.I don't care about hypothetical made up futures, I care about the will of the people who can already exercise it.>>204750168I don't consider a fetus to be a child. Slugs are actually more conscious than fetuses.>>204750184Will exists as a component of our society. From a legal standpoint the will of a person is to be respected even in death.It's also a component of my moral compass.
>>204750237>>204750239A sperm cell is a gamete, not a person. Why should the past will of a coma person matter more than the future will of an unborn baby if both of them at present can't express their will?
>>204750267*comatose person
>>204750267>A sperm cell is a gamete, not a person. A fetus is not a person.>Why should the past will of a coma person matter more than the future will of an unborn baby if both of them at present can't express their will?One exists, the other doesn't.
>>204750133there is a big difference between one month and several months when it comes to a pregnancylots of women won't even know they're pregnant for up to a month (i.e. until they miss a period)
>>204750239>I don't care about hypothetical made up futures, I care about the will of the people who can already exercise it.You can't exercise any will if you are unconscious. Your respect for "will" is yet another form of respect for future potentials
>>204750299Wills are decided ahead of time and respected even after death.
>>204750293A fetus is a living human being therefore a personNeither have will because both are unconscious
Who cares? Abortion is a big non-issue, I don't know why people make it a big deal. Also, murder is not an absolute wrong. If you think so, you have the mind of a child.
>>204750267>A sperm cell is a gamete, not a personI never said it's a person, I said it has the potential to be one. It's an example to explain why I consider hypothetical potentials to be worthless.>Why should the past will of a coma person matter more than the future will of an unborn baby if both of them at present can't express their will?Because the will of the comatose person has already been expressed while the future of the fetus is yet to be determined.>>204750299A will carries on even after death. It's not just something that's expressed by a person, it's also something that's carried out by individuals and society. I feel like I repeated this at least four times now.
>>204750317That's obviously a societal abstraction
>>204750320It isn't a human being and most importantly it's not a person. A fetus is a fetus. It's an organ in someone's body.
>>204750348Yes.
>>204750349An organ with totally different genome and development pattern?>>204750330What exactly do you mean by will? Sounds like some made up juridic abstraction.
>>204750237sperm cells are gametes, they cannot be considered individuals since they lack half of the genetic material needed to make a human. a zygote is a human being and so are an embryo and a fetus. their state is just transitory and not definitive, it's wrong to kill them by taking advantage of this>>204750239child as in "figlio" not as in "bambino". that clump of cells, as you consider it, is a human life and it's your spawn
>>204750293>A fetus is not a person.Yes they are.>One exists, Where does the will of a comatose person exist? In their unconscious brain?
>>204750363Yes, just as the gametes and Narr bodies have different genomes.
OP what part of italy do you live in? The 3 italians I know from napoli all consider abortion == murder also women are shit and deserve to be controlled by men. They said this in front of their wives and they agreed.
>>204750374>Yes they are.They aren't.>Where does the will of a comatose person exist?On a contract.
>>204750373>child as in "figlio" not as in "bambino".I loved that you said this. The barbaric english language doesn't allow us to make this distinction so they make this "not a child" argument in bad faith
>>204750330>Because the will of the comatose person has already been expressed while the future of the fetus is yet to be determined.What baby after the moment it is born express a desire to commit suicide? ALL BABIES want to live, how can you say that their wills are "yet to be determined"?A foetus isn't a hypothetical person, they are a person.
>>204750385It's a new genome. The gamete just has the haploid version of your own genome
>>204750408>On a contract.Which contract? >They aren't.Yes they are
>>204750330>Because the will of the comatose person has already been expressed while the future of the fetus is yet to be determined.The future of many disabled persons is also hypothetical without medical intervention their future existence is hypotheticalSo why can't we kill the disabled applying your logic?
>>204750427I don't see the meaning in this distinction here until the fetus becomes a person.
>>204750442The meaning is it proves that the fetus is another animal specimen, therefore another human being, therefore another person
>>204750430>Which contract?A contract that they signed.>Yes they areThey aren't. Personhood is a legal abstraction that doesn't and has never applied to fetuses.
>>204750457Being another specimen does not make it a person. It's an organ in someone else's body.
>>204750483It's another individual with its own organs. Saying its an organ is very ignorant.
>>204750497It isn't an individual until it's separate from the other person's body.
>>204750330>>204750463So what if someone can't express a will for whatever reason. Is it ok to kill them?
