>maintains an extremely flat trajectory for a handgun round, dropping only 4" at 100yds>penetrates better than most handgun rounds>little felt recoil, can easily be shot one-handedWhy the FUCK isn't this round more popular when it's essentially a superior 9mm? Is it just because it's Russian?
>>61455261And everything it does 5.7 does better, your point is?
>>61455261They wanted a compact and cheap direct blowback pistol as the official sidearm and only the Makarov cartridge was weak enough to make it work.
>>614553055.7 is not stronger than 7.62 out of a pistol length barrel, please stop
>>61455319>strongerThere is no such parameter.
>>61455391If the bad guy dies quickly or slowly bleeds to death after emptying an entire mag of the cartridge into him. Pistol cartridges were made to be bigger than rifle cartridges for a reason
>>61455261It’s the steel case. Nobody wants to carry steel cased ammo.
7.62 tok is actually more expensive than 5.7
>>61455402Now it is yeah but it use to be cheap as dirt when it was still "surplus".
>>61455261>Why the FUCK isn't this round more popular when it's essentially a superior 9mmAnd that's because it's the suped up version of the cartridge that the watered down original round 9mm was based off of. It's funny that the better version of 7.63 Mauser isn't more popular, yet the lower powered and blown out version of it has become a standard. Funny how that works.
>>61455401That is actually a good point>>61455402No shit it is more expensive, no firearm uses it anymore. It is dying if not already dead. This is like boasting that 5.7 is cheaper than Krag
>>61455402Can I make 5.7 at home with 223 brass I found at the range like Tok?
>>61455434do you actually do that or did you just hear you could do it online?
>>61455396That is not called "stronger".
>>61455281>yeah it's better than 9mm but who caresIe Retard>>61455305No it doesn't, 5.7 has been getting exposed hard, stop taking vidja as fact
>>61455261Behold what could have been, 12.5 lbs of glorious blowback operated 600rpm beltfeed:
>>61455513What is the point? Just use PPsh.
>>61455513Neat
>>61455401The only right answer.
>>61455261Because 7.5 FK is a modern upgraded version of it
>>61455261All pistol rounds suck. Low recoil, price, and market support are more important. Capacity is perceived to be more important as well. To break 9mm's hold on the market, you're gonna need something that's not just better(see 30 super carry) but significantly better. Probably not coming until a technological breakthrough happens. Which thanks to gun control, is probably not coming for a while as it's legally prohibitive for the intelligent people across the world to experiment with this stuff.M4s on Mars, bitch.
>>61455261>penetrates better>pistolAnon, you want your pistol round to expend it's energy INSIDE of the target.Too much penetration is a bad thing.>but muh armorGet a rifle.
>>61455575>but muh armor>Get a rifle.If you had a rifle you wouldn't be using a pistol instead of it
>>61455581They're used for different things, retard. If you genuinely worry about meeting armor 9mm can't defeat while carrying a pistol, don't just bring a pistol.
>>61455527He was told to make a LMG so he did, being a guy who normally make guns for aircraft he took the 'light' part as far as he could. It is far more accurate than a ppsh and the troops can carry alot more ammo. It's like saying you shouldn't bother with the M-60 just use a M-14.
>>61455281>more expensive than 9mm>9mm is significantly cheaperWhy do you think that is, shithead?Did they use more copper in 7.62 Tokarev casings? did they sprinkle in gold flakes in with the powder? Did they add diamonds into the bullet for good luck?Kill yourself retard
>>61455527It actually weights less than a loaded PPsh and has half the number of parts.
>>61455319The 7.62x25 is going to have more than 100 ft.lbs of energy vs even the most stout 5.7 rounds. The problem is If the hollow points they make for the Tokarev are consistent, because if the hollow point designs they have aren't well thought out they can have lack luster performance due to not peddling out.The only thing the 5.7 has in this regard is the bullet being well design gives it an extremely high consistency in dumping all of its Ke. This is because the rounds are designed to tumble inside of its target.
>>61455597I, too consult my crystal globe before operating operationally
>>61455261Bottle neck pistol cartridges have always been underrated by the commercial market, but once you fire one, feel no recoil, and see a magnum blast come out your pistol. It's no longer a debate. Then add in that bottle neck cartridges feed almost 100% reliably.
>>61455396ok so 9mm is better then lmao
>>61455604>this thing is wildly unpopular and even the country that invented it dropped it in favor of an even worse 9mm>every other bottlenecked pistol cartridge also got dropped in favor of 9mm>n-no evolution is a lie, it's just a coincidence that this concept has been tried dozens of times and abandoned every time!>everyone keeps going to 9mm for no reason you have to believe me!
>>61455261What i wouldn't give for a C96 lookalike pistol/pcc made from modern materials in 7.62x25, 20-30rd detachable mags
>>61456274Another 6mm of case length versus the Parabellum is a lot of extra powder though to make up for that, much more significant than the extra 3 you get from the puny 5.7. 7.62 Tokarev is essentially .32 if it built for handcannon revolvers in the way that .357 mag was for 9mm
>>61456266Bottleneck pistol cartridges are 100% based.
