Despite not being a huge manga reader, I do miss Kasen a whole lot, I get why she won't ever come back, but still, she was a very cool character in my opinion
>>48003621Sex hermit.
>>48003621I miss a lot of characters honestly. Why does ZUN forget so much characters? I always thought it would be easier to give more roles to one character instead of going through all the thought process of making another one.
Someone here has to become a famous game dev so they can contact ZUN and remind him to put her in the next game
>>48003774There is already Toby Fox, but he only got Ran.
I love Kasen!She's tied for position as my second favorite of all!
>>48003815Well uhm she's my favorite
>>48004156>>48003815I want to know, what makes you two like her so much? Whats so good about the pinkie winkly?
>>48004238Lecturing moralhu, the better of the two. Nothing wrong with Eiki, but Kasen is better.A stern exterior with strong morals, so often lacking in Gensokyo! A soft underbelly with her love of sweets and odd secrets!Plus her true nature and interaction with the other devas is interesting to see explored and depicted, especially if she's the straight wo/man to their shenanigans
>>48003752Eh, I respectfully disagree. One thing that makes a story less engaging in my opinion is when a character does too much. Makes the world feel smaller.Lots of characters can be a blessing and a curse. On the one hand it makes the world feel more lived in, on the other they're a nightmare to actually write. Or you can be ZUN and just not write them and forget about them.Now, what is the appropriate amount of stuff a single character can do depends. Someone like Kasen, I agree, should be more involved what with being a Sage and all. Aya, on the other hand, is a clear case of favoritism, since she's supposed to be a low rank wagie, yet she's always getting her nose where it doesn't belong and being important.
>>48004318Aya was ZUN's first girlfriend, he got abducted by her on Mt. Tengu as a teen.
I still get to visit kasen daily for very cheap
I just wish she still showed up in cameos at the Shrine or something. If Aunn can show up for 53 Lotus Eaters chapters without getting a single line, I don't know why Kasen can't be there from time to time too.
>>48004318I agree with you. I think that a character doing too much makes the history dull. Even a protagonist shouldn't do everything by himself. But the problem in Touhou is that ZUN forgets the characters quickly. ZUN really needs to learn to write stuff, I have seen that he is indeed capable of writing interesting and deep things; but he is still far from perfect.
>>48003621What is there to do with Kasen anymore?
>>48014829Childbearing arc.
>>48014829Reunite with the arm, locking her away doesn't allow her to change like the other oni have. >>48015213Kasen's child would have the wildest rebellion phase when he/she is a teen
>>48005317Welcome to Keines world.
>>48003621Show me your tits, Kasen!
>>48015269I'm not sexually role-playing on 4chan cunt
>>48015344Show us your arm then, Kasen!
>>48004281>Strong MoralsWhat’s funny is that the ending of WaHH showed that isn’t true. Not only did she put Reimu in unneeded danger with the potential for her death with little regard for her safety just to fix her own mess, she also proved that was truly incapable of ever really changing as a person When she recombined with her arm, the arm became the dominant personality, Kasen knew her current self would always fall back into her truly oni ways unless she forced the evil out of her. The Evil side always trumps her Good nature. She literally gained nothing but just shoving her arm back in a box and just pretending she’s a good person now… when she’s only good when she literally shoves all her evil away. It’s no wonder ZUN can’t do anything with her, there’s nothing more to say about her, she can’t ever truly grow it change, because her true nature is an irredeemable monster that could never get along with anyone.
>>48015846My head canon is the hermit training is to be the one in control when they merge. They both must feel like something is missing. Also her desire to control the evil all in one go and never bring it out is a recipe for failure, moderation is needed, they both have problems
>>48015846>>48017278I think if we're looking at it through just what happens to the characters, a full oni Kasen would probably be having moodswings as her different sides fight for control. But that's just surface level stuff, I believe.This is kinda why I feel like the ending thematically has Kasen take back possession of her arm by stuffing it in the box, the part where Kasen "fuses" is just a representation of her struggle with her bad side and she ultimately wins out due to the ties she's made with humans.At least that's my opinion.
Both Kasens should just kiss already, and then kiss Reimu.
>>48017278Bitch didn’t even know what hermit training was for like a thousand years until Komachi told her that being a hermit wasn’t a purely aesthetic choice. She just wants to get into heaven and being a hermit is the easiest way. She’s never gonna reconcile with her arm, the ending pretty much outright spells it out. It’s honestly hilarious how little she ever actually grows a person, she’s literally the same chick at the beginning of WaHH as she is at the end.
>>48015846>>48017278Kasen is a youkai; youkai are incapable of adaptation or change by their very nature. This is the entire reason why Gensokyo exists and needed to be made. To contravene that would be to undermine one of the core conceits of the setting. Kasen can only function as a non-malicious, supernatural entity due to what is essentially a sustained exorcism. The moment that's broken, she goes right back to her nature.
While you were discussing the non-thematic aspects of the story I was marveling at this cute Halloween Kasen
>>48018300this girl looks far too flat to be Kasen
>>48018218Ironically, even then, she’s not THAT good of a person. She still was a sage that trapped all those innocent people in Gensokyo, she still manipulated Reimu into being her pawn, she still gets outright offended at Sumireko not being afraid of Youkai and gets everyone to gang up on her to teach her a lesson nearly getting Gensokyo destroyed in the process, and she still just murders vengeful spirits for fun with a smile on her face. Even at their best… Youkai are still kind of assholes.
>Kasen thread getting derailed by grimtards again
>>48018312She had to cut them off because they were also evil (erotic).Please understand.
KASEN IS A FUCKING SLUTE!!! SHE LET ME GROPE HER BREASTS EVERY TIME I MET HER!!!
>>48018963>kindestThat'd probably be Keine, Nemuno or Eiki. Kasen is demonstrably more than a bit of a jerk, and one of Byakuren's strongest points as a character is that she's a massive hypocrite. This is a good thing, mind.
>>48018963>kindestHyporbole doesn't help your case. They're not as bad as some people around here make them out to be, but they do have their bad sides.Byakuren specially. She's not evil, but she's very selfish, as all the other religious leaders in Gensokyo. The only reason why she's more moral than Kanako or Miko is because she's actually too dumb to even scam properly.