>>204750463>A contract that they signed.A contract is not a will, it is a record. A legal will is not a real will either, it is a record of a will. Wills are immaterial and exist inside people, wills are not pieces of paper or the ink on those papers or the digital bits on a computer document. The "will" of a comatose patient is recorded on a record, a contract, for just the instance that they signed that contract, it is not a perfectly accurate representation of their will, just as the legal will of a deceased person is not a perfect representation of their current will as a dead person, just the past record of their will at some point when they were alive. And so if the past will of a comatose patient should be respected, and I agree that it should indeed be respected, why do you think the future will of an unborn child shouldn't be respected?
>>204750502What level of dependency is needed before an individual ceases to be individual? (Or inversely how independent from another?)We are all dependent on others. It's relative If you get an organ transplant from another person, you are dependent on that person, but know one claims that means you lose your rights as a person
>>204750502It's separare by the amniotic sac
>>204750363Will is anything a person desires.>>204750373Same principle, an unformed fetus is not a child in any sense of the word, it just carries the potential to be one.>>204750411>What baby after the moment it is born express a desire to commit suicide?One that has never been born.>>204750440Because they already expressed their will to live in the past.>>204750513You mean someone who was born with a completely non-functioning brain? In such cases killing isn't just ok, it's an imperative.
>>204750536*But no one
>>204750513It is legally assumed that their will is to live.>>204750532tl;dr>>204750536Your personhood persists during sleep, during coma and after death.>>204750545It is not yet separate from the other person's body, considering it is literally inside of it.
>>204747477>women enables my murdersIf only they'd let me put my peepee in their vagoo so many lives could be saved.
>>204750555>One that has never been born.Wrong, you have no way of knowing that, you have no evidence of that, no foetus is suicidal, if unborn children who were about to aborted could understand that they were about to be murdered, and they were able to stop their own abortions, they would definitely do whatever they could to stop the abortions they were about to suffer.
>>204750598>It is legally assumed that their will is to live.And you're a retard if you think babies are born suicidal, ALL foetuses want to live.
>>204750624How do you know that fetus won't eventually be suicidal once it becomes a person and grows up? I thought we were respecting hypothetical future wills here.
>>204750639Fetuses don't have any wants.
>>204750555What if since you were born some outsider force prevented you from desiring anything or specifically desire something about the continuity of your own life? This doesnt need to be a total abstract situation, imagine you were kept artificially numbed up for years to the point you were always unconscious. Is it OK to kill you even if you could enjoy consciousness if you were allowed to in the future?
>>204747439Abortion is murder, but murder is not a bad thing per se. I'm all for exterminating brownoid parasites and the earlier you do it the better. And executing recidivist violent criminals.
>>204750598>Your personhood persists during sleep, during coma and after death.So what if a person, fully conscious, was also dependant on a persons body? What then?Such as is the case of an organ donor. He depends on another. He is not fully autonomous.One might say he has become the organ of the other You aren't really addressing my points you're just repeating yourself like a broken record
>>204750644>How do you know that fetus won't eventually be suicidal once it becomes a person and grows up? I thought we were respecting hypothetical future wills here.We can't, just as we can't know if a 5 year old child could be suicidal when they grow up to become an adult, and just as it would be wrong to murder that 5 year old child under the assumption that they would have been a suicidal adult, it is wrong to murder foetuses with the assumption that they would have been suicidal adults.>>204750658Yes they do
>>204750598I'm literally inside my house right now, I'm not part of my house
>>204750672That is a separate person as he exists outside of another person's body.>>204750674Fetuses don't have wants and desires. These don't form until a person is fully conscious.
>>204750684You are part of your household, but regardless, this is a false analogy.
>>204750624>if if ifNone of that happened. I only care about reality.>>204750664That's a completely unfeasible scenario. You're describing a person who never cried as a baby, never consumed food or water and never tried to escape from stressful stimuli. I'm not concerned with impossible hypotheticals.
>>204750729If I put my finger inside someone's cunt, did my finger become part of her body? It's inside her body. Or a surgeon perfoming a surgery, his hands are now part of the pacient's body?
>>204750746Your finger is an attached part of yourself, a separate person.
>>204748548No.Unless you mean autistic people and by "extreme developmental delays" starting to talk at 4.Downies don't have "breakthroughs".