>>61456266This is what drew me towards 5.7, It is just so nice being capable of making 50 yard shots reliably out of a pistol.
I wish there was a Glock in 7.62 Tok. I don't even mean from Glock, one of the ripoff Gen 3 makers should make one. I'd buy the shit of one, with plenty of mags to boot.I also want an AR upper in it.
>>61456387>he doesn't know of 9x25 Dillon
>>61455446Just read it once online, I have never reloaded before. I cant even own guns in my country.
>>61456292Everyone keeps 9mm because it’s cheap and prevalent. Be honest. That’s literally it.
>>614567077.62x25 was cheap and prevalent.It wasn't an accident that 9mm killed literally all the bottleneck cartridges, repeatedly, and did so when it was not a widely accepted standard, was not cheap and prevalent or widely available. 9mm cemented its dominance before any of the factors you claim to be the reason for its success existed.
>>61455391Energy x diameter
>>61455311and they had a shit ton of equipment already for 7.62Kind of the same reason the new 5.45 ended up being ... x39
>>61455261there's like two guns chambered in itI really need a doublestack variant
>>61455547uses a 10mm boltface
>>614554237.63 mauser is totally unrelated to 9x19
>>61457022>Thiseven when tokarevs were 2hundy and the rounds were cheap as shit I still didn't buy in
>>61457066Russia made one at some point but it's probably trashwhat's the COAL again? it's 5mm longer than all other common pistol cartridges, so you need an entire new frame size for it
>>61457022>>61457066There are plenty of 14+1 double stack 7.62x25 pistols, unfortunately you can't get them because you don't have Juche. Double checked.
90% of these are just tokarev clones or the TT pistol itself, the CZ-52 which is a tokarev with Czech characteristics, or the Zastava which is just a tokarev with serbian characteristicsthe QX-04 is a Chinese doublestack pistol chambered in Tok primarily for the international market according to this wikipedia page, somebody go ask Canada general if it's any goodthe OTs-27 Berdysh is a doublestack russian hangdun that nobody has ever seen>>61457108and of course there's thatvery sad stuff
>>61457130The number of /k/ommandos who would enthusiastically join the KPLA in exchange for meme equipment and one of Kim Yo-jong's dirty socks is both alarming and amusing.
>>61457130>the CZ-52 which is a tokarev with Czech characteristicsThat's as much a tok as vz. 58 is an AK.
>>61457196yeah that's what I said
is it safe to shoot some mystery ammo I found out of my cz52?
>>61455547/thread.>>61457034>uses a 10mm boltfaceAnd?
>>61457269>everyone nowadays is buying a $2,000 IFG pistolDoubt
>>61457022IIRC Norinco made a double stack one for the US market back in the 80s/90s. 213A but I think it was only in 9mm.Vietnam makes one for their military in 7.62.There are some handmade designs in the Kyler Pass too but you get what you pay for.
>>61457288Definitely not but I'm also not making threads whining about why no one's buying my favorite hipster cartridge.
>>61457268You won't explode, but your gun might.
>>61457457I wouldn't call a historical, century-old cartridge "hipster". And I think it is fair to complain especially now when 5.7 is becoming very popular, filling the same exact niche the Tokarev perfected in the 1930s despite being an inferior cartridge for pistols in almost every single way to it
>>61455281>and it's significantly more expensive than 9mmFor you americans maybe.https://g4cgunstore.com/product-category/ammunition/?filter_caliber=7-62-x-25-mm
>>61455261It was German originally. As with most modern small arms. In fact the early German ones are what led to the 9x19 Luger. The Russian one survived into mass production in the current era and is the best choice overall logistically, but there was a interim German design that was slightly more powerful.
>>61455466How much better is it? The answer is "not enough to displace the massive headstart 9mm had".
>>614575065.7 is thinner, which means very thin pistols and very high capacity, which is nice
>>61457562NTA, but it only gets down to 9mm FMJ prices in the US right now when you buy the largest bulk pack. 9mm FMJ is running right at or near 15-20cpr in the US online right now, even for 50 rd boxes.
>>61455261>Is it just because it's Russian?It's a ++P version of a German cartridge, why can't Russians acknowledge when they copy something
>>61457640More ammo for an extremely fast but also very small round
>>61457655We pay 36cpr for cheap 9mm so tokarev is significantly cheaper. Unfortunately no one makes any guns for tokarev due to our gay magazine laws that only allow pistol magazines to have more than 5 rounds so our entire gun culture is based around platforms that repurpose 'pistol magazines'.
>>61457196>checks LARPing as frogsyeah yeah it's totally different and you invented it, sure
>>61455261it's too long for a comfortable grip containing the magazine and shooting a bit flatter at distances you wouldn't use your pistol at anyway doesn't make up for that. there are many more pistols in use than SMGs so being a bit better SMG round doesn't matter.
>>61456037>100 ft/lbs of energy>any real difference I’m not the biggest 5.7 fan, but you’ve just confirmed you’re a noguns who looks at all this like it’s a video game.
