Do they know which tribe they come from? Does it matter to them at all?
Why so many threads about Latin America by you?
only people whose living family speaks the language. otherwise they could be 100% indian genetically and not have the slightest clue of the culture
>>221232251latin america is so foreign to me, i want to understand it, and i like to troll a bit sometimes tooit all comes from genuine interest thougheverbeitall
>>221232213>Do they know which tribe they come from?no because spanish didn't keep records of anything like that
>>221232308>otherwise they could be 100% indian genetically and not have the slightest clue of the cultureDo people like that see themselves as native? does their nativeness matter to them?
>>221232213We're all mutts m8Also it varies from country to country. Some are more native amerindian than others. And Dominicans, Colombians etc are mixed with nwords
>>221232564>We're all mutts m8Yes, but is your native side important? Would two Mexican differentiate each other based on one being half Zapotec and the other being half Maya?
>>221232213What tribe nigga? We are all some kind of mestizo
>>221232404depends, but mostly not
>>221232903Yeah but you descend from some native people at some point? Just like how Americans say they're a quarter Cherokee, but they aren't, and you actually are.So what would that quarter "Cherokee" mean to you? how does it matter in your self identity?
>>221233364>Americans say they're a quarter Cherokee,i've never heard anyone say this IRL.
>>221232213I have like 2% taino ancestry from my Puerto Rican side but a lot of that side of the family larps like theyre native americans which is hilarious because half of them are blond
>>221232213I know but it's not common. My moms family came from Durango and Jalisco about 140 years ago and had church records stating they spoke Tepehuan and Huichol. They were middle class so were literate and had paperwork. The Tepehuan side were silversmiths and had some cows/goats. The Huichol side made clothes and boots. I read that the natives in Jalisco have the highest rate of tertiary education and college degrees in Mexico and are generally better off than most natives so that makes sense.Funny enough my great grandpa still understood a very small amount of Tepehuan as his grandparents could speak it and when he was stationed in Arizona leading up to WW2 he could have basic conversations with the Tohono natives as their languages were very similar.The rest of my family were from Norf Spain and Germanoids.
>>221233364none of that happens here, the native side is more like a mascot the populations use to larp, mexicans are aztecs, guatemalans are mayan, peruvians are incas, chileans are mapuches, it's all an abstract idea that applies to everyone in the country
>>221233851But do you know what your native side is? Do you really have no ties to it besides LARPing?
>>221234018I haven't got a clue nor has it ever come up in family reunions, newly independent mexico pushed to have a single mexican identity making everyone learn spanish, during spanish rule they let the natives segregate themselves but after independence everyone was forced to integrate, pretty much all the natives were catholic by the independence days anyway so there's no such thing as real natives anymore
>>221232404Usually not unless they have a living relative that was part of a specific amerindian group. My peruvian friend acknowledges he's native (grandparents are aymara)
>>221234177>pretty much all the natives were catholic by the independence days anyway so there's no such thing as real natives anymorewrong. the maya revolted in the 19th century and quintana roo and were led by creolized pagan religion
>>221234264> In 1850, the Maya of the southeast were inspired to continue the struggle by the apparition of the "Talking Cross". This apparition, believed to be a way in which God communicated with the Maya, dictated that the war continue. Chan Santa Cruz (Small Holy Cross) doesn't sound very pagan
>>221234218So even if somebody is clearly 100% native, but they come from a spanish speaking and catholic family, they do not see themselves as native?
>>221234389Yeah. Often they'll view themselves as "latino" or "mestizo", because the point for those assimilation was to integrate them. During the colonial era, the objective was to convert them to Christianity and turn them from their "pagan roots". After independence, the national governments led by criollos and/or mestizos undertook policies to integrate the unassimilated natives to the national culture/identity.
>>221234506that's fascinating
My family are generic 50/50 mestizos I looked up the history of the region of where my family lives, in jaliscoThe native people would have probably spoken nahuatl but been outside of the sphere of the actual aztec empireBut, you know, nobody there knows anything about that. It was all done hundreds of years ago and everyone speaks spanish and has been assimilated into the typical mexican culture, a mix of influencesAnd you know what? That's ok. We are proud to be descendents mexica, and proud to be conquistador. And we are damn proud to be Mexican
Are you the same French flag that posts about how everyone in Latin America is native and almost no one has European ancestry?
>>221232213When I went to canada people said I looked like either chinese or a native american but in mexico indios are much browner than me. I'm kind of pale in comparison
>>221232213There's only 2 kinds of people that care here, 100% indigenous prople trying to save their culture and 99% europeans that have an indian great great great grandpa just so they can larp as natives
>>221235657My gf is a blonde grey-green eyed Angloid and she claims she's more Lakota then White just because her eye lids are slanty. But that's just from FAS.
>>221232213>LatinosThey dont have a "tribe" dumbass. You are conflating natives and latinos. Most latinos are decendents of spanish or portugese, with very little amerindian genes.My brother in law thought he was mexican though until he had a DNA test and it turns out his mom (who is mexican) slept with a native american dude, so he is half native american. long story short: he dont give a fuck about his "tribe".