>>48018963I mean, being the kindest Touhou us like being the sweetest Warhammer character. So like one bit above satan.
>>48019581Grimtards love to post this out of context in spite of the fact that in the same chapter, Komachi talks about it as though it's identical to Youmu's Hakuroken, i.e. sending them to Nirvana, not actually destroying the soul.
Hopefully I have enough willpower to practice using Kasen more in the future
>>48018300Beautiful.
browsing this thread with my Kasen fumo on my lap, please be nice, I don't want to upset her
>>48003621I kind of enjoyed the "Reimu's adopted mom" relationship they had, so I wonder how it could pop up in hypothetical later installments
I think she's adorable
>>48019720No… it’s way more implied she’s outright obliterating the soul so hard it gets removed from the cycle, not that she’s sending them to nirvana/heaven in Touhou like traditional enlightenment. Komachi is arguing that only souls that reach enlightenment are allowed out of the cycle, but that Kasen is sending them to heaven. It also wouldn’t make sense in context, why would it be framed as her doing something villainous or out of spite to things she thinks are disgusting if she’s actually sending them heaven?
>>48003774Better yet, convince him to hire a writer or two to help keep track of all his characters and give them things to do.
>>48014829Given her animosity with Yukari and Okina, maybe we could see a Youkai Sage civil war arc?
>>48020795You act as though it's meant to make more sense that she's doing full-blown soul annihilation, which would be an extreme outlier compared to everything else in the franchise. It's also largely not framed as her being villainous aside from her comment clearly regarding herself, and Kasen has an established track record of self-loathing. Just be honest that you're a troll, dude.
>>48020231>Now do you remember? Who you are? What you were meant to be?
>>48020885It is absolutely framed as absolute annihilation, she outright despises the vengeful spirits and she’s literally crushing them into nothingness. It’s supposed to hint that she’s not as squeaky clean as she presents, and even hints at her true nature as an Oni. And I’m pretty sure it’s framed as villainous when the panel zooms into her face as she talks about true villains. Her self loathing would just reinforce her seeing herself as a bad guy. It’s not a troll to point out ZUN made her a complex character and not a perfect goody two shoes.
>>48021003Cope harder retard. Grimsokyo remains fanon.
>>48004281I'm not either of them, but something I really like about her is that she's a moralfag who is flawed but not to the point that she can never do the right thing. She has so many moments where she's willing to lie or run away or manipulate people because the alternative would be inconvenient for her. She sometimes gets caught up in things where she should really know better. But she's still able to smile and make peace and show little acts of kindness. It adds up to something I can't help but find endearing.
>>48021003You continue to be a fucking retard.
>>48021317>>48022887>Grimsokyo doesn’t exist This bitch has a body count that would make Jason Voorhees blush and she did it all with her bare hands. She ain’t nothing but grim
>>48018963>grimtardsNigga, WaHH is canon.
>>48018963I mean… what else is there to talk about with Kasen? We already got 10 years of “le wholesome mommy to Reimu” in the manga so that’s nothing new. Kasens only interesting aspect now is her relation to her arm and how evil she was in the past, take that away and you’ve basically run her character dry. ZUN even admits she’s basically filler at this point.Like how many times can you just repeat >Kasen comes to Shrine>Reimu does something unethical>Kasen is mad and wags her finger>Reimu is annoyed>Hijinks ensue
>>48023085Yes, evil Kasen did binge eat on a couple of human beans.
>>48023468A couple? That’s at least 10 cans
>>48023487Cans?
>>48023462Introduce her to uncomfortable situations like when she ran into SuikaIs why she should show up in Lotus Eaters, also lets you learn about her current and past relationship with the other oni
>>48024092But that’s still just treading stuff that already happened in her manga. She’s already done the “oh no I’m near other youkai that know I’m an oni or remind me of my past” shtick like 10 times, what could she possibly do in Lotus Eaters that would be that different? ZUNs right she’s kind of in a dead end character wise.
>>48024388I mean she did a bit of that in the manga but it's not like she went around talking about what exactly they did in their spare time as oni, most of what she did was just avoiding Suika and mysteriously loaning Yuugi's sake stuff.I think it pretty much stands that Kasen could easily be used in more stuff if you're just willing to free up her expressions a bit and showing us stuff that doesn't usually happen. In Oriental Sacred Place you get to see her basically do what I suppose is one of her Sage jobs, which might be turning violent youkai into less unruly youkai. Given this you could make a story about Kasen mucking about with that instead of plathering to Reimu about not making a new get rich quick scheme. Either that or you can just look at non-H doujin works which are a bit more liberal with her character, but can still stick somewhat to what's important with it.
>>48023085Yeah shes evil and eats people but imagine how nice it would feel if you were the one human she was nice too and wouldn't eat
>>48023085anon, no one's denying that things were much darker in the pastpeople are saying that things are not that way in the present. Arm-chan and oni Kasen are both relics of said past.
Of all the Oni in Gensokyo, and indeed, throughout history, there are none that have perfected the form in quite the same way that Ibaraki Douji has. Perfect, flowing locks of hair the color of Sakura Petals, proper horns, not the little nubby things that Zanmu has, and an impeccable sense for fashion between the intricacy of the shirtless tabard and rose, and its contrast against the simplicity of the plain white dress.From just a glance it's obvious that this is the pinnacle, not just for Oni, but for women, without any possibility for competition. It is for this same reason that, as a "man-eating youkai" she has absolutely no rivals. For a man to comprehend even a fraction of what she is will without fail result in any hope of being able to attack her vanishing. Other, "modern" youkai make vain and fleeting attempts to imitate her perfection, but they always fall short in some crucial manner, often lacking the warm and forthright nature of the Oni.This is what humans and youkai alike fear in Gensokyo. A creature that can monopolize the most valuable commodity of the human village, its men, completely effortlessly, would lead to all power being centralized in the hands of her and her alone, to say nothing of the fact that the inevitable flood of half-oni as a result.Is there anyone that could even hope to tame her?