>>61455261long
>>61455261This is the ideal SMG round, and I don't care who knows it. Fuck 5.7
>>61455261Half a centimeter longer.
It was designed as a combat round at a time when a semi automatic pistol was still relevant in close combat. It was replaced because the recoil was excessive, required a far heavier gun, effected shot placement of the majority of shooters and was no longer relevant in close combat. The makarov was light, handy and could be shot accurately with one hand.When you're looking at the merit of rounds, you're looking for performance, critical capacity. Topkarev isn't efficient compared to other rounds that have the same capacity.From a historical perspective guns that have critical capacity (like the 50 browning) stay relevant because while inefficient the critical capacity is often applicable to a different role. This in no way makes them "good", it makes them surplus.
>>61457050It's an uncle. 7.63×25mm Mauser and 7.65×21mm Parabellum are brothers.7.62×25mm Tokarev and 9×19mm Parabellum are cousinsAll come from grandpa 7.65×25mm Borchardt.
>>614553055.7 doesn't have the bullet mass to penetrate much. It consistently fails to penetrate the minimum FBI standard of 12", and deflects heavily through barriers like car doors, windshields, etc. It's nor an acceptable duty round, never will be. It's a specialty round, only good at the one thing it was designed for and quite frankly other rounds do it better, like 7.62 tok or just 9mm with a copper bullet.I find it pretty funny that they developed 9x25 Dillon from scratch or based off the .357sig, and basically 9x25 Dillon ended up being very similar to what already existed, 7.62 Tok. Everyone always asks and always will ask why it faded from use, it was fucking great. I prefer 10mm though, would only get a gun in Tok if there was still cheap surplus and plenty of all steel guns available to shoot it. Now it's a bit too rare.
>>61455574>you're gonna need something that's not just better(see 30 super carry)I would even argue it’s not better
>>61460330Penetration is overrated. Punching holes in a person doesn't kill them quickly. Deflection inside them, tumbling, yawing, fragmenting, kills them.
>>61455604>Did they use more copper in 7.62 Tokarev casings?First, casings use brass not copper you fucking retarded noguns. Second, yes they actually do use more material. It’s a longer case (31%) with nearly identical base diameters.You don’t even own a 7.62x25
>>61456707Or…after creating the 7.62x25 borchardt and the 7.63x25 Mauser, the 9x19 was made because it was better. Pistols and pistol rounds weren’t popular or cheap in 1905. It beat other bottlenecks that were the parent case for 9x19. There were two world wars, dozens of other conflicts, and 120 years of development and pretty much everyone settled on 9x19 or similar (ie not bottleneck). Soviets dropped 7.62x25 for 9x18 even. There’s only so much power and performance you can squeeze into a pistol that’s comfortable to shoot and carry. Another thing, Browning designed multiple pistol rounds (excluding .45 ACP because that was made to match desired army specs) in the early 1900s. His .38 ACP basically matches 9x19. Rather than make a new round for the hi power he just rolled with 9x19. To me that says the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. I’ll admit I’d say .40 was invented 120 years ago everything i said would also apply, but it wasn’t.
>>61459781>It was designed as a combat round at a time when a semi automatic pistol was still relevant in close combat.Was it? In 1930 pretty much everyone has SMGs. Soldiers with rifles weren’t clearing houses with pistols in WWII. If you mean outside of a military use, pistols for close combat are still relevant today. >It was replaced because the recoil was excessiveAbsolutely not. The muzzle blast is significant isn’t but recoil is not at all.
>>61455305the amount of noguns in this post is outstanding go back to the mtf trans twitch streamer subr*ddit you came from
>>614603305.7 is only good for high-capacity automatic PDWs like the P90. Using it for other things is not a good idea at all. It qill never be a good pistol or semi-auto cartridge versus its competitors, physics don't work like that
>>61456727>>614612469mm was latched onto because the German Army arbitrarily decided to use it. It was the biggest bore size you could get in the standard Luger, just by necking up the 7.62Luger cartridge. DWM didn't want to redesign the entire gun, it's why they later dropped out of the American pistol trials because it was too much work to redesign a Luger in .45ACP. Then they made the most pistols out of anyone, so it ended up being cheaper and widely spread over all of Europe because of WW1.There was no real science to the adoption or its spread. The .45ACP at least had some fairly poorly done science behind its adoption. The 9mm Luger was just Krautism. It's how the 7mm Mauser became the 8mm Mauser, too. Just an arbitrary desire for a larger projectile.
>>61461497The point is around 1900 the strongest mainstream cartridges were direct-blowback-operated glorified .25ACP and .32 ACPs. Then the Luger design came out with a fucking 9mm design that worked. It was the earliest "strong" cartridge so it won out. Tokarev came out very late and .45 got popular because literally every pistol onward copied the reliable 1911 system for their autoloading pistols. 7.62 was 30 years too late to compete and it was too overpowered to slow down the bolt in simple blowbacks.