>>221234305>Holy Crosses are physical crosses that must be guarded and fed several times a day according to Cruzoob tradition. Every householder has a small domestic cross clothed in a diminutive huipil (woman's dress) and with a mirror hung around its neck. This little female cross was known in Pre-Columbian times as Ix Cel (Little or Female Tree). The holy cross is known by the maya as La Santísima or Ki'ichkelem Yuum. Ki'ichkelem Yuum Juan de la Cruz ,according to the legend he was a Maya warrior of xocen who became the interpreter of the messages of Yuum k'uj(God) to the Maya macehual during the Caste war . Another legend says that Ki'ichkelem Yuum Juan is the messenger of God who came down from heaven to deliver the messages of Yuum K'uj to the Maya Macehual . Menifestated in form of a cross by the grace of God . Other names Ki'ichkelem Yuum Juan de la Cruz Tata Tres Personas, Juan de la cruz Balam tun ,Juan de la cruz Puc. In addition to the village patron cross and the household crosses, there are special lineage crosses for important lines, four guardian crosses at the entrances to town, and other crosses that guard sinkholes and wells.
Latino is a meaningless word.The natives existed in different numbers across the continent.Central America had millions. The upper half of South America had some, the bottom half almost none.The way miscegenation happened differs for each nation, as well as the composition of ethnicities. My cunt, for example, has little to no native heritage. It's a majority mix of african and portuguese, with some japanese, german, italian and lebanese sprinkled on top.It's all just different variations of mutt that don't really align with each other and don't even bother to remember their past.The cultural root of the indigenous was destroyed to give way to the society of the iberian colonists and mutts.
>>221232213I'm Métis (Mestizo). My ancestors were from the Mi'kmaq tribe.
>>221236224>97,6% European>"I'm Métis (Mestizo)"Genuine question, are you really not considered white in white European society if you show them those results? No way this one drop rule shit is taken that seriously
>>221236224Be serious for a second
>>221236242He isn't considered truly white here. Functionally he will be white but he will always be seen as different. Kind of like a white ethnic.
>>221232213they are literally using "indio" as an insult, they are doomed
>>221236224Bruh
>>221234675Then why don't you live in Mexico?
I could probably guess if I cared but honestly op no we don't care. We're Spanish now. We have churches. We wear clothes and do not cover ourselves in shit anymore.
>>221236349I mean, that's besides the fact I'm Latin American.>>221236269>>221236427What? Métis means mixed in French. We're descendants of French Canadian and Indigenous.
>>221236512Plenty of Precolumbian societies had proper clothes. In fact one of the things the Spanish specifically remarked on with amazement when encountering Mesoamerican civilizations like the Aztec was the fact that they had formal proper clothing unlike the Indigenous cultures the Spanish previously encountered in the Caribbean
>>221236242In Canada I'm not considered white.
>>221232213Not tribe, but the place ur ancestors comes from (old colonial towns) For example most of my family come from the south and mid sections of Bolivia, cattle- farm land valleys that feed pic related And one of my great-grandmother was French woman ( last name was Stuman) that use to own a drugstore in a town close to pic related :3 gotta get that silver man :3
>>221236512>we wear clothes and do not cover ourselves in shit anymoreYou could've mentioned something about sacrifice or cannibalism instead of something known to be false.
>>221232403why didn’t the Indians write down records in their own native languages then?
>>221236591Based anon reposting my infographI will say though that my friend group has not shared it publicly yet outside of 4chan, they are planning a grand announcement of it sometime soonish, so if you're gonna post it, try to only do so here rather then on other sites (not that I can stop you)
>>221236617They did in many cases, the Spanish burned most of the texts>>>/his/18459883
>>221233364>Just like how Americans say they're a quarter CherokeeAmericans say that for financial gain. Some tribes have grown very rich from casinos and oil and gas. If you can prove native ancestry you can receive multiple checks per month and not have to work.
>>221232404My maternal family is clearly native and most of them use indigenous names, but they insist we are white or whatever, so they didn't bother keeping anything but the names. And that was only kept because they thought it sounded nice.
>>221236719yeah all those written languages destroyed by the Spanish. That also made every tribe member just forget their entire alphabet they had been writing with their entire lives and centuries before European contact. All those written languages gone completely because of a few Spanish book burning bastards.
>>221236788>if you talk in your language, juan whips you, so you don't>your child grows up learning less nahuatl and more spanish>repeat this for a few gensit is that easy
>>221236788Firstly we're talking about city-sates, kingdoms, and empires here in Mesoamerica and the Andes with their codices and quipu records, not "tribes". EX: Teotihuacan was a city in the same area as the Aztec but 1000 years earlier, and Tlaxcala was one of the states which allied with Cortes against the Mexica of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, and each was respectively on par with some of the largest Roman and Spanish cities of the time. Tlaxcala was also a republic with a formal senate and is described by Cortes as seen in pic related. The Aztec Empire was nearly, about as, or more densely populated then Spain itself was at the time, and some recent studies put Classic Maya civilization as being more densely populated then Italy during the height of the Romans (though even to me that seems like a stretch)>That also made every tribe member just forget their entire alphabet they had been writing with their entire lives and centuries before European contact.The Spanish did ban most Mesoamerican books and writing systems, they were considered devilry. Some books using Prehispanic writing systems were still produced under Spanish supervision for a time, but only in exceptional circumstances for the purposes of documenting stuff like prexisting tax demands the Aztec Empire had in place to better aid the Spanish in taking overIn fact even European style books which documented local histories and practices were banned and stamped out at times For example, a royal decree from 1577 instructed people to turn in all copies of the La Historia General de las Cosas de Nueva España by Sahagun, a friar, to be destroyed, and warned "...that you are not to allow any person to write anything concerning the superstitions and way of life these Indians had, in any language..."