>>48025897All around very true postHopefully a 190cm gaijin like me can
I wish
>>48025708>Things are not that way in the present The fucking arm was still killing people when only a tiny portion of it could escape in modern day. This shits a walking Unit 731 even when contained and Kasens a fuckin idiot so who knows how long it’ll stay secure.
>>48026759>It APPEARED to have already eaten numerous people.Given Kasen's track record with parts of herself, it wouldn't surprise me at all if she's wrong. It's also worth noting that it's not like the Arm is irredeemable either, as her reason for doing things by her own dialogue is more about being a "proper oni," and considering that she hasn't seen what oni in Gensokyo are like, she'd probably stop if that was explained to her, and would've been dormant when merging with Kasen if not for Kasen planning to reseal her from the start.
>>48026786I really doubt the story is implying that the arm didn’t murder a bunch of people and Kasen was just exaggerating, especially with how the arm is portrayed after it gets free. And call me a Moralfag but I feel like when you’ve stacked a literal mountain of corpses of innocent people while you cackle about how their your slaves now, you kind of fly pass the event horizon of redeemability anymore. Normal Kasen is fine but if ZUN wanted to show the arm has potential to grow… he wouldn’t have had Kasen literally shelf the arm and never mention it again.
>>48026848ZUN literally is allergic to character arcs, and most of those corpses should be from before Kasen and the Arm split. You can at least try to make your bait believable.
the arm's just a thematic way of saying Kasen rejects her bad nature and the whole final confrontation in the story is meant to be her finally defeating it, it doesn't matter if the arm itself is irredeemable cause her separating from it thanks to her friends is part of the story fulfilling its themesthis focus on superficial redeemability is basically seeing the forest for the trees, Hermit Kasen is the Kasen who's overcome (most) of her glaring issuesEven then I'd argue the only reason the oni version of her didn't is because she's been dormant for 1000 years, Suika managed to become much friendlier over time despite being the literal leader of the three oni's troupe that was breaking shit everywhere
>>48027461>Hermit Kasen is the Kasen who's overcome (most) of her glaring issuesHowever you look at it, that's definitely wrong, Hermit Kasen still has several issues with her duplicitous behavior, and her self-rejection is a problem in its own right. It's not Kasen rejecting bad habits and changing, it's literally the opposite, it's her cutting herself apart so she doesn't have that part in the first place. Oni Kasen before the Arm takes over appears to take the best parts of both, but Kasen's inability to try and help her other half grow past that, compared to literally every other Youkai she interacts with, ends up holding her back. Kasen's arc isn't overcoming her issues, it's her self-destructive behaviors keeping her from doing exactly that, and it's a complete robbery.
Show mammaries please, Kasen.
>>48027478This is just superficial stuff, the subtext is all about Kasen trying to keep herself in check by resealing the arm. It's probably not about growth but about staying above her own desires as an oni. My posts explicitly mentions that she still has issues but that's just natural, she's still an oni even though she's trying not to be. Her whole plot as a hermit was in effect about conspiring to put her oni self back in the box, figuratively. It's closer to a vampire starving itself out of affection for a human if that allegory makes sense.>it's her cutting herself apart so she doesn't have that part in the first place.This is what I mean about having a surface level observation of something. That doesn't matter, the subtext does.It's not like it's supposed to be a traditional arc either, Kasen doesn't "grow" in a traditional sense, but she doesn't lose either, so I think it's definitely more about coming to terms with her previous nature and keeping it under wraps. Checks all the boxes with "welcome back partner", her sharing a drink with it, the arm going into a box locked away in her house and so on.So no, in other ways you look at it, it can be right. Either it's that or "it's fine to be yourself, but keep it under wraps"The story is never framed as a tragedy so the angle you keep going for where she's "robbed from growing" makes no sense to me, quite simply. It's not like she's appeared lots since either
>>48027444Yeah, my point was the arm was already bragging about kill people before they split and clearly still had a bloodlust, so I see no reason why Kasen saying it still killed people would be a lie.
I can and will fix her.
>>48027784The subtext is the exact opposite of what you said, that's the issue.>The story is never framed as a tragedyAnd ZUN calls Keiki a villain, how the story is framed is irrelevant, especially since it's explicitly from Kasen's POV, so obviously she wouldn't see it as such.>>48030333It's not that Kasen would have been lying, but that it's possible that she was mistaken, especially since it was still sealed in the box when she found it in the Outside World. The Arm bragging about killing people isn't even unusual for a Youkai. Her own dialogue indicates that she attacks Reimu not out of malice or bloodlust, but just as a matter of propriety, which matches the description of Oni that PMiSS gives:>Oni and humans, through human kidnappings and oni exterminations, may well have built up a relationship of mutual trust.
How do we save Kasen's threads from headcanon battles?
https://x.com/takeez3/status/1847274269296005238kasen cursor!
>>48030471>It's not that Kasen would have been lying, but that it's possible that she was mistaken, especially since it was still sealed in the box when she found it in the Outside World.I mean it wasn’t completely sealed, it was literally leaking out on the page. Why would Kasen just randomly accuse the arm of killing people if ZUN was trying to imply she lied? It literally doesn’t make sense in story fit to her bring it up otherwise. >The Arm bragging about killing people isn't even unusual for a Youkai. Her own dialogue indicates that she attacks Reimu not out of malice or bloodlust, but just as a matter of proprietyY’know, I think the Oni literally showering Reimu in the thousands of corpses she slaughtered and then ate isn’t exactly posturing for shits and giggles. I’m pretty sure she’s very serious about her intentions, just throwing that out there.
>>48031700I'm not sure if you're trolling at this point or genuinely misunderstanding what's being said. This seems like you're having trouble figuring out that it's possible for a character to be mistaken about things without actively lying.>the Oni literally showering Reimu in the thousands of corpses she slaughtered and then ate isn’t exactly posturing for shits and giggles.Youkai posturing is literally a mainstay of the franchise, Anon. They have to do that to even stay alive, and considering the Arm was in the Outside World, where it would be even more difficult to survive, it's natural to open by flexing like that.>I’m pretty sure she’s very serious about her intentionsAnd if you actually read my post, you'd know that I never said she wasn't, simply that it wasn't out of malice or bloodlust as per the Arm's own words, which you still have yet to address.