>>61461497Again, this is utter nonsense. 7.63 Mauser was a thing, and it died.>huh? What do you mean the Germans had a cartridge literally interchangeable with a 7.62x25??almost like all the bullshit you're spewing is a lie.>Then they made the most pistols out of anyone, so it ended up being cheaper and widely spread over all of Europe because of WW1.No, it didn't. It's prevalence didn't even really begin until well after WW2.>>61461557The point is utter nonsense.>7.62 was 30 years too late to competeThe Russians didn't adopt 9x19 you know. Yet they still went to a 9mm projectile. They spent a whole bunch of money making the Tokarev and 7.62x25, and then dropped it. It's crazy that this same process happened multiple times in multiple places and all with the same end result of a 9mm cartridge getting adopted. It's not like the imaginary flood of 9mm guns and ammo from Germany was the reason the Russians adopted a completely different 9mm cartridge you know.And yet you'll just hand wave and say everyone everywhere just did this entirely arbitrarily and it was totally random that everyone wound up with the same conclusion.
>>61461700>and then dropped itBecause they realized putting 7.62x25 in a PPK just made it explode in your face. You didn't even read the rest of my comment before coming to a conclusion>and yet you'll just hand wave and say everyone everywhere just did this entirely arbitrarily and it was totally random that everyone wound up with the same conclusion.I am not that anon. This is my first reply to you
>>61461731>Because they realized putting 7.62x25 in a PPK just made it explode in your face. And why did they need to do that?Because 9mm is so much better than 7.62 that a weak 9x18 is sufficient to replace it.
>>61461731>>61461747But to actually address your post>too lateIs nonsense since 9x18 came later. It's impossible to take your post seriously as a result of this glaring retardation.
>>61455261I would do unholy things for a gas delayed blowback double stack double feed Tok.
>>61461700Because the C96 Mauser never got any big arms contracts. It was a civilian market gun and when adopted in number by the Germany Army had to be rechambered in 9mm. After WW1 it was already becoming extremely widely spread via the German 9mm Bergman and Haenel SMGs that were sold in huge numbers all over or directly cloned. Which were designed to take the standard German military pistol cartridge because it was the standard German military pistol cartridge. Not because it was the best in the world. In the same time guns like the Kiraly were using more powerful special purpose SMG cartridges when built from the ground up - indicating that 9mm wasn't seen as the best, but what was most available and affordable. And German war surplus flooded markets in countries like Belgium, or Britain, making 9mm really accessible and cheap.
>91 postsgrimhttps://youtu.be/vLCsQkEL9eQ
>>61459463Considering 5.7x28 is putting out all of 250 ft lbs from a pistol, yes. That's a big difference. 2" of barrel doesn't offer "any real difference" in a rifle, but that's a big step up from a snub nose revolver.Energy is important. It dictates how much effect it has on the intended target. That's just physics.
>>61461860what's the benefit of .22TCM over 5.7x28? You lose out on the capacity and format advantage (long, skinny grips are good for my hands) and in exchange gain... a handful of FPSI'm interested in .357 SIG to round out my bottlenecked pistol cartridge collection
>>61462493NTA. 22tcm is both cheaper and easier to make than 5.7 (by virtue of its parent case, you simply cut the .223 brass short in production, or make it yourself from old 300 blk 300 hamr and .223 brass), more energetic, shorter OAL, and passes the ballistic threshold for penetrating level iii pistol armor from a 5" barrel. You can also still fit 15-22 rounds in a full size double stack mag. In severe ballistic autism research, speed alone is not the only metric that is critical in penetration; there is a minimum bullet weight and bore size that must also be met to penetrate any specified armor under any specified ballistic constraint. For 22tcm and 5.7, the minimum constraint is for a .22 is a 35-40gr bullet traveling just over 2000 fps to defeat level iii, regardless of BC and bullet OAL that is a base requirement (until you hit .224 and .223 rem bullet lengths and weights which are not attainable in a short pistol OAL cartridge).
>>61462526>simpler to makenot an argument>shorter OALa negative>more energeticnot by much
>>61462526Oh and I forgot to mention, because of that extra 200 fps in 22tcm with a 10gr heavier bullet, it easily and readily penetrates level iii from a 5" 1911 or Glock pistol at 7 yards. In long barrels it is more difficult to stabilize but there are people who have made fully functioning and reliable 16" AR15s in 22tcm with some autism, it's online if you search for how to di it yourself, at longer lengths the cartridge nears 3000fps with a 40gr.
>>61462538see >>61462543It is significantly more energetic, achieves more practical use in tests (pens iii everytime from a pistol), and fits in existing pistol cartridge OALs (meaning little to no modification of existing mags. ie it will fit in a 9mm Glock and 1911 mag). The only issue in ARs still is there isn't anyone making AR15 mags with 9mm OAL for it yet commercially, but there are people making and selling them online.
>>61456211>operatingGet a rifle.
>>61456266>and see a magnum blast come out your pistThat's a bad thing you retard
>>61457163Kah-PLAh!
My dream rifle would be an anachronistic Soviet M1 carbine chambered in 7.62x25 Tokarev. A gun designed to engage at further range than an SMG in a fairly effective pistol round.