>>221232213>Do they know which tribe they come from?No. Only real indios know, not 1/128 larpers like in USA. >Does it matter to them at all?No. Unless, as I mentioned, you are a real indio.
>>221236872Obviously this did not happen as evidenced by... The variety of languages in Spain and the surviving indigenous languages in both south and central america.
>>221239127Would have been based to torture mexicans for linguistic reasons though.Wish it was common practice today
>>221239155yeah i genuinely don't care
>>221237347This seems like a more legit version of the control that was exercised over them.
>>221232213They all seem to larp as Aztez or Mayan, but that's dying out with the older spicanos
>>22123923299% they weren't either aztec or mayan is the thing
>>221239265I know. I don't see that much anymore though. Chicano zoomers seem to split into 2 camps - the white camp that want to be white and have white friends and marry a white person, and the black camp that likes black culture and has kids with black men.
>>221239265>>221239284>>221239232Considering there are many millions of speakers of Nahuatl and Maya languages put together, and there's many times more then that who descend from them within the past few generations who no longer speak the languages, I don't think it's just ""larping"
>>221239284manpregnant BBCied chicanos.... ?
>>221234018most latinx are far more likely to know about the origin of their european (even spanish) ancestors over their native onestheir native side is a meme, they're brown(er) spaniards nowadays
>>221240676Considering how proud they are of being mestizo and keep talking about how their culture is a mixture, I believed it would have more importance to them and be at least a bit more deep than just having some unspecified native blood
>>221240912Keep in mind this is 4chan so you're naturally going to have more of a right leaning set of responses, and I would wager the people who care more about indigenous history and heritage don't fall into that camp
>>221241863that might be true
>>221233598I am this poster.>>221232403>>221232564>>221233851>>221234177This seems like a fake rhetoric, my family are almost a pure 50/50 Euro/Amerindian mix and we still know exactly what mix we are, I think a lot do, but maybe that's an American Mexican thing. I think in Mexico many do know a lot but have some retarded insecurities about it, artificially imposed on them and repress it. Ultimate your own personal accomplishments are a reflection on the contemporary state of your racial background, so it makes sense that unfulfilled people diminish or embellish based on trends.
Latinos come from rapist spanish & Portugese so they have alpha genes in themPresent day spanish people come from spanish rape victims of Morocco so they have beta genese in them
>>221232213Don't listen to the "everyone is mixed" posts, it's bs mutt projection, this is especially not true in Mexico, Guatemala, Ecuador, Peru and Bolivia
>>221244755Nobody designated you to talk here, please, leave....
>>221245067What are people in your country then?
>>221245463Mostly mutts since costa rica was not as densely populated in precolumbian times, this does not negate what I said doe(Indigenous panamanians do migrate here temporarily in coffee harvesting season)
>>221245463This map is a helpful guide, blue areas = native areas
>>2212450671 cherrypicked test does not represent 125M people
>>221245693nightmarish color grading
>>221232335Just be glad you don't live next to them
>>221246229There is no way they are worse than nafris and niggers
>>221246111damn you are far more indian than I thought
>>221246111I didn't say or even imply it did, also>posts a dna study that includes unmixed indigenous reference populations
>>221236617My nigga, that's like asking French people if they know whether they're descended from Aquitani, Arverni, Sequani, Allobroges, Helvetii, Belgae, Aedui, Senones, Carnutes, Civitates, Bellovaci, Remi, Aremorici, Veneti, Nervii, or Morini.Nobody is gonna remember fucking anything from that long ago. The Spanish conquest happened 500 years ago.Besides, tribes mix and shizzz. I got ancestors from Veracruz, Tamaulipas, Nuevo León, Coahuila, and Puebla. I can't tell if I should identify as Coahuiltec, Huastec, Mixtec, Thpanith, or some other weird mystery mix mortadella di Bologna.Do you ever hear black ppl goin "Oh yeah, I'm 1/16 Igbo, 1/32 Akan, 1/64 Yoruba 1/128 Hausa 1/256 Mandinka 1/512 Wolof and a whoppin 1/4 Sotch-Irish"? Nah, they just "I'm black". It's only the ones who live in Africa in their ancestral homelands and still speak their ancestral languages that can tell you which ethnic group they identify as. Same goes for natives in the jungles of Central America or the Amazon rainforest.>>221236719Homosexual LARP. Nobody knows about that shit except for Gran Autismo players.
>>221246639He's not Indian. He's Amerindian. Indian = Jeet. Amerindian = Tonto or Chief Great Eagle
>>221246361Dude, what do you think "La Motosierra" was inspired by?