>>48019720Nirvana IS soul Annihilation, soul suicide, as much as buddhist try to cope and deny it.
I think she looks cutest with just slightly messier hair
>>48033114Yeah but in Touhou it’s just Heaven… which is closed off now so now nobody can achieve nirvana and youre fucked forever.
>>48034985I always thought the heaven they are talking about is Tenshi and company, but that if you die in the outside world you go to Christian heaven. But I wonder what would happen if you died in Gensokyo.
>>48035049You die in Gensokyo you either end up getting your soul dragged to former hell to burn for eternity in a furnace or Komachi throws you into the sanzu river cause you’re poor and have no friends.
>>48032127What evidence could you possibly have for Kasen to either be lying or wrong in her assumption that it appeared to be eating people when it is never even implied to be that way? It just seems like you’re arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. >Youkai posturing is literally a mainstay of the franchisePosturing is for misleading someone or trying to make myself impressed, this bitch was not posturing that she was gonna kill the shit out of Reimu she was going to do it. And it was absolutely about Bloodlust she was literally lusting for Reimus blood. Eiki herself even stated Reimu had a 50/50 chance of getting martyred by the action. So yeah, the Arm was absolutely acting in MALICE.
>>48038139>you’re arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.Nice projection, Anon. From the very first post I made it quite clear why it's possible Kasen was mistaken, in that the arm itself was still visibly sealed in the box. It's far from impossible that the arm was still somehow eating people, but I'd like to hear how you suppose that would work logically, as in the first place it was explicitly somewhere that people wouldn't even easily come across it, so the whole notion that it had eaten several people while still sealed is tenuous, but that's not the main issue here.>this bitch was not posturing that she was gonna kill the shit out of ReimuAs usual, you're arguing a claim that was never made.>Eiki herself even stated Reimu had a 50/50 chance of getting martyred by the action.The page you posted just says that Eiki had plans no matter which outcome occurred, please learn to read.>the Arm was absolutely acting in MALICE.Already debunked that earlier. Cry about it.
>>48035049many politheistic religions have a concept of Heaven pretty similar to the popular, albeit wrong (christian heaven is not a place where you get reunited with your loved ones, you just cease to exist and return to yahveh's infinite body, eerily similar to nirvana in buddhism) version of christianity, and since touhou is a politheistic setting, THAT heaven is closed.good news is that you can wriggle down back to the mortal realm as a ghost and keep being a nuisance to everyone, which is honestly not that bad
>>48038524I mean… ain’t it literally the other way around? The Christian Hell is the embodiment of oblivion, your soul is literally thrown into the pit of fire to be destroyed, and only through Jesus to you achieve eternal life. The absence of god is the absence of existence, so it would be the total opposite of Buddhism as nothingness is a punishment
Unleash your udders Kasen!
>>48039449two faces of the same coin. your 'soul', aka 'ego', the thing that makes you 'you', is destroyed, whether to be tormented in hell, or gladdened in union with Yahweh
>>48039449>so it would be the total opposite of Buddhism as nothingness is a punishmentalso, nirvana is not nothingness, but a state of being where you also lose your ego, and join a collective consciousness, 'becoming whole again'think of it as you being a drop of water: in buddhism, you fall onto the sea, which is nirvana, and in christianity, you descend unto the earth, it being Yahweh
>battle between nobledark and grimdark>discussions about good and evil>religion also being mentioned here and therehow does this silly ol' hermit/oni with a love for sweets have the most profound of threads? you dont see this nowhere else but in her threads
>>48043304guess you've never been in a byakuren thread
>>48042278>>48042355Don’t know where you’re getting this honestly. Hell is the destruction of the self, the self is still preserved in heaven you just bask in the light of god for all eternity. There’s no collective consciousness implied especially in the New Testament where it’s literally described as a city and a paradise Nirvana being nothingness is vague, but either way you lose your individual ego and thought, so it’s still basically just death because your consciousness is YOU and without it you might as well be dead.
>>48043304>”Why does a character that is defined by not only her relation to religion and mythological tales, but a direct morality question about good and evil that permeates her entire manga culminating in her literally walking a different path from her evil self have discussion that talks about this subjects instead of talking about her fat tits It’s a mystery
>>48043452>New Jerusalemthis is not the christian Heaven in any way of form, it even says coming down out from Heaven, making a clear separatiom between the two>the self is still preserved in heaven you just bask in the light of god for all eternityIts not. A thing about christianity is that you also put aside your ego, your sense of individuality, to make way for Yahweh's plans. the ego is seen as a sin, and Yahweh is the absence of ego. logically, when you reach christian Heaven, your ego is left behind, you ceasing to exist, and joins the 'creator' once moreno comments on the nirvana thing
>>48043648>you ceasing to exist, and joins the 'creator' once moreIn Christianity you don't cease to exist you ascend to a higher plane of exitance with a new spiritual body and are a literal (lesser)god.The body will be glorified, imperishable, and powerful, and will be filled with the Holy Spirit. It will be like the body of Christ, and will be a permanent and indestructible part of the Christian's existence. The Bible says that the body will be transformed so that it is "like his glorious body" (Philippians 3:21).At the resurrection, the body and soul are reunited, and the Christian will possess this body-soul-spirit for eternity in Heaven.The new universeThe Christian will live in the new universe and earth with their glorified body-soul-spirit.True death is ceasing to exist Christian Hell isn't the final destination for the wicked. It is more like a holding cell until Final Judgment. It is temporal place. There was a place called Abraham's Bosom in hell for people that were righteous that is now empty because Jesus opened the way to Heaven.Hell is not the same as the Abyss, Gehenna, The Bottomless Pit, the Lake of Fire and Outer Darkness.The Abyss, Gehenna and the Bottomless Pit are all names for the same place and no humans are in it. It is a place for fallen angels and also temporary till Final Judgement.The Lake of Fire is for all unregenerate humans and rebellious fallen angels after Judgment before they are giving True Death aka they cease to exist.Other Darkness surrounds the Lake of Fire and it is where true darkness exists reserved for the ungodly humans of the worst kind until they too are thrown in the Lake of Fire for a bit before they are wringed from existence.I have no clue where you got all of that from.Sounds like you are confusing Hinduism with Christianity.Humans are all figments of Vishnu's imagination in his beautiful dream and when he wakes up you cease to exist and go back to being part of Vishnu.