>>61459351>it's too long for a comfortable grip containing the magazineI have a Tokarev and the grip fits my hand quite well. Granted I have twink hands.
>>61460330>9x25 Dillon is similar to 7.62 TokStop perpetuating this meme. 9x25 shoots a 90gr bullet at 1900 fps with a 5" barrel. 7.62 Tok does 1600 with 85gr. 9x25 also has access to much heavier bullets and massively more available projectiles.
>>61462785>9x25 & 7.62x25 are not similar!>now I will compare a round using modern powder to one using ancient Soviet powder!
>>61463147You can look up handload data right now. 85gr at 1650 is the max the round can do. It has significantly less case capacity at the same pressure. No powder is going to help it.
>>61463359Yes because one bullet is 9mm the other is 7.62mm, a slight difference but it would explain your gripe that there's a 5gr weight difference. Doesn't matter really. You'll probably blow up any gun designed to shoot 7.62tok if you load it too hot whereas 9x25dillon guns are designed for hot rounds that make your dick feel bigger.
>>61461497>9mm was latched onto because the German Army arbitrarily decided to use itThis only makes sense for why Germany and only Germany used it. Yes I agree they basically had to for WWI, but they had to rearm with new weapons for WWII. It’s not like they led the way with MP18s and Lugers. They could use a whole new caliber. What about the Brits? They had .455 webleys or whatever officers bought. They weren’t married to 9mm. Or the Spanish or South America?There have been lots of caliber changes by lots of militaries with complete weapon swaps. They could switch if it made sense to. Institutional inertia from WWI from one country (that lost) didn’t carry 9mm
>>61456819its 5.45x39.5 you retard
>>61461731>Because they realized putting 7.62x25 in a PPK just made it explode in your faceThey could have stuck with tokarevs or modified the PPK design (or god forbid come up with something original) if caliber was that important and 7.62x25 was that much better. Then again they only used their pistols to execute their countrymen so it’s not like caliber mattered at all.
>>61462538You’re retarded
>>61462643You’re dream gun is a worse .30 carbine?
>>61463147Post load data. Bet you won’t
>>61461497> It's how the 7mm Mauser became the 8mm MauserThe 7mm Mauser came after the M/88 (8mm Mauser case). And as for 9mm being adopted by NATO it largely had to do with the fact that at the end of WW2 most countries in western Europe were producing and using it officially (UK, W. Germany, Spain, Italy, and France) and this later grew to many more countries. The Mp18/28/38 also had an outsized role in the early development of SMG cartridges in western Europe. The UK and Germany using 9x19mm Luger alone ensured it had massive production and spread, through both British lend leases to other countries and arms from Germany directly after WW1, they were the production centers of Europe and Germany still is at this point.
>>61461489its great for punching holes in Jaffa body armor and it out ranges staff weapons.
>>61465108Are people seriously handloading hot ammo to shoot through Tokarevs? That sounds like the most retarded idea ever, those guns are old and from an era where they would never load a round beyond spec, or couldn't because powders weren't that great.Name one modern gun in Tok that can shoot hot loaded rounds. I'm actually interested. There are probably plenty in Dillon, but honestly I still prefer 10mm since it's more popular.
>>61456037>The problem is If the hollow points they make for the Tokarev are consistentAccording to Paul Harrel they don't seem to be very consistent which is a shame. meanwhile 9mm hollowpoints seem to expand more reliably. I still wish 7.62 tok would get more love its a great little round.
>>61460826>casings use brass not copperLet me tell you a little secret about brass...
>>61457130Theres also the chinese type-80 machinepistol in 7.62 tok. Its heavily inspired by the Mauser broomhandle, functionally almost a copy but not exactly.Its my unobtanium wish gun.
>>61465062German surplus and German SMG companies in the post-war period had a huge impact in spreading the cartridge around. Whomever wasn't just buying German SMGs was cloning them, outside of the French. Early British SMGs were literally just MP28 clones, for example. The Spanish had their 9mm Largo, that was from a time where Bergman was scrambling to try and sell his Mars pistols and figured having a bigger bullet than Mauser or Luger was the key to getting sales (it wasn't). I think you're underestimating the rapid spread of 9mm Luger post WW1 in the arms trade and massive surplus market. .32ACP got huge too and stuck around to this day, because the French bought millions of pot metal Ruby pistols. And .32ACP isn't really a 'good cartridge'. But having that many guns and cartridges in circulation brought a lot of institutional inertia.
>>61465515that's horrifying and you should consider suicideI've never had such an immediate and visceral negative reaction to a real life gun before
>>61465203The original 8mm Mauser and the '98 8mm Mauser are basically different cartridges. A gun designed for the original 8mm Mauser can only barely withstand shooting the new 8mm Mauser. The name is misleading. The bullets are not the same diameter and their performance is totally different. Swapping to the then current Mauser designed 7mm cartridge would have been the same work as using the new German government preferred 8mm cartridge because both require effectively rebarreling the gun, if converting old models, and creating new tooling for new guns.