>>221246111Jai Hind cabrones
>>221247069You understood exactly what I meant though, I don't know why you're feigning ignorance
>>221247310stfu suce ma bite putain
>>221247010Considering there are still many indigenous peoples who have maintained their identities and who still speak their languages, I don't think your post makes much sense
>>221232213I don't know what towns from spain my white half came, I didn't know from which town in chile my grandfather came until a couple years ago, or from what argentinian town my grand grandfather came from, I also don't know what communities or small towns my native side came fromI don't really care tho.
>>221246111are you retarded
>>221247948It makes a fuckton of sense. France has 2 languages that survived the Latinization of Gaul 2k years ago, which are Breton and Basque. The Spanish conquest of the Americas began 500 years ago.To put things into perspective: most of Gaul still had plenty of speakers of Celtic languages all throughout the Roman era, and Gallic did not officially become extinct until the 8th century AD, almost 9 centuries after Julius Caesar conquered Gaul and 3 centuries after the Western Roman Empire collapsed, and that was in spite of the fact that the Romans made no efforts to preserve Gallic in written form, unlike what Spanish missionaries did by preserving Amerindian myths and historical narratives in their original languages.Also, in places like urban Mexico, Colombia, and Peru, people were encouraged to adopt whichever identity was most suitable for them. In many cases, this meant that people with partial Spanish and partial Amerindian ancestry would try as hard as possible to be classified as mestizos (mixed-race folk) rather than as indios (Amerindians), and to mix even further with pure Spanish people so their descendants would be classified as criollos (Spanish descendants), which was usually possible if a person looked "white". Lower-class people in the Spanish colonies in the Americas would often mix with Amerindians from other tribes or Sub-Saharan African slaves, which is what happened to many of the cimarrones (maroons, or descendants of Amerindians and blacks) and many people in Southern Mexico, Colombia, and Peru. These race-based discrimination and forced miscegenation policies were encouraged deep into the 20th century by post-colonial governments, so that means that it is not at all surprising for Latin American people to grow up without knowing what genetic hodgepodge they have in their blood.
>>221248083No, this is Patrick.
>>221232213Having native or indigenous features is highly discriminated here, even being castizoalthough here the natives had lighter skin and their mixed heritage went more unnoticed
>>221232213Is pretty easy to know where one comes from. And I like reading about the civilisations here.>>221235604Kek same. People think I'm either Chinese or Japanese. Even here people think I'm a foreigner.
>>221232213I have no "native" side, so none.
>>221248703>Even here people think I'm a foreigner.You prolly just need to have gay sex with more black men.
>>221248752The Basques and Celtiberians are the natives of the Iberian peninsula.
It's really funny that spics here are comparing things that happened just 500 years ago with Roman shit that happened over a thousand years ago. You know most people in the old world can trace back their ancestors for centuries, right?Most people here can't because this is an incompetent criollo run shithole where most people have no records beyond three generations.
>>221248834I know I can trace back my ancestry to local records in Veracruz and Nuevo León. I got some relatives who have compiled family trees extending deep into the the 17th century, but not further than that.Also, you have to consider that in Europe, most people lived very close to where their ancestral homeland was and usually only moved to nearby towns. It was only really in the Americas where people started doing massive trans-continental migrations that made it impossible for people to trace back their ancestry just by using baptismal and marriage records at local churches.
>>221246111how do I read this
>>221248765Turn off the VPN.
>>221248834>no records beyond three generationsmost people can if they know where they baptized, the churches keep records for that
My parents know what tribe they're from because they still speak their native language. They only do it between each other because even they know their grandparents were hella stupid which is why they came here. They don't read and don't believe in taxes so I have to do all their DMV paperwork for them. They also don't believe DMV because jesus will rescue them (or algo). My father openly drives drunk in front of me because it's only a crime to god if you hit somebody. The place they come from has goats.
>>221248834>You know most people in the old world can trace back their ancestors for centuries, right?Not really. Wars and revolutions happen everywhere. Here in Spain it's hard to get records for anything from before 1936, when our civil war happened.I bet it's similar with other European nations post WW2.
>>221248834This, most people don't even know where their surname comes from, and many surnames are misspelled.An example Charles Gardes was written Carlos Gardel
>>221246639the phillipines is literally 90% indian and acts like it
>>221232213from what i noticed, it depends on the region you live inin the central part of the country, where there was more intermarriage, mestizaje and the tribes were forced to "civilize," it's basically almost impossible to find people who know what tribe their ancestors belonged to, is ironic because it's the region that most enjoys larpingbut in the north or the south, where mestizaje didn't become a thing until about 100 years ago, it's more common to find people who know their origins. my abuelo spoke the local indigenous language and lived in an indigenous village, but i never really connected or cared with that side of the family because they were all alcoholics, and my cousins hate me for not being extremely poor like them
>>221250031>my cousins hate me for not being extremely poor like themThird world mentality summed up in one sentence.Good on you for doing better.
>>221233364I'll ask, do you know the gaulish clan of your ancestors? How important is knowing the gaulish heritage for the average French?