>>48043648>That is not the Christian heaven>Literally appears in the CHRISTIAN New Testament in the exclusively CHRISTIAN Revelations>Literally comes FROM HEAVEN meaning that Heaven is a physical place bad not just a existential existence Again, there’s nothing in revelations description of Heaven that even remotely implies that Heaven is anything like the spiritual Nirvana. It is objectively a place you go to be with god as an individual, with walls and streets and buildings. Even if you wanted to say that the “old heaven” was that, that’s not the Heaven that is ultimately promised for Christians in the end. >Its not. A thing about christianity is that you also put aside your ego, your sense of individuality, to make way for Yahweh's plans. the ego is seen as a sin, and Yahweh is the absence of ego. logically, when you reach christian Heaven, your ego is left behind, you ceasing to exist, and joins the 'creator' once moreWhere are you getting this? Because it is absolutely not the CHRISTIAN version of Heaven, it sounds like you’re more describing the Jewish interpretation of Heaven. Heaven is distinctly spoken of in the Bible as a place that people live alongside God in perpetual happiness, not becoming one with him in Ego Death.
>>48043304>>48043327Miko threads as well although this is the first time I've seen it mostly be about Christianity
I swear christfags are becoming more and more annoying lately
Brings up Christianity Gets upset when Christians show upLamo
I find it strange how much Taoism has influenced Japan but very little of it is known in Japan.Most Japanese magic rituals are based off Taoism like onmyodo, shigandang, shugendo, even the widely practiced ritual of setsubun has its base in Taoism.Taoist fulu charms became ofuda in Shinto.
>>48043327>byakurenSome Buddha Quotes"A woman of the world is anxious to exhibit her form and shape, whether walking, standing, sitting, or sleeping. Even when represented as a picture, she desires to captivate with the charms of her beauty and, thus, to rob men of their steadfast heart.“Of all the scents that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman. Of all the tastes that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman. Of all the voices that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman. Of all the caresses that can enslave, none is more lethal than that of a woman.”“It is better for you to have put your manhood in the mouth of a venomous snake or a pit of burning charcoal than a woman.”"Women are insatiable in respect of two things: sex and motherhood; so insatiable that they cannot free themselves from these cravings before death.""Seducers and astute, they destroy the noble life."The Buddha is reported to have allowed women into the sangha only with great reluctance, predicting that the move would lead to Buddhism's collapse after 500 years, rather than the 1,000 years it would have enjoyed otherwise.Women are not considered as a complete entity in Buddhism. Their body is not considered fit to attain enlightenment and become Buddha. There is a concept that women are not complete until they attain enlightenment to become reborn as a man. It is clearly stated in the Bahudhatuka-sutta that there could never be a female Buddha.Buddhism is not about preservation and understanding.Enlightenment (or, the state of being fully awake) is defined as having a completely empty head, your mind being an endless void.A person who has attained the goal Nibbana is thus indescribable because they have abandoned all things by which they could be described". The Suttas themselves describe the liberated mind as 'untraceable' or as 'consciousness without feature', making no distinction between the mind of a liberated being that is alive and the mind of one that is no longer alive.Enlightenment is a destructive process. Ithas nothing to do with becoming better, preservation or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing through the facade of pretence. It's the complete eradication of everything we imagined to be true.Achieving the state Enlightenment causes the individual to quite literally lose any sense of self, it's hard to even call someone who has become Enlightened an actual individual.Buddhism calls internal dialog “Chattering Monkey” and tells us that silencing this voice is the first step on the path to enlightenment (nirvana).Buddhism casts shade on farmers, merchants, tradespeople, etc. It doesn't say these people will go to hell, but it does spend enough time saying they're wasting their lives and if they were "really" good they'd stop all that nonsense.Anyone doing anything of material value is effectively compromising their spirituality.Buddha never taught Pure Land Buddhism. Prior to the development of Pure Land Buddhism, the only way to enlightenment lay through an arduous path of study and practice that was out of reach for most people.The Mahāyāna scriptures were composed in a variety of disparate social and religious environments over the course of several centuries, diverge widely from each other in content and outlook, and were in many cases meant to stand as individual works representing rivals to the entire Hīnayāna corpus.The Ekottara-agama also contains various unique passages on buddhānusmṛti and states that buddhānusmṛti can lead to the unconditioned, nirvana, as well as magic power.Most of Asia adopted Mahāyāna Buddhism and its various branches which doesn't forbid having jobs or privilege monks unlike Theravada and liked its concepts of being reincarnated in a pure land Buddha field. Which is primarily focused on achieving rebirth in a Buddha's "pure land" or buddha-field, which generally speaking is a Buddha's field of influence. Buddha-fields are considered to be superior places to spiritually train for full Buddhahood, since a Buddha has compassionately "purified" it for this purpose and since in these realms, one can meet a Buddha face to face and study under them.Many Mahayana Buddhists strive to be reborn in such a place.Again Buddha never taught this.The Buddha himself never said that he's a god or a special being, he just taught people about a way to live without suffering,
>>48043892Damn bro, and I thought Muslims hated Women the most.