>>61465642The M/88 case is the parent case for the 8 Mauser. It was improved to become the 8 Mauser, but it is functionally the same design. The original is called the M/88 to separate it from the 8 Mauser so people don't mix up the different pressure loads. And most countries were using much larger bores before the 7 Mauser came about, Germany selected 8 Mauser because it already had all the machining to mass produce the M/88, which could be easily converted to produce 8mm Mauser rounds and rifles, more so than retooling for the 7 Mauser.
>>61465614ah cmon its got its own charm
>>61465515>>61465670Fuck you *Broomhandles you're PPK*
>>61465665"Easily" is a stretch. The rifling is different, but bullet diameter changed by a fairly significant amount, being larger, the chamber and throat had to be totally redesigned. Other than having the same case, as you mentioned, the cartridges are basically completely different. Shooting s-Patrone out of a G88 puts you at genuine risk of barrel bursting if you're unlucky or do it too often. Converting G88s to s-Patrone was an involved process that basically called for rebarrelling the gun entirely. Some were larger, but 7mm Mauser was very cutting edge and was basically considered a perfect cartridge by those like the US or Spain and Latin America. And many were smaller, 6.5 mm cartridges were at least as popular. Holding to 8mm really was almost totally arbitrary by the German government. The original M/88 cartridge got its diameter from the Lebel as the Germans basically decided to make 'the 8mm Lebel but good' initially. And I'm fairly sure that 8mm was selected in France because it was the smallest experimental black powder rifles had gotten before Powder B was developed, and they rushed it.
>>61465740No it's not a stretch, for a brass cartridge with nearly identical dimensions, you literally only need to slightly tweak the brass presses to leave more material on the case, and for the boring machines and bullet presses only minor tweaks again, finally for the rifles themselves (the most difficult tweak) you need to set the milling machines to produce a a new bolt design (which was needed anyway for the 7mm Mauser).
>>61465515>4 position safety when things get heavy you set it to 11
>>61460816>Deflection inside them, tumbling, yawing, fragmenting, kills them.No, retard. Hitting the CNS kills them.
>>61455305
>>61466125Unless you're aiming for headshots, you aren't doing that. Instead, making them bleed is the quickest way to kill someone. And that is done through deflection and fragmentation within a target.
>>61460826Someone hasn't played runescape...
>>61465610> Whomever wasn't just buying German SMGs was cloning them, outside of the French. Early British SMGs were literally just MP28 clones, for example.If you’re cloning them and want a new caliber, it’s not that hard to swap. It’s rebarrelling, a new bolt face (possibly heavier bolt too), and a heavier recoil spring. After the MP28 we saw the Sten, the Lanchester, Beretta model 38, Suomi, and the Owen. The sterling was post war but the same time frame. Why did all of them stick with 9mm?It was technically post war but the Finns copied the PPS43 and chambered it in 9mm. They were most likely to be attacked by the Soviets, were 5 years removed from the winter war, and had a much higher chance of capturing 7.62x25 off the Soviets than getting outside supplies of 9mm. You can’t tell me it’s that much of an inferior round if they decided to switch. At best you can say it’s a marginal difference so it’s not worth the effort to change, which is what I originally said.
>>61465431> Are people seriously handloading hot ammo to shoot through Tokarevs?I sure hope not but that’s why I asked. There’s no way you can load 7.62x25 fast enough to equal 9x25 Dillon. You’ll rupture cases or pop primers. And like you said eventually it’s going to ruin the gun
>>61455261if this cartridge was more popular, I bet it would have some nasty JHP ammothe velocity seems like it allow for easy expansion
>>61455261>maintains an extremely flat trajectory for a handgun roundEntirely meaningless, you're not supposed to shoot handgun rounds at 100+ yd>penetrates better than most handgun roundsWhich means it still penetrates like shit. It won't defeat IIIA out of a handgun, only out of a PCC.>little felt recoilLike just about every other service handgun round.
>>61468078> It won't defeat IIIA out of a handgun,To be fair it depends on the bullet. Surplus ammo that has a bi metal steel jacket will. I’ve shot through IIIA with a 9mm using 65gr Lehigh XD’s. If you had a similar bullet (or a fort Scott solid copper) in 7.62x25 you could do it too. Lehigh has a .312” 75gr xtreme defender, a .311” 50gr xtreme cavitator and a .308” 85gr xtreme cavitator. I’ve never found load data for them in 7.62x25 but there’s no reason those shouldn’t pen IIIA also. Especially the 50gr.
>>61465670please die
>>61455261>Why the FUCK isn't this round more popular when it's essentially a superior 9mm?It's long as fuck. It needs a frame longer than even a 10mm or 45. Also, 7.5 FK is better at everything you would want 7.62 tok before. There's no reason to use it in the modern day.
>>614694857.5 FK is ridiculously fuckhuge and requires similarly ridiculously fuckhuge pistols, 7.62 Tok requires a frame only slightly longer in grip than ye standard doublestack wonder 9
>>61455261I had a cz52 it was pimp as fuck with the tiny roller-locks. Based design. Sadly it was single stack. I would love a double-stack modern 762x25
>>61469554there's a handful but none are being imported into the US
>>614695087.62x25 has a longer max OAL. 7.5 is smaller in diameter than .45 ACP. 7.5 is ridiculous because of the price but don’t act like it’s impossible to make it work in a normal sized pistol.