>>221247010>Nobody knows about that shit except for Gran Autismo players.People not knowing about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. The Mesoamericans absolutely did make thousands of books which were burned in the 16th and 17th centuries under Spanish rule, which led to a gigantic loss in the amount of available sources. That's a factual thing that happened.It should be utterly embarrassing that that's something "nobody knows about", when it's an immensely significant series of events. >>221250031There were no tribes in Central Mexico (unless by Central Mexico you mean shit like Guanajuato, Queretaro, San Luis Potosi, etc rather then Mexico City, Hidalgo, Tlaxcala, Puebla, the State of Mexico etc), the area had urbanized city-states, kingdoms, and empires going back many thousands of years before Spanish contact.
>>221251230>thousands of books which were burnedhow'd you know they were thousands though, where's the register of the total number of books burned
>>221232213OP made a so clear and easy ask to answer and latrinxs retardeds need to play the vyctim or being arrogant proud spaniards of Valencia. I hate this people of IQ 85
>>221251805En el pinche manuscrito la descripción dice que se quemaron ropas y libros, jamás especifica cuantos pero se puede suponer que quemaron lo que tenían en el momento y que fue una acción repetida y recurrente.https://lienzodetlaxcala.unam.mx/manuscrito-de-glasgow/
>>221251966Yes, we know our iberian side but also what kind of injun we are mixed even tought it was 200 years in past...There is tons of artesanatos, clothes, styles of music that is a blend of rondallas, valsa, soap of fish, cheese, goat meat, wine castelian, basque or lusitan but with small cultural injun motifs blended, like there is some food in South of México called barbacoa, its olmec with 3 000 years recipe that you cook in ovens under the mud, but like mixed with spanish origined beans. Venezuelans does arepas that are similar to pan de sal spanish but with local spices, paraguayos play polca but in guarani etc...
>>221232404matters if scolding whitesdoesn't exist if scolding someone one shade darker than them, they become pure evropean phenotypes>>221232213It matters to Lucha Underground watchers I guessThen again it got cancelled after a while so maybe not
>>221250292This was LITERALLY 1500 years ago anon, do you genuinely think this is comparable? Most of the mixing in Latin America occurred between the 17th and 20th centuries. I thought you would be closer to that native side, especially since you all identify as mixed, and claim your culture is mixed too, I thought then that it would have some importance to you.
>>221232213Very close. As we genoicded all whites last century. We are all coffee with cream bantus here.
>>221251230they were alliances of city states made up of the same tribescall it what you want, but using words like kingdoms or empire just because tribe sounds primitive only demonstrates an low key inferiority complex
>>221232213Pill me on shrinemaidens of Ixcuina/Tlazōlteōtl, could anyone just wander into the temple and watch them pee in a golden bowl to honor her?
>>221248420Basque has barely been preserved in France unlike in Spain with more speakers. Nearly a million in Spain and like 50k in France. Respective basque pops are up to 2 mill and 130-300k in Labourd, Basse-Navarre, and Soule.
>>221252256He is trolling You, spics are fucking liers... Yes, any brazilian know what part of Portugal came his avô and what kind of tribe came his injun grandma. Same thing some mexican mutts that know if he is son of Cahuatemoc, or Pedro de Mendoza, and not neither even some genealogy research, by the region of El Salvador that you live, there was some padron of a type of iberians of X region that settled down there + the civilization american that you belong too, by the regional traditions you can trace it
>>221250292>How important is knowing the gaulish heritage for the average French?very
>>221252519
>>221252256>I thought then that it would have some importance to you.i didnt mean to sound harsh (if i did then sorry), but to give you perpective of how it's seen hereculture is accepted as of mixed-origin for its recent admixture but the people dont REALLY perceive themselves as something besides their birthplaceyou can see someone calling himself white and tomorrow mestizo and then mixed and then brown. because those arent important terms around hereonly amerindians that kept their culture are differentiated
>>221252643As I said ... AI confirmed my answer
>>221252256also the brazilian that replied to you is the one trolling, the pic saying that colombians come from andalucia? i guess you can find that on books but you ask someone here where is his family from and he will say "here since always", no culture of grandma telling you where she was born here
>>221252763Applies to most people. Do you really think a rando will say "oh yeah uh I know it's from this region and city, so and so"> Only if recent (1950s)+ immigrant to a region from their grandparent. I know argies tend to do this
>>221233364That identity tends to get lost with time, it's obvious people know that they have native genetics and culture, and only a fool would deny the average Mexican is some sort of mutt, but they don't actively embrace it or don't know with precision about it. Only people who actually live in native communities are active practitioners of their heritage and identify themselves as an ancient people, usually the way you can tell if a community is native, is if they have their own work of self-government which has traditional communal values. For example I am supposed to have otomi ancestors and my town is supposedly a former ancient otomi enclave but I don't really know for sure who my ancestors were, I don't speak the language, we practice some supposedly ancient festivals and eat local food that no other part of Mexico has and the town history is basically lost to time because all we know is that it was otomi and that "our ancestors" were basically at war with a nahua (vassals of Mexicas or aztecs) enclave next to our land which is also a dumb reason for the descendants of both factions to be at odds about land. TLDR it depends on the person, modern life, globalization, centuries of I'll management and elitism, wars and catastrophes have made people just abandon their identity to end up as mutts who genetically speaking are native but culturally they aren't.