>>48043773No, I'm not confusing anything, many christian theologians insist on ego death if you truly want to reunite with Yahweh>>48043810meanwhile the Catholic Church has said many times that Heaven is not a physical places, also take note that in the verse, its 'heaven', as in sky, not 'Heaven'>there’s nothing in revelations description of Heaven aside from you wrongly identificating New Jerusalem as Heaven, there is very few, and small too, physical descriptions of Heaven. theres also what Jesus said about Heaven, but thats another thing>Because it is absolutely not the CHRISTIAN version of Heaven, it sounds like you’re more describing the Jewish interpretation of Heavenweird, as its the same as the christian one, and the muslim has the plus of getting 70 virginsand lets not even get into the territory of Jesus not even being the true messiah, as he didn't fulfill any of the promises he was supposed to do, and also saying that he would have his second coming before Peter's generation passed way only not to, does put a bad name on him. the new testament is very questionable through objective lensbut well, christianity is so full of contradictions and interpretations that the christian either accepts their faith without question, or lives forever in doubtin any case, we wont reach an agreement
>>48044888Ego death is correct but your instance of ceasing to exist is wrong.In Christianity, the idea of "dying to self" is the practice of denying one's own desires and plans in order to follow Jesus Christ and live for him. This is a daily action that involves giving up worldly pleasures and pride, and allowing Jesus to be the center of one's life. “The world” is the general name for all the passions. When we wish to call the passions by a common name, we call them the world. But when we wish to distinguish them by their special names, we call them passions. The passions are the following: love of riches, desire for possessions, bodily pleasure from which comes sexual passion, love of honor which gives rise to envy, lust for power, arrogance and pride of position, the craving to adorn oneself with luxurious clothes and vain ornaments, the itch for human glory which is a source of rancor and resentment, and physical fear. Where these passions cease to be active, there the world is dead…. Someone has said of the Saints that while alive they were dead; for though living in the flesh, they did not live for the flesh. See for which of these passions you are alive. Then you will know how far you are alive to the world, and how far you are dead to it.
If you guys wanna argue about christianity can't you make a thread about Touhou's heaven instead? I just wanna see Kasen
>>48044974>Touhou's heavenThat's just one of the Toaist heaven with the Jade Emperor controlling it.There are multiple heavens, or Tian, in Taoism, with different deities in each. Some say there are 36 Tian arranged on six levels. The highest heaven is called the "Great Web". Some heavens in Taoism are thought to be evil, such as in Shangqing Daoism. Some Taoists believe that after death, they can explore heavenly realms or become Taoist immortals. The Jade Emperor is the ruler of Heaven and presides over a court of important deities. There were many grotto-heavens in China, with the most sacred divided into ten greater and thirty-six lesser grotto-heavens. Doumu is the goddess of heaven, also known as Tiānhòu, Dàomǔ, and Tiānmǔ
>>48044974I want to see her... Naked.
>>48044961leta just agree to disagree, and post more of this cute lady
>>48044888>weird, as its the same as the christian oneJewish heaven has seven heavens. In the 1st millennium AD, Jewish scholars from the Talmud developed an elaborate system of seven heavens. Which is interesting as this version was written after the Bible. Talmudic traditions emerged within a literary period that can be traced back the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD. The Mishneh Torah was compiled between 1170 and 1180 by Maimonides. Before that there was only one Heaven Shamayim a dwelling place for God and other heavenly beings. Only the most worthy of humans were allowed there and only after being transfigured into an heavenly being while all other humans that were righteous but not worthy were sent to Olam Ha-Ba.Vilon (וילון), see (Isa 40:22)Raki'a (רקיע), see (Gen 1:17)Shehaqim (שחקים), see (Ps 78:23, Midr. Teh. to Ps. xix. 7)Zebul (זבול), see (Isa 63:15, 1 Kings 8:13)Ma'on (מעון), see (Deut 26:15, Ps 42:9)Machon (מכון), see (1 Kings 8:39, Deut 28:12)Araboth (ערבות), The seventh Heaven where ophanim, the seraphim, and the hayyoth and the Throne of God are located.Oddly enough the first heaven is similar to the Islamic one.In the garden is one's canopy, its beauty according to one's merit, but each canopy has four rivers – milk, honey, wine, and balsam – flowing out from it, and has a golden vine and thirty shining pearls hanging from it. Under each canopy is a table of gems and pearls attended to by sixty angels.The light of Paradise is the light of the righteous people therein. Each day in Paradise, one wakes up a child and goes to bed an elder to enjoy the pleasures of childhood, youth, adulthood, and old age. In each corner of Paradise is a forest of 800,000 trees, the least among the trees greater than the best herbs and spices, attended to by 800,000 sweetly singing angels>and the muslim has the plus of getting 70 virginsIn Islam, heaven is called Jannah, and is described as a garden-like place where those who have lived good lives will go after death: The Qur'an describes Jannah as a place of pleasure, with gardens, streams of milk, honey, and wine, and where the blessed will eat, drink, and recline.It's a place of worldly pleasures and of the flesh. Hence the 70 virgins and flowing liquor.
Since Kasen's arm form wears thights, what does regular Kasen wear? The sprite artist for ULiL seems to draw her with some form of panties at least
Suikannon
>>48052215Arm-chan wears tights to protect her modesty, Kasen Prime is (physically) a normal, well-adjusted girl so she wears normal panties, which means that Hermit Kasen, via process of elimination, goes commando at all times.
>>48053049approved!
>>48053049but Kasen Prime is an oni, she must obviously wear chains
>>48053120Damn Kasen going commando
>>48052841Cute
I feel like the biggest problem with Kasen is that the ending of WaHH let her get away with everything without having any resolution or consequence. Girl drags Reimus soul to Hell in a fight that could’ve ended with her being stuck in turbo Hell for all Eternity and it’s just not even brought up at all, and Kasen just goes back to business as usual without any change or growth or even a bit of self reflection. The fact she disappeared almost entirely from the series after this ironically makes it come across like she hung out with the shrine crew to ready Reimu to seal her arm, and after she got what she wanted she bounced forever. She’s honestly not much better than the religious leaders sne judges.
>>48003621>I get why she won't ever come backI don't! Why?
>>48061290According to ZUN, she's a "hard to write character." Which is his way of saying "How do I keep the status quo while including a character that actively wants to improve things?"
>>48061394>actively wants to improve things But you see that’s not true though. She all talk about it but she really just wants to judge people despite her inadequacies and gain enough respect to get into heaven and thats it. You’ve fallen into the classic ZUN trap of thinking a Touhou character has selfless intentions. you foolyou idiot
>>48061688Ah yes, because secretly helping animals that were beginning to become youkai stop attacking humans would definitely give her public respect and is selfish.Good people exist in Gensokyo. Seethe harder.
>>48059301she only disappeared from our perspectivethe epilogue makes it very clear that she plans to continue coming to the shrine for the foreseeable futureit's like getting mad because aunn hasn't shown up in CDS despite having a body at the shrine or getting mad about clownpiece not appearing in LE or CDS despite living below the shrine. if you take Kasen not appearing much as canon fact, it's basically just saying that you can't be bothered to actually engage with the story you're reading.