>>61469599I guess I haven't held the Field Pistol, sure, but I think it's the same width as the PSD
>>61469508>7.5 FK is ridiculously fuckhugeIt has the same OAL as 7.62 tok (actually slightly shorter) and has dramatically higher performance, because it's using 10mm as a parent case and has drastically higher case capacity as a result. 7.62 tok requires a frame longer than a 10mm frame, so you might as well use something 10mm based, like 7.5FK, or 9x25 Dillion.
>>61470036this is the same argument for .22 TCM over 5.7
>>61469609I haven’t either and next to no one has because it’s rare and expensive. But both 7.62 tok and 7.5 can fit in double stack 1911 sized guns. Not exact dimensions maybe but very similar
>>614700457.62 Tok but in a weird long hi power that's got a half a centimeter longer grip front to back
>>61470039.22 TCM is a better .22 caliber pistol round than 5.7 and .22 TCM isn't even very optimally designed.
>>61465614Faggot
>>61470176I ask myself why tcm and .17hmr arent common in pistols often.
>>61455305Literal varmint round.
>>61470331.17 hmr is rimfire and all bullets are for very rapid expansion. I love it for p dogs but I wouldn’t trust penetration against a human.
lots of esl samefagging here
>>61470331Because they weren't designed alongside a gun featured in Stargate.
>>61457130Norinco NP762, a Sig 226 clone in 7,62 Tokarev. Available on some European markets, e.g. Czechia.I don't think Tok is all that great in pistols, but it's a pretty sweet SMG cartridge, better than 9 Luger in that role desu.
>>61457022Technically wrong but effectively correct.The Tokarev is the best handgun for this caliber. You can get them for fairly cheap, but it doesn't matter. If there were more platforms it could come back, but not likely will that happen unfortunately.Make custom Glocks or something and maybe it can come back.
>>61455527It's easier to survive an ambush or battle
>>61462493>what's the benefit of .22TCM over 5.7x28advantages all across the boardNot just the velocity/energy but the grips for .22tcm are actually better for a human hand than 5.7, I have large hands and have handled both. .357 sig is a fantastic bottlnecked magnum cartridge but 5.7 is just trash, you use it if you own a P90 and that's about it.
>>61478477which guns have you used in 5.7? The Ruger and the S&W are trash
>>61460816>Punching holes in a person doesn't kill them quicklyNo but it mortally wounds and forces them to instantly retreat to their medic or die
You tards still don't understand 5.7. Unlike bottleneck pistol cartridges, it has a very long and narrow case that allows for far greater capacity and longer bullets with a superior ballistic coefficient that allow the guns to have a much further effective range. 5.7 has less drop than 10mm at 200 yards. It's truly mini 5.56 and not a shitty bottlenecked short and fat pistol cartridge
>>61481578Short, fat cases allow higher BC bullets (with the same OAL). 5.7 could have used a much higher BC bullet if it was short and fat like .45 or 10mm but with the same 1.8" OAL.
>>61481612They tried that with 224 Boz originally which was 10mm necked down to fit a 223 bullet and was shooting 50 grain bullets out of 5 inch barrels at 2500 fps but the throat erosion was so bad that they decided it wasn't worth having it so they went to a 9mm case as the base because it also made converting existing guns easier (and that's basically 22 TCM which has little short and fat shitty cartridges)
>>61481578Mini 5.56 is the .22lr and we call it a weak piece of shit for the same reason we call 5.7 a weak piece of shit. It goes super duper fast because it is a tiny pointy varmint round being propelled by a million grains of powder. It's a full-auto PDW cartridge and unlike 7.62 will never be a good pistol cartridge>200 yardsWho cares? That is such a waste when for that tradeoff you could be making the bullet fatter instead
>>61470429People are varmints
>>61481612Are you a fucking retard or what?
>>61456737From which school of fuddology did you graduate?
>>614815785.7 even in the class of cartridge it occupies is pretty weak.
>>61456707You have it backwards. 9mm is cheap and prevalent because everyone uses it.
>>61481684Pistol use for 7.62x25 was a secondary to russians wanting a new cartridge for a copy of the soumi 7.65 variant. The caliber is designed off both 7.65 and 7.62 maus specifically for submachine guns.
>>61481578>5.7 has less drop than 10mm at 200 yards.Who fucking cares? No one is taking 200 yard pistol shots. >yes I do you just suck at shooting Be honest anon, no you don’t. Neither does anyone here. >It's truly mini 5.56From a rifle/SBR barrel you faggot. Not from a pistol. You don’t even understand 5.7.
>>61483153He’s not wrong. If you have a wider but shorter case, you can have the same case capacity and seat a longer bullet to the same OAL. A longer bullet of the same design will have a higher BC. Now that higher BC honestly doesn't matter at pistol velocities and pistol ranges but that’s a different discussion.