>>221252848>Do you really think a rando will say "oh yeah uh I know it's from this region and citythats what op asked, if we knew about ancestors from ethnic backgroud pre-admixture
>>221252763Dude, colombians even have extremaduran behaviors... Talk spanish singing and are lazy to work, is amazing how latrinos not like determism genetic and cultural as snowflakes. In the mind of colombians, ever existed a colombian brown civilization over milenia?
>>221252276calling them tribes just demonstrates you are racist
People didnt care to register that because the mesoamericans & castillians didnt care either. Mesoamericans were used to mix with foreign nations all the time (the northern hunter-gatherers mixed with the sedentary toltec nations) and spaniards had a lot of centuries mixing with berebers, germans, etcPlus catholicism isnt compatible with racialism, thats why most racialist movements happened in protestant countries (catholicism is universalist)
>>221253101yes, i am antisemitic and indophobic, but what does that have to do with the topic?
>>221232251Because France only gets Africans and nafris instead of this
>>221253328>>221253492Jesus, wonder why only Brazil is the leader of Latin America, o also eso. Only brazilians give some serious and scientific answer wirhout try trolling people based in his political bullshit views of world
>>221253613Even fascist Italy & Spain didnt appeal to "race"Because being catholic & racialist is contradictoryThe rise of agressive ethno-nationalism runs paralel to the decline of catholicism worldwide
>>221253613This mexican retarded said the same gilberish that both hispanists and marxists say: oh not, injun's daughters was raped by Giga Chads with mega cocks, le evil badass castelans, and injuns was so weak seeing this thing wihout being agents of history, really sad
>>221253821But not, many iberians actually married injuns, inside the Catholic church, with pappers left and GIVE HERANCE to its children in form of farms, slaves, golden, its surname, etc... >>221253725And do you think invented shit like mexicans are so rapebabies that even barelly ideia I have about my culture will help Catholicism spread?! I know retarded araucanos that want to spit Chile in half, but such cases are minority, for me, know more about your regional mexican identity only give you more respect by all your fellow countryman culture... And also stop give prejudice toward writter X or Y that tried to explain mexican culture, is a nice font of informations if you see under neutral eyes
>>221251805"Thousands" might actually be lowballing itDiaz mentions Moctezuma II's head tax official and how "he kept the accounts of all the revenue that was brought to Montezuma, in his books...and he had a great house full of these books". Even the unabridged version doesn't go into much more detail then that, but by "Great House" Diaz surely means a Mesoamerican palace, and those tend to be fairly large: Moctezuma II's royal palace is said to be around 40,000 square meters, for instance, though I would assume his library that Diaz mentions wouldn't be quite that big. Meanwhile for the city of Texcoco, Fernando Alva Ixtlilxochitl describes the central precinct, royal palaces and civic buildings, and the libraries there in pic related. He also doesn't say how many books there were, but it's clearly a sizable amountThat's just two cities (Tenochtitlan and Texcoco), and these were likely not the only book collections within those cities: For example many individual noble families likely kept personal collections of books/documents with land claims and genealogies judging by the fact that some families presented some in early colonial court cases over things like land rights. To expand from there, the Valley of Mexico had around 50 major cities (including Tenochtitlan & Texcoco) and a few hundred smaller towns and villages, with the Aztec Empire as a whole having around 500 subject and vassal states (including(?) in the Valley of Mexico), and each of those states usually had at least a few to a few dozen population centers, and Mesoamerica as a whole had another few hundred states outside of the Aztec EmpireSo the region had thousands of cities and towns, likely tens of thousands if you include smaller villages, and if we assume that at least the cities and larger towns had at least a few books, that'd be many thousands of books, probably more like tens of thousands1/2 (technically this isn't my first post in the thread but it's my first big infodump, so)
>>221254443>>221251805cont:Also, if you read these articles (not that Mexicolore is always reliable, but it generally is, and in this case it is quoting professional researchers they consulted):http://web.archive.org/web/20250410150659/https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/maya/ask-experts/how-many-maya-books-existed-before-the-conquesthttp://web.archive.org/web/20240221065746/https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-experts/how-many-aztec-books-were-there Dr. Brittenham says that each Maya royal court would likely have at least a few books, while Dr. Davíd Carrasco says there were likely "thousands" speaking of Aztec (it's not clear if he just means Mexica, or Nahuas in general) books and speaks of different communities having their own collections of them, while Dr. Patrick Johannson guesses there would be around a dozen per capulli (a sort of neighborhood unit), and hundreds each(?) in the royal libraries of Tenochtitlan and TexcocoSo, again, you extrapolate that out to thousands, maybe tens of thousands of population centers, you're going to get at least that many books, multiplied by a bit. >>221252276Sure, you can use "tribe" to just mean "ethnic group" or "clan", but nobody goes around calling the Athenians or Spartans "tribes". Call it an inferiority complex, but the reality is that these were urbanized state socities and the average person thinks of the Mesoamericans as unga bunga savages, so yeah, I'm going to try to stress that they were city-states etc rather then "tribes" to try to give people the correct mental image and framing. 2/2 for now.