>>48061708Helping animals from attacking humans because if the youkai start attacking villagers that reduces the population which would lead to the collapse of Gensokyo (which despite what she says, she is very interested in preserving) isn’t altruistic Literally every nice thing she’s ever done she’s done to further her relationship with Reimu to groom her to seal her arm, or to gain respect, she’s never actually gone towards her “goals” or breaking Gensokyo or siding with humanity.
>>48061783That’s kind of ironic because Aunn has shown up like 20 times in the background of LE to remind you she exists while Kasen has basically been MIA outside of every single piece of Touhou media outside of one ending and a guidebook in the past 4 years. Woman was apart of almost every major event in Touhou history during the 2010s and has relationships with every major player throughout Gensokyo and she has less appearances in the 2020’s than a dog.
>>48020231WHEN YOU CAN'T EVEN SAYMY NAME
>>48062017Given the Anons that love to frequent Kasen's threads (and Byakuren's) it should probably beWHEN YOU DON'T EVEN PLAYTHE GAMES
I miss Kasen being Reimu's big sis/mother
>>48062140Touhou Project is a game?
>>48062140Well seeing how Kasen was made in a Manga, her backstory is from the manga, her character arc is in the manga, and her true form only ever appears InTheMangaI don’t think playing the games really matters here.
>>48062140I have played the game's she's in tho
>>48061708Yeah, you can do things that are both functional and altruistic st the same time.
Almost half a dozen posts in a Kasen thread that are barely related to Kasen. Sasuga, /jp/
>>48062919me on the right
Y’know, I don’t know if anyone’s made this connection but Kasen always felt like a bit of a self insert fan character honestly. She’s a great hermit even respected by the crown prince, she’s one of the big three sages AND one of the devas of the mountain, she’s the mentor and mother figure of the main character despite showing up randomly 15 years into the series, she’s a master manipulator better than mamizou, she’s best friends with Yukari and the only person to ever break through her ice cold persona, she’s the perfect moralizer and the voice of reason in almost every scenario, shes got deep connections and is respected by everyone, she’s got a deep dark past that haunts her, her true form is like one of 3 characters to ever beat Reimu in a fight, and she basically gets away with all her mistakes without any consequences or ever changing at all.Makes it even funnier that she’s been gone for so long. They pushed her so hard for like a decade and now she’s not even brought up as a background character in a bar. I think fuckin Rumia has had more recent appearances than she has.
>>48062954Oh, to be Ibaraki Douji's favorite skeleton.
>>48044991Attagirl, expose those melons!
>>48015846She didn’t just put her life in danger. It was her fucking entire afterlife. Basically, if Kaden’s gamble failed it would be literally impossible to retrieve Reimu from avicii. The fact Reimu doesn’t have trust issues is insane.
>>48064202>The fact Reimu doesn’t have trust issues is insane.She's just like that. Reimu is easygoing to a fault. She's a bit like Goku. Just so extremely laid-back (most of the time) that it becomes a little weird to even the other characters.She deserves a husband who is kind and reliable and will make sure to support her and make sure she's doing alright.Kasen's new role in the series should be to match up Reimu with prospective husbands amongst the village boys and ensure she finds the right guy for her.
>>48064371If only there was a man who'd come along and help out as a matter of course, not minding the esoteric reasons or the clearly inhuman acquaintances she keeps...
>>48064371not to mention that it's kind of Reimu's job. Don't forget that her very first incident had her rush into either Makai or Hell armed with nothing but a stick and a bouncy ball that killed her as easily as it killed everything else. Kasen's bigger fault there was that she was so determined to be secretive about it that she didn't make sure Reimu actually knew what she was doing even though Reimu probably would have readily agreed. frankly I'm more surprised that it took them a year to properly reconcile after the fact.
remember that kasen has sex everyday
>>48015846I feel like Kasen putting her arm back into the box is a testament to her strong desire to attempt changing at any cost despite Youkai (most likely) not really being able to truly change. She is willing to sacrifice a part of herself in order to improve as a being and acknolwedges the fact that her being incomplete it for the better of things as a whole. I think this choice is already a large step towards changing for the better. The arm is able to become a separate being similiar to the armless rest of the body, which means that both the good and evil had an almost even part in the full Kasen, so depite the full Kasens cruel nature there was some good inside her. Which reinforces the idea that there is a certain amout of "good" in every being, something that armless Kasen seems to believe in to at least some degree as she tries to correct others. If viewed from the perspecitve of Kant then her motivation to become and do good is enough to asign her a sense of moral and armless Kasen being a morally just being. She hasn't redeemed herself and given the things she's done in the past, she most likely never will be able to do so, but I think her feeling of regret and how hard she tries is at least worthy of being acknowledged. So far she also seems to be the only youkai inhabitant of gensokyo that made at least some progress in her attempts to change as a whole, if we compare her to for example the youkai at the temple.
>>48064530Sadly, he failed Kasen's screening process.She has to make sure the guy is worthy of Reimu, you see.
>>48065350>Kasen's screening processWh-What does that entail?
>>48065370Nothing all that special.She just checks their understanding of Reimu's duties, their attitude and willingness to work, their general character, their physical health, and their physical endurance. Y'know, typical stuff a mom cares about in their girl's partner.Most of them only fail the last test, though, for some reason.
>>48065739Well yeah, that's because the true gentleman will be the one that realises you're supposed to stop her after general character Reimu needs a total dumbass who wholeheartedly thinks she is the coolest thing in existence and supports everything she does.
>>48064940This
>>48064598Her first incident was her willingly going on simple little there and back trip to a clear cut route to hell. WaHH alternatively was her soul being banished to avicii (the worst lowest part of the afterlife) trapped with someone who wants nothing more than to harm anything that is near her.
>>48065739I failed at general character and now she won't let me go, help
>>48065778>Well yeah, that's because the true gentleman will be the one that realises you're supposed to stop her after general characterThat's the worst possible thing any of them could attempt, anon.>Reimu needs a total dumbass who wholeheartedly thinks she is the coolest thing in existence and supports everything she does.Marriage to a himbo would make her happiest, yes, but we're talking about what her mother thinks is best for her here. Her opinion on the ideal male for Reimu is a little different.