>>204750741It's 100% possible to artificially put someone on unconscious state, you could do it since birth. Also logically sound principles should uphold even in limit scenarios
>>204750502>>204750598a fetus is a separate organism, not an organ. we really have to go to implausible lengths to justify this. it's like when trannies try to redefine what sex means>>204750669I'm not saying murder is always wrong and there are probably some hypotheticals you can conjure wherein even child murder is the right thing to do, but that's beyond this discussion
>>204750712>separate person as he exists outside of another person's bodyHe isn't separate. He depends on the other person's will entirely (if the other person chooses to not give he will die) hence his situation is analogous to the fetus which is also dependantWhether outside or inside is irrelevant, as the lvl of dependency is the measure of autonomy.
>>204750664Also, I'll answer this impossible scenario.Yes, if that did happen, then you were never a person and shall not be protected under the rights of a person.
>>204750773>It's 100% possible to artificially put someone on unconscious stateNot since the moment of the person's birth.Babies need to be fed naturally and can't survive sedation for prolonged periods of time. Even then the person conducting the experiment would be a child abuser, they should be parted from the child so that it could resume its normal functions.
>>204750797He is completely separate. He isn't inside that person's body.
>>204750809It's not impossibleYou just justified the murder of some innocent person who could wake up if they allowed to
>>204750830There is no such thing as separation all things and entities are contained in other things it's relative retardIf someone surgically puts another man's organ into mine I am objectively dependent 100% completely on that mans will, and yet no one claims that my dependency, my lack of autonomy, negates my personhood.So why would the fetus lack of autonomy have any bearing on personhood. It's completely irrelevant
>>204750852As I said, the organism in this scenario is not a person, as it has never had its own consciousness and will.
>>204750873>it's all relative bro! everything is both x and not x at the same timelol
>>204750892>it's all relative bro! everything is both x and not x at the same timeIf you're too low IQ to get my point, just say so. There's no such thing as an automomous individual. Such a person has never existedIt is relative in the sense that there are gradations of dependency, no absolute independence WSo why do you consider lack of autonomy relevant to the personhood of a fetus but not to the organ donor recipient? Both lack autonomy
>>204750874Your dogmatic insistence on these principles has no basis on actual reality. We protect the life of people because we want to protect their ability to experience life, specifically positive experiences. This is the actual thing that happens. You made up some soulless bureaucratic rule to decide who lives and who dies based on some inconsequential manifestation. It's like a kid deciding you can only have an object if you say "I saw it first". >You can only live if you manifested a will first. You didn't? You are a perfectly health human being who could very well experience life? Oh that's too bad
>>204750971A person is physically separate from other people. This itself is an autonomy. You lost my interest when you started arguing liberal relativism or some shit.
>>204747917>killing cows is murderFact>killing pigs is murderFact>killing chickens is murderFact>since we're made of carbon, burning coal is murderFalse, as it's impossible to murder that which is not alive
>>204750823>logically sound principles should uphold even in limit scenariosI honestly dont know if you are right, but if you are would your whole worldview and argument change if we have a technological advance that allows us to induce coma on infants?
>>204751016The actual reality we live in right now is that fetuses aren't people just as much as sperms aren't people, and there's no good justification to deem them as people, as they're not separate from another person, and as they have never had consciousness. Hypothetical future will of something that doesn't exist is magical thinking.
>>204751026>A person is physically separate from other peopleAn organ donor recipient is not physically separate. He is receiving a piece of another person's body.
>>204751088Sperms are your haploid cells. They are separate, the mother's blood doesn't even flow in the baby's circulation in utero. You dont have a consciousness when you are sleeping, by "never had" you are giving importance to something that doesnt exist right now (the past), so why is it absurd to give importance to the future? Why does this rule of must have first matter?
>>204748251Did you ever get a dying pet euthanized?
>>204751088The actual reality we live in right now is that comatose aren't people just as corpses aren't people, and there are no good justifications to deem them as people, as they're dependent on medical machinery to stay alive, and as they're completely non conscious Hypothetical past will of something that doesn't exist is magical thinking.
>>204751087No, as I said I believe that since the fourth or fifth month of gestation the child should already be treated as an individual, although to a lesser extent than an actual fully formed baby.The person conducting the experiment would be a criminal in virtue of the fact that they're not giving the baby the specific care it needs.
>>204751206Fine, a scientific advance that allows us to do it since before the 4th month of development. Yeah the evil demon is a criminal, this doesn't matter. At least be like the canadian and be brave enough to take your stance
>>204751281I've already taken my stance.I simply don't see the point in engaging with these weird fantasies.