>>221232213In a general sense, yeah. But I want to clarify some things first.The popularization of Quechua as an ethnic label is extremely recent, but it has somewhat consolidated with its introduction as an ethnic category in the last census. Before that, the label was largely shaped by broad academic categorizations, especially in English-language sources, that don’t really know what they’re talking about, similar to how they misrepresent the actual range of the Atacama Desert or what El Niño means, among other things.Traditionally, Quechua has been a language category, as in the percentage of Quechua speakers in censuses. And Quechua (language) is the Spanish exonym for Runa Simi (runa = people, simi = language).The word runa can be very loosely considered an ethnic label, since it originally meant people but during the colonial period began to shift toward native people, as it is often used nowadays.Still, it is very general. So I wouldn’t consider runa a true ethnic label.
>>221232213Funny story I have about this. My family is from Nicaragua, my grandfather told me a story about his childhood. He told be how American and European ethnographers would visit his small town to gauge how many Indigenous people lived in the area. The thing is, these researchers paid people for their participation. So you had a bunch of people claiming tribe status to these white people for some pocket money. My grandpa got $1 usd for saying he was part of the Rama people, even though he's your typical mestizo with no idea about that part of his history.
>>221254923Within Peru, people identify first with their place of origin the most, so someone from Chumbivilcas Province, Cusco Region, is Chumbivilcano/a, from Canchis, Canchino/a, from Canas, Caneño/a, and so on. They feel closest to their administrative territory and/or locality, since the groups that formed the Inca Empire, like the Chumbivilca, Canchi, and Cana, roughly map onto modern territories (provinces in this case) with shared culture.This identification can also exist (or coexist) at district (subprovincial), town, or village level, and may exist within a territory without covering all of it, as with the Q’ero people of Paucartambo District, province of the same name, Cusco Region. Others form large majorities in defined areas, like the Chopcca in the Yauli and Paucará districts, Huancavelica Province, Huancavelica Region.A key pattern is due to Inca-era provincial names were often derived from the groups inhabiting them, the Incas were quite imaginative at that. Thus, someone from modern Huamachuco (town and province) is almost certainly from the Huamachuco people who lived in the area, someone from Recuay, the Recuay people (not the archaeological culture but a lesser-known pre-Inca chiefdom), from Huaylas, the Huaylas people, Jauja, the Sausa people, Huancayo, the Huanca people...Some identities transcend modern borders, like the Chanca, claimed in both Ayacucho and Apurimac, where the Chanca variety of Quechua is spoken, and in Chumbivilcas, Cusco. But also retain distinct sub-identities, since the Chanca incorporated and/or were closely related to neighboring groups, like the Andahuayla or Aymarae, now provinces in Apurimac, among many many others.
>>221256409In summary, they identify first with their locality, often a longstanding identity, despite its evolution through time. Traditionally, they did not say things like "I am Quechua” (many still do not), since the term referred to a language category. This was especially true a century ago, when over two-thirds of Peruvians spoke Quechua, and more Spanish (bilingualism), so it was not distinctive enough as a primary marker among populations.>This identification can also exist (or coexist) at district (subprovincial), town, or village levelFor example, usually each town or village has its own type of traditional clothing, with a general similar style typically seen at the province or district level. But not at broader levels (regional/macro-regional), except for some modern generalized styles, which locally are not considered traditional, even if outsiders may see them that way, since they are not seen outside Peru.
>>221254923How does Quechua as a linguistic category/label differ from it as an ethnic label/the actual ethnic labels that would have been used prior to that last census?>the Recuay people (not the archaeological culture but a lesser-known pre-Inca chiefdom),I didn't know there were two different Recuay cultures, interesting.
>>221254923>>221256409>>221256872It's different though because Peruvians are basically all natives. I was thinking more of mestizos
>>221256903since the quechua was the language of the empire, many people spoke it even if they were not ethnically incanI have examples from my country. The uru uru, now almost extinct, was a language spoken by the people around lake poopo, also an extinct lake (crazy to think that lake died, since a lot of songs and poems and stuff referenced it throughout bolivia's history).The people around Uru Uru moved and started speaking what the rest of the people around them already spoke: quechua.The only principality that resisted total cultural conversion were the aimaras, they are a proud and belligerent bunch even today, so they are very different from most other quechua speakers in my countrywe usually divide people of andean origins into quechua and aimara but as that peruvian anon said if you ask them what they are they are usually more prone to tell you "I'm north potosi-an" or "I'm juqumari" like their villages and their surrounding sphere of influence.in the lower lands also language has been a unifying factor to classify people but they identify more with the community they belong to ("I'm a cavichi", etc)
>>221232213Natives are not latinx
>>221256903The major rulers or curacas of the “province and town” of Recuay in 1534 were Echipo-Collay (Coh-yay) and Chiliayco, a standard traditional moiety division of Hanan and Hurin.The Recuay were divided into ayllus (ah-ee-yuh) or clans: Hecos, Chaupis, Hichoc, Chaquimarca, Allauca, Picos, Chauca Churo, Shulca Churo, Chaupis Churo, and Saño mitmas (mitma or foreigners from Inca times). There was also a Recuay mitma population in Huaylas.For example, the Ayllu Hecos, like every original ayllu of Recuay, worshiped the lightning in their illahuasis (iya-wasi or lightning house) and believed themselves to come from two groups:The Yaro vilca, who came from the Huanuco Region and, in more ancient times, from far away Puquina-qocha (today Lake Titicaca). Other non-Recuay accounts mention the Yaro who lived south of Huanuco in the Pasco Region and were forefathers of the Yaro-Willka, willka meaning grandson.And the Llacuash (Yacuash), local peoples who had lived in the area since time immemorial, recognized as sorcerers and mountain hermits.One of the main wak'a of Ayllu Hecos was Marca Llictan (Yictan), which had its pacarina (place of origin) in lake Llaja-qocha (yaha-hocha). It left three sons to populate the area.Another was Huaca Yarovilca, which also left three sons in the area.Ayllu Hecos adoratories were Aguarayoc, Pampaviñca, and Mullavillca. The management of the religious aspect was in charge of a body of six priests and ten priestesses.The ayllu founder was a man called Churo.