>>48065778>supports everything she does.Maybe her future husband should be in charge of budget and money making
>>48064940The issue really comes down to the fact that, before the arm takes over, it seems like the best traits of both of them shine through in the case of full Kasen. It comes down to Kasen being so afraid of the risk of going back to her old self that she ended up creating an entirely separate problem. The Arm will almost certainly end up unsealed again in the future, and since only a fragment of the blade was used, it may even happen faster than the first time. Now that the first betrayal has happened, it's not likely to just quietly be assimilated into Kasen again, either.The other issue is that everybody keeps saying shit like "Youkai are incapable of changing" in spite of the fact that literally the basic premise of the setting proves otherwise. Many of the named characters pretty clearly no longer attack humans, and even though it was out of necessity, the youkai of Gensokyo have largely become benign, coexisting entities relative to the humans (even if they can't allow the humans to know that and remain as youkai.) Even in the case of the Myouren Temple, Murasa seems like probably the worst example, as we have effectively confirmed kills in her backstory, while at present it seems like she doesn't outright harm anyone, and this is to say nothing of Byakuren, who has about as explicit of a pre-game character arc as you can get.All the same, she's a great character for discussion when it's not being dragged down by trolls.
>>48068563
>>48068570
>>48003752ZUN is allergic to character development
>>48003621I used to feel the same with Rinnosuke, until he came back but only to stay in the background while letting an infinitely less interesting character take over. Be glad Kasen won't have to deal with anything similiar.
>>48068395>The other issue is that everybody keeps saying shit like "Youkai are incapable of changing" in spite of the fact that literally the basic premise of the setting proves otherwise. Many of the named characters pretty clearly no longer attack humans, and even though it was out of necessity, the youkai of Gensokyo have largely become benign,I don’t know if I can agree with that, yeah the youkai clearly aren’t as bloodthirsty because if their circumstance, it’s not like they’ve gotten nicer or even feel kinship with humans. They still openly manipulate the humans through various scams and false information and do it pretty giddily a d as much as possible, but even then the dark monsters they really are shine through and it’s clear they are still the same soulless monsters they always were and if they ever stopped needing the villagers for their existence… well i dont think they’d just let them leave peacefully. Even Byakuren really ain’t much better than she used to be, AoCF even shows her real desires to just have people do all her work for her and to silence anyone that would dare disobey. Hell, if anything Kasens Arm being able to overwhelm “Good” Kasen only proves that the darkness will only override the good if push comes to shove, youkai cannot fight what they are. That’s why they got left behind in the Outside World, that which cannot adapt, perishes.
>>48069631>AoCFTaking those lines out of context is the biggest piece of Grimfag cope. Dreamselves are not the "true selves" of characters, and Byakuren's Dreamself more reveals just how desperate she is to keep her makeshift "family" together, rather than it being trying to have control and power for its own sake.As for the Arm taking over, Kasen doesn't appear to even bother to resist, she just kind of resigns herself to it even before the Arm makes her move. Admittedly, that creates its own problems, but it feels more like a plot contrivance than being in line with Kasen's usual character, since as other anons have acknowledged, ZUN would sooner commit Yuyuko than allow characters to grow and change. Even the Yorigamis, who had an arc in AoCF, are back to the usual not long afterwards.TL;DR: The way the series portrays Youkai, it's more a matter of ZUN being a hack than them being incapable of changing themselves.
>>48069648Touhou is ultimately working on Sazae/Simpsons time, if characters develop then they're back to normal at the start of the next episode
>>48069648Except Doremy reveals that Byakuren and her dream self are very much alike because of Byakurens training, her dream self is just more honest. I don’t even think ZUN is a hack about the characters not changing because being constantly stuck in the same place as the same person is literally the theme of the whole series, Gensokyo is the opposite of the Outside World because it never changes, it’s never land for demons and gods.
>>48069648Dream Selves are fundamentally the embodiment of a character's unrestrained desires, not limited by reason or higher morality.While it's unfair to say that they're a complete representation of a character, the desires they express are fundamentally genuine and true to their character, and give further insight into their personality as a whole.Dream Selves outright cannot lie from what we see of them.Marisa's waking self understands that it's unfair to resent Reimu, but she does feel deeply insecure about Reimu being better than her; Miko's waking self is diplomatic and willing to work with others towards her goals while her Dream Self shows that she does hold strong disgust towards the poor (or maybe just the spiritually poor (like youkai), since the Yorigami sisters rank at the top in both ways); and Byakuren really does wish she could coast through life without having to do anything, but understands that she needs to be sensible about it and do (some) actual work to keep her life going (and Jo'on learning this from Byakuren actually makes her like her more and informs Jo'on's "development" as she realizes that she can get away with a lot more shit by being smart about her targets.); and Kasen's waking self is constantly denying her own desires and really doesn't trust Yukari at all.Dream Selves actually did a lot to give further depth to the characters and I wish we got to see more of them.
>>48070980>Kasen's waking self is constantly denying her own desiresI mean that's kind of a hermits whole deal
>>48073233Sure, but it's a little different for Kasen, given her inherent conflict with herself (and her wicked side outright being stronger) that characters like Miko don't share. She's also kind of a lousy hermit, and seems to be half-assing it most of the time, which presumably reflects in her Dream Self, too.Though I wonder how things work with regards to her arm. Does it have its own Dream Self, or is its psyche reflected in just the one entity and Kasen just dreams about being an oni-like oni all the time? I doubt we'll ever get an answer, but I'm still curious.
>>48070980Gotta love how Byakuren, Miko, and Kasens Dream selves are all coniving selfish monsters whose true desire it to crush all those that oppose them for their personal gain, only really putting on a face of compassion for the sake of gaining power. And Dream Marisa is just salty Reimus got plot armor.
Dream Self Posters prove again the extent of their paranoia.
>>48075167damn yeah look at this conniving monster trying to crush all those before her
impromptu kasen
>>48076459(the missing ball was obscured by something my friends drew)