The best .22 cartridge is relative to the pistol it can be chambered in.You want a 1.4" COAL and a fat case. It would take forever to form the cases through step sizing, but a 460 rowland necked down to 22 would be sending them very quickly.
>>61483153Are you? Which of these cases can fit a longer bullet?
>>61485127Practically speaking it depends on the gun.
test
>>61485127You are trying to tell me that you could put a better BC bullet in a .45 compared to 5.7 in the same OAL and then you start posting some short frame rifle cartridges.Let me ask you again, are you fucking retarded or what?
>>614603309x25 beats the shit out of tok.
>>61485989>9x25 beats the shit out of tokSo does .50 BMG. But does 9x25 shoot as accurately and as softly as 7.62x25 does?
>>61455261>>61465466Does this mean that OP is a faggot? You be the judge.
>>61486005Just use 9mm 90gr if you want low recoil. 7.62 tok doesn't have enough mass to do anything useful with its only somewhat high velocity, so you're shooting it to see big number on the box and that's it.
>>61485127The ShitPissCum case will never be good and no-one cares about it. No, not even if everyone watches black hawk down again.
>>61485558https://lehighdefense.com/452-diameter-250-grain-xtreme-penetrator-bullets-50-count.html>G1 BC: .208https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/handgun/5.7x28mm-40-gr-v-max-black#!/>G1 BC: .200This is even a .452 bullet you can load to .45 ACP magazine length. If you were to load them to 5.7 length you could use even higher BC bullets intended for .450 bushmaster.
>>614864237.62 is a perfectly adequate diameter considering how fast it goes and how little recoil it produces. If I want a fat slow bullet I will get .45 not an underloaded 9mm
>>61486447>7.62 is a perfectly adequate diameter considering how fast it goes and how little recoil it producesThats not the point. The bullet slows down as soon as it hits something and continues slowing down until it's barely moving faster than 9mm or .45 once it reaches the important parts. Velocity is not valuable in a pistol cartridge if it's not translating that velocity to effect on target.
>>61486425I'm not shilling any case, I'm just pointing out that shorter cases can fit longer bullets with the same OAL. Here's a .338 Lapua Magnum case on the left and 7mm-.300 Norma Magnum on the right. You can see how the shorter Norma case allows a longer bullet in the same OAL.
>>61486489>velocity is not valuable in a pistol cartridgeNewest fuddlore just dropped
>>61486519Not when it weighs 85 grains, doofus. You either need it to go REALLY fast or weigh a decent amount to translate that velocity to effect on target. See: .357 Mag.
>>61485558>You are trying to tell me that you could put a better BC bullet in a .45 compared to 5.7 in the same OALThat’s not what he said and you’re trying to wiggle out of being proved wrong
>>61484714>No one is taking 200 yard pistol shotsI amfor fun
>>61455401not all 7.62 tok is steel cased though>t. brass PPU ammo haver
>>61486489>it slows down when it hits somethingThat's the point.
>>61488220The problem is that there's several inches of "something" between the target's skin and the shit you need to actually have an impact on. 1700 fps is really nice, 1500 is decent, and even 1300 is probably beneficial, but an expanding 85gr bullet isn't doing 800 by the time it gets to the other side of the ribs.
>Tok goes too fast to penetrate wellBac/k/wards day.
>>61455466fort hood is a pretty solid data point there that says you're a fucking idiot.
>>61455261Based. Call it 30 mag and it’ll become popular>>614553055.7 has weak kinetic energy. Hot 30 magnum is in 357 range but has moderate recoil. The only flaw is there are few guns chambered in it
>>61492073>it's like a 357No it's not homo.
>>61492105PPU clocks over 1700fps which puts it at 550ftlbs which is 357 range. It’s also fast enough to reliably cause hydrostatic shockI want a 1911 in 30 magnum.
>>61492200No it doesn't. You literally do not understand terminal or internal ballistics, find a different hobby you can shit up with retarded opinions.
>>61492200>cause hydrostatic anything>under 2300fps
>>61492248>>61492266Look at what FMJ does to this gel https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JDSpEGgeFEI
>>61455261i stg i read this same thread and same comments three weeks ago. i think i’m having visions
>>61492614You can't see hydrostatic effects in gel.
>>61493002You are not this is just a rage bait thread.
>>61492614 thats not the gel the FBI uses for a reason...
>>61488440It's not too fast. It's actually not fast enough for the projectile weight.
>>61455261>Why the FUCK isn't this round more popular when it's essentially a superior 9mm?There's already a round that fits this niche, it's called .45 ACP.
>>61492266Different anon but I hate anyone who makes a blanket statement like this. It shows you don’t actually understand it. Hydrostatic shock is combination of velocity, weight, and diameter. 154gr 7.62x39 is less than 2300fps and is the same diameter as a .32 acp. Either caliber with FMJ will go clean through a body so does the .32 do as much damage with a lung shot? What about a 500gr .45-70 at blackpowder velocities? Is that no better than a .45 acp against a person? Better tell anyone that’s used a .470 nitro that they were no better off than with a .480 Ruger.
>>61493400t. revealed to me in a dream