>>221258538The Recuay lived in the southern part of the Ancash region where Recuay today stands (duh), north of the Caja (Casha) people, where the Incas founded an important provincial capital: Cajatambo.
>>221258599There was also a minor group of note (and Inca province) between the Recuay and the highland Lima cultures: the Ocros people, who now form a province in the Ancash Region south of Recuay Province.
>>221256903The Peruvian census has not historically been very interested in ethnicities. One earlier label was indio, later changed to peasant, as it was considered too racist a category. It accounted for about 4/5 of Peru’s population during the Oncenio de Leguia (early 20th century).Quechua, as it is now used, is too vague, since it includes Quechua speakers, people who do not speak Quechua but descend from Quechua speakers.Originally, Quechua meant a specific small ethnicity in what is now the Apurimac Region, who were subdued by the Chancas and “liberated” by the Incas. These original Quechua were neighbors of the aforementioned Aymaraes people, the “original” Aymara, as the term Aymara gained popularity during the colonial period to replace that of Colla, which in turn had been popularized by the Incas for a group larger than the original Colla nation of the Puno Region.
>>221258599>>221258538Are you the anon who sometimes posts about Andean architecture on /his/?How much do you keep up with Andean history and archeology in general? I do posts on Mesoamerica and would love to keep in touch if you're into Andean stuff and you'd be down to answer questions and exchange resources and such.email me at saintseiyasource@gmail.com if you're interested (and if you are that anon who posts on /his/, sorry for asking you this again, but I figured i'd ask in case you weren't that anon)
>>221259060Yes, I post on his sporadically. I don’t post much these days though, partly because my old laptop is cooked, but I get by. The data is still there, but it’s such a hassle.
>>221249407just look at the colours of pure populations and the proportions of them in mixed ones
Vast majority of people not at all. Those cultures are dead and buried.
>>221250031I'm a brown mestizo and pretty high income and have noticed a lot of Mexicans get extremely pissed off when they learn I'm not a poorfag to the extent they backstab and sabotage. Both Indios and Whitexicans pull it. What's up with that?
>>221259374If you ever get all your resources organized, please upload a rar or zip file and let me know about it. By the way, do you have any detailed site maps of Chan Chan?I found some site maps in academic sources and in the UNESCO World Heritage Site documentation for it, but each includes some structures the other excludes, and both are missing some structures compared to the model in pic relatedAlso interested in detailed maps and floorplans for Moche stuff>>221261384There are multiple single Maya languages that have more speakers then every indigenous language in the US and Canada put together.
>>221261490it's the same everywhere bro, if the rest of your family is poor and your family is rich they badmouth you to no endI made friends with the daughter of a cousin a couple years ago and she let it slip a couple of nasty things they used to say about my momshe's a saint, mind you, she's always helped family members who were in trouble, even if my dad and us sometimes cared little or told her she shouldn'tI didn't have the heart to tell her, she thinks her love is reciprocated, doesn't know the rest of the family will always hate us for the money we have.
>>221249016>I got some relatives who have compiled family trees extending deep into the the 17th century, but not further than that.If you are from Nuevo León, going back to the 15th century is not that hard. Basically half the city was founded by like 10-12 families at the start, and all of them are well documented.
>>221232213>Do they know which tribe they come from? Nope.>Does it matter to them at all?Nope.Most Mexicans only know about the day of the dead and we use some indigenous words like aguacate instead of the word used in other Spanish speaking countries. That's all we know. I think many would find the word indigenous insulting o algo.
>>221261960>more speakers then every indigenous language in the US and Canada put togetherYet I don't know anyone who speaks a indigenous language.
>>221263130>half the city was founded by like 10-12 familiesMy family on my dad's side is originally from Bustamante (Nuevo León). Apparently one of the founders was an ethnic Tlaxcaltec named Bernabé González, which sounds curious to me, since Gonzalez is my paternal grandmother's surname, but is also not one of the surnames of the original founding families of the city of Monterrey.Then again, according to a DNA test me and my dad once took, my dad has literally no Amerindian ancestry, whereas I'm about 3/16 Amerindian, so that means I probably got all my Amerindian genes from my mother, and thus rules out the possibility that my paternal grandmother could have had any significant Amerindian ancestry.