>>204747439What's up with all this anti-abortion stuff lately from the cuck right? If anything we don't have enough abortions.
>>204751333They want to control the bodies of others but they can't and this enrages them.
>>204751333>>2047513544chan is for males only, go to crystalcafe to be with your fellow females
>>204751309You don't like to see your logic being taken to the ultimate consequences. This is what it looks like: >>204750809>>204750852>>204751016
>>204751333Incel-neets relate and empathize with parasites
>>204751395Does dehumanising children make you feel happy?
>>204747477Brazilian education...Half the information for a baby VS. a fertilized egg with 100% of the information for a baby + it's already in the fucking womb, you absolute baboon
>>204751389My ideas about abortion are based on current scientific consensus.If you have to resort to scenarios where an evil wizard freezes babies inside the mother's womb you simply have no arguments left.Just let it go, it's just an ephemeral 4chan thread.
>>204751379Imagine still being at this stage of the right-wing. Some people are helpless. We need a massive number of abortions, most of them retroactively. 4 weeks abortion? More like 45 years abortion.
>>204751415>My ideas about abortion are based on current scientific consensus.Which is strange, since science has yet to determine the true nature of consciousness nor where it comes from
>>204751410You can't dehumanize what was never human
>>204751444Current consensus is that a baby's consciousness forms around the fifth month of gestation. If you disagree or have anything to add publish a paper and make history.
>>204751469Define who is Human, then>>204751479Can you link me a few scientific papers backing what you claim?
>>204751430imagine blowjob from that tongue
>>204751469>a fetus isn't humanmeds
>>204751389Nothing is lost if a human was always vegetative from birth and then dies. You say "ultimate consequences" like something valuable would be lost.
>>204751430>We need a massive number of abortions,you need to fuck more Paco, this war is won by numbers and the average Spanish can't have kids anymore to begin with.Have sex
>>204751415>are based on current scientific consensus.This is not true at all
>>204751537Yeah only the wizard using magic science to keep babies asleep is true.
>>204751508>imagine blowjob from that tongueGoosejob will become a tag and it will be your great contribution to human culture
>>204747439Not only she is right but I can tell you reputation is fuckedMaybe one day you will realize that being a pretentious edgelors is really not worth itLiterally change town and start over
>>204751479>>204751553Consensus on consciousness doesnt translate into a pseudoscientific justification of ethics based on empirical data. Science doesnt say "its ok to kill them" because thats outside the scope of science. Claiming your position is supported by science is dishonest
>>204751590not switching opinions based on what gets me laid. also any woman who supports killing my children is not a woman I want to be with anyway
>>204751502>>204751510No such thing as an objective definition of personhood. Before and after the the thing is out it's equally intrinsically worthless beyond a person's attachment You're just a stupid naive moralfag infanticide has been around foreverThe only reason people freak out about infanticide is because of irrational humanism
>>204751607I said it's based on science, not supported by it. I'm not presenting a new scientific theory, I'm discussing an ethical matter and adapting my conclusions to reality (as in, not to your hypothetical sci-fi/fantasy scenario).
>>204751618Why do you think your life is worth more than that of a child's?
>>204751618you said human not person.and the personhood argument, like every argument expressed above, relies on taking advantage of a transitory phase in any organism's life, where they're developing, to downplay the role of a murderous interference
>>204747439If abortion is murder then climate denial and inaction is murder too.
>>204751667My life isn't worth more but I don't want to die. I have a survival impulse. A child is weaker than me that's all that matters.>taking advantage of a transitory phase in any organism's life, where they're developingAll life is transitory. If you let it live, it may just die anyway. Whether you do or not doesn't matter much.Pro lifers are similar to vegetarians. The same applies there you could dismantle every slaughterhouse, but then all those creatures would just die in the wild anyway
>>204751354well, they want to kill their own kids which is worse
>>204751840A bunch of cells is not a kid.
>>204751667A fetus isn't a child. A child is someone from 0 to 19 years old and your age starts at 0 when you are born.
>>204751852You are a bunch of cells
>>204751852you're a bunch of cells as wellthe difference is nobody killed you before you could talk
>>204751867>>204751873Wrong, the embryo looks like a fish alien, I look like a human.
>>204751863And why do you think someone's life only starts when they come out of a vagina?
>>204751891What about severely disfigured people? The form shouldn't matter to determine the identity
>>204751801>My life isn't worth more but I don't want to die. I have a survival impulse. A child is weaker than me that's all that matters.
>>204751905Why wouldn't it be when you're born?
>>204749750Why does this matter? Here in Europe we dont have 9 months abortions and in Italy the limit is set at 3 months
>>204751954You made the claim, answer the question. Why do you think coming out of a vagina grants a person life?
>>204751974And why 3 months? Why not 2 months and 29 days?
>>204752019For the same reason you can get a car license or vote at 18 years but not at 17 years and 364 days
>abortionWhore problems. Can't bring myself to care or have an opinion.
>>204751985Because that is when it becomes a life separate from another being. It's also a universal standard that has never been challenged until 50 years ago, but I don't think you're seriously challenging the legal standard of personhood anyway.
>>204747439I never gave a shit, I'm no embryo.Why would anyone obsess over some bitches' reproductive organs unless you're a legit incel chud?
>>204752019Why can't we have sex with 17 year olds? Why not 17 year and 11 month olds?
>>204752120>Why would anyone obsess over some bitches' reproductive organsbecause there's another human inside
>>204751617>killing my childrenWho's ever suggested that?Aren't consenting adults making decision on having a child together? Or you've decided to chose the town rapist path of procreationmaxing?
>>204752136So?..We can collectively decide to disregard them as humans till birth for the sake of eugenics and family planning
>>204751667A fetus isn't the same as a child and fetuses are less conscious than those that are already born, thus they have less moral value.
>>204752065>For the same reason you can get a car license or vote at 18 years but not at 17 years and 364 daysThat reason is completely arbitrary for the sake of easier legal enforcement, now why do you think the lives or unborn children should depend on such arbitrary laws? >>204752117Good thing lawyers don't determine who is or isn't a person. A foetus is a person dependent on another mother, a foetus is a separate life, their are babies who are born after just 5 months of gestation and with the help of modern medicine they grow up healthily, would you have been ok with murdering those children had they spent the extra 4 months of a normal gestation in the womb?
>>204752221Do you think the lives of comatose people have less value than the lives of conscious people? >>204752158The unborn child can't consent to being aborted
>>204752133>>204752065these criteria are arbitrary because life begins at conception but we decided that it's okay to kill your own son so there has to be a window where you can legally do it>>204752158nope, the woman has the final say>>204752196and I decide not to
>>204752289>the woman has the final sayShe shouldn't
>>204752278>can't consentEven after birth its legal status is not the same as adult, let alone prebirth.>>204752289How did the scenario of your partner suddenly deciding to abort a child you were certainly planning to have came to your mind? Isn't that unreasonable anxiety?>decide not toFor the sake of what? Adherence to subjective understanding of what's natural?
>>204747439I had sex and still think abortion is murder. Women just like to cope - they get angry because they know it’s true.
>>204752360he said something like "women won't fuck you if you don't support abortion" so I replied that I don't care about fucking women who support killing their kids, don't read too much into it
>>204752239The fetus is not a separate life from the body that it is inside until it is born. No child exists inside of another person. What you're talking about is a fetus. A child is a person who is at least 0 years old, with 0 starting at birth, and with a maximum limit at some other age. Children is a group of people defined by their age, and a fetus does not have age.
>>204752289>so there has to be a window where you can legally do itOkay.
Why do you believe in natural rights?
>>204752239Because at 3 months the fetus stops looking like a gay alien and start resembling a human
>>204752506You're twisting the definition of 'child' to leave out unborn children. A foetus is a child who exists inside another person.
>>204752698"Unborn children" is oxymoronic. A fetus is not a child, it's a fetus.
>>204752766>A fetus is not a child, it's a fetus.The word foetus derives from the latin fētus which means offspring or young in latin.
>>204752815And?
It's simple:Baby is brown: I'm pro-choice Baby is white: I'm pro-life
>>204752827Admit that you're twisting the definition of established words to suit your false ideology
>>204752854Projection.
>>204752897See >>204752815the established definition of a foetus is an unborn child.
>>204752920I don't see the word "child" in there, and besides, the premise that a word's meaning is eternally and completely contained in its etymological origin is laughable.
>>204752095I care, I want them to have a choice.I don't want to live under a tyranny.
>>204753065>the premise that a word's meaning is eternally and completely contained in its etymological origin is laughable.So you admit that you're changing the meaning of foetus
